Rush of Agony and Warden Charm

Radiate77 · February 3

Yudo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

You know they are going to pull and push back in choke points.
A bell needs to ring before charm or Roa hits you.

Roa should be a bit easier to avoid now just by blocking. That it does not trigger cc immune is the problem with the set. It will usually come with a stun before or after. I think this is the problematic part.

Charm is actually harder to avoid if you are not on the move, the area is way too large and a single person can lock down an entire choke point. IDK how things are conceptualised before release sometimes.

You are right that these effects need to be balanced, the clip is just not the greatest illustration on why.

So what kind of situation would be a good example? My PS5 is always saving video, all I have to do is remember to hit Share to make a permanent video afterward. Sometimes things get busy and I forget but I could look out for anything in particular. I am often the first defender at home keeps so I see these groups just running circles around the keeps often.

Perhaps something like:
You are pulled/cc, you break free, manage to get out and then still get pulled a second time and BONK.

You block the pull/cc, but just because charm is so ridiculously large, you end up caught anyway and BONK.

Maybe a combination of both.

Honestly I agree with you and you don't need to bring more video "evidence".
My point was, it is very easy for ppl to point out mistakes and use that to dismiss the entire point, so "clean" clips will be better.

First clip you seem immobile so maybe your reflex was to dodge, maybe you got spooked and dodge was your first reflex. You get pulled on that instance, followed by a charm. That is like a good 2-3s where you are unable to react. I would have blocked here but then again I have other ways of dealing with immobility, and if I get jumped like it is immediate block, never dodge. Dodging in ball situations is always a death sentence. You get hard focused solo, so you don't have much time to react either way. Still your clip illustrates well how RoA and charm, once caught, creates this unavoidable cc chain together. If you had blocked RoA, the cc chain is shorter, but you still need to deal with Charm.

Second clip you dodge to get out of the charm, fine, but the second aoe warning should have been 100% block and you would have survived there. This is maybe about experience or practice. There was no pressure, just two zones to avoid correctly. It does not illustrate the problem at all.

The combination of pulls and stuns are very unforgiving, and especially charm is way too large. There are many threads discussing this.

Did you even watch the second clip?

She clearly gets gap closed, then roll dodged to get as much distance as possible from the center of the AoE and the roll dodge STILL left her inside of the radius. Her clip demonstrated exactly what she was trying to, and that the set is out of control.

Saying, “well you should have blocked” completely discounts the natural reaction a player has to enemy AoEs… you get out of them as fast as possible because you never know if that AoE is what will inevitably kill you.

I saw a suggestion for a noise indicator, that would at least be something, because the set very clearly plays against your senses and punishes active awareness.

Yudo · February 3

Radiate77 wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

You know they are going to pull and push back in choke points.
A bell needs to ring before charm or Roa hits you.

Roa should be a bit easier to avoid now just by blocking. That it does not trigger cc immune is the problem with the set. It will usually come with a stun before or after. I think this is the problematic part.

Charm is actually harder to avoid if you are not on the move, the area is way too large and a single person can lock down an entire choke point. IDK how things are conceptualised before release sometimes.

You are right that these effects need to be balanced, the clip is just not the greatest illustration on why.

So what kind of situation would be a good example? My PS5 is always saving video, all I have to do is remember to hit Share to make a permanent video afterward. Sometimes things get busy and I forget but I could look out for anything in particular. I am often the first defender at home keeps so I see these groups just running circles around the keeps often.

Perhaps something like:
You are pulled/cc, you break free, manage to get out and then still get pulled a second time and BONK.

You block the pull/cc, but just because charm is so ridiculously large, you end up caught anyway and BONK.

Maybe a combination of both.

Honestly I agree with you and you don't need to bring more video "evidence".
My point was, it is very easy for ppl to point out mistakes and use that to dismiss the entire point, so "clean" clips will be better.

First clip you seem immobile so maybe your reflex was to dodge, maybe you got spooked and dodge was your first reflex. You get pulled on that instance, followed by a charm. That is like a good 2-3s where you are unable to react. I would have blocked here but then again I have other ways of dealing with immobility, and if I get jumped like it is immediate block, never dodge. Dodging in ball situations is always a death sentence. You get hard focused solo, so you don't have much time to react either way. Still your clip illustrates well how RoA and charm, once caught, creates this unavoidable cc chain together. If you had blocked RoA, the cc chain is shorter, but you still need to deal with Charm.

