Subclassing with DK was inferior prior anyways, you'll be fine. This is an improvement... or will be when whip gets its 300 wd back.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Subclassing with DK was inferior prior anyways...

What? Since when? That definitely isn't true for dps, healers, tanks, or solo builds. Besides, they should be roughly equivalent, not clearly better OR worse.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Subclassing with DK was inferior prior anyways, you'll be fine. This is an improvement... or will be when whip gets its 300 wd back.

It’s so painful because they was so close to having it all right aswell
As I’ve said before lower avalanche times
Add crit to the new crit damage
Put the wd/sd back on molten whip allow it to work with dragonfire and if need be from there additional 2% damage done per stack to monsters

Subclassing with DK was fun before this. The elementalist builds are amazing

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

noblecron wrote: »

Subclassing with DK was fun before this. The elementalist builds are amazing

They might be fun, but they were never and will never be good so long as the power level of the skill line is locked behind "fire damage" or AoE damage. That type of boring buff is restrictive and bad for pure classing and subclassing creativity.

I want your elementalist build to be able to compete.

What? A dragonknight deals flame damage and most skills are aoe removing those buffs essentially guts damage across the entire dk toolkit. Now for subclassing aoe damage buff can help out and synergize will a lot of skills. However I’m open to hear suggestion on what will replace these boring damage buffs? Crit chance and pen? Making a skill a wet noodle removing damage type buffs but allowing the wet noodle to ignore more armor or critically hit doesn’t change it hitting like a wet noodle.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Subclassing with DK was inferior prior anyways, you'll be fine.

Runeblades build, which actually competes very well with beam, does very well with Ardent Flame on live and is used in many HMs and trifectas. Subclassing with DK as a PvE damage dealer was 100% possible and the right choice if you don't want to beam. (Standard is the best ult, FoO and Claw are both strong damage for the number of casts, whip for passive damage.)

DK lines are also definitely still used on many PvE tank builds.

It's only healer that typically never uses any DK subclassing in higher level PvE groups.

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

noblecron wrote: »

Subclassing with DK was fun before this. The elementalist builds are amazing

They might be fun, but they were never and will never be good so long as the power level of the skill line is locked behind "fire damage" or AoE damage. That type of boring buff is restrictive and bad for pure classing and subclassing creativity.

I want your elementalist build to be able to compete.

What? A dragonknight deals flame damage and most skills are aoe removing those buffs essentially guts damage across the entire dk toolkit. Now for subclassing aoe damage buff can help out and synergize will a lot of skills. However I’m open to hear suggestion on what will replace these boring damage buffs? Crit chance and pen? Making a skill a wet noodle removing damage type buffs but allowing the wet noodle to ignore more armor or critically hit doesn’t change it hitting like a wet noodle.

Then give it a buff to damage on burning enemies or something, don't lock so much of the skill lines power behind a flat 5% damage bonus to fire. What if I want to use D-Swing? It's so restrictive.

Same with AoE. Bump up the other buffs/damage and replace it with a small bonus damage based on other players in the area (still a bit restrictive, but at least it lets you use some other skills in a group fight).

What in the dk tool kit stops you from using D-swing? Nothing you can still use the skill. The only thing restricting you from usingD-swing on a dk is it doesn’t have a passive specifically buffing direct dmg or single target which is ok not too much single target or direct damage in their base kit

Ezhh wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Subclassing with DK was inferior prior anyways, you'll be fine.

Runeblades build, which actually competes very well with beam, does very well with Ardent Flame on live and is used in many HMs and trifectas. Subclassing with DK as a PvE damage dealer was 100% possible and the right choice if you don't want to beam. (Standard is the best ult, FoO and Claw are both strong damage for the number of casts, whip for passive damage.)

DK lines are also definitely still used on many PvE tank builds.

It's only healer that typically never uses any DK subclassing in higher level PvE groups.

Again I mean for PvP, if you see me commenting about DK 99.9 percent of the time it’s about PvP, pve is easy, only reason there’s concern about a build there is the community. You can pure dk any content as a tank right now, subclass makes the rest a joke, and dk solo subclass builds same thing. With subclassing anyone can be a healer, dps pretty much same.

For PvP though while doable, most you can expect against a sweat subclassed 1v1 is to stalemate which is fine by me, worthy cost to not be a streak bot.

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

noblecron wrote: »

Subclassing with DK was fun before this. The elementalist builds are amazing

They might be fun, but they were never and will never be good so long as the power level of the skill line is locked behind "fire damage" or AoE damage. That type of boring buff is restrictive and bad for pure classing and subclassing creativity.

I want your elementalist build to be able to compete.

What? A dragonknight deals flame damage and most skills are aoe removing those buffs essentially guts damage across the entire dk toolkit. Now for subclassing aoe damage buff can help out and synergize will a lot of skills. However I’m open to hear suggestion on what will replace these boring damage buffs? Crit chance and pen? Making a skill a wet noodle removing damage type buffs but allowing the wet noodle to ignore more armor or critically hit doesn’t change it hitting like a wet noodle.

Then give it a buff to damage on burning enemies or something, don't lock so much of the skill lines power behind a flat 5% damage bonus to fire. What if I want to use D-Swing? It's so restrictive.

