Do You Even Play PvP?

Gabriel_H · February 2

This is an utterly meaningless change. It will have no serious impact on the problem and will continue to cause server performance issues.

Having this much healing completely throws off combat balance. If somebody is built for healing, and someone else is built for damage, on a one-on-one fight the latter should prevail. It's how you avoid stalemate situations - which would be a broken system.

When you have someone built for healing, and 10 people built for damage that ends in a stalemate (which very much happens) then your entire system is beyond broken.

Just stop allowing HoT and DoT stacking.

coop500 · February 2

I mean, in fairness, they hosted a poll and this is what won... Yes, the poll should have had more options, BUT the players did have a say and this won.

Gabriel_H · February 2

coop500 wrote: »

I mean, in fairness, they hosted a poll and this is what won... Yes, the poll should have had more options, BUT the players did have a say and this won.

Fun Fact: People can be wrong. A game developer should have the wherewithal to explain to the players why this is a bad idea.

gariondavey · February 2

That poll was not good
They also said the change that many were advocating for (1 instance of a named sticky hot only) was too much work to code

MincMincMinc · February 2

gariondavey wrote: »

That poll was not good
They also said the change that many were advocating for (1 instance of a named sticky hot only) was too much work to code

Right because there is no lightswitch for this code wise. You have to go onto each skill effect and adjust how it stacks. Meaning pve and pvp will either both have to stack or not stack. It may be possible for them to do an IF/OR type statement where you branch off to a pve and pvp version depending if battlespirit is active. However you are really spaghetti-fying the code.

Or split pve and pvp with the vengeance system so you can make a copy of each skill for pve and for pvp. Then the PvP versions have their timers changed and have more pvp specific changes.

Keep in mind this is just skills, there are hundreds of proc sets that do over time effects which could follow the stacking/nostacking ruleset. Think back to the summerset sloads meta, it could have been completely avoided if zos prevented the over time from stacking. This applies for really any proc set. We always see issues when zos doesnt properly think through where the cooldowns or timers should be.

YandereGirlfriend · February 2

MincMincMinc wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That poll was not good
They also said the change that many were advocating for (1 instance of a named sticky hot only) was too much work to code

Right because there is no lightswitch for this code wise. You have to go onto each skill effect and adjust how it stacks. Meaning pve and pvp will either both have to stack or not stack. It may be possible for them to do an IF/OR type statement where you branch off to a pve and pvp version depending if battlespirit is active. However you are really spaghetti-fying the code.

Or split pve and pvp with the vengeance system so you can make a copy of each skill for pve and for pvp. Then the PvP versions have their timers changed and have more pvp specific changes.

Keep in mind this is just skills, there are hundreds of proc sets that do over time effects which could follow the stacking/nostacking ruleset. Think back to the summerset sloads meta, it could have been completely avoided if zos prevented the over time from stacking. This applies for really any proc set. We always see issues when zos doesnt properly think through where the cooldowns or timers should be.

I can't think of very many sets that apply a sticky HOT to more than one target. Most sets with a heal proc are tied to a fixed area or radius around the wearer or are limited by other game mechanics, such as Twilight Remedy (not that anyone uses that set).

MincMincMinc · February 2

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That poll was not good
They also said the change that many were advocating for (1 instance of a named sticky hot only) was too much work to code

Right because there is no lightswitch for this code wise. You have to go onto each skill effect and adjust how it stacks. Meaning pve and pvp will either both have to stack or not stack. It may be possible for them to do an IF/OR type statement where you branch off to a pve and pvp version depending if battlespirit is active. However you are really spaghetti-fying the code.

Or split pve and pvp with the vengeance system so you can make a copy of each skill for pve and for pvp. Then the PvP versions have their timers changed and have more pvp specific changes.

Keep in mind this is just skills, there are hundreds of proc sets that do over time effects which could follow the stacking/nostacking ruleset. Think back to the summerset sloads meta, it could have been completely avoided if zos prevented the over time from stacking. This applies for really any proc set. We always see issues when zos doesnt properly think through where the cooldowns or timers should be.

