New Dragonknight ability and passive names still need changes

Ratzkifal · February 6

I've made a couple of feedback posts about this topic already but for greater visibility I'm making a separate thread.

The big offenders:

The Storm Voice - sounds like a Sorc ability to the uninitiated, and in the lore Dragonknights are not wielders of the Thu'um, so the name is a poor choice doubly so. It goes against your own lore, ZOS. You are making Gabrielle Benele look incompetent! Dragonknights are practitioners of an Akaviri/Tsaesci martial art that mimicks the abilities of dragons through clever use of more ordinary magic. They are not Tongues. They don't speak the dragon language when they are breathing fire, because you'd very easily be able to tell if they were.
Protect the Brood - Dragons, the theme that Dragonknights are trying to evoke despite not formally being connected to them, don't have children. Dragons are timeless divine creatures that do not reproduce. It's the reason all our little dragon pets are actually illusion imps casting the illusion of a tiny dragon. There is no brood to protect here, so if we are going with the dragon theme, why is it called that?

These two big offenders should not go live like this. This is not a subjective issue, or just a matter of taste. This is about the integrity of the lore of this game. The big offenders need changing, otherwise what was the point in renaming these passives in the first place? If names don't actually matter, what was the point in renaming Avalanche? You are misinforming your players about the game they are playing if this goes live. And I don't think we are meant to understand this as a retcon either.

It's stuff like this that makes some parts of the greater Elder Scrolls community look down on and ignore ESO's lore and consider it "not canon".

Please look into this.

Emeratis · February 6

I also want to see this but want to emphasize that "Protect the Brood" is especially egregious given how dragons in TES do not reproduce like dragons in other series and we are told and shown through various games and quests that dragons often are not very collaborative or supportive of one another and are not known for their loyalty. The nature of dov to other dov is usually to dominate, consume, or control.

Personofsecrets · February 6

What was even the reason for names to get messed around with? Truly a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" issue.

BardokRedSnow · February 6

As I said prior, the storm voice is accurate. Dragon Knight skills are derived from the akaviri use of what they call kiai, which is inspired by the thu'um. What all of them have in common is they're all tonal architecture. The Dragon Knight skills especially are inspired clearly and obviously by draconic power, which is literally a DK skill line name, so its not unusual that they'd name certain things after that which inspired the magic in the first place. Its like how Cyrodiilic Emperors were believed to have the voice because of Talos and Reman who were dragonborn prior to the amulet of kings ceremony of the lighting of the dragonfires, so now all are believed to. And in memory of that in tes V, imperials have "voice of the emperor" as their racial power. Nords have a quasi shout as their racial power also but neither are full fledged thu'ums.

There's an argument to be made then for the Storm Voice being a thing for dragon knights, especially since the thu'um has been a known thing far longer than the sorc class and its lightning association has been from eso and storm calling.

Newcomers might even get inspired to look into what the Thu'um and Voice is. And as a Nord Dragonknight main I love the thu'um association even if akaviri and dragon knight kiai magics are merely an echo of the real thing from dragons and nords.

Ratzkifal · February 6

Personofsecrets wrote: »

What was even the reason for names to get messed around with? Truly a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" issue.

For some passives it made sense after they got moved, since they were clearly referring to one skill line or the other.
But "Battle Roar" didn't need to get changed in my opinion. There are descriptions of the Akaviri Kiai, which is a Battleroar, essentially. So nothing about that was bad. The rest of the name changes were pretty much just change for the sake of change.

BardokRedSnow · February 6

There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.

Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.

Emeratis · February 6

I'm more on the fence on Storm's Voice passive and can see both sides of the argument. Absolutely cannot stand Protect the Brood though. I should have probably said that in my earlier post.

I think Storm's Voice is more a question of how comfortable are you with the open or closed nature of some of the flavor text. I feel it could be similar to if Templar got a passive called Meridia's Favor when they do not see the source of their character's power being from Meridia or that fitting their class fantasy. I think in this instance specifically it's fair to point out how it muddies the dragonknight vs dragonborn question.

Personofsecrets · February 6

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

What was even the reason for names to get messed around with? Truly a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" issue.

For some passives it made sense after they got moved, since they were clearly referring to one skill line or the other.
But "Battle Roar" didn't need to get changed in my opinion. There are descriptions of the Akaviri Kiai, which is a Battleroar, essentially. So nothing about that was bad. The rest of the name changes were pretty much just change for the sake of change.

