I saw about 100 posts saying weapon and spell damage should be restored to whip. I guess ZOS either didn't see or didn't care.

This in addition to a number of things like the crit damage addition, the changes to corrosive, the lack of attention to frag shield and talons.

I don't know why I expected an entire class refresh to not end up with PVP nerfs and dead abilities unaddressed but I guess I haven't been playing this game long enough for my optimism to be totally disintegrated.

I’m thankful for the changes made to Standard, so thank you. Honestly, it seems like a really great opener. Standard will lead the way while Leap will follow closely behind as far as rotations go. This allows for both abilities to coexist - each with their own unique traits. Giving more options on what it means to express pure DK playstyles.

Overall, I’m very happy for the efforts made for a pure DK to rival with subclass builds. Personally, I’ve always loved class identity as I feel it was “an extension of myself.” Don’t care what anyone says, I still enjoy it and I’m happy to see it getting honored.

Excited for the other class reworks.

I wanted to say thank you for bringing up changes earlier then expected. This is still probably the best PTS the ESO community probably experienced in terms of communication.

In terms of what was adjusted I think the standard of might change was needed. The ult cost too much before and I usually had something else I could use instead like barrier or war horn (same cost of 250). It seems to be in a better spot now. Still think there should be some light fire dmg on it like with permafrost on the warden skill lines since the dmg it does is not even noticeable but at the very least we feel it does something. From what I'm seeing it does 433 every second rather than 3279 every second but increases duration of skill (which increases major protection length), reduces movement speed, and increases chances of chilled status effect. I still don't understand why the standard has the dmg completely removed while it acts in a similar fashion by comparison.

The other changes are good and I don't see too many issues there however I still have some pain points that I wanted to list out anyway. (some of them are repeats on what is being said here but its still worth repeating)

1. Avalanche is still a very stressful, unfun, passive IMO. It takes 50 seconds (5 secs per 1%) to get to 10% more dmg (max). Most battles do not last that long and the ones that do, will have invincible phases which makes the downside of the passive (losing stacks every 2 seconds when you are not doing dmg) very stressful for a dps. I don't see why the reverse of these timers cannot be implemented. Every 2 seconds gain stacks, every 5 seconds of not doing dmg lose stacks. Its less stressful and leans in to some sets I've seen and how they function a bit.

2. Talons: It bears repeating that these morphs really need a checkup to just do more....well burning honestly isn't bad; choking talons on the other hand is very uninteresting and a lot of us are not using it. Minor maim isn't really something we care about too much, I feel like something else could be done here, like an area pull for instance (claws dragging a bunch of enemies to you). Atm burning is the only morph every DK player using this skill is going to use.

3. Eruption (hearth and home): Morph is not being seen as useful in any role (including pvp). Reduction in speed and major protection are 2 things that can be done elsewhere and better. The morph was brought up as the tank morph but as a tank, it bears repeating, a tank will never pick this morph. Minor fortitude and heroism is a much better set to have on a tank since it help supports the group more. Not to mention we prefer taunting, pulling, and immobilizing enemies. Slowing movement speed doesn't do much for us. Considering that healers and tanks prefer hearthfire, this morph would be better suited for a dps with a fire dmg application and increase in penetration while inside the morph (DK lacks a penetration increase outside the corrosive ult and this would be a way for it to be presented since it will only help in PVE and very rarely in pvp).

4. Considering that the names have never been mentioned in the notes I don't think they will be changed back or given better names. It's not a deal breaker for me, but some of them really do sound silly. I'm going to be honest and say if there were 3 names to absolutely change 100% it would be wing buffet (chicken wings), hearth and home (skyrim dlc), and protect the brood (long name, sounds more like a statement, doesn't work for dragon lore in the elder scrolls universe). If those 3 got changed I would be fine with the other name changes.

Overall, I still think the changes are still good and I especially like the changes with draconic leap and its morphs. These were the noticeable areas where I think if they got address would have made the DK amazing.

I don't know if we could get an answer on whether or not the DK skills will still be monitored after the update goes live? Most players would like to know that pain points may be addressed throughout the year rather than waiting a year or more for them to be adjusted.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Molten Whip's 15% damage increase against monsters is far too high, and it's entirely predictable that it will be abused in Fatecarver builds. Since Searing Claw's duration has been reduced to 10 seconds, it's easy to stack three layers of the Whip buff in combat. Players simply need to be a main-DK and choose Ardent Flame / Herald of the Tome / any to gain the 15% damage increase against monsters, an additional burning damage buff and chance (which can stack with Arc's Psychic Lesion), resource recovery when burning, and an additional 5% fire damage duel. This will make Fatecarver builds in PvE overpowered!