I can't think of very many sets that apply a sticky HOT to more than one target. Most sets with a heal proc are tied to a fixed area or radius around the wearer or are limited by other game mechanics, such as Twilight Remedy (not that anyone uses that set).

They could target down specific sets or just change them as they pop up. Just without hardset stacking rules at some point im sure we will run into some proc set of the month that will be annoying until it gets fixed and replaced by the next one.

tomofhyrule · February 2

They specifically said - in about 5 different places - that this was not intended to be the final answer.

The problem was that they offerred a solution (50% heal reduction at 3 HoTs), which everyone called out as being too oppressive. They all called for a more nuanced solution, and pretty well 90% of people are calling for "Only allow one of each type of HoT so you don't have 15 Vigors on you at once."

That would require a bit of programming though, so they can't get that change into U49. Their options were to a) keep the oppressive one and adjust the numbers, or b) scrap it entirely. They let the PTS testers vote on which was preferable.

And they directly stated that a future patch will redo that into a more nuanced form, and they're looking at that exact thing that every other person is suggesting and thinking they're the first person to suggest it. It just cant' be done for U49.

Estin · February 3

It's better than nothing until they're able to work on a more complex change, but I'm not sure if 8 HoTs are low enough for it to make a difference where it's needed. Quite frankly 5 would've been a better option.

Thumbless_Bot · February 3

Quick... what's the math on 8 radiating or echoing per second... with battle spirit it's what, 16-20k per second... so 9 would be 18 - 22.5k per second?

So minus a third of that is 12k - 15k having per second.

This is not a big enough hit imho. It will have literally zero impact in cyro.

My math night be high or low so anyone who knows what an actual healer gets per tick on radiating and or echoing please chime in.

Thumbless_Bot · February 3

coop500 wrote: »

I mean, in fairness, they hosted a poll and this is what won... Yes, the poll should have had more options, BUT the players did have a say and this won.

Agree but the choices were not optimal.

For example, do you like eso:

1. Twice as much as any other game you have ever played...
2. Eight times as much as any other game...

Please choose the best option.

YandereGirlfriend · February 3

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Quick... what's the math on 8 radiating or echoing per second... with battle spirit it's what, 16-20k per second... so 9 would be 18 - 22.5k per second?

So minus a third of that is 12k - 15k having per second.

This is not a big enough hit imho. It will have literally zero impact in cyro.

My math night be high or low so anyone who knows what an actual healer gets per tick on radiating and or echoing please chime in.

My Echoing Vigor ticks in Cyrodiil are typically 1.7k so: 8 instances * 1700 per tick = 13600 per tick / 2 second tick rate = 6800 HPS; w/ 33% penalty = 4556 HPS.

That is actually... not that outlandish at all.

If outside-of-group heals were banned and you could reliably build for 7 stacks, then you would be wiser to remain fixed at 7, as that number would give you 5950 HPS without any additional penalty.

You could also make the decision as a group to try to overcome via brute force the penalty by stacking even more sticky HOTs, since after you trip the penalty once there is no further disincentive to continue gaining stacks.

In this example, though, you wouldn't actually come out ahead until you reached 11 stacks, and even then, only barely so. It wouldn't really be worth your time until you were in fairly implausible territory if using only Vigor and Radiating Regen, like 15+ combined stacks. IMO, that modest gain in background HPS is definitely not worth nerfing your burst heals by 33%.

So if it were up to me (and it is), then I definitely would opt to remain under 8 stacks. And with room to absorb several stray stacks cast either by trolls or else well-intentioned zone players. Which gets even more complicated given how many basic class abilities also count as stacks toward the penalty (see my previous posts).

The upshot is that Vigor and Radiating are essentially dead skills now, in the sense that you do not run them on more than the absolute minimum number of players. Which is good and represents progress, to be clear. But I would still like to see a single instance cap per morph applied in the future. The poor server would like to see that cap as well.

There was a time when this change would have hit harder but the days of DDs running back-bar Radiating Regen are behind us.