Same with AoE. Bump up the other buffs/damage and replace it with a small bonus damage based on other players in the area (still a bit restrictive, but at least it lets you use some other skills in a group fight).

What in the dk tool kit stops you from using D-swing? Nothing you can still use the skill. The only thing restricting you from usingD-swing on a dk is it doesn’t have a passive specifically buffing direct dmg or single target which is ok not too much single target or direct damage in their base kit

If the power of your class is locked to specific damage types rather than generic, it nerfs any other playstyle. We want balance and creativity. The ability to use D-Swing and hit like a wet noodle is not the argument you think it is. We don't want to be pigeonholed and power-restricted to only playing certain subclasses.

What is the goal here just remove all unique damage types and just every skill deals generic damage with no theme for each class making class choice just visuals? If thts the goal mine as well remove classes all together and instead at character creation we choose a role tank healer or dps.

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

just remove all unique damage types and just every skill deals generic damage with no theme for each class making class choice just visuals?

Just have variety of damage types for different abilities where it makes sense - not EVERYTHING DK needs to be fire damage. And you shouldn't lose out on damage by choosing to deal single target with a Snipe or D-Swing. Classes still have themes and synergy. They did an amazing job at making the new DK skill lines synergistic. Locking a decent 12.35% worth of power behind damage types is restricting. These types of damage type bonuses should be reserved for gear sets and scribing abilities to ensure maximum viable creativity.

BattleAxe wrote: »

If thts the goal mine as well remove classes all together and instead at character creation we choose a role tank healer or dps.

Now that we've both established that's not the goal, we still need multiple characters if we want to have 2 lines or the class mastery of a different class. That's plenty of an incentive to have multiple characters.

Ok as you stated dk needs to be fire damage so it needs a dmg % buff to fire damage. These buffs should not be locked behind gear sets because that is even more restrictive and locks a class to only be effective while wearing x set which might not even help besides buffing x damage type. Dk only has a passive that increases flame damage by 5% and that applies and helps everyone just fyi. Also dks have a passive that gives a bonus of 7% to aoe and dot skills which boosts a lot more than just dk skills for example whirling blades on dual wield.

Also no you haven’t established that isn’t the goal when what you are asking for essentially destroys class uniqueness. Example of what your request causes remove the 5% bonus to flame damage and the 7% damage bonus from dk now all dk skills deal 5% less damage and most skills deal an additional 7% less damage essentially dk now hits like a wet noodle. But now they can use D-swing and have it hit as hard as class skills which is still a wet noodle. Your solution in return is you want that 5% and 7% damage back now you must use x set which might not even have set bonuses that really help. That is far more restrictive when sets have 2-5 piece bonuses and 2-4 are just as important as the 5 piece bonus.

If your building around D-swing why are you starting with a dk to begin with? This request to remove unique dmg buffs seems like a very arbitrary and pointless change unless their is ulterior motives.

BattleAxe wrote: »

Ok as you stated dk needs to be fire damage so it needs a dmg % buff to fire damage.

I'm saying the opposite. You are purposefully being obtuse.

BattleAxe wrote: »

These buffs should not be locked behind gear sets because that is even more restrictive and locks a class to only be effective while wearing x set which might not even help besides buffing x damage type. Dk only has a passive that increases flame damage by 5% and that applies and helps everyone just fyi. Also dks have a passive that gives a bonus of 7% to aoe and dot skills which boosts a lot more than just dk skills for example whirling blades on dual wield.

There are only 21 class lines which offer unique abilities and playstyles. There are hundreds of gear sets. I get you're trying to do a reduction to absurdity argument, but it doesn't work here based on the vast number of gear sets.

BattleAxe wrote: »

Also no you haven’t established that isn’t the goal when what you are asking for essentially destroys class uniqueness. Example of what your request causes remove the 5% bonus to flame damage and the 7% damage bonus from dk now all dk skills deal 5% less damage and most skills deal an additional 7% less damage essentially dk now hits like a wet noodle. But now they can use D-swing and have it hit as hard as class skills which is still a wet noodle. Your solution in return is you want that 5% and 7% damage back now you must use x set which might not even have set bonuses that really help. That is far more restrictive when sets have 2-5 piece bonuses and 2-4 are just as important as the 5 piece bonus.

I think you may have made some hasty generalizations. I've said in many places the removal of the damage type bonuses should coincide with other buffs that offset it. And I think the DK needs more buffs as is even without removing the restricting buffs. Also, if Fire+AoE buffs destroys class identity, then ZOS failed. However, they did not fail. They did and AMAZING job at making the abilities work synergistically. No identity is being destroyed by removing the restrictive buffs. What it does do is make elementalist builds and numerous other (even pure class builds) viable whereas otherwise they'd be significantly weaker.

BattleAxe wrote: »

If your building around D-swing why are you starting with a dk to begin with? This request to remove unique dmg buffs seems like a very arbitrary and pointless change unless their is ulterior motives.

There are hundreds of thousands of players. There should be at least a few thousand VIABLE creative ways to have a unique build and playstyle. The motive is clear: maximize creative viability. If a build has to sacrifice 2% damage, maybe that can be chalked up to other benefits/flexibility, but 12.35% is a clear and noticeable difference that makes some builds not viable.