Why is Poison DK archetype completely destroyed in the new DK refresh?

vadritox2 · January 22

I really don't understand why do we need to removed the Poison DK build. There were plenty of flame damage sources in DK already, enough for a burning build, why make ALL skills in DK be ONLY flame damage. How is limiting build variety a good direction for class refreshes? Poison DK was literally the only archetype on which Scavenging Demise was a viable option, and now this set will be completely useless, yet another item to the collection to obsolete sets.

xylena · January 22

I felt the same way when they first made the mag/stam cp split, and stam DK was now poison instead of earth / rock / physical like it was at launch.

I wouldn't mourn sets though, they're always gonna push sets in and out of the meta to keep the gear treadmill running and sell DLC.

tomofhyrule · January 22

They did say poison would move to another class.

In all technicality, DK didn’t start with poison. All of its skill lines are named based on fire/rock ideology. It was only later that they added poison to give a “stam option,” which is now obsolete thanks to hybridization since flame can be the stam option as well.

I know this is giving people fears of other damage types being shuffled around, but I’m sure Warden’s frost and Sorc’s lighting are safe as those are directly names of various class lines. But DK doesn’t have a line called “Poisoned Blood” or something.

I could guess poison is moving to Nightblade (unless they move NB to bleed and give poison to Warden along with frost). There is also the chance that each Class could focus on one single damage type, which means we’re a Class short because there are eight damage types (fire, frost, shock, magic, bleed, poison, disease, physical). I guess we’ll see when Warden’s thing is out.

Radiate77 · January 22

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I could guess poison is moving to Nightblade (unless they move NB to bleed and give poison to Warden along with frost). There is also the chance that each Class could focus on one single damage type, which means we’re a Class short because there are eight damage types (fire, frost, shock, magic, bleed, poison, disease, physical). I guess we’ll see when Warden’s thing is out.

What if we got a new class at the end of our reworks to embody that damage type?

MashmalloMan · January 22

I'm fine with it despite initially being upset because of the following:

I could easily see a scribing modification added that allows the player to convert all of a classes elemental damage from one type to another, but a set list. DK would start with Physical and Poison as options.
Many morphs that have been converted to flame instead of both elements behave nearly identical now, the fact that they were green really served no purpose. In the previous version, you were basically forced into Poison Claw and Flame Breath for example, it's not like you could hyper focus on 1 element or the other, you always ended up with a mix.
Many classes could use poison better like Arcanist, Nightblade, or Warden. From a first glance, DK has a very distinct colour palet of orange which is very obviously flame based, not poison based. Warden has a green/cyan colour theme and is next up for the reworks, so it feels like the most obvious new home for a Poison vs Frost fantasy they're rebuilding. To have it also tacked on to DK would feel out of place, I want classes to feel distinct and it starts with making elements and bonuses for classes more specific/niche, so they're not easily combined using subclassing.

My only gripe is much of the DK kit kinda ignores stamina. Whip, Dragonbreath, Heart of Flame, and Magma Fist should either scale based on highest resource, lowest resource, or a split cost between the two.

tomofhyrule · January 22

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I could guess poison is moving to Nightblade (unless they move NB to bleed and give poison to Warden along with frost). There is also the chance that each Class could focus on one single damage type, which means we’re a Class short because there are eight damage types (fire, frost, shock, magic, bleed, poison, disease, physical). I guess we’ll see when Warden’s thing is out.

What if we got a new class at the end of our reworks to embody that damage type?

I will take literally any excuse to give me a new Class at this point. But since I’ve had so long without one to ruminate, I have unfortunately come up with two more characters I need so now I need two Classes.

This is one of the main reasons I’m interested to see what they do to Warden, whether it becomes a frost/bleed setup or whether it is entirely changed to frost (implying an 8th Class will come for the last damage type… but also implying that 8 is it). DK’s lines do all lean fire, but Warden does easily lean toward two damage types using frost and then either bleed or poison (Animals and Plants easily fall into one of those types so the two non-frost Warden lines could be unified to that damage type).

But yeah, I’m absolutely at the “give me two more classes in whatever way they come out, but hurry it up pls” state.

