React wrote: »

I don't think this is punishing enough to make a difference. These groups are healing many times in excess of the damage theyr'e taking, so a 33% reduction probably won't phase them. If it is too punishing, they'll stack 7 HOTS and shift their efforts to shields and burst burst heals, maybe with a few ground HOTs mixed in. At least when it was being proposed at 5, that was a number thst would actually be difficult to avoid having.

As for the stacking mechanics, please explore this further. Times have changed, and in this post youre referencing something from 5+ years ago. This isn't the same game or community thet it was 5+ years ago. Healing is exponentially stronger than it was back then, and every other aspect of survivability has been power crept as well.

Making it so same morph HOTS don't stack would instantly solve the hot issue.

Hope to see shields addressed in a future patch!

IncultaWolf wrote: »

React wrote: »

I don't think this is punishing enough to make a difference. These groups are healing many times in excess of the damage theyr'e taking, so a 33% reduction probably won't phase them. If it is too punishing, they'll stack 7 HOTS and shift their efforts to shields and burst burst heals, maybe with a few ground HOTs mixed in. At least when it was being proposed at 5, that was a number thst would actually be difficult to avoid having.

As for the stacking mechanics, please explore this further. Times have changed, and in this post youre referencing something from 5+ years ago. This isn't the same game or community thet it was 5+ years ago. Healing is exponentially stronger than it was back then, and every other aspect of survivability has been power crept as well.

Making it so same morph HOTS don't stack would instantly solve the hot issue.

Hope to see shields addressed in a future patch!

Shielding is 100% as much if not more of an issue as healing. Would also like to see it adjusted in a similar way.

evLRise wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

So for anyone wondering: yes, this person is a member of the same ball group I pulled the logs from. And now they’re trying to run interference to keep shield stacking off the chopping block while pushing nerfs onto HoTs instead because the hot nerf won't hurt them.

So, where exactly do you pull your imaginary information from, exactly?

Here’s the problem with their entire argument:

1) “Shields are divided so it’s not 65k effective” is a dodge

Nobody is claiming one single cast gives 65k to one person.

You are literally complaining about it trying to make it look like that's the case when in fact its your mental gymnastics.

The issue is total shield output per second across the group, and the fact that:

sooo... 4k/sec from casting 2 skills from the log you posted? Like I said. Post the whole log. Show DPS damage taken, build etc. etc. If you're delusional enough to think that something like that is gonna make a huge difference in survivability, you have 0 PvP clue.

- different shields stack on top of each other

There are literally 2 skills + ults.

- prevent damage from ever touching HP

I have 4k+ DPS on a dueling setup, strictly single target. Literally one random player is enough DPS to burn the shields consistently from the log you posted, with is 4k HPS.

- don't have any real counterplay

Pressure is the counterplay.

- are front-loaded (you get value instantly)
- can be spammed pre-emptively before any pressure even lands

The whole mechanic of a shield is pre-emptive defense anti-burst. At least you figured that out.

Whether a cast hits 3 people or 6 people doesn’t change the point:
the group is constantly buffered by multiple shield sources at once.

Tell me you're awful at understanding a group dynamic without using the exact words. Who exactly are you shielding in such a case if it "doesn't change the point". HALF the group is being buffed by 2 shield sources at once. Which is in most cases the people who are safe.

So “it’s divided across targets” doesn’t make it balanced — it just means it’s providing full raid-wide damage negation instead of “one guy is tanky.”

I literally explained how the mechanics work, but since it doesn't have pretty colorful pictures, guess I can't expect you to read and process the information now, can I?

2) “Uptime is on the caster not the group” is also a dodge

Yes, logs show uptime per caster.

But ball groups aren’t relying on one caster.

They run multiple shield sources at the same time:

- multiple casters
- multiple skills
- overlapping durations
- staggered casts
- and 6-target cap “coverage cycling”

So even if one player’s uptime isn’t 100% on every group member, the combined group-wide uptime is still extremely high because coverage overlaps.

You literally posted a log with 1 SHIELDER. So are we using facts or fairy tales for providing a comprehensive argument?

This is literally how ball groups function:
redundancy + overlap + constant refresh.

That doesn’t make it less broken — it makes it more broken.

Just read again what you said. Don't rush it and let me know if when you hear it in your mind it actually makes sense.

3) The screenshot proves the problem (90% uptime = 90% damage denial)
The screenshot shows Warding Contingency and Warding Burst at around 90% uptime.

That means for ~90% of the fight, people attacking you aren’t interacting with your HP bar at all — they’re just hitting shields. Their damage isn’t creating pressure, it isn’t forcing healing, and it isn’t opening kill windows. It’s being erased before it even matters.

And saying “uptime depends on the fight” doesn’t change that — it proves the point. If shields only drop when you’re being nuked by siege + oils + stacked DoTs + multiple coordinated players, then it takes an extreme scenario just to make your group play by normal rules.

90% shield uptime = 90% of the fight where pressure is deleted before it becomes meaningful. That’s exactly why shield stacking needs adjustment, not HoTs.

