Poll: PvP HoT Stacking Options for Update 49

PrinceMeroborn · January 26

Rungar wrote: »

condition stacking is the ideal solution.

So when you get a dot or hot on you you get a "condition stack" of whatever that skill type is. When someone else casts the same or similar skill the dot timer refreshes itself as you can only have one of these effects. However when this happens you gain a condition stack along with the refresh. If multiple people cast the same type skills you keep getting stacks and the original skill is just refreshed with the new attacker. You cannot advance your own conditions. Only other players can advance a condition stack from a skill. After the last stack is applied only the duration is refreshed. This is compatible with existing gameplay as "stacks" are quite common in many skills and armor effects.

additionally there would be some room for cross ability play where a certain proc and skill would share the same generic dot and thus allow player condition stacking if they were set up for it, at the cost of one of the effects damage.

basically there would be a condition stack for each dot and hot type. The first time the skill is on you there is no stack and each time after advances the stack. Each stack will confer specific buffs and debuffs depending on the skill.

so for a dot lets take the case of poison injection
first cast on you gets you the dot.
if the dots still on you the second cast refreshes the dot but also adds a condition stack of poison.
if you have a stack on you the next time your hit with the same skill you gain another stack.
the stacks and dots will have the same timer. Only the highest stack effect counts.

stack 1: minor defile for the dots duration, poison status x1
stack 2: major defile for the dots duration, poison status x2
stack 3: major and minor defile at the same time for the dots duration. poison status x3 . Non purge-able.

and the case for a hot like regenerating

stack 1: minor fortitude for the duration
stack 2: major fortitude for the duration
stack 3: both at the same time. When the effect ends you are purged as well.

The idea here is to reduce the number of active hots/dots of each type to one but not completely discount the other players contributions through advancing the stacks with crippling or beneficial effects. To make it interesting when you get to max stacks of a dot you can no longer purge it. Max stacks of a hot gives you a free purge when the effect ends.

exapnd on this a little bit

hots and dots of the same damage type can be grouped together as they have a similar effect so the stronger effect overrides both damage and duration. This will further cut down the resources required by the server and improve the gameplay as you wont have 10 of the same thing ticking away on you whether offensively or defensively and pushes gameplay more toward direct damage and healing.

redoing the condition system such as burning, etc into the stack system would dramatically reduce server resources and add more gameplay since if everyone is doing the same thing it wont necessarily be as effective as it was, which makes room for alternate builds, damage types, and effects in pvp, not ust one best build everyone uses.

this system can work for sheilds as well using the same procedure, so you get some tangible benifit, but not the full benifit.

sheilds would have the same 3 stack process and use the timer for sheilds but you can only have one active group shield and one active personal sheild. After that you get stacks of protection which gives you minor then major protection, then both for the duration of the sheild which augments the sheild by making it more efficient.

this could also have a pve application for bosses who might use the same rules, requiring a more diverse arrangement of skills from players to maximize damage since everyone doing the same thing will advance the stacks and there is only limited gain from doing this, but alot of gain if multiple kinds of stacks are active on a boss.

so in summary there are numerous calculation savings for the servers, promotes actual gameplay and diverse player builds while limiting some of the more abused mechanics like ball groups. Its a no brainer really and its easy to implement as the game already has the major and minor buff system, condition system and the advancing stacking system. All thats really needed is the proper overwrite system and to group certain similar effects together by damage type or other effect.

This seems like a reasonable idea for PvP stacking!

Danse_Mayhem · January 26

Great suggestions here already, I just want to add something about healing soul.

Literally, every single pvper is running resolving vigor and healing soul.
Vigor has been there forever and servers as an okay heal over time that everyone has access to, but it’s balanced because it can’t be relied on completely.

Healing soul is a different thing entirely. Since you can put major vitality on it, the skill becomes the best burst heal in the game. This brings the following issues;

1. There is zero reason to run a healing subclass. Sure some people use restoring light because of its cleanse and armour buff, but that’s the only one. Other healing subclasses just don’t get used, because there’s no point. You can just go 2 damage and 1 tank class, then get the best heal in the game from scribing and call it a day.