Battle Roar's power level didn't need adjusting either. It's wild that someone would throw a dart at a board and mess with such a core part of the DK identity and play style. idgi.

BardokRedSnow · February 6

In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.

But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.

NPCs use some of the same abilities though.

Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".

In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.

YandereGirlfriend · February 6

Personofsecrets wrote: »

What was even the reason for names to get messed around with? Truly a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" issue.

Be honest, how often do you even look at the names of passives when you log in to play for a night?

I am all for getting the names to make sense from a flavor and lore perspective (it was my suggestion to re-name Avalanche to Landslide, BTW) but these things are far from game-breaking and they have absolutely zero implications for actual gameplay.

KingArthasMenethil · February 6

The classes really should be styles of combat coming from different groups. Dragonknights come from the Tsaesci Dragonguard with the already mentioned "kiai". The Dragonguard being Bodyguards/Dragon Hunters and then the thing the games don't really explore with Tsaesci magic. Since Tsaesci enchantments and magic ingame so far have been all blood related (TES4 sword with shivering isles and the Blood seal in TES5).

Personofsecrets · February 6

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

What was even the reason for names to get messed around with? Truly a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" issue.

Be honest, how often do you even look at the names of passives when you log in to play for a night?

I am all for getting the names to make sense from a flavor and lore perspective (it was my suggestion to re-name Avalanche to Landslide, BTW) but these things are far from game-breaking and they have absolutely zero implications for actual gameplay.

I didnt have to log in to know skill names like battle roar and helping hands. And I dont have to log in to know that I like those skill names just fine and wouldnt want them deleted.

And a change doesnt have to be game breaking to be bad. Thats why there has supposedly been a commitment to not making changes to crafting styles and costumes.

Naming conventions and animations should fall under the same flavor category with protection from change.

How is avalanche so different from landslide? It should be renamed mudslide because these changes stink.

BardokRedSnow · February 6

Personofsecrets wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

What was even the reason for names to get messed around with? Truly a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" issue.

Be honest, how often do you even look at the names of passives when you log in to play for a night?

I am all for getting the names to make sense from a flavor and lore perspective (it was my suggestion to re-name Avalanche to Landslide, BTW) but these things are far from game-breaking and they have absolutely zero implications for actual gameplay.

How is avalanche so different from landslide? It should be renamed mudslide because these changes stink.

Tough crowd lol

Ratzkifal · February 6

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

What was even the reason for names to get messed around with? Truly a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" issue.

Be honest, how often do you even look at the names of passives when you log in to play for a night?

I am all for getting the names to make sense from a flavor and lore perspective (it was my suggestion to re-name Avalanche to Landslide, BTW) but these things are far from game-breaking and they have absolutely zero implications for actual gameplay.

If they are that unimportant we can also just leave them blank.
No, they are important. If they are important enough to change, they are important enough to have them make sense. And if the purpose of adding all of that flavor text that Arcanist has is to get players more immersed, I expect that the passives to convey information that is actually in line with what we know to be true about the class.
The implication that all Dragonknights are wielders of the Voice comes with issues that I don't think we want to invite. We have one Dragonknight in the game who uses Thu'um and that's Grundwulf. He uses exactly one dragon shout and we know exactly whenever he does because the words are clearly audible. Same is true for the actual dragons, aside from Thurvokun on account of him being a reanimated skeleton.
If ESO ever decides to actually add dragonshouts to the game (for example as ultimates, so you can only ever have two max) then that is what I would expect them to look and sound like. Not like whatever DK is doing.
Retconning all DKs into being Tongues cheapens the Thu'um in my opinion.

BardokRedSnow · February 6

I hope they never do, I dont wanna see khajiit shouting. At least in the single player games I can ignore it and the "Im the dragonborn so i picked argonian to look like the dungeons n dragon dragonborn"

With DK its separated enough from actual thu'uming that its not a big deal. The names matter because a large enough population of tes fans care about lore even if its obviously loose mmo lore stuff and not gonna affect long time canon.

But again its still odd to split hairs over these things when the class itself is already so largely divorced from everything else for rule of cool, and I say that as a DK main that got won over by rule of cool.