Militan1404 · February 3

If this is the best the balance team can come up with? If they dont understand it now and missfire so much patch note after patch note, it just not in their capability to balance this game. Target healing with out targeting shield stacking would only hurt the average joe and small scale players and not ball groups, ball group would be fine and proboly stronger after this change, zergs and small scale would be alot weaker after this. Also healers would be outlawed from pvp after this change, and would just drive away player once again.. it seems we are cooked, if they dont do something players would leave and pvp would die, when they do something its things like this that do more harm to the game than good and again couse players to leave and the game would die eventely..

Thumbless_Bot · February 3

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Quick... what's the math on 8 radiating or echoing per second... with battle spirit it's what, 16-20k per second... so 9 would be 18 - 22.5k per second?

So minus a third of that is 12k - 15k having per second.

This is not a big enough hit imho. It will have literally zero impact in cyro.

My math night be high or low so anyone who knows what an actual healer gets per tick on radiating and or echoing please chime in.

My Echoing Vigor ticks in Cyrodiil are typically 1.7k so: 8 instances * 1700 per tick = 13600 per tick / 2 second tick rate = 6800 HPS; w/ 33% penalty = 4556 HPS.

That is actually... not that outlandish at all.

If outside-of-group heals were banned and you could reliably build for 7 stacks, then you would be wiser to remain fixed at 7, as that number would give you 5950 HPS without any additional penalty.

You could also make the decision as a group to try to overcome via brute force the penalty by stacking even more sticky HOTs, since after you trip the penalty once there is no further disincentive to continue gaining stacks.

In this example, though, you wouldn't actually come out ahead until you reached 11 stacks, and even then, only barely so. It wouldn't really be worth your time until you were in fairly implausible territory if using only Vigor and Radiating Regen, like 15+ combined stacks. IMO, that modest gain in background HPS is definitely not worth nerfing your burst heals by 33%.

So if it were up to me (and it is), then I definitely would opt to remain under 8 stacks. And with room to absorb several stray stacks cast either by trolls or else well-intentioned zone players. Which gets even more complicated given how many basic class abilities also count as stacks toward the penalty (see my previous posts).

The upshot is that Vigor and Radiating are essentially dead skills now, in the sense that you do not run them on more than the absolute minimum number of players. Which is good and represents progress, to be clear. But I would still like to see a single instance cap per morph applied in the future. The poor server would like to see that cap as well.

There was a time when this change would have hit harder but the days of DDs running back-bar Radiating Regen are behind us.

So youre getting 9k heals instead of 13.6k every two seconds. That healing reduction is not nothing. Too bad it takes 8 sricky hots to get there...

BardokRedSnow · February 4

Militan1404 wrote: »

If this is the best the balance team can come up with? If they dont understand it now and missfire so much patch note after patch note, it just not in their capability to balance this game. Target healing with out targeting shield stacking would only hurt the average joe and small scale players and not ball groups, ball group would be fine and proboly stronger after this change, zergs and small scale would be alot weaker after this. Also healers would be outlawed from pvp after this change, and would just drive away player once again.. it seems we are cooked, if they dont do something players would leave and pvp would die, when they do something its things like this that do more harm to the game than good and again couse players to leave and the game would die eventely..

I wouldnt say all that, clearly from all the changes they've made to the pts they're hearing us out. Its not a big step, but it is a step in the right direction and they're trying to actually understand the problem. I've made a lot of comments about how zos doesn't play their own game lol and while I think largely that's true for pvp especially, whether wrong or not, they're obviously trying to improve and understand it more than they seemingly have in quite a while.

I have seen so many times where they ignored what pts commenters have said and rolled things out as is unchanged, so there is a huge difference now vs how they've operated in the past. And as many have already stated, they've said this is far from their last iteration of healing nerfs, but I hope they also take a look at overshielding as well.