Radiate77 · January 22

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I could guess poison is moving to Nightblade (unless they move NB to bleed and give poison to Warden along with frost). There is also the chance that each Class could focus on one single damage type, which means we’re a Class short because there are eight damage types (fire, frost, shock, magic, bleed, poison, disease, physical). I guess we’ll see when Warden’s thing is out.

What if we got a new class at the end of our reworks to embody that damage type?

I will take literally any excuse to give me a new Class at this point. But since I’ve had so long without one to ruminate, I have unfortunately come up with two more characters I need so now I need two Classes.

This is one of the main reasons I’m interested to see what they do to Warden, whether it becomes a frost/bleed setup or whether it is entirely changed to frost (implying an 8th Class will come for the last damage type… but also implying that 8 is it). DK’s lines do all lean fire, but Warden does easily lean toward two damage types using frost and then either bleed or poison (Animals and Plants easily fall into one of those types so the two non-frost Warden lines could be unified to that damage type).

But yeah, I’m absolutely at the “give me two more classes in whatever way they come out, but hurry it up pls” state.

Yeah, I’ve been waiting to get my Death Knight built until I know how Winter’s Embrace will look.

My biggest concern with this transitory state ESO is in, is with our upcoming updates I have no idea if we will be able to repeat quests on harder difficulties, so I haven’t touched a quest in months, and I don’t want to play around with Subclassing until I know how our skills will land.

tsaescishoeshiner · January 22

If DK hadn't launched with poison, I don't think there would be requests for it. I think a poison archetype would make a lot more sense in a class like Nightblade, Warden, or Necromancer. Especially if Bows and Dual Wield get a bit more poison.

Arcanasx · January 23

Good riddance. Poison was only ever added to DK because of the champion point system and now that we have hybridization it's no longer needed. Better to have it on a class that can better represent a poisonous theme instead of cannibalizing DK's original identity.

UntilValhalla13 · January 23

I'm guessing it will go to nightblades, because it fits the rogue archetype. Poison, traps, stealth, and daggers. One can hope anyway.

MindOfTheSwarm · January 23

I imagine Warden will get the poison stuff. Plants and stuff.

xylena · January 23

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

If DK hadn't launched with poison

It didn't launch with poison. Stam DK was magma / rock / earth / physical at launch.

The first iteration of Noxious Breath looked like literal vomit. Players were not happy with Stam DK being given poison when it would've made more thematic sense on the rogue assassin class. It was also a pure contrivance for the sake of a cp split that no longer exists.

Personofsecrets · January 23

xylena wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

If DK hadn't launched with poison

It didn't launch with poison. Stam DK was magma / rock / earth / physical at launch.

The first iteration of Noxious Breath looked like literal vomit. Players were not happy with Stam DK being given poison when it would've made more thematic sense on the rogue assassin class. It was also a pure contrivance for the sake of a cp split that no longer exists.

Well, the issue now is that the current DK balance update is a contrivance for the sake of designers walking back their own design choices and having the appearance of doing something about sub-classing complaints which largely stem from non-DK classes.

wilsonwjesse · January 24

There seems to be a misunderstanding of ESO lore. DK's got a "Protect the Brood" skill. Dragons in ESO don't have a brood. They are timeless eternal entities and they breath fire, frost, and shock. They could even breath acid I suppose which is what the original class was.

They should remove all damage type buffs from all skill lines. Remove all fire, AoE/DoT, Shock, Physical, Frost damage buffs should be removed. Once that is done:
Claw should go back to a version with poison or bleed.
Burning Talons should be Piercing Talons and deal bleed damage.
Disintegrating Dragonfire should do poison and the name should be dragonbreath not dragonfire.
Engulfing Dragonfire should be dragonbreath and should do fire OR the type of staff you have. The destro staff passives should also be reworked. I'd be happier with more spell/weapon damage than the type of damage modifiers. Heavy attack bonus is a big enough distinction for them. They should also effect more abilities type of damage.
Take flight should go back to Phys.

xylena · January 24

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

They could even breath acid I suppose which is what the original class was.

Again. Not the original, which was very clearly fire / earth / magma with mostly flame and a couple physical damage. The poison was added a year in, like 2015, for the old cp split.