None of this retconns DKs into being tongues, its just the name of a skill line, not something in text about the lore itself, its flavor for the player and nothing else or yea I'd be raising hell about elven and khajiiti tongues, especially non dragonborn ones since there's a strong chance thu'uming is a racial thing due to Kyne (imperials are just cyro nords largely with some akaviri blood mixed in here n there) rather than being something just anyone can do. Fans still debate and disagree over it but its something Ulfric Stormcloak himself stated for non dragonborn, its an ability Nords can learn. Only reason it got changed for Skyrim and dragonborn specifically is because of amulet of kings shenanigans with mankar camoran and the mehrunes razor, as well as the mysterium xarxes and so players can play any race as dragonborn as is the norm for tes titles.

Ratzkifal · February 6

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.

Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.

But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.

NPCs use some of the same abilities though.

Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".

In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.

I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".

I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.

BardokRedSnow · February 6

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.

Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.

But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.

NPCs use some of the same abilities though.

Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".

In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.

I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".

I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.

I dont believe Storm Voice imposes this on you anymore than "Draconic Power" does since Draconic Power is the thu'um.

Especially since Akaviri in nature, is also draconic. Dragons are the source of their inspiration for the abilities which is why its tonal architecture and so similar, even the thu'um being described as releasing a kiai same as those abilities.

Divorcing the draconic thu'uming aspect from the abilities is imo what made it so weird in the first place since dragons are more familiar to tamriel than akavir and their iteration of it even if they were here during some periods of time. Dragons were here and shaped its history far more. And Nords are also far more familiar with the thu'um itself. Makes sense that they'd name something similar to thu'uming, after the thu'um.

Its not literally the thu'um, its an echo, I think most people understand that.

Ratzkifal · February 6

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I hope they never do, I dont wanna see khajiit shouting. At least in the single player games I can ignore it and the "Im the dragonborn so i picked argonian to look like the dungeons n dragon dragonborn"

With DK its separated enough from actual thu'uming that its not a big deal. The names matter because a large enough population of tes fans care about lore even if its obviously loose mmo lore stuff and not gonna affect long time canon.

But again its still odd to split hairs over these things when the class itself is already so largely divorced from everything else for rule of cool, and I say that as a DK main that got won over by rule of cool.

None of this retconns DKs into being tongues, its just the name of a skill line, not something in text about the lore itself, its flavor for the player and nothing else or yea I'd be raising hell about elven and khajiiti tongues, especially non dragonborn ones since there's a strong chance thu'uming is a racial thing due to Kyne (imperials are just cyro nords largely with some akaviri blood mixed in here n there) rather than being something just anyone can do. Fans still debate and disagree over it but its something Ulfric Stormcloak himself stated for non dragonborn, its an ability Nords can learn. Only reason it got changed for Skyrim and dragonborn specifically is because of amulet of kings shenanigans with mankar camoran and the mehrunes razor, as well as the mysterium xarxes and so players can play any race as dragonborn as is the norm for tes titles.

Well any Khajiit dragonknight is now using dragonshouts if this change goes live. Just read what it says right there. The syllables of that ancient tongue live in the mouth of every dragonknight. And it's called "The Storm Voice", a synonym for the Thu'um. If you say "it's just flavor" and not to be taken literally, then I'll say that it sounds like a Sorcerer passive. So no, I'm taking it literally. The Aldmeri dominion having about one in seven of their troops using the ancient ways of the Nords to defeat the Nords in the battles of Cyrodiil - that's the result of this change.
Would make more sense if they were all still just Akaviri martial artists because everyone had to deal with the Empire and the Akaviri potentate to some extent.

If it's not odd enough to make changes to these names in the first place, or even suggest them in the survey, then it's not odd enough to "split hairs" over them, especially if we have first hand account of a in-universe scholar refuting claims that dragonknights are using the Thu'um.

ceruulean · February 6

Storm Voice is a terrible name change. It makes the DKs all Thu'um users. Not everyone has played Skyrim coming into ESO, and they'll be confused why it's not a sorcerer passive. How is knowing the Thu'um related to regaining a second wind after using an ult? Battle Roar makes more sense. Keep the name the same because it still has the same effect. Guide makers and players wont have to change their lexicon for no reason, or worse, a lore-breaking reason.

Ratzkifal · February 6

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.

Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.

But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.

NPCs use some of the same abilities though.

Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".

In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.

I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".

I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.

I dont believe Storm Voice imposes this on you anymore than "Draconic Power" does since Draconic Power is the thu'um.

Especially since Akaviri in nature, is also draconic. Dragons are the source of their inspiration for the abilities which is why its tonal architecture and so similar, even the thu'um being described as releasing a kiai same as those abilities.

