Jman100582 wrote: »

Ballgroups will always be a problem, so long as group buffs are able to go to 12 people in a pvp setting. You wanna limit ballgroups? Besides limiting hots and shields, you have to limit group sets. Every (good) comp group runs the following core sets: olo, rally, pa. These core weapon damage sets let a group reach 7k spell damage easily with the proper buffs rolling. This also enables alkosh, which gives them lots of pen. Defensive sets, a good comp group fits in gossamer, meritorious, ozezan. These sets (besides rally cry) don’t get weaker or are limited to the amount of targets the effect. In a 12 man group you can fit every single effective group play set in the game, because these sets aren’t limited to who they can affect. Limiting some of these sets to only effect 4 people would drastically reduce the effectiveness of ball groups. Making trial sets only able to work while unaffected by battle spirit or making sets like alkosh or crimson oath only effect monsters would reduce ball group damage by a lot. A strong 6 man comp with competent players can fight a servers worth of uncoordinated players and still win, let alone a 12 man with double the sets

I wouldnt exactly say rallying gets weaker significantly like if we slapped the decrease per player concept on every group set itd fix the stacking issue. For the sake of simplisity lets assume a 10 person group. Also lets just convert the crit resist to wd so we are talking about one stat....So rallying cry converts to a 600wd set bonus on its own.

1 player = 600wd
10 players reduces RC by half => 600/2*10 = 3000wd from one 5 piece
10 players with olorime => 430*10 = 4300wd from a single player's 5 piece

Sure the decrease prevented rallying from being 6kwd in a single set.....but still compared to a solo or smallteam its the player stacking/scaling that vastly makes larger groups more efficient. Before, at least the majority of these group sets had much shorter timers and conditions that required building to get good uptimes. Now we just have these super simple conditions like "spam aoe hots that lag the server and you can output 4300wd from your set for 20s" Meanwhile as a solo player I have sets that require me to bend space and time to proc something that gives me 450wd for 10s with a 5s forced downtime.

Why not make rallying cry only apply to a group member only IF they are critically healed by a single target or literally any other harder condition? Instead right now I just need to get a single crit for it to auto apply to everyone..... Incentivizing me to spam aoe hots which are going to be one of the most server lag intensive skills possible.

Jman100582 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Ballgroups will always be a problem, so long as group buffs are able to go to 12 people in a pvp setting. You wanna limit ballgroups? Besides limiting hots and shields, you have to limit group sets. Every (good) comp group runs the following core sets: olo, rally, pa. These core weapon damage sets let a group reach 7k spell damage easily with the proper buffs rolling. This also enables alkosh, which gives them lots of pen. Defensive sets, a good comp group fits in gossamer, meritorious, ozezan. These sets (besides rally cry) don’t get weaker or are limited to the amount of targets the effect. In a 12 man group you can fit every single effective group play set in the game, because these sets aren’t limited to who they can affect. Limiting some of these sets to only effect 4 people would drastically reduce the effectiveness of ball groups. Making trial sets only able to work while unaffected by battle spirit or making sets like alkosh or crimson oath only effect monsters would reduce ball group damage by a lot. A strong 6 man comp with competent players can fight a servers worth of uncoordinated players and still win, let alone a 12 man with double the sets

I wouldnt exactly say rallying gets weaker significantly like if we slapped the decrease per player concept on every group set itd fix the stacking issue. For the sake of simplisity lets assume a 10 person group. Also lets just convert the crit resist to wd so we are talking about one stat....So rallying cry converts to a 600wd set bonus on its own.

1 player = 600wd
10 players reduces RC by half => 600/2*10 = 3000wd from one 5 piece
10 players with olorime => 430*10 = 4300wd from a single player's 5 piece

Sure the decrease prevented rallying from being 6kwd in a single set.....but still compared to a solo or smallteam its the player stacking/scaling that vastly makes larger groups more efficient. Before, at least the majority of these group sets had much shorter timers and conditions that required building to get good uptimes. Now we just have these super simple conditions like "spam aoe hots that lag the server and you can output 4300wd from your set for 20s" Meanwhile as a solo player I have sets that require me to bend space and time to proc something that gives me 450wd for 10s with a 5s forced downtime.