Thumbless_Bot · January 24

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I could guess poison is moving to Nightblade (unless they move NB to bleed and give poison to Warden along with frost). There is also the chance that each Class could focus on one single damage type, which means we’re a Class short because there are eight damage types (fire, frost, shock, magic, bleed, poison, disease, physical). I guess we’ll see when Warden’s thing is out.

What if we got a new class at the end of our reworks to embody that damage type?

That was really strong... and behind a pay wall. Seems legit.

Chilly-McFreeze · January 24

xylena wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

They could even breath acid I suppose which is what the original class was.

Again. Not the original, which was very clearly fire / earth / magma with mostly flame and a couple physical damage. The poison was added a year in, like 2015, for the old cp split.

Yes, but it does not really matter now. A large chunk of the current player base wasn't around in the first year. So they couldn't care less about what DK was eleven years ago. Yet they very well know what they are losing right now.
And then again. Hurricane didn't existed until mid 2016, yet it's an iconic skill no one would argue to take away from sorcs because "the class didn't launch like this".

They are simply taking away a playstyle and maybe enable something similar later (earliest 6-9 months, if ever).

iyx · January 24

I can judge mostly from a roleplaying perspective, and I think it's a bad idea to remove variant that's been in the game for ten years, and around which many players built their characters. Someone could create their own build around the most unnecessary skill, and the poison morphs on the DK were far from useless.
I wonder if they'll add green styles for the changed skills, to at least visually reflect the old spec, before poisons are added to another class.

wilsonwjesse · January 24

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

They could even breath acid I suppose which is what the original class was.

Again. Not the original, which was very clearly fire / earth / magma with mostly flame and a couple physical damage. The poison was added a year in, like 2015, for the old cp split.

Yes, but it does not really matter now. A large chunk of the current player base wasn't around in the first year. So they couldn't care less about what DK was eleven years ago. Yet they very well know what they are losing right now.
And then again. Hurricane didn't existed until mid 2016, yet it's an iconic skill no one would argue to take away from sorcs because "the class didn't launch like this".

They are simply taking away a playstyle and maybe enable something similar later (earliest 6-9 months, if ever).

Also I was there when the game first came out. I don't care that it was poison in the past either. I don't want each class to only do one thing. Poison makes some sense for a dragon. Disease and Magic are the only ones that don't make sense for the dragonknight.

I just want more variety, but most importantly I want them to remove the damage type buffs from all lines: Fire, Shock, Phys, Frost, AoE. It makes subclasing restrictive and better than pureclassing.

MashmalloMan · 1:50AM

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

They could even breath acid I suppose which is what the original class was.

Again. Not the original, which was very clearly fire / earth / magma with mostly flame and a couple physical damage. The poison was added a year in, like 2015, for the old cp split.

Yes, but it does not really matter now. A large chunk of the current player base wasn't around in the first year. So they couldn't care less about what DK was eleven years ago. Yet they very well know what they are losing right now.
And then again. Hurricane didn't existed until mid 2016, yet it's an iconic skill no one would argue to take away from sorcs because "the class didn't launch like this".

They are simply taking away a playstyle and maybe enable something similar later (earliest 6-9 months, if ever).

It makes subclasing restrictive and better than pureclassing.

This is a conflicting statement is it not?

Idk why anyone would ask to dilute the interesting passives into 1 size fits all. That is exactly what makes subclassing so powerful, in addition to stacking 3 pure DPS lines, and/or the overpowered skills they offer.

Assassination and Herald of the Tome for example, collectively give crit chance, crit damage, pen, w/s damage, sustain, status effect chance, and status effect damage... easy to proc, applies to nearly any type of damage with 0 effort. No need to pick specific skills or sets.

DK's new damage bonuses may be more restrictive, but it has a clear design intent from being based on flame, dot, aoe, burning, w/s damage, crit damage, and sticking in the fight, but it's been spread out so indiviudally each has its own archetype a potential new subclass combination may enjoy.