2. Major vitality is what’s making this an issue. Most other scribe effects are minor. Why is this major?

3. Since Monomyth is basically the only viable mythic right now, it means everyone is running around with major and minor vitality when they are defending themselves. It’s extremely easy on a 2x damage / - tank skill line to just ‘decide you aren’t gonna die’ and then camp the back bar and be invincible to a large amount of enemies. This is obviously also an issue with Monomyth, but personally I can just run around spamming 15k burst heals on an assassination / aedric spear / shadow build with zero spec into healing just because of these things. That comfortably out heals pretty much any incoming damage unless an entire group is on me with ultimates.

4. Some of the cross healing is from healing soul. I do acknowledge that ball groups cross healing is an issue. 8x echoing vigor and multiple radiating regen is not only unbeatable but it causes extreme lag to be around (whichever side of it you’re on) however this isn’t always the case. Sometimes you’re just fighting a group of 5-6 invincible warden mains, all spamming charm, netch for cleanse and healing soul. This also means they all have a 100% uptime on major vitality and can just throw out a full health bar to each other any time they want.

Cross healing and heal stacking is for sure an issue, but please do not overlook the problem of healing soul and how overtuned this is.

I already know there will be some resistance on this, because we ALL use it, but I think if everyone is honest, we can all admit it’s overtuned. At the very very least it needs major vitality changed to minor vitality. Even then it would still be good. IMO vitality should be removed from those scripts so that healing subclasses are actually viable / attractive again.

Other issues to consider with this patch / test;

- Plaguebreak was nerfed to the point of jo cleansing consequence. Now groups can spam cleanse and since every second player runs netch, this is also a big reason people are near invincible.
- Defile was nerfed into the ground some time ago. This could be buffed again.
- Dedicated shielded are a thing now, spamming chakrams on a max stat build to cover people with massive shields instead of healing. Will this be changed too?

There is absolutely no point in going through this giant test and patch of heal stacking, when we have healing soul that can just be spammed this way for giant burst heals by anyone, and has the whole population of cyrodil running around with major vitality, in addition to the other few things mentioned there ^ It’s all an issue together

Please consider this also @ZOS_GinaBruno

ArctosCethlenn · January 26

Good points re healing soul since the easy access to both major and minor vitality is a bit much, though not really a hot-stacking problem.

I really think any nerf targeting sticky hots should focus on the aoe ones rather than including purely single target stuff like rune focus, but that's probably a "in a future patch" thing. for now, at least with a threshold of 8 one person can't easily troll anything from solo to smallscale to largescale play.

tye77732145 · January 26

TheLoreMaster420 wrote: »

As someone who’s played this game for a long time, it’s really sad seeing the devs so out of touch with the balance issues. In 12-man “ball groups,” most healing is just overhealing because shields absorb damage before health bars are affected. Shields, not HoTs, are what make these groups unkillable. They prevent damage proactively, scale with coordinated groups, and erase burst windows, turning fights into a battle of mitigation rather than strategy. The proposed HoT nerf doesn’t fix this—it mostly punishes active healing where it isn’t the problem.

TL;DR: To reduce ball group survivability, nerf shields, not HoTs

Agreed, I’d recommend reducing healing effectiveness after a certain number of stacks, but more importantly, significantly nerfing the amount of shields that can be applied and stacked. The players raising these concerns aren’t wrong.

To be honest, ball groups as they currently exist are actively harming Cyrodiil, especially Grey Host. They are driving players away and damaging the health of the PvP environment at its core.

If the goal is a competitive, skill-driven PvP experience, these mechanics need real limits. Addressing shield stacking and excessive sustain would go a very long way toward restoring competitive balance and improving the overall PvP experience.

tye77732145 · January 26

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Great suggestions here already, I just want to add something about healing soul.

Literally, every single pvper is running resolving vigor and healing soul.
Vigor has been there forever and servers as an okay heal over time that everyone has access to, but it’s balanced because it can’t be relied on completely.

Healing soul is a different thing entirely. Since you can put major vitality on it, the skill becomes the best burst heal in the game. This brings the following issues;

1. There is zero reason to run a healing subclass. Sure some people use restoring light because of its cleanse and armour buff, but that’s the only one. Other healing subclasses just don’t get used, because there’s no point. You can just go 2 damage and 1 tank class, then get the best heal in the game from scribing and call it a day.

