What is a Class?

Radiate77 · January 28

@Ratzkifal

^This is just the beginning.

At present, none of the Classes I’ve put together are breaking the game, but they certainly are not weak. At our current trajectory, player-made classes are going to become weak. Inherently weaker than starter classes due to restrictions to what abilities we can use from specific skill lines.

We are in agreement that if you take away what makes a Templar, your example, it is no longer a Templar, the character has found a new identity.

If we can agree that a Class is a product of skill lines, then could we agree that player made classes should be as good as a starter class? Not stronger, not weaker, but at the same level.

Gabrielzavadski · January 28

Game had plenty of freedom before, we only needed balance and performance with big and high quality DLCS being released here and there, but no, they had to find new ways to milk player's money. So instead, we got scribbing, subclassing, and a bunch of new mechanics locked behind small and low quality DLC's.

We didn't need them to destroy class identity. We already could build a sorcerer in heavy armor using a *** greatsword.

After an actual decade playing this game with 14k+ hours registred and a bunch of money spend on the game, and doing actual endgame content, both pvp and pve, i can say with authority that they messed up badly with so many things i can't even say here without being censored or being attacked by the loud minority casuals that thinks ZoS are gods of MMO's lol

Guys... I'm literally playing a gacha game that has free monthly updates with way higher quality than anything ZoS did in the past few years, you can guess which one i'm talking about lol, it starts with W.

So, "What is a Class?" you ask? In a RPG means identity. Inside ESO with ZoS? It means nothing

SneaK · January 28

Radiate77 wrote: »

Playing the game for over a decade I’ve often questioned what ESO would look like if you could use any skills with any setup. Over the last few years we’ve received Scribing and Subclassing and we are closer to that reality than ever, and so a question came to mind…

What is a Class?

When I see the above image, and read the descriptions of each named Class, you can see how each of their Skill Lines combine to create the overall themes matching their name.

My interpretation of this, is that a Class is a product of three skill lines mixed together.

Running off of that interpretation, how is it that we have only seven named classes yet hundreds of combinations?

If Sorcerers are described as strategists that make Daedric Pacts and use Dark Magic, what would be a Sorcerer that uses neither?
As master strategists, Sorcerers call upon Daedric pacts and dark magic as the source of their power.

Would it be safe to say that you are no longer a Sorcerer if you abandon your description for something else entirely, and what makes your new Class any less worthy of support at the level we are seeing with these new Reworks?

I think it’s actually quite simple.

“Subclassing” destroyed classes.

What ZOS introduced was multi classing, not subclassing. Now if they had done it correctly and let’s say you could “sub” one skill line, you would actually have subclassing ie two DK lines and one necro =‘s Deathknight Subclass. Unfortunately that is not what they did and they don’t intend to fix it.

They missed the mark big time. Actual subclassing would have opened up a lot of variety without the magnitude of power gap we see now. It still would have been strong but not ridiculously overpowered.

So short answer, unless I’m on my Stamblade pretending it’s 2016 classes mean nothing.

Ratzkifal · January 28

Radiate77 wrote: »

@Ratzkifal

^This is just the beginning.

At present, none of the Classes I’ve put together are breaking the game, but they certainly are not weak. At our current trajectory, player-made classes are going to become weak. Inherently weaker than starter classes due to restrictions to what abilities we can use from specific skill lines.

We are in agreement that if you take away what makes a Templar, your example, it is no longer a Templar, the character has found a new identity.

If we can agree that a Class is a product of skill lines, then could we agree that player made classes should be as good as a starter class? Not stronger, not weaker, but at the same level.

Same argument applies. We can call this bad design, sure, but this isn't power that pureclass is getting over subclass. This is pureclass catching up to subclass in a way that subclass cannot abuse. Dragonknight needs to catch up to Arcanist's in damage, and we all pretty much agree that Dragonknight needs a buff. But post-subclassing, any buff to DK would have resulted in Arcanist's damage increasing as well, so the solution is to give Dragonknights power in a roundabout way that benefits pure Dragonknights over other classes that simply borrow from them. Otherwise subclass will always have an inherent advantage over pureclasses when minmaxing.
I agree that this is dumb, but it is simply a consequence of trying to balance subclassing in a game that wasn't originally designed with subclassing in mind. It was either this, or heavy nerfs to everything that other classes could find useful until they can no longer find a use. So what we are getting now is already the best possible scenario under subclassing.