Don't forget, almost all mainstream PvE builds have Fire Enchanting in their front row, and some use Fire Staff and Elemental Wall in the back row. Giving a skill a 15% damage increase against monsters, the same amount as Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet, is clearly unreasonable.

Please slightly increase Molten Whip's damage and reduce its damage increase against monsters. This approach satisfies both PvE and PvP players and encourages them to use Molten Whip instead of just treating it as a buff in the bar.

Addendum: Even in the live servers, Molten Whip is already being used as a buff in the bar; In the ESO-Logs, such as RGhm, this build has almost become the standard answer. Giving it a 15% monster damage buff will only exacerbate this situation.

This is a screenshot of RGhm's Log, showing that the whip has been abused by Arc-subclasses as a pure buff.


This possible builds after U49：

"This effect only activates if you are a Dragonknight"

Does this refer to the base class only, or the base class plus the three DK skill lines?

If it’s the latter, then I don’t see an issue. If not, this could be a real concern.

I get why other DK players don't like it, but personally I'm very happy to see PvP DK being moved away from Molten Whip and Corrosive towards other spammables or ults.

Corrosive has never done anything good for PvP. It's either busted or useless. The actual gameplay is garbage. Stall for 10 seconds, run away, or die instantly. Users would attempt to "camoflauge" the intended vfx and sfx cues so opponents don't immediately turtle or disengage.

The iconic DK ults Standard and Leap deserve more buffs for PvP.

Molten Whip was never really used as a proper spammable in PvP, it was used for the passive buff and its potential to cheese instant kill combos, especially on Corrosive specs. Mandatory passive buff slotting is as bad for the build system as instant deaths.

Let's instead see some buffs for Flame Lash and Stone Fist as PvP spammables.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Molten Whip's 15% damage increase against monsters is far too high

XD Man. Talk about kicking something when it's already down.

This is why DK can't have anything.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

And now for pvp its absolutely good for nothing, totally dead skill

You do realize that compared to live, new molten has been massively buffed, not nerfed? It's just that there are more ways to play DK now

xylena wrote: »

I get why other DK players don't like it, but personally I'm very happy to see PvP DK being moved away from Molten Whip and Corrosive towards other spammables or ults.

Corrosive has never done anything good for PvP. It's either busted or useless. The actual gameplay is garbage. Stall for 10 seconds, run away, or die instantly. Users would attempt to "camoflauge" the intended vfx and sfx cues so opponents don't immediately turtle or disengage.

The iconic DK ults Standard and Leap deserve more buffs for PvP.

Molten Whip was never really used as a proper spammable in PvP, it was used for the passive buff and its potential to cheese instant kill combos, especially on Corrosive specs. Mandatory passive buff slotting is as bad for the build system as instant deaths.

Let's instead see some buffs for Flame Lash and Stone Fist as PvP spammables.

Problem with stone fist is that it’s a stam spammable that’s not an option as far as magicka characters go

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Man, this is depressing. I remember people joking about DK getting a nerf because zos was paying attention to it and while that was something I was worried about, I didn't think it'd actually happen.

The visuals are great, but getting nerfed in PvP because of PvE is.... such a meme. What y'all did with molten whip is so annoying and uncalled for. It would be so easy to just adjust the effect to have separate functions for pve and pvp. Why can't y'all just do this with battle spirit?

At least Corrosive isn't totally dead.

At this point all I can hope for is other classes seeing the same treatment, but I doubt it, guess I'll still be subclassing.

Like they could just keep the old weapon and spell damage on stacks +3% damage done to monsters per stack and it would have been equal but to straight nerf it into the ground for pvp is actually just disappointing I actually thought we would avoid that with this refresh thing but clearly we are coming out of it with pure Dragonknights still being mid-low tier for pvp hugely reduced my excitement for it to go live such a shame

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The goal was to make DK a viable choice to subclassing right, if that is still the aim, this misses the mark for sure.

I think the goal is that eventually pure DK would be a viable alternative to Subclassing. The only problem though is that Subclassing is cracked OP (particularly looking at lines like Assassination and Herald), so the only way to make current-DK compete with current-Subclassing is to make it just as OP… which then leads to problems later when those lines come down.