Militan1404 · February 4

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If this is the best the balance team can come up with? If they dont understand it now and missfire so much patch note after patch note, it just not in their capability to balance this game. Target healing with out targeting shield stacking would only hurt the average joe and small scale players and not ball groups, ball group would be fine and proboly stronger after this change, zergs and small scale would be alot weaker after this. Also healers would be outlawed from pvp after this change, and would just drive away player once again.. it seems we are cooked, if they dont do something players would leave and pvp would die, when they do something its things like this that do more harm to the game than good and again couse players to leave and the game would die eventely..

I wouldnt say all that, clearly from all the changes they've made to the pts they're hearing us out. Its not a big step, but it is a step in the right direction and they're trying to actually understand the problem. I've made a lot of comments about how zos doesn't play their own game lol and while I think largely that's true for pvp especially, whether wrong or not, they're obviously trying to improve and understand it more than they seemingly have in quite a while.

I have seen so many times where they ignored what pts commenters have said and rolled things out as is unchanged, so there is a huge difference now vs how they've operated in the past. And as many have already stated, they've said this is far from their last iteration of healing nerfs, but I hope they also take a look at overshielding as well.

So this is what its become? Just becouse they not ghosting us anymore we should be so starstrucked that we should accept any change they do no matter how stupid it is? Like they self saying all the time lately like its their new slogan «actions says more than words» what actions have we really seen? Not much at all. And now that the player base is getting smaller and smaller they cant really ignore us anymore can they? And this change dosent fix anything, they nerfed small scale and casual healers, and in a way semi-buffed ball groups becouse when everyone else gets weaker, they gets stronger and they wont be affected by this at all and i am sure wasnt the plan. And now we gonna have troll healers running around that buildt for healing as little as possible runing around nerfing players, and real healers would get hate and asked to stay away. This aint a small step in the right direction but a big step in the wrong direction.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · February 4

To all those saying "It wont have any impact".

It will have an impact against groups that already struggle with burst healing. It will have less impact against groups who are already performing well. At one point I thought they mentioned it would be 33% reduction to heals AND SHIELDS - I've not tested PTS but if it's just heals thats a further bad thing.

ZOS has agreed that this isn't the 'fix' its a temporary measure since the first suggested fix was rejected (rightly). They can gather data and work on further fixes.

Provided they do so this is a net positive to see such kind of changes being attempted and refined.

ZOS_Kevin · February 4

tomofhyrule wrote: »

They specifically said - in about 5 different places - that this was not intended to be the final answer.

The problem was that they offerred a solution (50% heal reduction at 3 HoTs), which everyone called out as being too oppressive. They all called for a more nuanced solution, and pretty well 90% of people are calling for "Only allow one of each type of HoT so you don't have 15 Vigors on you at once."

That would require a bit of programming though, so they can't get that change into U49. Their options were to a) keep the oppressive one and adjust the numbers, or b) scrap it entirely. They let the PTS testers vote on which was preferable.

And they directly stated that a future patch will redo that into a more nuanced form, and they're looking at that exact thing that every other person is suggesting and thinking they're the first person to suggest it. It just cant' be done for U49.

Wanted to reiterate this point. This is not meant to be a permanent fix. We know that overall the player base wants a different solution than what was proposed earlier in the PTS cycle. Additionally we need more time to work those things out in between staying on schedule for class rebalancing. There are a lot of things to juggle here, so the poll was merely meant to be a stopgap measure in the meantime. But we fully intend to revisit this in a future update to get a better answer on a future PTS for every to test and work through. The poll was a new attempt to give some agency in what we do in the meantime, until we are able to get back to a more long-term fix. Fully understand that not everyone is happy with this, but it is meant to be temporary. Once we have a more clear understanding of where we can get a new attempt at a fix, we will make sure to follow up with everyone.

Thank you @tomofhyrule for highlighting.

BardokRedSnow · February 4

Militan1404 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If this is the best the balance team can come up with? If they dont understand it now and missfire so much patch note after patch note, it just not in their capability to balance this game. Target healing with out targeting shield stacking would only hurt the average joe and small scale players and not ball groups, ball group would be fine and proboly stronger after this change, zergs and small scale would be alot weaker after this. Also healers would be outlawed from pvp after this change, and would just drive away player once again.. it seems we are cooked, if they dont do something players would leave and pvp would die, when they do something its things like this that do more harm to the game than good and again couse players to leave and the game would die eventely..