If you think this treatment is somehow unfair, then I would agree with you there and that's why I was opposed to the way subclassing was implemented from the beginning, because it could only result in unfair treatment somewhere along the way. By the end of the all the class refreshes you can expect some level of fairness to return, but that's a long way and if you feel this is already discriminating against subclass builds then brace yourself. I suspect it'll be a lot worse with the Nightblade, Sorcerer and Warden refresh.

Sadras · January 28

I never liked the existence of a strict class system in ESO and only put up with it. Coming from the single-player titles, I'd much prefer either having no classes at all and just a giant Skyrim-esque skill tree collection to pick and choose from and form my own theme or something like Oblivion and Morrowind with suggested classes for those who enjoy them with default set-ups but also the chance to build our own and name it; I wouldn't mind if that also came with restrictions and rules like in those games but adjusted to MMO balancing concerns. How that would be done isn't my job; that's for the game designers.

I enjoy subclassing despite some draw-backs because it introduces at least some amount of freedom although I would prefer much more.
I also enjoy the new skill styles and all the new options we get to interpret various skills with different visual flavour.

The new focus on class identity via lore and what each one is supposed to mean is actually highly unwelcome to me. I've always created my own Elder Scrolls characters with their own backstories, and explained their specific skills in a way that made sense for the roleplay to me. I don't want to be told what my characters are all about; I've ignored those flavour text restrictions from the start when they didn't fit and will ignore them now as well.

Emeratis · January 28

Sadras wrote: »

The new focus on class identity via lore and what each one is supposed to mean is actually highly unwelcome to me. I've always created my own Elder Scrolls characters with their own backstories, and explained their specific skills in a way that made sense for the roleplay to me. I don't want to be told what my characters are all about; I've ignored those flavour text restrictions from the start when they didn't fit and will ignore them now as well.

Agree with you completely, but this is my biggest fear of the class refresh. I already did not like the blurb descriptions and how rigid they were and how it made it seem like the class rework would potentially reinforce a more rigid interpretation of them that might phase out certain people.

We are already somewhat seeing some of this. Some people have not been happy with dk losing poison related skills, and even though poison was added to dk later on, 2015 is still relatively early in the game's history and some people built their characters around the poison aspects of dk. To a lesser degree, while my Mehrunes Dagon priestess got a lot of things in the dk refresh for healers, I am still somewhat sad about visually losing Ash Cloud, as story wise her summoning a healing ash was one of her core spells. Fortunately, my problem could easily be fixed by adding a skill style called "Hearthfire- Ash Cloud", but for those who built their character identity around a poison dk? That would require either a much more overarching skill pack giving dk a poison visual theme or they have lost what made their character their character.

As a nightblade main who has three very different characters under the nightblade class umbrella, I'm admittedly pretty apprehensive of the class overhaul. Warden being next is also a little unnerving given how each of it's skill lines are very different and have very different draws for the players who like warden (as I mentioned before, some play warden for the ice thematic, others druidic, and finally a third for animals and critters). I want to hope that given how homogeneous dk's thematic was and that warden's is kinda the opposite that it will show how they are handling both types of classes, because classes like templar and arcanist are similarly homogeneous, but sorc and nightblade are a bit more diverse in theme and scope similar to warden.

Vulkunne · January 28

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I'd describe Werewolf functionally as a Class. After all, you don't get to use any abilities other than your Werewolf abilities while transformed, and the Werewolf abilities have a very solid theme and style of play.

Yeah, it's not something you pick at character creation, but you effectively replace your current Class with Werewolf when you transform, and you can't argue that Werewolf lacks a source of power (Hircine himself grants you Lycanthropy in the quest literally titled "Hircine's Gift") and a power fantasy (look at the tooltips of the skills for phrases like "Transform into a beast", "Pounce on an enemy with primal fury", "Roar with bloodlust", and "Shred enemies in front of you with your tainted claws" to get an idea of what the power fantasy is)

That's correct. To get the most of WW you have to build for that first and everything else second. One reason is certain limitations for WW, such as you can't bar swap or you use non-WW abilities. So, most def all that has to be taken into account first and then we look and see how the class can help both with WW and then as far as other things are concerned.

WW was the first sub-class, the forerunner if you will. Taught subclassing everything it knows.

Radiate77 · January 28

Now that we’ve gathered a range of varied opinions, I wonder what the official statement on these would be? @ZOS_Kevin who should I tag for this?