2. Major vitality is what’s making this an issue. Most other scribe effects are minor. Why is this major?

3. Since Monomyth is basically the only viable mythic right now, it means everyone is running around with major and minor vitality when they are defending themselves. It’s extremely easy on a 2x damage / - tank skill line to just ‘decide you aren’t gonna die’ and then camp the back bar and be invincible to a large amount of enemies. This is obviously also an issue with Monomyth, but personally I can just run around spamming 15k burst heals on an assassination / aedric spear / shadow build with zero spec into healing just because of these things. That comfortably out heals pretty much any incoming damage unless an entire group is on me with ultimates.

4. Some of the cross healing is from healing soul. I do acknowledge that ball groups cross healing is an issue. 8x echoing vigor and multiple radiating regen is not only unbeatable but it causes extreme lag to be around (whichever side of it you’re on) however this isn’t always the case. Sometimes you’re just fighting a group of 5-6 invincible warden mains, all spamming charm, netch for cleanse and healing soul. This also means they all have a 100% uptime on major vitality and can just throw out a full health bar to each other any time they want.

Cross healing and heal stacking is for sure an issue, but please do not overlook the problem of healing soul and how overtuned this is.

I already know there will be some resistance on this, because we ALL use it, but I think if everyone is honest, we can all admit it’s overtuned. At the very very least it needs major vitality changed to minor vitality. Even then it would still be good. IMO vitality should be removed from those scripts so that healing subclasses are actually viable / attractive again.

Other issues to consider with this patch / test;

- Plaguebreak was nerfed to the point of jo cleansing consequence. Now groups can spam cleanse and since every second player runs netch, this is also a big reason people are near invincible.
- Defile was nerfed into the ground some time ago. This could be buffed again.
- Dedicated shielded are a thing now, spamming chakrams on a max stat build to cover people with massive shields instead of healing. Will this be changed too?

There is absolutely no point in going through this giant test and patch of heal stacking, when we have healing soul that can just be spammed this way for giant burst heals by anyone, and has the whole population of cyrodil running around with major vitality, in addition to the other few things mentioned there ^ It’s all an issue together

Please consider this also @ZOS_GinaBruno

I can’t even be upset, he’s not wrong at all. Healing Soul providing Major Vitality is genuinely true, and while many of us use it, we also have to be honest: it’s kind of overtuned.

As for the Warden builds, most of them are running Shalks alongside Assassination, paired with Cleansing Ritual and Restoring Knight, which makes them extremely difficult to kill. Some open with Incapacitating Strike, followed by Merciless Resolve and Shalks hitting at the same time when timed correctly. Some even run balorghs and a bomber, which is absolutely ascenine.

When this is done with three to five other players and layered with heavy shielding, any incoming damage or even sustained DoT pressure is instantly mitigated. The truth is, and while I don’t blame individuals for it, people have become obsessed with the META to the point that it has turned into a serious plague.

I understand that no one wants to lose, and I don’t fault them for that. At the same time, this obsession is what pushes games into the state we see today, not necessarily the class abilities themselves. It may simply be human nature to exploit systems when given the opportunity because one wants to dominate the other.

The result is that you’re overwhelmed and deleted almost every time, with very little room for counterplay.

Lord_Hev · January 27

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

4. Some of the cross healing is from healing soul. I do acknowledge that ball groups cross healing is an issue. 8x echoing vigor and multiple radiating regen is not only unbeatable but it causes extreme lag to be around (whichever side of it you’re on) however this isn’t always the case. Sometimes you’re just fighting a group of 5-6 invincible warden mains, all spamming charm, netch for cleanse and healing soul. This also means they all have a 100% uptime on major vitality and can just throw out a full health bar to each other any time they want.

Been saying this for a while, if all scribing heals were removed, the 3x offensive skilline meta subclassing would also instantaneously be balanced. Aka... it wouldn't be possible, unless you are completely reliant on a group healer.

Yudo · January 27

Still believe this is a distraction. Some ppl are very thirsty for a change, and probably will accept anything at this point, but I just cannot agree with this.