I like subclassing, but it was not implemented well. It allows you to stack DPS lines for 3 passives, 2-4 skills, and 3 ultimates, for a total of 9, 6-12, and 3. By comparison, a pure class only has 3-5 passives, 4-6 skills, and 1, maybe 2 ultimates.

DK's new design gives us insight into the future of every class, the floor is going up for pure classing, and the ceiling is coming down for subclassing. New layout has 2 passives, 3 skills, and 1 ultimate for a total of 6,9, and 3. When every line is treated this way, subclassing is forced into 6 passives max instead of the previous 9.

Some lines may have more niche bonuses, but there is 3x the options available. Instead of only 7 DPS lines, you'll have 21 competitive options. I think we can afford a few bonuses only applying to elements of the game you need to think about.

wilsonwjesse · 6:18AM

MashmalloMan wrote: »

This is a conflicting statement is it not?

No, it makes CERTAIN subclasses better than pure classing (Draconic Power and Storm Calling for example (to stack AoE and Phys damage).

But in general it makes subclassing more restrictive: Ardent Flame and Storm Calling are bad together because most the power from those skill lines is put into a specific elemental damage type.

The way to make both pure classing and sub classing great is to have each line balanced and more synergistic playstyle within the class. They actually did a mostly great job on this.

Each skill line has to be roughly equally good at DPS, Tanking, Healing, and PvP.

That's why Cinder Storm moved to Ardent flame and became a heal ability on both morphs. That's why Coag became a group heal ability.

Each line offers great Tools that are roughly as good for each type of thing you want to do. Picking the lines is mostly now about playstyle (or at least that's the hope).

Personofsecrets · 9:32AM

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

This is a conflicting statement is it not?

No, it makes CERTAIN subclasses better than pure classing (Draconic Power and Storm Calling for example (to stack AoE and Phys damage).

But in general it makes subclassing more restrictive: Ardent Flame and Storm Calling are bad together because most the power from those skill lines is put into a specific elemental damage type.

The way to make both pure classing and sub classing great is to have each line balanced and more synergistic playstyle within the class. They actually did a mostly great job on this.

Each skill line has to be roughly equally good at DPS, Tanking, Healing, and PvP.

That's why Cinder Storm moved to Ardent flame and became a heal ability on both morphs. That's why Coag became a group heal ability.

Each line offers great Tools that are roughly as good for each type of thing you want to do. Picking the lines is mostly now about playstyle (or at least that's the hope).

This is a tanking setup for trials in 2017. This was for the Halls of Fabrication trifecta. It was done via a Pure DK

Using this build now, compared to back then, would mean the following.

Igneous doens't proc Helping Hands because Helping Hands is gone.
Igneous doesn't proc Minor Brutality
Engulfing Flames doesn't increase fire damage done
Neither ultimate ability return very many resources with the new Battle Roar

Here is a more contemporary setup for trials right before sub-classing came out. This was my Swashbuckler Supreme run.

The effect of Stone Giant is mitigated
Stone Giant doesn't proc Minor Brutality
Igneous Weapons doesn't proc Minor Brutality
Neither ultimate ability return very many resources with the new Battle Roar

It's also relevant that Magma lost ultimate generation while under it's effect since keeping up Magma was a key strategy for Reef Guardian.

Pure DK, despite being the standard for tanking, was not in a great spot to begin with. This idea is clear by the number of it's skills useful for trials that have been used throughout the years. Look at the skill lines and there isn't much DK there.

The changes this patch may have an interesting tool here or there, but they also heavily mess with the above functionality that I point out. There are better things to do at this point than anything that DK will have to offer. So much for it's identity.

Drackolus · 1:16PM

I still don't see the benefit of removing an archetype from a class. "Fire" is not a good class identity, and that's all the dk's current identity is. No rock, no stone, and only allows one very specific type of draconic flavor.
It's one if my many gripes for this rework. I think the only thing I do like is the channeled breath, though I don't like their implementation of that either.

xylena · 2:07PM

Drackolus wrote: »

No rock, no stone, and only allows one very specific type of draconic flavor.

I do wish they could've leaned into the rock/earth/magma theme more. That to me is what made DK unique from other various pyromancer or dragon themes.

BattleAxe · 5:10PM

Personofsecrets wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

This is a conflicting statement is it not?