I wouldnt say all that, clearly from all the changes they've made to the pts they're hearing us out. Its not a big step, but it is a step in the right direction and they're trying to actually understand the problem. I've made a lot of comments about how zos doesn't play their own game lol and while I think largely that's true for pvp especially, whether wrong or not, they're obviously trying to improve and understand it more than they seemingly have in quite a while.

I have seen so many times where they ignored what pts commenters have said and rolled things out as is unchanged, so there is a huge difference now vs how they've operated in the past. And as many have already stated, they've said this is far from their last iteration of healing nerfs, but I hope they also take a look at overshielding as well.

So this is what its become? Just becouse they not ghosting us anymore we should be so starstrucked that we should accept any change they do no matter how stupid it is? Like they self saying all the time lately like its their new slogan «actions says more than words» what actions have we really seen? Not much at all. And now that the player base is getting smaller and smaller they cant really ignore us anymore can they? And this change dosent fix anything, they nerfed small scale and casual healers, and in a way semi-buffed ball groups becouse when everyone else gets weaker, they gets stronger and they wont be affected by this at all and i am sure wasnt the plan. And now we gonna have troll healers running around that buildt for healing as little as possible runing around nerfing players, and real healers would get hate and asked to stay away. This aint a small step in the right direction but a big step in the wrong direction.

Starstruck lol I wouldnt describe my reaction as all that, I believe credit should be given where credit is due. I complained quite a bit about a lot and while some things got addressed, not all did. However I expected none to get addressed. This gives me hope that in the future things that need changing or that fans want change might actually get changed for the better.

No one has to agree with me, was just stating how I felt, feel free to rage away. I just dont want them thinking that the fans will all be angry no matter what effort is shown. Positive reinforcement is good, so is venting frustration.

Lagzee · February 4

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

They specifically said - in about 5 different places - that this was not intended to be the final answer.

The problem was that they offerred a solution (50% heal reduction at 3 HoTs), which everyone called out as being too oppressive. They all called for a more nuanced solution, and pretty well 90% of people are calling for "Only allow one of each type of HoT so you don't have 15 Vigors on you at once."

That would require a bit of programming though, so they can't get that change into U49. Their options were to a) keep the oppressive one and adjust the numbers, or b) scrap it entirely. They let the PTS testers vote on which was preferable.

And they directly stated that a future patch will redo that into a more nuanced form, and they're looking at that exact thing that every other person is suggesting and thinking they're the first person to suggest it. It just cant' be done for U49.

Wanted to reiterate this point. This is not meant to be a permanent fix. We know that overall the player base wants a different solution than what was proposed earlier in the PTS cycle. Additionally we need more time to work those things out in between staying on schedule for class rebalancing. There are a lot of things to juggle here, so the poll was merely meant to be a stopgap measure in the meantime. But we fully intend to revisit this in a future update to get a better answer on a future PTS for every to test and work through. The poll was a new attempt to give some agency in what we do in the meantime, until we are able to get back to a more long-term fix. Fully understand that not everyone is happy with this, but it is meant to be temporary. Once we have a more clear understanding of where we can get a new attempt at a fix, we will make sure to follow up with everyone.

Thank you @tomofhyrule for highlighting.

ya i think its beating a dead horse at this point. ive spent the last 10 years pvping in this game and post scribing/subclassing this is one of the worst metas ive ever seen. As well as the worst performance. So trust and believe i want more meaningful changes than this done to heal stacking and shields. But if you guys are actually listening to feedback now and actually intend on fixing it properly in a future update then, for now, i think its just pointless to go on about it. For now.

But i will say, a future update is very vague. It was vague a couple weeks ago and its vague now. Which is fine, if you dont have an answer right now, then you dont. But i really hope you guys dont mean after the class refresh. waiting like 2 more years is just completely unacceptable. Even one year would be awful.