I am hoping for the real solution where you simply limit cross healing, or make reductions apply on HOTs.
I do not need this in between distraction that is just going to spark more request and time investment with no stable baseline.

olsborg · January 27

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Personally I think 33% at 8 HoTs is not enough, although it is a good start and can be reviewed in future. I would prefer eiither
33% at 5

50% at 8

This is a good one, for now atleast.

Kickimanjaro · January 27

I voted that this should not be implemented as is. Other posters have changed my mind. I don't think this is the right solution long term, but something needs to change and most people (who aren't me) seem to want this, so let's see how it goes.

It will be a good datapoint for follow-up balance changes.

Howda · 2:05AM

I suggest healing overtime to become major and minor healing buffs. They will not stack which will make healing very important but not so important like now when 12 people can rule Cyro when they are online and stack heals.

Or of this is not a good idea then healing should only stack twice. 2 vigors 2 regeneration. The 3rd one onwards could refresh its duration.

Or 2nd stack can become minor healing with diminishing return and 3rd refreshes.

Some heals should be reworked for sure taking trials and 4 man content in consideration while in the same time battle spirit is used to tweak pvp.

Nepenthe · 2:17PM

Perhaps we should give this the Pale Order treatment?

"While Battle Spirit is active, outgoing healing, health recovery, and shield strength reduced by x% per group member?"
(on top of the existing 50%)

Maybe an increasing percentage with larger group size (to penalize smaller groups less), or starting with group sizes greater than 4?

Ex.
Group Size________Heal Penalty
1 ________________ 0%
2 ________________ 1%
3 ________________ 2%
4 ________________ 3%
5 ________________ 9%
6 ________________ 15%
7 ________________ 21%
8 ________________ 27%
9 ________________ 36%
10 ________________ 45%
11 ________________ 54%
12 ________________ 63%

or

Group Size________Heal Penalty
1 ________________ 0%
2 ________________ 0%
3 ________________ 0%
4 ________________ 0%
5 ________________ 9%
6 ________________ 18%
7 ________________ 27%
8 ________________ 36%
9 ________________ 45%
10 ________________ 54%
11 ________________ 63%
12 ________________ 72%

YandereGirlfriend · 6:56PM

Nepenthe wrote: »

Perhaps we should give this the Pale Order treatment?

"While Battle Spirit is active, outgoing healing, health recovery, and shield strength reduced by x% per group member?"
(on top of the existing 50%)

Maybe an increasing percentage with larger group size (to penalize smaller groups less), or starting with group sizes greater than 4?

Ex.
Group Size________Heal Penalty
1 ________________ 0%
2 ________________ 1%
3 ________________ 2%
4 ________________ 3%
5 ________________ 9%
6 ________________ 15%
7 ________________ 21%
8 ________________ 27%
9 ________________ 36%
10 ________________ 45%
11 ________________ 54%
12 ________________ 63%

or

Group Size________Heal Penalty
1 ________________ 0%
2 ________________ 0%
3 ________________ 0%
4 ________________ 0%
5 ________________ 9%
6 ________________ 18%
7 ________________ 27%
8 ________________ 36%
9 ________________ 45%
10 ________________ 54%
11 ________________ 63%
12 ________________ 72%

The server is already dying while running the game on Live and this sort of thing only heaps even more busywork onto its plate. Those numbers are also completely excessive and punitive. You would be making it basically mechanically illegal to run a full group, which is counter to the very design of Cyrodiil.

There is a sort of social engineering angle to some of these suggestions that I quite dislike, which is the implication that we should all be playing the game as some "loose confederation of 1vX'ers" rather than as normal groups. Obviously, it is 1vX'er types who push this angle the strongest but that playstyle is not inherently "correct" or somehow more noble versus the others.

Planning and coordination is not nefarious and everyone has access to it. The goal is to curb the clear excesses of coordinated groups, such as shields and sticky HOTs, not to actively penalize people for having friends, being smart, and playing together.

Limit sticky HOTs to one instance per morph per player. Anything else is overthinking it.

monkiie · 6:59PM

33% is not enough, 8 HoTs is too many, and it still needs shielding added.

ZOS_BrianWheeler · 8:59PM

Hey gang!