Divorcing the draconic thu'uming aspect from the abilities is imo what made it so weird in the first place since dragons are more familiar to tamriel than akavir and their iteration of it even if they were here during some periods of time. Dragons were here and shaped its history far more. And Nords are also far more familiar with the thu'um itself. Makes sense that they'd name something similar to thu'uming, after the thu'um.

Its not literally the thu'um, its an echo, I think most people understand that.

Draconic Power is not the Thu'um. We can say the Thu'um is a draconic power but that doesn't automatically mean the reverse is also true. Draconic is an adjective that means "very harsh or severe" or "resembling a dragon". The name is obviously fitting because the Tsaesci are tied to the dragons and the dragonborn in some way that we don't really understand, other than it being some cultural and or religious significance. They even used it in Oblivion to refer to the Akaviri artifact called the "Draconian Madstone". So that alone doesn't tell us that the Akaviri are using the Thu'um.
If they mimick dragons, it would explain why they would worship Reman since being dragonborn makes him not just a copy but the real deal. That in my opinion is another clue pointing towards dragonknights not actually wielding the Thu'um but just imitating it.
Eitherway the word "draconic" fits whether it's Thu'um or not, because they still invoke the image of dragons.
"The Storm Voice" only fits if it actually is the Thu'um. It doesn't matter what the Nords would name something if Nords are not the only ones being dragonknights nor the inventors of dragonknights, since that on all accounts must have been a Tsaesci.
Calling it the Storm Voice despite the contradicting information would be like a Sorcerer passive saying "Daedra Worshipper: Your worship of Daedra grants you XYZ" when it was repeatedly stated multiple times that Sorcerer don't necessarily worship Daedra for them to be summoning them, and thusly summoning your sorc pets is not considered a Criminal Act. It just wouldn't make sense to contradict yourself there.

If we want to be extra ambiguous and leave the implication without confirming anything, it could be called Reman's Voice or Reman's Battle Shout because then it would be true regardless of whether it's referring to actual Thu'um or just imitation in reverence of true dragons like Reman. Culturally this would also work for Imperials, Nords and even the Dunmer since Vivec and Reman were fighting the Akaviri together according to the Pocket Guide and Countess Narvina Carvain's dialogue in Oblivion. I'd much prefer that.

Ratzkifal · February 11

While we wait to hear back from ZOS, which we hopefully will, I'll put out some suggestions:

The Storm Voice Reman's Battle Cry - The voice of Emperor Reman is still remembered by the dragonknights of today.

Protect the Brood Under my wing

I feel these would have the same vibe as what we got now but not get into conflict with the established lore surrounding dragonknights or dragons.

Also tagging @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Amy so they can hopefully guide the right eyes to find this thread. Thanks in advance!

BardokRedSnow · February 11

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.

Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.

But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.

NPCs use some of the same abilities though.

Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".

In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.

I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".

I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.

I dont believe Storm Voice imposes this on you anymore than "Draconic Power" does since Draconic Power is the thu'um.

Especially since Akaviri in nature, is also draconic. Dragons are the source of their inspiration for the abilities which is why its tonal architecture and so similar, even the thu'um being described as releasing a kiai same as those abilities.

Divorcing the draconic thu'uming aspect from the abilities is imo what made it so weird in the first place since dragons are more familiar to tamriel than akavir and their iteration of it even if they were here during some periods of time. Dragons were here and shaped its history far more. And Nords are also far more familiar with the thu'um itself. Makes sense that they'd name something similar to thu'uming, after the thu'um.

Its not literally the thu'um, its an echo, I think most people understand that.

Draconic Power is not the Thu'um.

Draconic is literally described as the language of dragons, and their language is power, pretty much everything dragons can do magically is associated with the thu'um, it is synonymous with the Thu'um and the Voice.

The rest of this is splitting hairs for the sake of it.

BardokRedSnow · February 11

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I hope they never do, I dont wanna see khajiit shouting. At least in the single player games I can ignore it and the "Im the dragonborn so i picked argonian to look like the dungeons n dragon dragonborn"

With DK its separated enough from actual thu'uming that its not a big deal. The names matter because a large enough population of tes fans care about lore even if its obviously loose mmo lore stuff and not gonna affect long time canon.

But again its still odd to split hairs over these things when the class itself is already so largely divorced from everything else for rule of cool, and I say that as a DK main that got won over by rule of cool.