I think that’s what one of the goals is with this “DKs get extra damage” condition on whip. I’ll admit, I very much dislike the implementation of Subclassing, but I do not like tying a skill to a specific Class. I’m reading that as a temporary fix to give PvE DK some power to compete with Arcbladeplars until those lines are addressed in 2027, but even then it still seems to suggest that the meta will just shift to everyone being forced to bring a DK and then Subclass Assassination and Herald to get a DK bonus on Fatecarver until that’s changed. I really would like that condition changed before the patch drops.

But it does look like the balance is going to be in an odd state until Summer 2027 when they finally get to Nightblade though, considering how overloads Assassination is for every single build. And of course I hope that when they do the other Classes, DK will still get balance passes each time so once they finally finish Arc at the end of 2027 that everything will be balanced instead of now having the earliest lines like DK being all out of whack at that point.

Overall, I think the changes we’ve seen over the last three weeks have been good. A lot has been done in a short time, and most of it has had positive results. I hope DK continues to receive a similar level of focus in the next PTS cycle, so final adjustments can be made based on actual gameplay over the coming month before attention shifts to other classes.

Since not much is likely to change from this point, I’ll just add my final two cents:

- The Molten Whip damage buff should not end up simply further overtuning subclass/Fatecarver setups. Pure DK feels like it is in a very good (and fun) spot in PvE right now hope you can find a way to make it stay like this.

- Each class should have a clear identity when played primarily with its own skill lines. For DK, that identity is a melee-focused playstyle built around sustained pressure over time. Any DK damage increases should ideally come from improving the Avalanche passive rather than overtuning Whip or adding crit damage. Avalanche could also be made more defensive while offering stronger damage at max stacks, especially for DoTs. Personally, I’d also like to see stacks removed when leaving combat, so you don’t feel pressured about maintaining them. they’d simply reset. I realize I might be in the minority on that last point though.

When you encounter a DK, it should feel important to deal with them quickly, because you know their pressure and defense will only grow stronger as the fight goes on. I’d like to see the same design focus applied to other classes as well such as emphasizing burst for some and range for others when playing pure class setups.

Callosum wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

And now for pvp its absolutely good for nothing, totally dead skill

You do realize that compared to live, new molten has been massively buffed, not nerfed? It's just that there are more ways to play DK now

It absolutely isn't, not for pvp. Weapon damage added something to your entire kit, boosting not only all sources of damage but your heals as well until you released the combo. Now all it does is increase the damage for whip specifically, nothing else is augmented. You can make an argument for "its not as dead as others are saying" but its nowhere near as useful as it was before even with the 33 percent damage increase per seething fury stack. Thats a loss of damage to all sources for dots, including bleeding as well as fire, multiple skills etc as well as the leap into the lash.

The avalanche passive's damage increase stack is too slow for a burst its just more pressure and wouldn't make up for that wd loss either as its only a total of ten percent I believe. All in all it is a loss for DK as a whole. The 10 percent crit damage is also not cutting it.

The goal was to make DK a viable choice to subclassing right, if that is still the aim, this misses the mark for sure.

You’re exaggerating this. Whip has been buffed: the damage per stack was increased from 20% to 33%, and stacks are now generated by every DK ability.

It’s still a very strong spammable option and can be slotted purely for burst combos, but it’s no longer mandatory to slot it just for the passive effect.

None of that matters when you look at how much it decreases your total combo, the stacking of fury isnt just about whip, its whip, FoO, leap execution etc, that stacks up. That meager buff to whip specifically will not make up for the 300 wd increase loss.

People saying otherwise don't pvp much with dk

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

Hello All,

We know there’s a desire to see some further adjustments made to some Dragonknight abilities, and wanted to share the upcoming adjustments for Week 4 of the U49 PTS.

Here's what you can expect to see on the PTS on Monday of next week:

• Hearthfire: Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs didn't update their target sorting each tick. We've seen the reports that this is a larger issue with inconsistent ally targeting, and we'll be digging into a larger pass sometime in the future when time allows.

• Lava Whip
  • Molten Whip: Seething Fury is no longer deactivated while Engulfing Dragonfire is slotted.

• Dragonfire
  • Engulfing Dragonfire: This morph's stacking mechanic has been retuned to ensure this morph doesn't eclipse others, while also making its ramping effects easier to achieve consistently.  Now increases in damage done by 5% every tick, regardless of enemies hit, up to 50% maximum, rather than increasing in damage done by 20% every other tick, if an enemy was hit, up to a maximum of 80%.
    
    [Developer Comment]
    We originally tried avoiding bringing this morph down in power while finding alternative solutions that enhanced other Dragonknight abilities, but in the process we've heard that the solutions felt too restrictive and unintuitive to the class kit, so we're loosening those restrictions and instead toning down the power of this morph so it still stands as a fun alternative with some contextual strengths.