Are Classes a composition of 3 skill lines into a theme, and if so, should we treat Subclassing as a doorway with which we are to create new Classes?

BXR_Lonestar · January 29

Radiate77 wrote: »

Playing the game for over a decade I’ve often questioned what ESO would look like if you could use any skills with any setup. Over the last few years we’ve received Scribing and Subclassing and we are closer to that reality than ever, and so a question came to mind…

What is a Class?

When I see the above image, and read the descriptions of each named Class, you can see how each of their Skill Lines combine to create the overall themes matching their name.

My interpretation of this, is that a Class is a product of three skill lines mixed together.

Running off of that interpretation, how is it that we have only seven named classes yet hundreds of combinations?

If Sorcerers are described as strategists that make Daedric Pacts and use Dark Magic, what would be a Sorcerer that uses neither?
As master strategists, Sorcerers call upon Daedric pacts and dark magic as the source of their power.

Would it be safe to say that you are no longer a Sorcerer if you abandon your description for something else entirely, and what makes your new Class any less worthy of support at the level we are seeing with these new Reworks?

What we've found out by the way they unrolled subclassing is that allowing any player to use any skill line or ability at any time without restriction leads to a really unbalanced game, both in terms of PVE and PVP play. Which would be fine - if this were a single player game like Skyrim. But it is not. This is an MMORPG where there are multiple people playing it, and imbalance in both phases effects their experience. So while the game takes place in an Elder Scrolls universe, the game cannot be strictly bound by Elder Scrolls like gameplay. It's just not going to work.

BTW, this is also true of hybridzation. Having magic wielders having no use for using staves for damage dealing other than preference is just crazy. The combat system has been really wonky IMO trying to pursue a classic ES like experience with multiplayer functionality because the developers failed and refused to recognize a simple truth: ES games are single player games and this is a multiplayer game that needs to play by its own rules to maintain a quality gaming experience.

Radiate77 · January 29

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Playing the game for over a decade I’ve often questioned what ESO would look like if you could use any skills with any setup. Over the last few years we’ve received Scribing and Subclassing and we are closer to that reality than ever, and so a question came to mind…

What is a Class?

When I see the above image, and read the descriptions of each named Class, you can see how each of their Skill Lines combine to create the overall themes matching their name.

My interpretation of this, is that a Class is a product of three skill lines mixed together.

Running off of that interpretation, how is it that we have only seven named classes yet hundreds of combinations?

If Sorcerers are described as strategists that make Daedric Pacts and use Dark Magic, what would be a Sorcerer that uses neither?
As master strategists, Sorcerers call upon Daedric pacts and dark magic as the source of their power.

Would it be safe to say that you are no longer a Sorcerer if you abandon your description for something else entirely, and what makes your new Class any less worthy of support at the level we are seeing with these new Reworks?

What we've found out by the way they unrolled subclassing is that allowing any player to use any skill line or ability at any time without restriction leads to a really unbalanced game, both in terms of PVE and PVP play. Which would be fine - if this were a single player game like Skyrim. But it is not. This is an MMORPG where there are multiple people playing it, and imbalance in both phases effects their experience. So while the game takes place in an Elder Scrolls universe, the game cannot be strictly bound by Elder Scrolls like gameplay. It's just not going to work.

BTW, this is also true of hybridzation. Having magic wielders having no use for using staves for damage dealing other than preference is just crazy. The combat system has been really wonky IMO trying to pursue a classic ES like experience with multiplayer functionality because the developers failed and refused to recognize a simple truth: ES games are single player games and this is a multiplayer game that needs to play by its own rules to maintain a quality gaming experience.

Subclassing didn’t break balance, there wasn’t any to begin with. I said it in another thread, but to blame Subclassing for how the meta has shaken out, is to ignore over a decade of imbalance.

You can have a balanced game with Subclassing even in a multiplayer game (look at every successful multiplayer game with combat customization) when skills or skill lines are all held to the same standards, but we’ve had a ghost spreadsheet dictating which values are worth more or less, and none of us have access to it. When that spreadsheet tells you that skills like Skeletal Mage, Summon Clannfear, Sun Shield, and Swallow Soul are fine, there is clearly a problem with how values are weighted.

When this refresh finishes up, there will be more value spread around, and people will feel much better about which skill lines they choose… assuming that they can even use those skill lines to begin with.

Radiate77 · January 29

I also want to remind people.