Why not make rallying cry only apply to a group member only IF they are critically healed by a single target or literally any other harder condition? Instead right now I just need to get a single crit for it to auto apply to everyone..... Incentivizing me to spam aoe hots which are going to be one of the most server lag intensive skills possible.

Rally cry is the only set that diminishes. I’d say pa should only effect 4 players, olo (and any other set that comes from a trial for that matter) should only be able to proc while unaffected by battle spirit or have their effects only apply to monsters. If you limit sets to not apply to more than 4 people, you can’t have a real comp group of more than 4 people. Which is significantly more bearable to fight than a 12 man. Rallycry in general should be nerfed as it has both offense and defense built in making it the defacto meta set in most pvp situations. But if you limit group buff sets to only effect 4 people max, you can’t really run an effective 12 man comp group no matter what you do

Right my point though was that the problem wasnt how much it diminishes linearly, but how the 12 player stacking easily exponentially balloons how many stats a group gets. Can you find a solo player set that gives 3kwd 100% uptime? Probably not lol. 3k is better than 6k......but most wd sets are in the realm of 300-400wd. Group sets are getting so far out of the ballpark its crazy.

limiting group sets down to 4-6 people would be fine, it just means you cut the stacking issue in half. Now a group would have to run two of the same set. Basically it reduces the plateau of stats they sit on in half.

Jman100582 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Ballgroups will always be a problem, so long as group buffs are able to go to 12 people in a pvp setting. You wanna limit ballgroups? Besides limiting hots and shields, you have to limit group sets. Every (good) comp group runs the following core sets: olo, rally, pa. These core weapon damage sets let a group reach 7k spell damage easily with the proper buffs rolling. This also enables alkosh, which gives them lots of pen. Defensive sets, a good comp group fits in gossamer, meritorious, ozezan. These sets (besides rally cry) don’t get weaker or are limited to the amount of targets the effect. In a 12 man group you can fit every single effective group play set in the game, because these sets aren’t limited to who they can affect. Limiting some of these sets to only effect 4 people would drastically reduce the effectiveness of ball groups. Making trial sets only able to work while unaffected by battle spirit or making sets like alkosh or crimson oath only effect monsters would reduce ball group damage by a lot. A strong 6 man comp with competent players can fight a servers worth of uncoordinated players and still win, let alone a 12 man with double the sets

I wouldnt exactly say rallying gets weaker significantly like if we slapped the decrease per player concept on every group set itd fix the stacking issue. For the sake of simplisity lets assume a 10 person group. Also lets just convert the crit resist to wd so we are talking about one stat....So rallying cry converts to a 600wd set bonus on its own.

1 player = 600wd
10 players reduces RC by half => 600/2*10 = 3000wd from one 5 piece
10 players with olorime => 430*10 = 4300wd from a single player's 5 piece

Sure the decrease prevented rallying from being 6kwd in a single set.....but still compared to a solo or smallteam its the player stacking/scaling that vastly makes larger groups more efficient. Before, at least the majority of these group sets had much shorter timers and conditions that required building to get good uptimes. Now we just have these super simple conditions like "spam aoe hots that lag the server and you can output 4300wd from your set for 20s" Meanwhile as a solo player I have sets that require me to bend space and time to proc something that gives me 450wd for 10s with a 5s forced downtime.

Why not make rallying cry only apply to a group member only IF they are critically healed by a single target or literally any other harder condition? Instead right now I just need to get a single crit for it to auto apply to everyone..... Incentivizing me to spam aoe hots which are going to be one of the most server lag intensive skills possible.