Second clip you dodge to get out of the charm, fine, but the second aoe warning should have been 100% block and you would have survived there. This is maybe about experience or practice. There was no pressure, just two zones to avoid correctly. It does not illustrate the problem at all.

The combination of pulls and stuns are very unforgiving, and especially charm is way too large. There are many threads discussing this.

Did you even watch the second clip?

She clearly gets gap closed, then roll dodged to get as much distance as possible from the center of the AoE and the roll dodge STILL left her inside of the radius. Her clip demonstrated exactly what she was trying to, and that the set is out of control.

Saying, “well you should have blocked” completely discounts the natural reaction a player has to enemy AoEs… you get out of them as fast as possible because you never know if that AoE is what will inevitably kill you.

I saw a suggestion for a noise indicator, that would at least be something, because the set very clearly plays against your senses and punishes active awareness.

I think trying to dodge out of AOE is what gets ppl in trouble. Natural reaction in any pull situation should be to block.
It is almost safer to stay in it block and try break free as soon as possible, than try to dodge roll out of it which exposes to everything. It looks like there is a stagger before the charm. I missed the second charm as I commented and was still editing this section.

I understand the dilemma though. You can block to avoid the stagger but then end up in the charm.
You can try to dodge to get out of the charm, but you are unable to avoid the stagger.

hoangdz · February 3

I've already known about the RoA + Charm combo, but I never got to experience fighting it first-hand. Well, just yesterday I finally had the chance when encountering a coordinated 5-man AD group on PC NA. 3 of them were using Warden Charm, and 1 of those 3 had RoA.

I'm not a squishy player by any means. Due to my outnumbered playstyle, I stack 35k resists back bar, 4.4k crit resist, Major + Minor Protection, AoE Major Maim, and 4 defensive CPs. Basically, I'm a tank, and this allowed me to survive their coordinated ult bomb multiple times. However, I do want to comment on the actual mechanics of this RoA + Charm combo.

The problem I have with several comments saying "just block" in this thread is that it's a very oversimplified statement. Yes, everyone can just block the RoA, but that also means 3 things:

1) You are a sitting duck until RoA finishes its animation, meaning you will lose X amount of stamina and health from getting pounded by multiple players. Not many people use SnB or Ice Staff to reduce block cost, making it a costly choice.

2) Even if you block the RoA, the Charm will still get you, which removes your block and sets you up for a full burst combo from the other team. This problem is compounded by the 1st point, as your stamina is already stressed by blocking previous attacks, making it even more taxing to break free and perform other defensive maneuvers.

3) You are also snared by the Charm, making your already slow movement-speed-during-block even slower. Actually, you might as well just stand still because with a 70% snare, you aren't going anywhere.

There are only 2 ways to counter this combo, one of which I actively used (because it was part of my skill layout):

1) Streak/BoL
2) Immovable potions

One counter requires committing to a skill line, which forces you to limit your own theorycrafting (not that it's any good currently lol), while the other requires saving your potion for that specific moment, which can be pretty expensive and also limiting (remember how people complained about needing detect potions for stealth? Same idea here)

So yes, "just block" is a valid answer, but also a very unnuanced one.

nightbringer1993 · February 3

I tried immovable potions. And when I saw that they were not working against charm I stopped using them.

Yudo · February 3

Blocking can helps avoid the initial stagger/pull. It does not solve the charm situation.
The only thing that remotely comes close to an attempt to counter charm (without streak or speed build) is to sprint jump, and then block in the air. That way your block is up, and hopefully do not get pulled, but you are moving a good amount to escape charm range. This is too high of a requirement and should be looked at. This is one of those things that does not need to wait for any class rework.

nightbringer1993 · February 3

The thing I don't understand is that we have been reporting this charm problem since scribing came out and ZOS did absolutly nothing but buff the warden class. I just went out of IC and all those wardens running arround made me sick and I left.

Is ZOS ever gonna trully listen to their players?

Poss · February 3

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

The thing I don't understand is that we have been reporting this charm problem since scribing came out and ZOS did absolutly nothing but buff the warden class. I just went out of IC and all those wardens running arround made me sick and I left.