As i said in another thread, every new player that comes to this game, and wants to pvp, is met with 1 sided destruction in BGs, because of MMR being apparently gone with new BGs. A complete inability to play with their friends in BGs, because group que doesnt work at all anymore, for whatever reason. And a complete mess in cyrodiil with terrible performance and ball groups ruining the experience for the average player, and making performance worse.

Any new player, with any kind of pvp aspirations, is in for a rude awakening when they get to that point. And many will not stay, sadly. Things from zos feel 100x better now than they have for a long time, but this is an issue that really needs attention sooner rather than later. But either way, thank you for your work. and insight from that comment.

Aydh · February 5

Hello.
If the problem is heal/shield stacking. I'd like to propose three solutions.

1) limit instance stacking to 2 of any named heal. This won't impact PvE at all (2 healers per raid even if identically specd), Should dial down the PvP problem with immortal groups quite a lot. Let the stronger heal stack if there is a tie.

2) During the sorc rework, convert abilities in Dark Magic to Oblivion damage. This would be a hard counter to shield stacking.

3) Add oblivion damage to scribing, specifically on Wield Soul, and Soul Burst as these are thematic.

This would immediately reduce the healing provided by ball groups to 2 per person, incentivize real healers to play pvp (as stronger heals would be desired), and provide a counter to shield stacking by completely mitigating shields in a way that requires player action.

YandereGirlfriend · February 5

Aydh wrote: »

Hello.
If the problem is heal/shield stacking. I'd like to propose three solutions.

1) limit instance stacking to 2 of any named heal. This won't impact PvE at all (2 healers per raid even if identically specd), Should dial down the PvP problem with immortal groups quite a lot. Let the stronger heal stack if there is a tie.

2) During the sorc rework, convert abilities in Dark Magic to Oblivion damage. This would be a hard counter to shield stacking.

3) Add oblivion damage to scribing, specifically on Wield Soul, and Soul Burst as these are thematic.

This would immediately reduce the healing provided by ball groups to 2 per person, incentivize real healers to play pvp (as stronger heals would be desired), and provide a counter to shield stacking by completely mitigating shields in a way that requires player action.

Oblivion Damage has a fraught history in the game because the balance between "useless" and "oppressive" is like razor-thin.

On the one hand, it could allow more effective fighting against shield-users but on the other hand it invalidates Armor and all other defenses for literally everyone else and that can quickly turn into an Xv1 dystopia where high numbers of Oblivion Damage-wielding zergers can crush any smaller group because they are leveraging an overpowered mechanic that scales better with raw numbers than it does with skill.

I tend to think that Oblivion Damage is under-powered currently but I do not think that it should be the primary balancing mechanic for this issue.

Going to the source and nerfing the most problematic shields is the most direct and likely best route.

Lord_Hev · February 5

Militan1404 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If this is the best the balance team can come up with? If they dont understand it now and missfire so much patch note after patch note, it just not in their capability to balance this game. Target healing with out targeting shield stacking would only hurt the average joe and small scale players and not ball groups, ball group would be fine and proboly stronger after this change, zergs and small scale would be alot weaker after this. Also healers would be outlawed from pvp after this change, and would just drive away player once again.. it seems we are cooked, if they dont do something players would leave and pvp would die, when they do something its things like this that do more harm to the game than good and again couse players to leave and the game would die eventely..

I wouldnt say all that, clearly from all the changes they've made to the pts they're hearing us out. Its not a big step, but it is a step in the right direction and they're trying to actually understand the problem. I've made a lot of comments about how zos doesn't play their own game lol and while I think largely that's true for pvp especially, whether wrong or not, they're obviously trying to improve and understand it more than they seemingly have in quite a while.

I have seen so many times where they ignored what pts commenters have said and rolled things out as is unchanged, so there is a huge difference now vs how they've operated in the past. And as many have already stated, they've said this is far from their last iteration of healing nerfs, but I hope they also take a look at overshielding as well.