• Dragonknight Standard: Reduced this Ultimate and all of its morphs' cost to 200, down from 250.  Reduced the base damage reduction to 7-10% based on rank, down from 9-12%. Reduced the base Weapon and Spell Damage to 270-300, down from 345-375.
  • Standard of Might: This morph sees the same changes to values as the base morph. This morph now grants the caster 15% damage done, 15% reduced damage taken, and 300 Weapon and Spell Damage while inside the area, rather than 475 Weapon and Spell Damage and 12% reduced damage taken.
    
    [Developer Comment]
    We're making some adjustments to the power of this Ultimate between its morph supportive damage version and outright damage version to try and give them a healthier place in the meta.  By reducing the cost to aid in uptimes we're gently reducing the supportive power, while also trying to give back some of the power to the caster to try and deliver on the sentiment many have expressed of wanting the "original" Standard back.  While we're not going to exactly revert this Ultimate in efforts to avoid oversaturating Ardent Flame in the context of subclassing in the long term, we're willing to juice these values up for the time being.

• Superheated Ward
  • Magma Fist: This morph now gains an additional effect when hitting a target at max stacks of Heat Shock, which increases the damage done of your next Magma Fist by 66% within 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds. Heat Shock now lasts for 7 seconds, rather than 10, and increases damage taken by 66, up from 33 (originally 65 pre PTS).
    
    [Developer Comment]
    We're trying two adjustments here - moving Heat Shock closer to the original duration and power to hit on the feedback we've seen where many veteran players expressed the desire to see some of the mastery with this morph's upkeep return.  Additionally, we're adding a little bit of power to this morph so it feels like it offers the caster something as well, so there's an alternate playstyle for Stamina focused DKs.

• Magma Armor
  • Corrosive Armor: This morph's penetration now once again only applies to direct damage attacks.  Adjusted the damage limit to 6% of your Max Health, rather than 12% (originally 3% pre PTS). Increased the damage done by 12.5%, and it now targets all enemies instead of only monsters.
    
    [Developer Comment]
    We're walking back the penetration changes made from PTS 1 for this (and Onslaught) based on a lot of the PvP community feedback we've seen. As such, we're also lessening some of the penalties incurred - while still keeping a sharper trade off with this Ultimate compared to before. In general it'll still have a higher damage ceiling compared to live, while sacrificing some duration and survivability - but to far less of an extreme.

The changes reflected above are what you will most likely see when Update 49 launches, barring any unforeseen circumstances.

We want to thank everyone for their valuable input during this PTS cycle. We’ll have an article next week which discusses the extent of the Dragonknight refresh changes we’ve made based on your feedback and a more in-depth look at the PTS process, so be on the lookout for more info soon.

this looks pretty good, but did you guys not see any feedback about molten whip? Or is it just being ignored? This change is so uncalled for. Even if the damage was dropped to like 50-75 per stack. But to nerf it like this because some people are just slotting it for damage in pve is so backwards. Why not just give it high bonus damage to monsters? That solves the problem. I cannot stress enough how much of a massive nerf 300 weapon damage is for this skill, especially in pvp.
@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

Hello All,

We know there’s a desire to see some further adjustments made to some Dragonknight abilities, and wanted to share the upcoming adjustments for Week 4 of the U49 PTS.

Here's what you can expect to see on the PTS on Monday of next week:

• Hearthfire: Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs didn't update their target sorting each tick. We've seen the reports that this is a larger issue with inconsistent ally targeting, and we'll be digging into a larger pass sometime in the future when time allows.

• Lava Whip
  • Molten Whip: Seething Fury is no longer deactivated while Engulfing Dragonfire is slotted.

• Dragonfire
  • Engulfing Dragonfire: This morph's stacking mechanic has been retuned to ensure this morph doesn't eclipse others, while also making its ramping effects easier to achieve consistently.  Now increases in damage done by 5% every tick, regardless of enemies hit, up to 50% maximum, rather than increasing in damage done by 20% every other tick, if an enemy was hit, up to a maximum of 80%.
    
    [Developer Comment]
    We originally tried avoiding bringing this morph down in power while finding alternative solutions that enhanced other Dragonknight abilities, but in the process we've heard that the solutions felt too restrictive and unintuitive to the class kit, so we're loosening those restrictions and instead toning down the power of this morph so it still stands as a fun alternative with some contextual strengths.