Thanks for all the responses to our post/poll and voting on the 2 options for Update 49 regarding Battlespirit changes in regards to HoT stacking. Based on your votes and internal discussions, we will be moving forward with the 33% healing taken reduction being triggered at 8 HoTs for Update 49.

We saw your feedback about 50% being too punitive, so we dialed that back to 33% to still have a real effect you can feel in combat. We also saw the concerns that 3 HoTs to trigger this was just way too low and would basically be up at all times, so we upped that to make it less frequent to turn on/off. Post U49 launch we will be monitoring feedback and checking in to gather your thoughts once it's been live and you've been able to see the effects in small and large scale battles.

We also wanted to take this time to state this is not the end all, be all solution for stacking concerns in Cyrodiil. We plan to look into Battlespirit considering damage shields in combination with healing/HoTs, as well as in group vs. out of group origination of beneficial effects. There currently are no hard dates for those additions, but wanted to let you know we are seeing your feedback, and looking to continue adding to Battlespirit in the future.

gariondavey · 9:03PM

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

Thanks for all the responses to our post/poll and voting on the 2 options for Update 49 regarding Battlespirit changes in regards to HoT stacking. Based on your votes and internal discussions, we will be moving forward with the 33% healing taken reduction being triggered at 8 HoTs for Update 49.

We saw your feedback about 50% being too punitive, so we dialed that back to 33% to still have a real effect you can feel in combat. We also saw the concerns that 3 HoTs to trigger this was just way too low and would basically be up at all times, so we upped that to make it less frequent to turn on/off. Post U49 launch we will be monitoring feedback and checking in to gather your thoughts once it's been live and you've been able to see the effects in small and large scale battles.

We also wanted to take this time to state this is not the end all, be all solution for stacking concerns in Cyrodiil. We plan to look into Battlespirit considering damage shields in combination with healing/HoTs, as well as in group vs. out of group origination of beneficial effects. There currently are no hard dates for those additions, but wanted to let you know we are seeing your feedback, and looking to continue adding to Battlespirit in the future.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno
Can you please look at shielding? Most people agree it is a bigger issue than hot stacking

YandereGirlfriend · 9:12PM

I would not mind a toggle to turn off or on the ability to receive outside-of-group heals.

That would essentially solve the trolling/griefing angle on the one hand as well as the "I don't want my strong effects replaced with weak effects" critique.

Likely most players would leave it on (and that should definitely be the default) but if you were a highly coordinated group of any size then it would allow you to keep these matters fully under your own control without affecting anyone else's gameplay.

Teeba_Shei · 9:12PM

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

Thanks for all the responses to our post/poll and voting on the 2 options for Update 49 regarding Battlespirit changes in regards to HoT stacking. Based on your votes and internal discussions, we will be moving forward with the 33% healing taken reduction being triggered at 8 HoTs for Update 49.

We saw your feedback about 50% being too punitive, so we dialed that back to 33% to still have a real effect you can feel in combat. We also saw the concerns that 3 HoTs to trigger this was just way too low and would basically be up at all times, so we upped that to make it less frequent to turn on/off. Post U49 launch we will be monitoring feedback and checking in to gather your thoughts once it's been live and you've been able to see the effects in small and large scale battles.

We also wanted to take this time to state this is not the end all, be all solution for stacking concerns in Cyrodiil. We plan to look into Battlespirit considering damage shields in combination with healing/HoTs, as well as in group vs. out of group origination of beneficial effects. There currently are no hard dates for those additions, but wanted to let you know we are seeing your feedback, and looking to continue adding to Battlespirit in the future.

What are you doing when implementing this to avoid people who are running 6-7 hots from being grieved by people outside their group?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

acastanza_ESO · 9:21PM

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

Thanks for all the responses to our post/poll and voting on the 2 options for Update 49 regarding Battlespirit changes in regards to HoT stacking. Based on your votes and internal discussions, we will be moving forward with the 33% healing taken reduction being triggered at 8 HoTs for Update 49.