No, it makes CERTAIN subclasses better than pure classing (Draconic Power and Storm Calling for example (to stack AoE and Phys damage).

But in general it makes subclassing more restrictive: Ardent Flame and Storm Calling are bad together because most the power from those skill lines is put into a specific elemental damage type.

The way to make both pure classing and sub classing great is to have each line balanced and more synergistic playstyle within the class. They actually did a mostly great job on this.

Each skill line has to be roughly equally good at DPS, Tanking, Healing, and PvP.

That's why Cinder Storm moved to Ardent flame and became a heal ability on both morphs. That's why Coag became a group heal ability.

Each line offers great Tools that are roughly as good for each type of thing you want to do. Picking the lines is mostly now about playstyle (or at least that's the hope).

This is a tanking setup for trials in 2017. This was for the Halls of Fabrication trifecta. It was done via a Pure DK

Using this build now, compared to back then, would mean the following.

Igneous doens't proc Helping Hands because Helping Hands is gone.
Igneous doesn't proc Minor Brutality
Engulfing Flames doesn't increase fire damage done
Neither ultimate ability return very many resources with the new Battle Roar

Here is a more contemporary setup for trials right before sub-classing came out. This was my Swashbuckler Supreme run.

The effect of Stone Giant is mitigated
Stone Giant doesn't proc Minor Brutality
Igneous Weapons doesn't proc Minor Brutality
Neither ultimate ability return very many resources with the new Battle Roar

It's also relevant that Magma lost ultimate generation while under it's effect since keeping up Magma was a key strategy for Reef Guardian.

Pure DK, despite being the standard for tanking, was not in a great spot to begin with. This idea is clear by the number of it's skills useful for trials that have been used throughout the years. Look at the skill lines and there isn't much DK there.

The changes this patch may have an interesting tool here or there, but they also heavily mess with the above functionality that I point out. There are better things to do at this point than anything that DK will have to offer. So much for it's identity.

Well dk tanks won’t need to use stone giant or engulfing anymore and with minor brutality in draconic line can proc it from blood of the green dragon chains or talons. Also 2017 was a different time in the game even before scribing became a thing. Also not every tank necessarily will use the exact same build which is ideally what ppl want build diversity instead of cookie cutter this is a tank build this is a healer and this is a dd. Also as I have iterated in several threads this is the first of 7 class reworks and until we see where the cookie crumbles nobody can say dk support roles are DoA which intitially while waiting on other classes to be refreshed might happen but as more classes get reworked we will see metas shift, change, disappear, and reappear.

MXVIIDREAM · 8:15PM

BattleAxe wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

This is a conflicting statement is it not?

No, it makes CERTAIN subclasses better than pure classing (Draconic Power and Storm Calling for example (to stack AoE and Phys damage).

But in general it makes subclassing more restrictive: Ardent Flame and Storm Calling are bad together because most the power from those skill lines is put into a specific elemental damage type.

The way to make both pure classing and sub classing great is to have each line balanced and more synergistic playstyle within the class. They actually did a mostly great job on this.

Each skill line has to be roughly equally good at DPS, Tanking, Healing, and PvP.

That's why Cinder Storm moved to Ardent flame and became a heal ability on both morphs. That's why Coag became a group heal ability.

Each line offers great Tools that are roughly as good for each type of thing you want to do. Picking the lines is mostly now about playstyle (or at least that's the hope).

This is a tanking setup for trials in 2017. This was for the Halls of Fabrication trifecta. It was done via a Pure DK

Using this build now, compared to back then, would mean the following.

Igneous doens't proc Helping Hands because Helping Hands is gone.
Igneous doesn't proc Minor Brutality
Engulfing Flames doesn't increase fire damage done
Neither ultimate ability return very many resources with the new Battle Roar

Here is a more contemporary setup for trials right before sub-classing came out. This was my Swashbuckler Supreme run.

The effect of Stone Giant is mitigated
Stone Giant doesn't proc Minor Brutality
Igneous Weapons doesn't proc Minor Brutality
Neither ultimate ability return very many resources with the new Battle Roar

It's also relevant that Magma lost ultimate generation while under it's effect since keeping up Magma was a key strategy for Reef Guardian.