None of this retconns DKs into being tongues, its just the name of a skill line, not something in text about the lore itself, its flavor for the player and nothing else or yea I'd be raising hell about elven and khajiiti tongues, especially non dragonborn ones since there's a strong chance thu'uming is a racial thing due to Kyne (imperials are just cyro nords largely with some akaviri blood mixed in here n there) rather than being something just anyone can do. Fans still debate and disagree over it but its something Ulfric Stormcloak himself stated for non dragonborn, its an ability Nords can learn. Only reason it got changed for Skyrim and dragonborn specifically is because of amulet of kings shenanigans with mankar camoran and the mehrunes razor, as well as the mysterium xarxes and so players can play any race as dragonborn as is the norm for tes titles.

Well any Khajiit dragonknight is now using dragonshouts if this change goes live. Just read what it says right there. The syllables of that ancient tongue live in the mouth of every dragonknight. And it's called "The Storm Voice", a synonym for the Thu'um. If you say "it's just flavor" and not to be taken literally, then I'll say that it sounds like a Sorcerer passive. So no, I'm taking it literally. The Aldmeri dominion having about one in seven of their troops using the ancient ways of the Nords to defeat the Nords in the battles of Cyrodiil - that's the result of this change.
Would make more sense if they were all still just Akaviri martial artists because everyone had to deal with the Empire and the Akaviri potentate to some extent.

If it's not odd enough to make changes to these names in the first place, or even suggest them in the survey, then it's not odd enough to "split hairs" over them, especially if we have first hand account of a in-universe scholar refuting claims that dragonknights are using the Thu'um.

"Live in", not spoken by. Its exactly what I described, its an echo, not the actual thu'um. You're taking it way too literally. You can say the same thing about dragon priests which only are empowered by the dragons and their power, that it lives in them, aside from the ones in solstheim that do know the thu'um.

BardokRedSnow · February 11

Unless our dragon knights start speaking the draconic language for their skills, or it explicitly states its the thu'um, its no more than flavor text to remind people where these akaviri arts derived from. It should have something to remind people of its origin, the dragons, and their power which it is inspired by, the thu'um. It was a lot more annoying that this power just existed with no reference to it at all when we had the real deal in TES V. It should stay.

If Zos adds more text to make that clearer fine, but its pretty evident its not actually the Voice.

Ratzkifal · February 11

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.

Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.

But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.

NPCs use some of the same abilities though.

Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".

In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.

I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".

I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.

I dont believe Storm Voice imposes this on you anymore than "Draconic Power" does since Draconic Power is the thu'um.

Especially since Akaviri in nature, is also draconic. Dragons are the source of their inspiration for the abilities which is why its tonal architecture and so similar, even the thu'um being described as releasing a kiai same as those abilities.

Divorcing the draconic thu'uming aspect from the abilities is imo what made it so weird in the first place since dragons are more familiar to tamriel than akavir and their iteration of it even if they were here during some periods of time. Dragons were here and shaped its history far more. And Nords are also far more familiar with the thu'um itself. Makes sense that they'd name something similar to thu'uming, after the thu'um.

Its not literally the thu'um, its an echo, I think most people understand that.

Draconic Power is not the Thu'um.

Draconic is literally described as the language of dragons, and their language is power, pretty much everything dragons can do magically is associated with the thu'um, it is synonymous with the Thu'um and the Voice.

The rest of this is splitting hairs for the sake of it.

I gave you the definition of the word "draconic". It's a real word with real meaning and it doesn't mean "language of the dragons". It's the same way German is a Germanic language but that does not make "Germanic" refer to the same thing as "German". The dragon language is a draconic language (because it is spoken by dragons) and it's called Dovahzul. "Draconic" does not mean Thu'um. The language of dragons is "draconic" in the same way that the illusion imps are draconic, because it has the appearance of/association with a dragon. In the same vein the Tsaesci dragonknights are draconic, but they are not dragons and they do not speak the dragon language as part of them being dragonknights. Words don't change meaning just because you want them to. You are just wrong about this.

Ratzkifal · February 11

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I hope they never do, I dont wanna see khajiit shouting. At least in the single player games I can ignore it and the "Im the dragonborn so i picked argonian to look like the dungeons n dragon dragonborn"

With DK its separated enough from actual thu'uming that its not a big deal. The names matter because a large enough population of tes fans care about lore even if its obviously loose mmo lore stuff and not gonna affect long time canon.