While I am passionate about both topics, for this thread I care more about what your idea of a class is or should be, so let’s avoid derailing the topic with discussions of combat balance when it has nothing to do with identity.

Thank you.

Radiate77 · February 4

Okay, now that the “while playing a Dragonknight” restriction is going live, this topic is paramount.

I need to know what a Class is.

Will we see exclusive “while playing a Druid” or “while playing an Elementalist” conditions tacked onto skills that fit their theme too… or are those not Classes?

They look like Classes and function like Classes, why are they not treated like Classes?

Erickson9610 · February 5

Radiate77 wrote: »

Okay, now that the “while playing a Dragonknight” restriction is going live, this topic is paramount.

I need to know what a Class is.

Will we see exclusive “while playing a Druid” or “while playing an Elementalist” conditions tacked onto skills that fit their theme too… or are those not Classes?

They look like Classes and function like Classes, why are they not treated like Classes?

I think ZOS only cares about the 7 Classes you pick at character creation. No other playstyle (Werewolf included) really matters, because your core Class is the only immutable part of your character. I never wanted to play as a Class, but it feels like a requirement in the current state of the game.

While it would one approach to see conditions somewhere that say something like "while using Ardent Flame, Storm Calling, and Winter's Embrace" to raise the power of specific Subclassing combinations, the goal of saying "while you are a Dragonknight" is to give power to specific core Classes, even if you swap away the rest of your Dragonknight skill lines as a Dragonknight.

It doesn't make sense to have "while you are a <Class>" conditions if you are still allowed to Subclass your other skill lines away — this isn't helping Pureclassing at all. It's just giving you a reason to be a different core Class, something that Class Sets and Class Masteries were already doing.

In my opinion, it'd be better if you had skills from one skill line that directly buffed skills in other skill lines, so you'd have more power running those skill lines together.

Here's an example: imagine something like how Werewolf's "Ferocious Roar" ability applies an effect to an enemy that causes the enemy to take extra damage from the "Piercing Howl" ability and its morphs — in the case of Classes with 3 skill lines, imagine one skill line containing Ferocious Roar, and another containing Piercing Howl.

You can only get this damage boost if you run both skill lines to get access to both skills, but you can still just use one skill line or the other to forego that bonus.

cyclonus11 · February 5

Having fun coming up with names for subclass combinations

Radiate77 · February 5

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Having fun coming up with names for subclass combinations

That is awesome. Keep up the incredible work!

spartaxoxo · February 5

Radiate77 wrote: »

Okay, now that the “while playing a Dragonknight” restriction is going live, this topic is paramount.

I need to know what a Class is.

Will we see exclusive “while playing a Druid” or “while playing an Elementalist” conditions tacked onto skills that fit their theme too… or are those not Classes?

They look like Classes and function like Classes, why are they not treated like Classes?

Those are builds/subclasses not classes. The classes are the ZOS created ones that we choose at character creation. Subclassing is what we can choose to do or not do customize our characters. They have custom names so ZOS couldn't do that type of buffs even if they wanted to because there is no druid or elementalist. Two different people can call their build a druid and have completely different setups. Maybe one person calls it a druid because they heal with green balance. Maybe another one is a DPS that doesn't use warden skills at all.

Radiate77 · February 5

Instead of official recognition of what a Class is, ZOS have allowed Subclassing hysteria to reach such a point where now it might be more beneficial to roll the system back.

I have never been more infuriated with a team as I am with Zenimax Online Studios, as they have done nothing… I repeat NOTHING to dispel any of the lies and nonsense I read daily regarding this system.

I’m sick and tired of getting on these forums just to watch what was the same 2-3 people complaining about the system, now become the same 7-10 people doing so, on every thread.

Radiate77 · February 5

I’m tired of trying Positivity, and encouraging people to think outside of the box just to have ZOS put out official write-ups telling people that Subclassing killed Class Identity, along with changes like “when playing a Dragonknight” that provide further validation to these people.

Just say it was a mistake, that Subclassing was wrong, and roll it back.

spartaxoxo · February 5

I don't think subclassing was a mistake. I think it will end up a net positive for the community. I think it should have come alongside the class refreshes or some other such system to ensure that you don't have to subclass in the most competitive content. But, it gives players a lot more freedom to build their characters in the way that they want to build them. I think that's a great thing. I also like that it makes it more of an elder scrolls game. In the single player games Elder Scrolls classes were just starting points. And now classes are building blocks you can use to build the character that you want. Maybe you liked the block set that they gave you. Maybe you want to get more creative and build something more suited to your tastes. As long as both of those things are viable in all content, that's a good thing.