90% uptime means that the damage taken was so low that it's not worth considering, since it took the enemies 5 seconds to burn through a 10k shield. Posting logs out of context is really just worthless bait.

Shields aren’t supporting the group — they’re invalidating the fight. And let’s be real — you know it’s overpowered. That’s exactly why you’re in here running defense for your ball group instead of addressing the actual issue.

If it would be overpowered groups would run shielders instead of healers. The only reason people run shields in groups is to survive other groups, since most people run merciless resolve on DDs and single target focus in a Group vs Group scenario, and you need tools to somehow mitigate the insane single target pressure you get from 3-4 bow procs lined up against you.

As a matter of fact I genuinely hope shields get nerfed to the point where it's not worth slotting any, so that when you notice that it barely makes a difference and reality hits you, you remember this thread, and maybe actually try to understand what's happening behind the numbers you see rather than BiG NuMbErS gUyS oMg NerF

evLRise wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

So for anyone wondering: yes, this person is a member of the same ball group I pulled the logs from. And now they’re trying to run interference to keep shield stacking off the chopping block while pushing nerfs onto HoTs instead because the hot nerf won't hurt them.

So, where exactly do you pull your imaginary information from, exactly?

Here’s the problem with their entire argument:

1) “Shields are divided so it’s not 65k effective” is a dodge

Nobody is claiming one single cast gives 65k to one person.

You are literally complaining about it trying to make it look like that's the case when in fact its your mental gymnastics.

The issue is total shield output per second across the group, and the fact that:

sooo... 4k/sec from casting 2 skills from the log you posted? Like I said. Post the whole log. Show DPS damage taken, build etc. etc. If you're delusional enough to think that something like that is gonna make a huge difference in survivability, you have 0 PvP clue.

- different shields stack on top of each other

There are literally 2 skills + ults.

- prevent damage from ever touching HP

I have 4k+ DPS on a dueling setup, strictly single target. Literally one random player is enough DPS to burn the shields consistently from the log you posted, with is 4k HPS.

- don't have any real counterplay

Pressure is the counterplay.

- are front-loaded (you get value instantly)
- can be spammed pre-emptively before any pressure even lands

The whole mechanic of a shield is pre-emptive defense anti-burst. At least you figured that out.

Whether a cast hits 3 people or 6 people doesn’t change the point:
the group is constantly buffered by multiple shield sources at once.

Tell me you're awful at understanding a group dynamic without using the exact words. Who exactly are you shielding in such a case if it "doesn't change the point". HALF the group is being buffed by 2 shield sources at once. Which is in most cases the people who are safe.

So “it’s divided across targets” doesn’t make it balanced — it just means it’s providing full raid-wide damage negation instead of “one guy is tanky.”

I literally explained how the mechanics work, but since it doesn't have pretty colorful pictures, guess I can't expect you to read and process the information now, can I?

2) “Uptime is on the caster not the group” is also a dodge

Yes, logs show uptime per caster.

But ball groups aren’t relying on one caster.

They run multiple shield sources at the same time:

- multiple casters
- multiple skills
- overlapping durations
- staggered casts
- and 6-target cap “coverage cycling”

So even if one player’s uptime isn’t 100% on every group member, the combined group-wide uptime is still extremely high because coverage overlaps.

You literally posted a log with 1 SHIELDER. So are we using facts or fairy tales for providing a comprehensive argument?

This is literally how ball groups function:
redundancy + overlap + constant refresh.

That doesn’t make it less broken — it makes it more broken.

Just read again what you said. Don't rush it and let me know if when you hear it in your mind it actually makes sense.

3) The screenshot proves the problem (90% uptime = 90% damage denial)
The screenshot shows Warding Contingency and Warding Burst at around 90% uptime.

That means for ~90% of the fight, people attacking you aren’t interacting with your HP bar at all — they’re just hitting shields. Their damage isn’t creating pressure, it isn’t forcing healing, and it isn’t opening kill windows. It’s being erased before it even matters.

And saying “uptime depends on the fight” doesn’t change that — it proves the point. If shields only drop when you’re being nuked by siege + oils + stacked DoTs + multiple coordinated players, then it takes an extreme scenario just to make your group play by normal rules.

90% shield uptime = 90% of the fight where pressure is deleted before it becomes meaningful. That’s exactly why shield stacking needs adjustment, not HoTs.

90% uptime means that the damage taken was so low that it's not worth considering, since it took the enemies 5 seconds to burn through a 10k shield. Posting logs out of context is really just worthless bait.

Shields aren’t supporting the group — they’re invalidating the fight. And let’s be real — you know it’s overpowered. That’s exactly why you’re in here running defense for your ball group instead of addressing the actual issue.

If it would be overpowered groups would run shielders instead of healers. The only reason people run shields in groups is to survive other groups, since most people run merciless resolve on DDs and single target focus in a Group vs Group scenario, and you need tools to somehow mitigate the insane single target pressure you get from 3-4 bow procs lined up against you.