Rally cry is the only set that diminishes. I’d say pa should only effect 4 players, olo (and any other set that comes from a trial for that matter) should only be able to proc while unaffected by battle spirit or have their effects only apply to monsters. If you limit sets to not apply to more than 4 people, you can’t have a real comp group of more than 4 people. Which is significantly more bearable to fight than a 12 man. Rallycry in general should be nerfed as it has both offense and defense built in making it the defacto meta set in most pvp situations. But if you limit group buff sets to only effect 4 people max, you can’t really run an effective 12 man comp group no matter what you do

Right my point though was that the problem wasnt how much it diminishes linearly, but how the 12 player stacking easily exponentially balloons how many stats a group gets. Can you find a solo player set that gives 3kwd 100% uptime? Probably not lol. 3k is better than 6k......but most wd sets are in the realm of 300-400wd. Group sets are getting so far out of the ballpark its crazy.

limiting group sets down to 4-6 people would be fine, it just means you cut the stacking issue in half. Now a group would have to run two of the same set. Basically it reduces the plateau of stats they sit on in half.

Oh I don’t think you’re disagreeing at all. Group play sets are insane, my friend and I play in a coordinated 2 man with rally/olo/pa and minor sorcery and we hit close to 8k spell dmg while in dump cuz of balorgh. The ability to easily stack these sets and the simple conditions to proc them is problematic and just isn’t talked about as much as hot stacking and shield stacking for some reason

I would be fine with the group sets if they were harder to trigger or not constant 100% or more uptime. Give group members something to specialize in and play around. Like for these offensive wd or pen group sets, make them have a downtime and a unique trigger. Make the player have to think about and coordinate with their group. Give us a good reason why a 5 piece set bonus should give 3-5kwd instead of the usual 300wd

Even just comparing SPC and olorime. SPC has a hard trigger of requiring overhealing and then it only lasts 5s. So generally it will be able to be activated at the start of engagements, but taper off in longer fights.........On the other hand we have olorime, which perfectly goes on your allies every 20s guaranteed with a 10s cooldown giving you a 200% uptime. So olorime is just an abusably lazy and easy to trigger set. Same issue goes with rallyingcry.

Kartalin wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Ballgroups will always be a problem, so long as group buffs are able to go to 12 people in a pvp setting. You wanna limit ballgroups? Besides limiting hots and shields, you have to limit group sets. Every (good) comp group runs the following core sets: olo, rally, pa. These core weapon damage sets let a group reach 7k spell damage easily with the proper buffs rolling. This also enables alkosh, which gives them lots of pen. Defensive sets, a good comp group fits in gossamer, meritorious, ozezan. These sets (besides rally cry) don’t get weaker or are limited to the amount of targets the effect. In a 12 man group you can fit every single effective group play set in the game, because these sets aren’t limited to who they can affect. Limiting some of these sets to only effect 4 people would drastically reduce the effectiveness of ball groups. Making trial sets only able to work while unaffected by battle spirit or making sets like alkosh or crimson oath only effect monsters would reduce ball group damage by a lot. A strong 6 man comp with competent players can fight a servers worth of uncoordinated players and still win, let alone a 12 man with double the sets

I wouldnt exactly say rallying gets weaker significantly like if we slapped the decrease per player concept on every group set itd fix the stacking issue. For the sake of simplisity lets assume a 10 person group. Also lets just convert the crit resist to wd so we are talking about one stat....So rallying cry converts to a 600wd set bonus on its own.

1 player = 600wd
10 players reduces RC by half => 600/2*10 = 3000wd from one 5 piece
10 players with olorime => 430*10 = 4300wd from a single player's 5 piece

Sure the decrease prevented rallying from being 6kwd in a single set.....but still compared to a solo or smallteam its the player stacking/scaling that vastly makes larger groups more efficient. Before, at least the majority of these group sets had much shorter timers and conditions that required building to get good uptimes. Now we just have these super simple conditions like "spam aoe hots that lag the server and you can output 4300wd from your set for 20s" Meanwhile as a solo player I have sets that require me to bend space and time to proc something that gives me 450wd for 10s with a 5s forced downtime.