Radiate77 · February 5

Subclass’ created Classes are not going to retain identity at the end of this rework with each class having skills that require X number of Dragonknight skills to perform, or to have Extended Ritual only purge 5 effects on a Templar, or for Shadowy Disguise to only guarantee a crit on Nightblade.

Until a Class is defined as something a Subclassed one can fit into the definition of, they will never be seen with the same importance.

spartaxoxo · February 5

We don't have to use the same word to describe different things to want things to be balanced. That makes things completely confusing to discuss especially for new players and has no impact on balance. The devs have their own internal names for things anyway. So long as there are no trade-offs for subclassing, it will always be superior to pure classes because subclassing inherently has a much greater degree of flexibility. By giving bonuses for pure classes, they allow them to compete without needing to nerf subclassing.

If they do it correctly, both things will be viable. If after the class refresh subclassing isn't viable. They can also then add buffs/nerfs specifically for subclassing.

The important part isn't what we players call it besides making things easy to understand and communicate. The important part is that the devs keep both options viable

Radiate77 · February 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

We don't have to use the same word to describe different things to want things to be balanced. That makes things completely confusing to discuss especially for new players and has no impact on balance. The devs have their own internal names for things anyway. So long as there are no trade-offs for subclassing, it will always be superior to pure classes because subclassing inherently has a much greater degree of flexibility. By giving bonuses for pure classes, they allow them to compete without needing to nerf subclassing.

If they do it correctly, both things will be viable. If after the class refresh subclassing isn't viable. They can also then add buffs/nerfs specifically for subclassing.

You’re talking preset, not future.

In the present, we have DPS lines, Healer lines, Tank lines, you can stack three of each to incredible degrees.

The stated goal of this rework is for every skill line to have the same value for every role. Running Assassination/Herald/Ardent will be as strong in any role as running Winter’s Embrace/Restoring Light/Shadow, and this is WITHOUT arbitrary nonsense restrictions to how skills function.

spartaxoxo · February 5

Radiate77 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

We don't have to use the same word to describe different things to want things to be balanced. That makes things completely confusing to discuss especially for new players and has no impact on balance. The devs have their own internal names for things anyway. So long as there are no trade-offs for subclassing, it will always be superior to pure classes because subclassing inherently has a much greater degree of flexibility. By giving bonuses for pure classes, they allow them to compete without needing to nerf subclassing.

If they do it correctly, both things will be viable. If after the class refresh subclassing isn't viable. They can also then add buffs/nerfs specifically for subclassing.

You’re talking preset, not future.

In the present, we have DPS lines, Healer lines, Tank lines, you can stack three of each to incredible degrees.

The stated goal of this rework is for every skill line to have the same value for every role. Running Assassination/Herald/Ardent will be as strong in any role as running Winter’s Embrace/Restoring Light/Shadow, and this is WITHOUT arbitrary nonsense restrictions to how skills function.

Unless all the classes are literally cookie cutters, there will be good skills in all the skill lines that have strong reasons to pick them over something else. Subclassing will have greater flexibility because it allows you to pick the best of what each class to offer.

Radiate77 · February 5

But once again, I have to say, I do not want to discuss combat balance in this thread.

I care about identity.

-I do not want to lose identity each patch due to arbitrary restrictions being placed upon us.

Emeratis · February 6

I've been lurking, not much new for me to say that I hadn't already and all and I don't like feeling repetitive but I did want to put out there something I'm mulling over as I spam IA for solstice treasure map farming:

The game is inconsistent about classes and subclasses but even in IA it is extra dissonant. We know that the sets in IA are tied to base class for use, even if you swap off the skill line it enhances (and those who subclass into a skill line cannot use the set). There are probably two IA sets that are remotely useful as is so it's not overly annoying other than the rules feeling very forced. Similarly, the IA styles associated with these sets are locked to class despite them being not locked to class a patch before they dropped when anyone could preview them regardless of class. Many people, myself included, have pointed out that characters can use fashion to appear as enemy factions, different alliances than their character alliance, and other things that indicate spywork/disguise type things so this restriction makes little sense.