Is ZOS ever gonna trully listen to their players?

This is the issue I have. A quick search will show dozens of threads about this godawful skill and not a single response from ZoS. It is way too powerful and is the single reason why everyone in Cyrodiil right now is a warden. They overhauled the Arcanist mastery pretty darn quick when they noticed Raids were made up entirely of arcanist DDs but the Warden mastery hasn’t been touched.

The charm is so wildly used that you are guaranteed to be charmed on cool-down

I maintain my belief that the issue OP is experiencing is NOT RoA but the charm epidemic. Since the nerf, RoA is so unreliable and easy to counter

nightbringer1993 · February 3

Sometimes I feel like the classes those devs are using are DK and Warden, and that they don't want to nerf themselves. And if that is the case then it is seriously misstreating their customers.

joergino · February 3

I don't think any dev plays this game. It's their job. Why would they waste their time on this thing in their free time?

BXR_Lonestar · February 3

I have no problems with Rush of Agony at this point. If you are a wise PVP player, you can learn to anticipate it and counter/defend against it.

My big problem is with the charm. It wasn't an issue when pure classing was a thing because it was limited to wardens, but now it seems like EVERYONE is a warden base character because of the charm. Warden also has one of the best subclass skill lines in PVP with the beetles and netch both on the same bar. When you are fighting in an outnumbered situation, which my faction ALWAYS is, it is literally impossible to move sometimes or cast an ult or do anything with 20 of these going off.

There is no CC immunity for charm. It hits you through block, and it is delayed in effect so you often don't realize that you are still under its effects until it is too late. It is uneffected by unstoppable potions.

There is literally ZERO counter to the charm other than to just not be at the wrong place at the wrong time, which is impossible to do in PVP, especially in outnumbered situations.

The Charm needs to be changed to obey standard crowd control rules or it just needs to be removed from the game until they rebalance the classes (and presumably the class scripts).

I can tell you that I've played much less PVP this event largely because of the imbalance in the faction numbers (Red can pop-lock all of the campaigns during prime time - no alliance can even come close) and the propagation of the charm is making for a really miserable gaming experience. We've actually ended up playing more sewers than anything because at least in the sewers we aren't outnumbered 50-20 every fight and facing multiple charms - not to mention people exploiting the shield toss glitch that renders you unable to do anything for 6+ seconds.

BXR_Lonestar · February 3

Radiate77 wrote: »

DovahkiinHealsYou wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

DovahkiinHealsYou wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

DovahkiinHealsYou wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

DovahkiinHealsYou wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

DovahkiinHealsYou wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

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Of course I agree with the fact that RoA is not avoided by roll dodging, but should that be the case? I would love to debate that.
[edited to remove quote]

Your best option to avoid it is to block, not role dodge. You can also block, and then streak out or use a charge ability to get out, but dodge rolling doesn't seem to save you - it seems to make it worse.

IMO, they should have changed rush to just pull at the character location at the time it goes off, and there should be a small AOE indicator around the character proccing it to show the pull zone so that people can avoid it, kind of similar to Dark Convergence, which has a telegraph too.

nightbringer1993 · February 3

Once again, next patch ZOS needs to be ready to recieve many support help messages due to people"s characters being stuck in wall in IC, and unnable to break free because they have 100+ tel var and can't port to cyro.

Good job ZOS not listening to your customers.

katanagirl1 · February 3

Thanks for the very helpful responses and discussion here. These later posts are most excellently worded and respectful of someone who is experienced in PvP but does not yet understand everything that is going on. When I started becoming serious about Cyrodiil and was trying to get better, I joined what I thought was a respected DC guild, but many of them were campaign-hopping transfactionals who were more interested in farming other players for AP rather than winning the campaign. I have mostly learned by watching other solo players in my faction.

I asked about what situations would be more helpful for the discussion with the goal of most effectively demonstrating the issues with this set and skill in Cyrodiil combat. I don’t feel like you were requiring that I bring more evidence but I do feel like video evidence might help rather than the many verbal discussions that we have had here about it.