We saw your feedback about 50% being too punitive, so we dialed that back to 33% to still have a real effect you can feel in combat. We also saw the concerns that 3 HoTs to trigger this was just way too low and would basically be up at all times, so we upped that to make it less frequent to turn on/off. Post U49 launch we will be monitoring feedback and checking in to gather your thoughts once it's been live and you've been able to see the effects in small and large scale battles.

We also wanted to take this time to state this is not the end all, be all solution for stacking concerns in Cyrodiil. We plan to look into Battlespirit considering damage shields in combination with healing/HoTs, as well as in group vs. out of group origination of beneficial effects. There currently are no hard dates for those additions, but wanted to let you know we are seeing your feedback, and looking to continue adding to Battlespirit in the future.

So a forum-exclusive poll that got 300 votes, where the effect on ALL HEALS wasn't even clearly explained with 25% still voting no is enough to make sweeping changes like this? Actually insulting.

This should've been a survey that was sent to everyone who logged into Cyrodiil and the FULL EFFECT of the change needed to be explained in DETAIL. Implementing this based on this extremely lacking poll is incompetence at best.

SneaK · 9:23PM

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

Thanks for all the responses to our post/poll and voting on the 2 options for Update 49 regarding Battlespirit changes in regards to HoT stacking. Based on your votes and internal discussions, we will be moving forward with the 33% healing taken reduction being triggered at 8 HoTs for Update 49.

We saw your feedback about 50% being too punitive, so we dialed that back to 33% to still have a real effect you can feel in combat. We also saw the concerns that 3 HoTs to trigger this was just way too low and would basically be up at all times, so we upped that to make it less frequent to turn on/off. Post U49 launch we will be monitoring feedback and checking in to gather your thoughts once it's been live and you've been able to see the effects in small and large scale battles.

We also wanted to take this time to state this is not the end all, be all solution for stacking concerns in Cyrodiil. We plan to look into Battlespirit considering damage shields in combination with healing/HoTs, as well as in group vs. out of group origination of beneficial effects. There currently are no hard dates for those additions, but wanted to let you know we are seeing your feedback, and looking to continue adding to Battlespirit in the future.

There has been several suggestions that seem like better solutions.

MeridiaFavorsMe · 9:35PM

So instead of waiting a patch and implementing a real solution that would actually do something, you’re doing this half-baked crap instead? Just delay it. If you aren’t doing anything about damage shields, this change is going to do nothing but allow players to grief smaller groups on their own faction.

Your post reads as, “We aren’t planning to do any of the things required for this change to actually function, but we’re implementing it anyway.”

DovahkiinHealsYou · 9:45PM

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

Thanks for all the responses to our post/poll and voting on the 2 options for Update 49 regarding Battlespirit changes in regards to HoT stacking. Based on your votes and internal discussions, we will be moving forward with the 33% healing taken reduction being triggered at 8 HoTs for Update 49.

We saw your feedback about 50% being too punitive, so we dialed that back to 33% to still have a real effect you can feel in combat. We also saw the concerns that 3 HoTs to trigger this was just way too low and would basically be up at all times, so we upped that to make it less frequent to turn on/off. Post U49 launch we will be monitoring feedback and checking in to gather your thoughts once it's been live and you've been able to see the effects in small and large scale battles.

We also wanted to take this time to state this is not the end all, be all solution for stacking concerns in Cyrodiil. We plan to look into Battlespirit considering damage shields in combination with healing/HoTs, as well as in group vs. out of group origination of beneficial effects. There currently are no hard dates for those additions, but wanted to let you know we are seeing your feedback, and looking to continue adding to Battlespirit in the future.

I think this working on all heals, not working on shields, and being able to work on people outside of group is still a bit silly.

Master_Assassin999 · 9:55PM

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hey gang!

Thanks for all the responses to our post/poll and voting on the 2 options for Update 49 regarding Battlespirit changes in regards to HoT stacking. Based on your votes and internal discussions, we will be moving forward with the 33% healing taken reduction being triggered at 8 HoTs for Update 49.

We saw your feedback about 50% being too punitive, so we dialed that back to 33% to still have a real effect you can feel in combat. We also saw the concerns that 3 HoTs to trigger this was just way too low and would basically be up at all times, so we upped that to make it less frequent to turn on/off. Post U49 launch we will be monitoring feedback and checking in to gather your thoughts once it's been live and you've been able to see the effects in small and large scale battles.