Here's the fun part: currently the Class Embodiment verse buffs all class line skills regardless of base class or subclass. IA has had updates and changes since it launched (even it's very name) and probably still will in the future, but when subclassing dropped despite other things being addressed relating to IA, Class Embodiment buffs all and they did not add a subclassing verse in. Honestly I prefer this over the alternative but it just makes things weird and adds to the mixed messages both in and out of game.

Again, mostly just overthinking a bit to avoid the boredom of farming but I do find it curious and amusing that even within IA, the question of what is a class has ambiguous and debatable answers.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 6

Emeratis wrote: »

As a nightblade main who has three very different characters under the nightblade class umbrella, I'm admittedly pretty apprehensive of the class overhaul. Warden being next is also a little unnerving given how each of it's skill lines are very different and have very different draws for the players who like warden (as I mentioned before, some play warden for the ice thematic, others druidic, and finally a third for animals and critters). I want to hope that given how homogeneous dk's thematic was and that warden's is kinda the opposite that it will show how they are handling both types of classes, because classes like templar and arcanist are similarly homogeneous, but sorc and nightblade are a bit more diverse in theme and scope similar to warden.

One of their goals is giving you tougher choices while subclassing. Away from "this is the dps line of class x, y, z - I'll take them for my dps character" to mixing/ shuffeling roles and skill lines.

With that in mind they should come up with new skills fitting each skill line theme. Currently Green Balance brings the healing with it's active skills. At best they give us plant based dps and tank options in that line. Like the ranking vine shield of some npcs for example or the choketorn pull as a tank skill. For dps a thorn rank whip etc.
Winter's embrace could end up in better frost dps skills while adding control based animal companion skills.

However, this requires some serious work to develope new skills from the ground up. But it alignes best with how the class is thematically designed and what their intended goals are.

Emeratis · February 6

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Emeratis wrote: »

As a nightblade main who has three very different characters under the nightblade class umbrella, I'm admittedly pretty apprehensive of the class overhaul. Warden being next is also a little unnerving given how each of it's skill lines are very different and have very different draws for the players who like warden (as I mentioned before, some play warden for the ice thematic, others druidic, and finally a third for animals and critters). I want to hope that given how homogeneous dk's thematic was and that warden's is kinda the opposite that it will show how they are handling both types of classes, because classes like templar and arcanist are similarly homogeneous, but sorc and nightblade are a bit more diverse in theme and scope similar to warden.

One of their goals is giving you tougher choices while subclassing. Away from "this is the dps line of class x, y, z - I'll take them for my dps character" to mixing/ shuffeling roles and skill lines.

With that in mind they should come up with new skills fitting each skill line theme. Currently Green Balance brings the healing with it's active skills. At best they give us plant based dps and tank options in that line. Like the ranking vine shield of some npcs for example or the choketorn pull as a tank skill. For dps a thorn rank whip etc.
Winter's embrace could end up in better frost dps skills while adding control based animal companion skills.

However, this requires some serious work to develope new skills from the ground up. But it alignes best with how the class is thematically designed and what their intended goals are.

That goal is a good one and one I also agree with. Like I said before, I do not think anyone except min maxers want raw power unrestricted. I will say the dk rework gave me reassurances and concerns for the above part you quoted. The rework was largely dps centric in terms of changes and I think if they try any "as warden" stipulations on their class lines it will feel more limiting because as I mentioned before ice, nature, and animal handling are all very popular flavor themes and the game has already had a history of people wanting to use ice magic and having few options there. My personal preference and expectation was and still is more "these skills are both very good and tempting to use but I only need one spammable/execute/burst heal/etc so I'm picking the one I like/that fits my character best because they're both relatively equal in power."

From a logistics standpoint I still do wonder if some skill lines are pretty pinched in terms of flexibility such as sorc down the line. I still kinda feel like the three morphs for every skill with a warrior, mage, and thief lore thematic would maybe give more balance breathing room and latch into the mythos of three in elder scrolls lore but also especially is recurring a lot in game. It also would help more with the pressure to be dps centric because while dps have a lot of problems with how subclassing was implemented, supports also have major pain points with subclassing that need addressed. Yes, it might be a lot of work, but as you mentioned and I agree with, to get this right they need to put in a lot of work and question some things of the old system that may have served their purpose or cause limitations in the modern day of the game.

Overall I agree with their intent and what you posted, but it is also hard to trust and while I'm optimistic I'm also apprehensive about the class reworks and direction if that makes sense. I am trying to be more optimistic than apprehensive though.