I hope to get the next video up here soon because it might very well be a better illustration.

katanagirl1 · February 3

Ok, here is a video of me blocking during an RoA pull. I get charmed during the block and aoe and am killed by the damage from only one player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdhxKGQrUZc&list=PLGGjwEyVKCjpNeVP6-MCuwzs0s7bzrkc9&index=110

El_Borracho · February 3

@BXR_Lonestar is 100% correct about charm being the issue, but the ROA combo with charm exacerbates the problem. You have to (1) block the ROA pull, (2) weather the attack from the group, (3) then break free from the charm, and (4) get out of the AOE (because there is usually a bomber who accompanies the ROA/Charm fanboys), all of which will sap your stamina resources. Meanwhile the group uses little to no resources of their own to "maintain" the ROA + Charm attack. And this is all if there is no lag.

ROA is still annoying but it is not the problem. If anything, its what others have said, a crutch set used by ball group aficionados. Once their grand plans don't succeed, you usually have 2-3 seconds where it is open season on them before they realize it didn't work like it used to.

If anything, I have seen that in organized, smaller groups, charm is a menace. There really is no cooldown in that situation. It needs to be fixed

Yudo · February 4

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Ok, here is a video of me blocking during an RoA pull. I get charmed during the block and aoe and am killed by the damage from only one player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdhxKGQrUZc&list=PLGGjwEyVKCjpNeVP6-MCuwzs0s7bzrkc9&index=110

Yeah this clip really shows how BS charm is. You counter the pull by reaction correctly, the damage was being mitigated, but all that was negated with the charm. Unavoidable cc should not be of this size and require some form of precision.

Just to compare with streak which is also unavoidable, it does not "proc" you need to spend a gcd on it and it requires a bit more precision to land as well.

Major_Mangle · February 4

While charm does need adjustment to it's cc effects, I think a good change to the skill is to also only have it active when using a warden skill or a warden ultimate. It's a class script after all and should encourage usage/synergy with class skills.

Because another issue with the class script is how low cooldown it has and how it lines up perfectly with cc immunity cooldown. Having a powerful "aoe denial"/aoe cc is fine, but not when it can be spammed in the way currently can. Limit the synergy to only active with warden ultimates would fix this, while still allowing it to remain powerful (while also fixing the issue with charm ofc).

BXR_Lonestar · February 4

El_Borracho wrote: »

@BXR_Lonestar is 100% correct about charm being the issue, but the ROA combo with charm exacerbates the problem. You have to (1) block the ROA pull, (2) weather the attack from the group, (3) then break free from the charm, and (4) get out of the AOE (because there is usually a bomber who accompanies the ROA/Charm fanboys), all of which will sap your stamina resources. Meanwhile the group uses little to no resources of their own to "maintain" the ROA + Charm attack. And this is all if there is no lag.

ROA is still annoying but it is not the problem. If anything, its what others have said, a crutch set used by ball group aficionados. Once their grand plans don't succeed, you usually have 2-3 seconds where it is open season on them before they realize it didn't work like it used to.

If anything, I have seen that in organized, smaller groups, charm is a menace. There really is no cooldown in that situation. It needs to be fixed

You're actually UNDERSTATING the problem in your description of the chain of events, because in order to defend against ROA, you have to stand there and hold block at least 2 seconds while you wait for the pull to go off. But while you are doing this, charm has a 2 second delayed effect so if you are hit with charm while you are blocking, your character will drop block and start walking towards the player that charmed you, meaning if you wish to survive, you have to try to break free before the bombs go off, and then try to roll dodge away before the bomb goes off.

Most quote-unquote "ball groups" on other factions run groups of way more than 12 players, and usually there are 2-3 players running pulls, if not more. So even if you survive that first pull, you are going to get pulled again (Because you blocked the first one) and you are going to get blown up anyways.

My big problem here isn't RoA though. My problem is the sheer number of charms that are out there and its interaction/combined effect with RoA. Not only that, but Charm seems to have a role in every glitched skill/exploit that players are using now, and I haven't even mentioned the fact that it will cause you to go into walls and structures. And heaven help you if you homed Greyhost, which is typically poplocked during prime time. Most often you will have to turn your game off because you can't get out of combat to use the get me unstuck feature, and by the time you are able to get back into the game (not logging out will cause you problems), you are likely going to have to wait 30 minutes or more to get back into the campaign.