Pure DK, despite being the standard for tanking, was not in a great spot to begin with. This idea is clear by the number of it's skills useful for trials that have been used throughout the years. Look at the skill lines and there isn't much DK there.

The changes this patch may have an interesting tool here or there, but they also heavily mess with the above functionality that I point out. There are better things to do at this point than anything that DK will have to offer. So much for it's identity.

Well dk tanks won’t need to use stone giant or engulfing anymore and with minor brutality in draconic line can proc it from blood of the green dragon chains or talons. Also 2017 was a different time in the game even before scribing became a thing. Also not every tank necessarily will use the exact same build which is ideally what ppl want build diversity instead of cookie cutter this is a tank build this is a healer and this is a dd. Also as I have iterated in several threads this is the first of 7 class reworks and until we see where the cookie crumbles nobody can say dk support roles are DoA which intitially while waiting on other classes to be refreshed might happen but as more classes get reworked we will see metas shift, change, disappear, and reappear.

The people that are saying this haven’t even looked or tested the changes, with the changes however dk serves as a better dps healer and tank from what I’ve tested than it did before
People just hate to change and adapt their that’s the reality

Invest more into Dragonknights and you get more return simple as that

MashmalloMan · 8:32PM

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

This is a conflicting statement is it not?

But in general it makes subclassing more restrictive: Ardent Flame and Storm Calling are bad together because most the power from those skill lines is put into a specific elemental damage type.

Good. That is exactly what we want. As I said, their reworks look to make 21 available options for subclassing instead of the current 7, do you really need every single one to perfectly weave with each other? No. 21 options is insane, each line has 12 morphs and 4 passives. It's frankly impossible to make everything equally competitive and you'd be a fool to chase that. If your vision of making things unrestrictive means generic bonuses, I don't want it. That's not diversity.

You need some restrictions to make your choices meaningful. That would be like saying, instead of 12 skill slots, give me 30, I can't fit all the skills I want. Or let me use 5 potions at the same time. Let me be all races. Lets get rid of the 9 elements, lets just call it "damage". It's just all too restrictive. How is any of that fun game design. I want real choice. That's what an RPG is.

Plus, in your own example it's just not entirely true. If I want to make a Fire + Shock build, I'm definitely combining Storm Calling and Ardent Flame at minimum, it may not be the most competitive thing in the world, but whos to say it isn't in the future. To say it's impossible or too restrictive shows a lack of imagination. Even using currently available options;

Force pulse and Illambris deal Flame and Shock damage.
Dual Wield for a Flame and Shock glyph.
Scribing for 10+ grimoires which you can use to combine a Flame Focus and Sorcerer Signature to deal both damage types.
You don't even need every ability to deal both at the same time, you can alternate between Flame and Shock dedicated dots.

wilsonwjesse · 9:00PM

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Plus, in your own example it's just not entirely true. If I want to make a Fire + Shock build, I'm definitely combining Storm Calling and Ardent Flame at minimum, it may not be the most competitive thing in the world, but whos to say it isn't in the future. To say it's impossible or too restrictive shows a lack of imagination. Even using currently available options;

This will never be balanced with damage type bonuses. There are videos of people passively making fun of the idea that an elementalal skill line build with spread out damage modifiers can somehow be viable. It's not a lack of imagination. It is you thinking 5% isn't that big of a deal.

5% damage is like 1/3 of a good gear set and makes up a significant portion of the skill line's power level. You can't just waste it by casting fewer non-Flame abilities. Your build will be X% worse if you go these lines than if you only deal damage types that have stacking bonuses. It might be fun, but I want fun and viable. I want you to be able to go Ardent Flame and Storm Calling and do the same damage as someone going Draconic and Storm Calling, but that will never be the case with these restrictive damage type bonuses.

It makes some subclasses better than others. 5% is a lot. The class is already very synergistic. They don't need these restrictive bonuses, but they do need each line to be buffed more (especially when they remove the damage type modifiers) for DD, Tanking, Healing, and PvP. It still doesn't have enough juicy benefit to offer each type of thing.