But again its still odd to split hairs over these things when the class itself is already so largely divorced from everything else for rule of cool, and I say that as a DK main that got won over by rule of cool.

None of this retconns DKs into being tongues, its just the name of a skill line, not something in text about the lore itself, its flavor for the player and nothing else or yea I'd be raising hell about elven and khajiiti tongues, especially non dragonborn ones since there's a strong chance thu'uming is a racial thing due to Kyne (imperials are just cyro nords largely with some akaviri blood mixed in here n there) rather than being something just anyone can do. Fans still debate and disagree over it but its something Ulfric Stormcloak himself stated for non dragonborn, its an ability Nords can learn. Only reason it got changed for Skyrim and dragonborn specifically is because of amulet of kings shenanigans with mankar camoran and the mehrunes razor, as well as the mysterium xarxes and so players can play any race as dragonborn as is the norm for tes titles.

Well any Khajiit dragonknight is now using dragonshouts if this change goes live. Just read what it says right there. The syllables of that ancient tongue live in the mouth of every dragonknight. And it's called "The Storm Voice", a synonym for the Thu'um. If you say "it's just flavor" and not to be taken literally, then I'll say that it sounds like a Sorcerer passive. So no, I'm taking it literally. The Aldmeri dominion having about one in seven of their troops using the ancient ways of the Nords to defeat the Nords in the battles of Cyrodiil - that's the result of this change.
Would make more sense if they were all still just Akaviri martial artists because everyone had to deal with the Empire and the Akaviri potentate to some extent.

If it's not odd enough to make changes to these names in the first place, or even suggest them in the survey, then it's not odd enough to "split hairs" over them, especially if we have first hand account of a in-universe scholar refuting claims that dragonknights are using the Thu'um.

"Live in", not spoken by. Its exactly what I described, its an echo, not the actual thu'um. You're taking it way too literally. You can say the same thing about dragon priests which only are empowered by the dragons and their power, that it lives in them, aside from the ones in solstheim that do know the thu'um.

If it can be "taken way too literally", maybe that just means it's a bad description. If it's not the actual Thu'um, then it does not deserve a passive called The Storm Voice, not the definite article and not the three capital letters.
If it's inspired by the Thu'um, okay, then make the description reflect that, but if "the syllables [...] live in the mouth of every dragonknight" then it sounds like they are speaking that exact language. Especially "live" in the context of language suggests the dragonknights are speaking the actual dragon language, as opposed to a dead language like the Latin that the catholic church is speaking in real life, which might not be entirely authentic anymore - but that's only when I don't interpret this literally, so I'll stick with my literal interpretation instead and that still sounds bad.

BardokRedSnow · February 11

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.

Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.

But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.

NPCs use some of the same abilities though.

Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".

In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.

I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".

I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.

I dont believe Storm Voice imposes this on you anymore than "Draconic Power" does since Draconic Power is the thu'um.

Especially since Akaviri in nature, is also draconic. Dragons are the source of their inspiration for the abilities which is why its tonal architecture and so similar, even the thu'um being described as releasing a kiai same as those abilities.

Divorcing the draconic thu'uming aspect from the abilities is imo what made it so weird in the first place since dragons are more familiar to tamriel than akavir and their iteration of it even if they were here during some periods of time. Dragons were here and shaped its history far more. And Nords are also far more familiar with the thu'um itself. Makes sense that they'd name something similar to thu'uming, after the thu'um.

Its not literally the thu'um, its an echo, I think most people understand that.

Draconic Power is not the Thu'um.

Draconic is literally described as the language of dragons, and their language is power, pretty much everything dragons can do magically is associated with the thu'um, it is synonymous with the Thu'um and the Voice.

The rest of this is splitting hairs for the sake of it.

I gave you the definition of the word "draconic".

Yes you're splitting hairs and arguing semantics, yes the dragon word is dovahzul and it means the same thing. Because draconic power is the thu'um is the Voice and is Dovahzul.

You are only trying to separate draconic power from the thu'um because it goes against the narrative that relating these two abilities, the Kiai and thu'um, and dragon knights as a whole to the Dov and their power wasn't a thing prior, when it was.

In fact the kiai was related to the thu'um since Morrowind in Children of the Sky when describing Nords, who we later knew got their thu'um from Paarthurnax and were long since believed to be able to shout fully, unlike others because of Kyne. Even then, the kiai is a related power and not actually the thu'um, but still developed parallel to the thu'um from the same source; Dragons.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky

There are no other "draconic" powers Dragons are known for having in the lore, your insistence on ignoring that is why you're getting blindsided by this.