So this is what its become? Just becouse they not ghosting us anymore we should be so starstrucked that we should accept any change they do no matter how stupid it is? Like they self saying all the time lately like its their new slogan «actions says more than words» what actions have we really seen? Not much at all. And now that the player base is getting smaller and smaller they cant really ignore us anymore can they? And this change dosent fix anything, they nerfed small scale and casual healers, and in a way semi-buffed ball groups becouse when everyone else gets weaker, they gets stronger and they wont be affected by this at all and i am sure wasnt the plan. And now we gonna have troll healers running around that buildt for healing as little as possible runing around nerfing players, and real healers would get hate and asked to stay away. This aint a small step in the right direction but a big step in the wrong direction.

100% agree. I have severe trust issues with zos. It is refreshing to see some semblance of actual communication for once. This has been the most transparent they have ever been since forever on the forums. The poll highlights the issues and dilemma zos as a team have to deal with in terms of player feedback and input. If I did not have these trust issues, I feel like I may be a bit more open-minded with this battle-spirit heal reduction as "a test" that will be deleted when a proper fix/change is in place.

Olanero · February 5

Aydh wrote: »

1) limit instance stacking to 2 of any named heal. This won't impact PvE at all (2 healers per raid even if identically specd), Should dial down the PvP problem with immortal groups quite a lot. Let the stronger heal stack if there is a tie.

I won't comment on PvP Balance, because I got no idea about that, but this is untrue for PvE (true in most situations however).
The endboss of the current raid is usually played with vigor on dds as well, making the number much higher than 2 in PvE.
https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/19?boss=63

MincMincMinc · February 5

Olanero wrote: »

Aydh wrote: »

1) limit instance stacking to 2 of any named heal. This won't impact PvE at all (2 healers per raid even if identically specd), Should dial down the PvP problem with immortal groups quite a lot. Let the stronger heal stack if there is a tie.

I won't comment on PvP Balance, because I got no idea about that, but this is untrue for PvE (true in most situations however).
The endboss of the current raid is usually played with vigor on dds as well, making the number much higher than 2 in PvE.
https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/19?boss=63

Not to discredit this, but maybe yall PvE people should want this anti stacking concept........Everyone listed there is practically running the same copy and paste build. Same subclassing issue with pvp where there is nolonger any reason to avoid the BIS setup. If over time effects were limited to 1 of each you would force people to branch out build wise and choose different setups. With hybridization zos can start changing morphs back from being stam/mag versions and instead we can have slight tweaks like they were during original hybridization where people would run either morph to stack.

Remember zos can always tweak the boss fights based on the new power creep. You are better off having a better designed more varied build system first and then sort out the boss fights niche issues later. I always see PvE players falling into the trap of "oh but we cant change that, itll be impossible to do X mechanic" ......bruh people used to say that about the bloodspawn dps race. Most new players without gear dont even know that there is a dps race because thats how power creep works. Chances are whatever problem mechanic even without zos intervention will be powercrept out regardless. Even if it became impossible to do X mechanic, zos could tweak it to whatever the new norm would be.

Ive always thought zos should have shared forced cooldowns on proc sets for the caster and receiver. So multiple people cant have the same proc set go off on the receiver back to back. Preventing things like the sloads meta or more recently in PvP, the Tarnished meta. Not that tarnished was as bad, but rules like this would help prevent future abusive patches from plaguing the game for months on end.

YandereGirlfriend · February 5

Olanero wrote: »

Aydh wrote: »

1) limit instance stacking to 2 of any named heal. This won't impact PvE at all (2 healers per raid even if identically specd), Should dial down the PvP problem with immortal groups quite a lot. Let the stronger heal stack if there is a tie.

I won't comment on PvP Balance, because I got no idea about that, but this is untrue for PvE (true in most situations however).
The endboss of the current raid is usually played with vigor on dds as well, making the number much higher than 2 in PvE.
https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/19?boss=63

Sounds to me more like a balance issue with vOC.