Why not make rallying cry only apply to a group member only IF they are critically healed by a single target or literally any other harder condition? Instead right now I just need to get a single crit for it to auto apply to everyone..... Incentivizing me to spam aoe hots which are going to be one of the most server lag intensive skills possible.

Rally cry is the only set that diminishes. I’d say pa should only effect 4 players, olo (and any other set that comes from a trial for that matter) should only be able to proc while unaffected by battle spirit or have their effects only apply to monsters. If you limit sets to not apply to more than 4 people, you can’t have a real comp group of more than 4 people. Which is significantly more bearable to fight than a 12 man. Rallycry in general should be nerfed as it has both offense and defense built in making it the defacto meta set in most pvp situations. But if you limit group buff sets to only effect 4 people max, you can’t really run an effective 12 man comp group no matter what you do

Right my point though was that the problem wasnt how much it diminishes linearly, but how the 12 player stacking easily exponentially balloons how many stats a group gets. Can you find a solo player set that gives 3kwd 100% uptime? Probably not lol. 3k is better than 6k......but most wd sets are in the realm of 300-400wd. Group sets are getting so far out of the ballpark its crazy.

limiting group sets down to 4-6 people would be fine, it just means you cut the stacking issue in half. Now a group would have to run two of the same set. Basically it reduces the plateau of stats they sit on in half.

I don't really have a problem limiting sets so that more than one instance of the set would need to be run. The real issue here is that I'm sure the devs are going to be mindful of the PVE population when they consider changes such as this, though tbh when you see some of the PVE parses out there the power could stand to be reined in a bit regardless.

Powerful assault technically does only hit 6 people, and depending on who you ask some may say a second vigor cast would hit the same 6 or possibly the other 6. When I was with Lemon Party this was tested and found that as long as you change locations, the second vigor cast should spread Powerful Assault to the other six people in the group -- standing stationary causes it to hit the same 6 as the first cast. Kind of strange how that works but maybe the behavior is unintended.

It's interesting to hear @Jman100582 using Olo in a 2 person group, whereas in our typical 6-8 person group we use SPC for major courage instead -- it synergizes well with both Ozezan and the Enlivening Overflow CP star. But that is the difference between being able to have dedicated healers in a group our size versus a more intentioned division of buffs in a smaller group.

Kartalin wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Ballgroups will always be a problem, so long as group buffs are able to go to 12 people in a pvp setting. You wanna limit ballgroups? Besides limiting hots and shields, you have to limit group sets. Every (good) comp group runs the following core sets: olo, rally, pa. These core weapon damage sets let a group reach 7k spell damage easily with the proper buffs rolling. This also enables alkosh, which gives them lots of pen. Defensive sets, a good comp group fits in gossamer, meritorious, ozezan. These sets (besides rally cry) don’t get weaker or are limited to the amount of targets the effect. In a 12 man group you can fit every single effective group play set in the game, because these sets aren’t limited to who they can affect. Limiting some of these sets to only effect 4 people would drastically reduce the effectiveness of ball groups. Making trial sets only able to work while unaffected by battle spirit or making sets like alkosh or crimson oath only effect monsters would reduce ball group damage by a lot. A strong 6 man comp with competent players can fight a servers worth of uncoordinated players and still win, let alone a 12 man with double the sets

I wouldnt exactly say rallying gets weaker significantly like if we slapped the decrease per player concept on every group set itd fix the stacking issue. For the sake of simplisity lets assume a 10 person group. Also lets just convert the crit resist to wd so we are talking about one stat....So rallying cry converts to a 600wd set bonus on its own.

1 player = 600wd
10 players reduces RC by half => 600/2*10 = 3000wd from one 5 piece
10 players with olorime => 430*10 = 4300wd from a single player's 5 piece

Sure the decrease prevented rallying from being 6kwd in a single set.....but still compared to a solo or smallteam its the player stacking/scaling that vastly makes larger groups more efficient. Before, at least the majority of these group sets had much shorter timers and conditions that required building to get good uptimes. Now we just have these super simple conditions like "spam aoe hots that lag the server and you can output 4300wd from your set for 20s" Meanwhile as a solo player I have sets that require me to bend space and time to proc something that gives me 450wd for 10s with a 5s forced downtime.