IMO, just one of the many reasons why subclassing the way they did it is so broken and why they should just bite the bullet and go back to U45 and make any changes from there.

Alchimiste1 · February 4

I find that both ROA and Charm in their current state are both easily delt with individually. The problem is when you combine them, especially with the immobilize script. Using them together basically leaves no counterplay unless you have an immov not on cool down.

If you roll dodge you get pulled by ROA into a stun.
If you hold block charm will stun you.

Not sure if there is an easy fix. Maybe make it so charm spawn at the initial location of Lotus vs after the teleport.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · February 4

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I find that both ROA and Charm in their current state are both easily delt with individually. The problem is when you combine them, especially with the immobilize script. Using them together basically leaves no counterplay unless you have an immov not on cool down.

If you roll dodge you get pulled by ROA into a stun.
If you hold block charm will stun you.

Not sure if there is an easy fix. Maybe make it so charm spawn at the initial location of Lotus vs after the teleport.

This would still cause the issue if the player casts the skill whilst on top of you. Either you should be able to 'escape' from a stun of this manor with correct gameplay or the stun should be less punishing. In this instance simply adding a CC immunity onto Rush of Agony would help because then you could allow yourself to be pulled without suffering a secondary CC.

Also lets be honest, on Paper and non-lag gameplay situations rush is easily avoidable however in real scenarios and cyrodiil lag players often get pulled despite blocking for a long amount of time because the pull is delayed or their positioning is desync'd from their screen position.

Simply applying 2 fixes would improve both worlds 1) Rush gives CC immunity 2) Charm converted into a fixed place stun in battlespirit environments similar to how fear was changed.

joshisanonymous · February 4

Radiate77 wrote: »

If you block, you die from everyone who got pulled, ...

Yeah I'm always confused by people saying "just don't be near your allies," because that's just not practical in the vast majority of fights.

For the record, I wouldn't mind this sort of thing if it took some coordination with at least a couple others to do. It's clearly meant to be a zerg breaker, but since it's incredibly for any solo player to pull off, it's just everywhere all the time.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · February 5

I get what everyone is saying, yes I play PvP.
But at what point do the nerfs stop? Its always going to be something. It was the ultimate gain on the magma shell we all loved and especially cherished in trials. That got nerfed. And there are still unkillable tanks in PvP. It was the Warden's Ultimate. That got nerfed. It was countless things about the sorcerer, that got nerfed. The arguments about the pets count, ect.
Its always going to be something. What is next on the chopping block?
Damage shields? Or healing? The nerfs need to stop. Ten years of this and the same issues persist over and over. Or at a very minimum have no effect whatsoever on PvE.
How can we realistically stop the ongoing nerf cycle?

Thumbless_Bot · February 5

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

I get what everyone is saying, yes I play PvP.
But at what point do the nerfs stop? Its always going to be something. It was the ultimate gain on the magma shell we all loved and especially cherished in trials. That got nerfed. And there are still unkillable tanks in PvP. It was the Warden's Ultimate. That got nerfed. It was countless things about the sorcerer, that got nerfed. The arguments about the pets count, ect.
Its always going to be something. What is next on the chopping block?
Damage shields? Or healing? The nerfs need to stop. Ten years of this and the same issues persist over and over. Or at a very minimum have no effect whatsoever on PvE.
How can we realistically stop the ongoing nerf cycle?

Who knows what is next but when things are bad they need to be fixed. Your argument is basically that there will always be bad things so we should, what, stop fixing them? If zos introduces something absolutely bad they should un-introduce it or adjust it. Charm and ROA should have never, ever been added to pvp. Like, literally never should have ever functioned with battlespirit active.

Separate pve and pvp and remove.these things from pvp and leave it in pve. That's fine by me.

Major_Mangle · February 5

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

I get what everyone is saying, yes I play PvP.
But at what point do the nerfs stop? Its always going to be something. It was the ultimate gain on the magma shell we all loved and especially cherished in trials. That got nerfed. And there are still unkillable tanks in PvP. It was the Warden's Ultimate. That got nerfed. It was countless things about the sorcerer, that got nerfed. The arguments about the pets count, ect.
Its always going to be something. What is next on the chopping block?
Damage shields? Or healing? The nerfs need to stop. Ten years of this and the same issues persist over and over. Or at a very minimum have no effect whatsoever on PvE.
How can we realistically stop the ongoing nerf cycle?