• Dragonknight Standard: Reduced this Ultimate and all of its morphs' cost to 200, down from 250.  Reduced the base damage reduction to 7-10% based on rank, down from 9-12%. Reduced the base Weapon and Spell Damage to 270-300, down from 345-375.
  • Standard of Might: This morph sees the same changes to values as the base morph. This morph now grants the caster 15% damage done, 15% reduced damage taken, and 300 Weapon and Spell Damage while inside the area, rather than 475 Weapon and Spell Damage and 12% reduced damage taken.
    
    [Developer Comment]
    We're making some adjustments to the power of this Ultimate between its morph supportive damage version and outright damage version to try and give them a healthier place in the meta.  By reducing the cost to aid in uptimes we're gently reducing the supportive power, while also trying to give back some of the power to the caster to try and deliver on the sentiment many have expressed of wanting the "original" Standard back.  While we're not going to exactly revert this Ultimate in efforts to avoid oversaturating Ardent Flame in the context of subclassing in the long term, we're willing to juice these values up for the time being.

• Superheated Ward
  • Magma Fist: This morph now gains an additional effect when hitting a target at max stacks of Heat Shock, which increases the damage done of your next Magma Fist by 66% within 6 seconds, up to once every 6 seconds. Heat Shock now lasts for 7 seconds, rather than 10, and increases damage taken by 66, up from 33 (originally 65 pre PTS).
    
    [Developer Comment]
    We're trying two adjustments here - moving Heat Shock closer to the original duration and power to hit on the feedback we've seen where many veteran players expressed the desire to see some of the mastery with this morph's upkeep return.  Additionally, we're adding a little bit of power to this morph so it feels like it offers the caster something as well, so there's an alternate playstyle for Stamina focused DKs.

• Magma Armor
  • Corrosive Armor: This morph's penetration now once again only applies to direct damage attacks.  Adjusted the damage limit to 6% of your Max Health, rather than 12% (originally 3% pre PTS). Increased the damage done by 12.5%, and it now targets all enemies instead of only monsters.
    
    [Developer Comment]
    We're walking back the penetration changes made from PTS 1 for this (and Onslaught) based on a lot of the PvP community feedback we've seen. As such, we're also lessening some of the penalties incurred - while still keeping a sharper trade off with this Ultimate compared to before. In general it'll still have a higher damage ceiling compared to live, while sacrificing some duration and survivability - but to far less of an extreme.

The changes reflected above are what you will most likely see when Update 49 launches, barring any unforeseen circumstances.

We want to thank everyone for their valuable input during this PTS cycle. We’ll have an article next week which discusses the extent of the Dragonknight refresh changes we’ve made based on your feedback and a more in-depth look at the PTS process, so be on the lookout for more info soon.

this looks pretty good, but did you guys not see any feedback about molten whip? Or is it just being ignored? This change is so uncalled for. Even if the damage was dropped to like 50-75 per stack. But to nerf it like this because some people are just slotting it for damage in pve is so backwards. Why not just give it high bonus damage to monsters? That solves the problem. I cannot stress enough how much of a massive nerf 300 weapon damage is for this skill, especially in pvp.
@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

Most people slot it passively for the WD. Just like when Bowproc stacks worked the same way. IMO, that's just lazy design that is rightly being corrected.

However, not giving anything back to PvP players after snatching away the damage isn't the proper way. Nor is the current change, which AFAIK further empowers Arc Beamers in PvE, the proper way.

Hopefully, we will get something better next week or perhaps for the U50 cycle.

So in a round about way you are right but I will add just how much of a downgrade or just straight nerf this is too PvP
The numbers point to 100 weapon damage being equal to about 2% damage done
So that around 6% damage for 3 stacks per skill, now when I burst that is flames of oblivion deep breath fossilize and leap then whip that’s 4 skills that alone lose 6% damage now the 3+ dots I have all of those things losing 6% far outweigh the slight buff whip get so yeah
Taking all that away and giving nothing back for PvP is just wrong and a big oversight on their part not sure why they’re not at least giving us a reason as to why shame really the communication on the changes had been good up until this last week

If it aint broke, dont fix it is how I see things. It was just fine as it was, not overpowered, not overperforming. "Rightly fixing" it but offering nothing in return to replace what was "fixed", stop giving compliments to Zos for doing nothing.

I appreciate what yall got right, but you gotta understand how disappointing it is for the DK refresh nerfing the main offensive ability for a DK, whether you think it's "not that bad" or whatever, this is just not acceptable and just makes me even more resentful of PvE. Its supposed to give DK more options but in fact gives less.

Unrelated but also amused they heard out @YandereGirlfriend 's comment I think it was about making avalanche "landslide" instead, its a good change.