Why not make rallying cry only apply to a group member only IF they are critically healed by a single target or literally any other harder condition? Instead right now I just need to get a single crit for it to auto apply to everyone..... Incentivizing me to spam aoe hots which are going to be one of the most server lag intensive skills possible.

Rally cry is the only set that diminishes. I’d say pa should only effect 4 players, olo (and any other set that comes from a trial for that matter) should only be able to proc while unaffected by battle spirit or have their effects only apply to monsters. If you limit sets to not apply to more than 4 people, you can’t have a real comp group of more than 4 people. Which is significantly more bearable to fight than a 12 man. Rallycry in general should be nerfed as it has both offense and defense built in making it the defacto meta set in most pvp situations. But if you limit group buff sets to only effect 4 people max, you can’t really run an effective 12 man comp group no matter what you do

Right my point though was that the problem wasnt how much it diminishes linearly, but how the 12 player stacking easily exponentially balloons how many stats a group gets. Can you find a solo player set that gives 3kwd 100% uptime? Probably not lol. 3k is better than 6k......but most wd sets are in the realm of 300-400wd. Group sets are getting so far out of the ballpark its crazy.

limiting group sets down to 4-6 people would be fine, it just means you cut the stacking issue in half. Now a group would have to run two of the same set. Basically it reduces the plateau of stats they sit on in half.

I don't really have a problem limiting sets so that more than one instance of the set would need to be run. The real issue here is that I'm sure the devs are going to be mindful of the PVE population when they consider changes such as this, though tbh when you see some of the PVE parses out there the power could stand to be reined in a bit regardless.

Powerful assault technically does only hit 6 people, and depending on who you ask some may say a second vigor cast would hit the same 6 or possibly the other 6. When I was with Lemon Party this was tested and found that as long as you change locations, the second vigor cast should spread Powerful Assault to the other six people in the group -- standing stationary causes it to hit the same 6 as the first cast. Kind of strange how that works but maybe the behavior is unintended.

It's interesting to hear @Jman100582 using Olo in a 2 person group, whereas in our typical 6-8 person group we use SPC for major courage instead -- it synergizes well with both Ozezan and the Enlivening Overflow CP star. But that is the difference between being able to have dedicated healers in a group our size versus a more intentioned division of buffs in a smaller group.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HsvXNgZ7_nc&pp=ygUKRXJlYnVzIGVzb9gGIQ%3D%3D

This is my friends last vid and you can see the type of gameplay we can do with just 2 people and group play sets. We use to have our own 6 man group on psNA but we’ve split up and we do 2 man stuff now. But it should show just how dumb group play sets are, even in a small group

Kartalin wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Ballgroups will always be a problem, so long as group buffs are able to go to 12 people in a pvp setting. You wanna limit ballgroups? Besides limiting hots and shields, you have to limit group sets. Every (good) comp group runs the following core sets: olo, rally, pa. These core weapon damage sets let a group reach 7k spell damage easily with the proper buffs rolling. This also enables alkosh, which gives them lots of pen. Defensive sets, a good comp group fits in gossamer, meritorious, ozezan. These sets (besides rally cry) don’t get weaker or are limited to the amount of targets the effect. In a 12 man group you can fit every single effective group play set in the game, because these sets aren’t limited to who they can affect. Limiting some of these sets to only effect 4 people would drastically reduce the effectiveness of ball groups. Making trial sets only able to work while unaffected by battle spirit or making sets like alkosh or crimson oath only effect monsters would reduce ball group damage by a lot. A strong 6 man comp with competent players can fight a servers worth of uncoordinated players and still win, let alone a 12 man with double the sets

I wouldnt exactly say rallying gets weaker significantly like if we slapped the decrease per player concept on every group set itd fix the stacking issue. For the sake of simplisity lets assume a 10 person group. Also lets just convert the crit resist to wd so we are talking about one stat....So rallying cry converts to a 600wd set bonus on its own.