Ohh stop with "but my PvE" sob stories. Majority of changes that affects PvE are because of their interactions in PvE, not PvP. People blaming PvP for PvE changes in ESO is the biggest overdose of copium I've seen. To adress the things you mentioned:

* Magma Armor was specifically nerfed because it's (ab)use in infinite archive, even stated so in the patch notes on the PTS it was changed. In PvP people mainly use corrosive unless they're on a support role in a organised comp. But again, that's a PvE motivated change

* Sorc and specifically hardened ward was overdue a nerf because of how overtuned it was. Sorc survivability in PvE was never an issue and you rarely ever needed to slot the shield to begin with. The pet count change zos did not too long ago was a performance motivated change that had nothing specifically to do with either PvE or PvP.

* And yes shield size, heal and shield stacking should be next to the chopping block because they're tools/mechanics that are crazy overperforming in both PvE and PvP.

PvE isn't and shouldn't be some unchecked powercreep fantasy land that never receives balance adjustments, and it's wild to me how people believe this.

The nature of MMO's is that stuff changes, and content/skills/classes should receive balance adjustments frequently. ESO has been stale for so long that I actually wish they did more frequent balance changes between PTS cycles to adjust overperforming skills in both PvP and PvE.

spartaxoxo · February 5

Damage shields are only over performing in PvP. They're fine in PvE.

Radiate77 · February 5

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Damage shields are only over performing in PvP. They're fine in PvE.

That’s an opinion for sure.
Damage Shields are trivializing PvE.

DreadKnight · February 5

Warden charm is not only game breaking but Lore breaking too. Wardens are supposed to be the masters of plants and nature, they aren't supposed to be able to bend the minds of humanoids. Crux gen was deleted from Arcanists class mastery, the same needs to be done to Warden charm in my opinion.

spartaxoxo · February 5

Radiate77 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Damage shields are only over performing in PvP. They're fine in PvE.

That’s an opinion for sure.
Damage Shields are trivializing PvE.

No. They're not. Most of PvE is designed from the ground up to be trivial. The stuff the most challenging stuff in trials still requires prog groups because it's not trivial. The damage shields are strong enough to enable some group stuff to be used as a challenge for the best of the best players but that's about it for the PvE "issues," with them. The last thing we need is less people wanting to engage in challenging PvE content.

BXR_Lonestar · February 5

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I find that both ROA and Charm in their current state are both easily delt with individually. The problem is when you combine them, especially with the immobilize script. Using them together basically leaves no counterplay unless you have an immov not on cool down.

If you roll dodge you get pulled by ROA into a stun.
If you hold block charm will stun you.

Not sure if there is an easy fix. Maybe make it so charm spawn at the initial location of Lotus vs after the teleport.

What makes this even MORE toxic is when a faction already has a superior numbers advantage on a regular basis - and then you face 20+ players running this same combination of skills, nearly all of their damage are wardens to take advantage of charm, and everyone else is running around with the glitched shield-toss ability (shield toss + charm + imobilize has been causing major glitches) and it creates a PVP environment that is just straight up toxic and it is one of the reasons I've been curbing the amount of PVP I play.

Ordinarily I love to fight outnumbered, but not when the team with every advantage going for them also uses every exploit the game has to offer to further their advantage.

IMO something is going to need to happen for this game to hit critical mass in order to force them to make some changes that they don't seem to want to make. I'll say it again, this problem would be much more easily contained if subclassing was simply reversed.

El_Borracho · February 5

@CatalinaWineMixer2 There is nerfing because too many people complain and the devs cave. For example, Way of Fire, Maarselok, Azureblight, Thurvokun, original Elegance, and Pyrebrand. Nothing was wrong with those sets. None of them were OP. But so many people complained, they got nerfed. Like you, I am against that kind of nerfing.

However, there are sets and skills that can be introduced into the game that have massive flaws that turn into exploits nobody imagined. For example, original Ravager (when combined with Relequen), original Zaan (when combined with Elf Bane), Savage Werewolf, and the original Oakensoul. All of those had massive power advantages to the point that it broke the game. Charm is that right now. These kind of mistakes need to be fixed because its bad for the over health of PVP