BardokRedSnow · February 11

I dont even know what you're on about, my whole point is that dragon knights and the akavir ability isn't the thu'um, it's related to it, and that using a name like storm voice for an echo of the thu'um is appropriate, you're actually saying the same thing I said in that last post lol, Im just arguing that because they are in fact cousin powers from the same source, as the developers obviously know, that using names like storm voice for flavoring of skill lines, which is something so light on the lore spectrum it may as well be in the same category as mount descriptions, that it really doesn't at all matter.

One is a power directly from dragons, the thu'um, and the other is a lesser power utilizing the same power source, utilizing tonal architecture, minus actual words of power, and developed from being in proximity to and inspired by, dragons.

It is the most biggest example of grasping at straws and splitting hairs that I can honestly think of next to arguing that orcs arent actually elves even though they are.

No one is saying the kiai is the thu'um, but they are related and have been referenced to be long before eso was a thing.

Ratzkifal · February 11

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Unless our dragon knights start speaking the draconic language for their skills, or it explicitly states its the thu'um, its no more than flavor text to remind people where these akaviri arts derived from. It should have something to remind people of its origin, the dragons, and their power which it is inspired by, the thu'um. It was a lot more annoying that this power just existed with no reference to it at all when we had the real deal in TES V. It should stay.

If Zos adds more text to make that clearer fine, but its pretty evident its not actually the Voice.

I agree with you here. If they are going out of their way to call it The Storm Voice, then I expect the player to hear the dragon language any time that a dragonknight is using it. So if ZOS is not going to record voice lines now and do the Thu'um justice, then they should not call it The Storm Voice either. If it's not actually the Voice then rename that passive. It does not belong and we have a universe scholar backing up that claim.
We don't even know if whatever the Tsaesci are doing is really derrived from the Thu'um. After all tonal architecture, sword-singing, or whatever the spinners are doing isn't tracing back to the dragons either as far as we can tell. So how certain are we really that what the Tsaesci are doing does? It very well could be derrived from the Thu'um, or it could be only distantly related on account of being another form of tonal magic, or it might not even be that and be something else entirely. At least Gabrielle Benele suggests it's just destruction magic with some fancy metaphoric paint on it.

BardokRedSnow · February 11

.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

While we wait to hear back from ZOS, which we hopefully will, I'll put out some suggestions:

The Storm Voice Reman's Battle Cry - The voice of Emperor Reman is still remembered by the dragonknights of today.

Reman Cyrodiil was a dragon born, and used the thu'um. Aka the storm voice. Its the same thing.

They had apparently been searching for Dragonborn, and when they heard Reman's voice during the climactic battle at Pale Pass, they realized what he was, knelt, and swore fealty to him resulting in the formation of the Dragonguard.[14][15]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Reman

^this is exactly what happens with the Last Dragonborn several times in Skyrim and the Blades who came from Reman's Dragonguard find out you can thu'um, they immediately look to see if you can absorb dragon souls and have his blood.

If you're okay with Reman being referenced, and his voice, you should be fine with the actual title of his power being mentioned and referenced, the thu'um, the storm voice, which is where the kiai is derived from and the akaviri arts of using it.

Ratzkifal · February 11

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

There's also a monster set that lets you use Maarselok's power, which you could argue its a game mechanic thing that we dont speak the word when its used (its proc'd with a heavy attack) but in practice its pretty much identical to the DK's dragon fire breath, and would make both an echo of the thu'um, derived from the thu'um, but not actually a true thu'um.

Close enough that I don't want them to change the Storm Voice name, its actually something I suggested they do in the surveys so that Nords feel more "at home" with being DKs like others would, especially since its something they'd pick up from having fought the Akaviri multiple times.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In all honesty dragon knight by tes base standards shouldnt even be a thing, Talos was said to be seen as a dragon when looked upon as dragonborn and even the dragonborns shout, dragon aspect was only an ethereal dragoconic armor, meanwhile we're manifesting full dragon wings and scales.

But cats out the bag on that one as is. Wouldnt be as off if only the vestige had these powers since we're Nirn heroes believed to come to be during its time of need like white bloodcells.

NPCs use some of the same abilities though.