We also wanted to take this time to state this is not the end all, be all solution for stacking concerns in Cyrodiil. We plan to look into Battlespirit considering damage shields in combination with healing/HoTs, as well as in group vs. out of group origination of beneficial effects. There currently are no hard dates for those additions, but wanted to let you know we are seeing your feedback, and looking to continue adding to Battlespirit in the future.

Hello @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Thank you for this.

4 years ago, ballgroups were a nightmare for probably the huge majority, barely anyone understood how they functioned, it was just a massacre
Today, a lot of groups give it a try, making group play actually meaningful in a game made to be played in group and multiplayer

Starting U49, ballgroups will become unpredictable again, outside of the understanding of the zerg, while doing nothing about immortal-block builds (who don't fit nor in the theme of the game, nor in its genre). You aren't nerfing the ballgroups, you are changing how they will look like, how they will play, disorientating for at the very least an entire year everyone here who complained about people playing in a group

The day you manage to kill group play in an MMO will be the day ESO closes its doors
And that is obviously outside of the fact of how ridiculous this purpose is. Punish those who play the game, this is the right way.

Nepenthe · 10:13PM

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The server is already dying while running the game on Live and this sort of thing only heaps even more busywork onto its plate. Those numbers are also completely excessive and punitive. You would be making it basically mechanically illegal to run a full group, which is counter to the very design of Cyrodiil.

There is a sort of social engineering angle to some of these suggestions that I quite dislike, which is the implication that we should all be playing the game as some "loose confederation of 1vX'ers" rather than as normal groups. Obviously, it is 1vX'er types who push this angle the strongest but that playstyle is not inherently "correct" or somehow more noble versus the others.

Planning and coordination is not nefarious and everyone has access to it. The goal is to curb the clear excesses of coordinated groups, such as shields and sticky HOTs, not to actively penalize people for having friends, being smart, and playing together.

Limit sticky HOTs to one instance per morph per player. Anything else is overthinking it.

Where did I say that my proposition included any final percentages? I literally labeled them an example to demonstrate the concepts I was thinking of, that's all.

Also, computationally, having a global reference table for the healing modifier would be less intensive than checking for morphs and refreshing that instance of a morph with the instance applied by the latest player to cast that ability. It would only have to update the Battle Spirit effect once, every time the group size changes.

No additional checks after group size is taken into account - just a global modifier on heals, health recovery, and shields.

YandereGirlfriend · 10:33PM

Nepenthe wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The server is already dying while running the game on Live and this sort of thing only heaps even more busywork onto its plate. Those numbers are also completely excessive and punitive. You would be making it basically mechanically illegal to run a full group, which is counter to the very design of Cyrodiil.

There is a sort of social engineering angle to some of these suggestions that I quite dislike, which is the implication that we should all be playing the game as some "loose confederation of 1vX'ers" rather than as normal groups. Obviously, it is 1vX'er types who push this angle the strongest but that playstyle is not inherently "correct" or somehow more noble versus the others.

Planning and coordination is not nefarious and everyone has access to it. The goal is to curb the clear excesses of coordinated groups, such as shields and sticky HOTs, not to actively penalize people for having friends, being smart, and playing together.

Limit sticky HOTs to one instance per morph per player. Anything else is overthinking it.

Where did I say that my proposition included any final percentages? I literally labeled them an example to demonstrate the concepts I was thinking of, that's all.

Also, computationally, having a global reference table for the healing modifier would be less intensive than checking for morphs and refreshing that instance of a morph with the instance applied by the latest player to cast that ability. It would only have to update the Battle Spirit effect once, every time the group size changes.

No additional checks after group size is taken into account - just a global modifier on heals, health recovery, and shields.

It is a bad idea on the merits.

You should never be in the business of punishing people for grouping-up in a multiplayer game. That's bizarre.

It is also a pointless endeavor as folk would simply move on to the next optimum group size.

Instead, do the actual thing and directly target the mechanic in question. To solve stacking HOTs... prohibit sticky HOTs from stacking. Simplicity itself. It also applies evenly to everyone and does not punish particular playstyles in some sort of odd virtue hierarchy.