1 player = 600wd
10 players reduces RC by half => 600/2*10 = 3000wd from one 5 piece
10 players with olorime => 430*10 = 4300wd from a single player's 5 piece

Sure the decrease prevented rallying from being 6kwd in a single set.....but still compared to a solo or smallteam its the player stacking/scaling that vastly makes larger groups more efficient. Before, at least the majority of these group sets had much shorter timers and conditions that required building to get good uptimes. Now we just have these super simple conditions like "spam aoe hots that lag the server and you can output 4300wd from your set for 20s" Meanwhile as a solo player I have sets that require me to bend space and time to proc something that gives me 450wd for 10s with a 5s forced downtime.

Why not make rallying cry only apply to a group member only IF they are critically healed by a single target or literally any other harder condition? Instead right now I just need to get a single crit for it to auto apply to everyone..... Incentivizing me to spam aoe hots which are going to be one of the most server lag intensive skills possible.

Rally cry is the only set that diminishes. I’d say pa should only effect 4 players, olo (and any other set that comes from a trial for that matter) should only be able to proc while unaffected by battle spirit or have their effects only apply to monsters. If you limit sets to not apply to more than 4 people, you can’t have a real comp group of more than 4 people. Which is significantly more bearable to fight than a 12 man. Rallycry in general should be nerfed as it has both offense and defense built in making it the defacto meta set in most pvp situations. But if you limit group buff sets to only effect 4 people max, you can’t really run an effective 12 man comp group no matter what you do

Right my point though was that the problem wasnt how much it diminishes linearly, but how the 12 player stacking easily exponentially balloons how many stats a group gets. Can you find a solo player set that gives 3kwd 100% uptime? Probably not lol. 3k is better than 6k......but most wd sets are in the realm of 300-400wd. Group sets are getting so far out of the ballpark its crazy.

limiting group sets down to 4-6 people would be fine, it just means you cut the stacking issue in half. Now a group would have to run two of the same set. Basically it reduces the plateau of stats they sit on in half.

I don't really have a problem limiting sets so that more than one instance of the set would need to be run. The real issue here is that I'm sure the devs are going to be mindful of the PVE population when they consider changes such as this, though tbh when you see some of the PVE parses out there the power could stand to be reined in a bit regardless.

Powerful assault technically does only hit 6 people, and depending on who you ask some may say a second vigor cast would hit the same 6 or possibly the other 6. When I was with Lemon Party this was tested and found that as long as you change locations, the second vigor cast should spread Powerful Assault to the other six people in the group -- standing stationary causes it to hit the same 6 as the first cast. Kind of strange how that works but maybe the behavior is unintended.

It's interesting to hear @Jman100582 using Olo in a 2 person group, whereas in our typical 6-8 person group we use SPC for major courage instead -- it synergizes well with both Ozezan and the Enlivening Overflow CP star. But that is the difference between being able to have dedicated healers in a group our size versus a more intentioned division of buffs in a smaller group.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Even just comparing SPC and olorime. SPC has a hard trigger of requiring overhealing and then it only lasts 5s. So generally it will be able to be activated at the start of engagements, but taper off in longer fights.........On the other hand we have olorime, which perfectly goes on your allies every 20s guaranteed with a 10s cooldown giving you a 200% uptime. So olorime is just an abusably lazy and easy to trigger set. Same issue goes with rallyingcry.

As a point of reference, I typically run SPC + Ozezan in our group, and I tend to have around a 90% overheal rate (DUE TO SHIELDS) in our logs. But definitely these buffs may fall off in critical situations.

Yeah well the shields is a whole other issue we see that has a byproduct of trivializing overheal proc conditions. Olorime for a duo would certainly be up more consistently than spc.