Anyway Akavir is clearly a strange place with magics derived directly from dragons, I always wondered if thats why Goldbrand allegedly forged in dragonfire was the shape of a katana, but thats never stated to be the case, just forged by "dragons of the north".

In any case compared to growing wings shooting flames and spewing spikes, Storm Voice is a pretty small point of contention imo and feels more at home to Tamriel than Akaviri stuff does.

I don't mind if the roleplay for your character is that you are actually using dragonshouts when playing your DK. More power to you. The shared theme of dragons is there after all. But don't impose that on others please.
If we kept these names and descriptions more vague then everybody can interpret whatever they want into it. That's why I'm against definitively stating that dragonknights use "The Storm Voice".

I agree that dragonknight is a bit of an outlier compared to other classes and what we've seen from the singleplayer games, but since the stated origin of their powers is Akaviri in nature, it's somewhat easier to handwave that away as Akaviri traditions just being extra strange and mysterious compared to what we are used to.
On the other hand since TES5 we are all very familiar with dragonshouts and while you might say that dragonshouts make the dragonknight feel "more at home to Tamriel", I think the familiarity makes it very easy to point out that playing dragonknight and using dragonshouts feels completely different on about almost every level. That's not good if that's really the intention here.
If the fantasy of the dragonknight is supposed to be a warrior of the Voice, taught by the Greybeards or Kynareth herself, then I think the class underdelivers that fantasy and I'd rather play Skyrim instead. So rather than reinventing the wheel, let's just not call it The Storm Voice as if it's the dovahkiin class.

I dont believe Storm Voice imposes this on you anymore than "Draconic Power" does since Draconic Power is the thu'um.

Especially since Akaviri in nature, is also draconic. Dragons are the source of their inspiration for the abilities which is why its tonal architecture and so similar, even the thu'um being described as releasing a kiai same as those abilities.

Divorcing the draconic thu'uming aspect from the abilities is imo what made it so weird in the first place since dragons are more familiar to tamriel than akavir and their iteration of it even if they were here during some periods of time. Dragons were here and shaped its history far more. And Nords are also far more familiar with the thu'um itself. Makes sense that they'd name something similar to thu'uming, after the thu'um.

Its not literally the thu'um, its an echo, I think most people understand that.

Draconic Power is not the Thu'um.

Draconic is literally described as the language of dragons, and their language is power, pretty much everything dragons can do magically is associated with the thu'um, it is synonymous with the Thu'um and the Voice.

The rest of this is splitting hairs for the sake of it.

I gave you the definition of the word "draconic".

Yes you're splitting hairs and arguing semantics, yes the dragon word is dovahzul and it means the same thing. Because draconic power is the thu'um is the Voice and is Dovahzul.

You are only trying to separate draconic power from the thu'um because it goes against the narrative that relating these two abilities, the Kiai and thu'um, and dragon knights as a whole to the Dov and their power wasn't a thing prior, when it was.

In fact the kiai was related to the thu'um since Morrowind in Children of the Sky when describing Nords, who we later knew got their thu'um from Paarthurnax and were long since believed to be able to shout fully, unlike others because of Kyne. Even then, the kiai is a related power and not actually the thu'um, but still developed parallel to the thu'um from the same source; Dragons.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky

There are no other "draconic" powers Dragons are known for having in the lore, your insistence on ignoring that is why you're getting blindsided by this.

You are not engaging with the point I made at all. You are arguing in bad faith here. Germanic and German don't mean the same thing, so why would "Draconic" be the same thing as "the dragon language"? Just because English has a tendency to name languages by turning adjectives into nouns does not make the simple adjective "draconic" into a synonym of "the language of dragons". That's true for D&D, where all dragonkin are speaking "draconic", but not for the Elder Scrolls, where there is a clear distinction (for mortals, not for dragons) when reading out dragonlanguage from a stone tablet and for actually using the Thu'um. That's why Esbern can read a stone tablet and still can't use dragon shouts.

But to address your point, Dragons are immortal not because of the Thu'um. That's another draconic power right there. Their physical might, the resilience of their scales and bones is also a draconic power because it is the power that a dragon possesses. That makes it draconic. Just because the Thu'um is the most flashy power they have doesn't make it the only one. Draconic is just an adjective.
For someone telling me not to interpret things too literally, you are basing pretty much your entire argument on that one word, while ignoring actual evidence from within the game. Do you believe Gabrielle Benele is a charlatan, yes or no?