As a matter of fact I genuinely hope shields get nerfed to the point where it's not worth slotting any, so that when you notice that it barely makes a difference and reality hits you, you remember this thread, and maybe actually try to understand what's happening behind the numbers you see rather than BiG NuMbErS gUyS oMg NerF

evLRise wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

It looks lovely and OP beyond reason doesn't it?

For reference, here's a random burst heal log from the same raid from a DD ( not even a healer ), with no powered trait or ritual mundus:



Would you look at that! The average cast is kinda the same as the Soul Burst EVEN with 80% overheal! The average hit is even bigger! Meaning the skill is way more impactful and doesn't just artifically boosts log numbers. That's crazy!

TLDR: Don't use logs as an argument if you don't understand what you're reading on the logs.

Blessing of Restoration is a terrible comparison to shields because overhealing and shielding do not interact with survivability the same way at all.

If you overheal someone, nothing changes. Their current HP stays the same. Their max HP stays the same. Their time-to-death stays the same.

An overheal is literally wasted output unless damage is already incoming.

Shields work the opposite way.

A shield functionally increases effective max HP the moment it’s applied, regardless of whether damage is currently happening. Even if the shield absorbs zero damage, it still:

• Raises the damage threshold required to kill the target
• Forces enemies to chew through extra HP before real health is touched
• Prevents burst kills that would otherwise land

That means shields are proactive survivability, while healing is reactive.

Comparing a heal log with 80% overheal to shield values is meaningless because overheal does nothing to prevent deaths. A shield always does.

And that’s before you even get into stacking.

In organized ball groups you can easily stack 30–40k+ effective HP worth of shields across multiple sources. That is not “log padding” — that is a massive increase in kill difficulty. You’re no longer trying to burst a 40k HP player; you’re trying to burst a 70k+ effective HP target that is also receiving real healing at the same time.

No healing skill — especially one that overheals — changes the kill math like that.

So yes, the average numbers might look similar in logs, but mechanically they are doing completely different things:

• Overheal inflates logs
• Shields inflate survivability

And survivability is what actually decides fights.

Which is why shields are good vs burst. Zerg fights don't have burst damage unless people just happen to be lucky with damage coordination.

Zergy groups deal dmg through siege, AoE parsing etc. Your main focus is consistent HPS across the whole group to mitigate the DPS. So it doesn't matter if the eHP in zerg fights is 30k, 60k or 90k. A ganker does a big combo on you? Shields > Heals.
A DK slaps 5 DoTs on you? HPS > Shields.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

So for anyone wondering: yes, this person is a member of the same ball group I pulled the logs from. And now they’re trying to run interference to keep shield stacking off the chopping block while pushing nerfs onto HoTs instead because the hot nerf won't hurt them.

So, where exactly do you pull your imaginary information from, exactly?

Here’s the problem with their entire argument:

1) “Shields are divided so it’s not 65k effective” is a dodge

Nobody is claiming one single cast gives 65k to one person.

You are literally complaining about it trying to make it look like that's the case when in fact its your mental gymnastics.

The issue is total shield output per second across the group, and the fact that:

sooo... 4k/sec from casting 2 skills from the log you posted? Like I said. Post the whole log. Show DPS damage taken, build etc. etc. If you're delusional enough to think that something like that is gonna make a huge difference in survivability, you have 0 PvP clue.

- different shields stack on top of each other

There are literally 2 skills + ults.

- prevent damage from ever touching HP

I have 4k+ DPS on a dueling setup, strictly single target. Literally one random player is enough DPS to burn the shields consistently from the log you posted, with is 4k HPS.

- don't have any real counterplay

Pressure is the counterplay.

- are front-loaded (you get value instantly)
- can be spammed pre-emptively before any pressure even lands

The whole mechanic of a shield is pre-emptive defense anti-burst. At least you figured that out.

Whether a cast hits 3 people or 6 people doesn’t change the point:
the group is constantly buffered by multiple shield sources at once.

Tell me you're awful at understanding a group dynamic without using the exact words. Who exactly are you shielding in such a case if it "doesn't change the point". HALF the group is being buffed by 2 shield sources at once. Which is in most cases the people who are safe.

So “it’s divided across targets” doesn’t make it balanced — it just means it’s providing full raid-wide damage negation instead of “one guy is tanky.”

I literally explained how the mechanics work, but since it doesn't have pretty colorful pictures, guess I can't expect you to read and process the information now, can I?

2) “Uptime is on the caster not the group” is also a dodge

Yes, logs show uptime per caster.

But ball groups aren’t relying on one caster.

They run multiple shield sources at the same time:

- multiple casters
- multiple skills
- overlapping durations
- staggered casts
- and 6-target cap “coverage cycling”

So even if one player’s uptime isn’t 100% on every group member, the combined group-wide uptime is still extremely high because coverage overlaps.

You literally posted a log with 1 SHIELDER. So are we using facts or fairy tales for providing a comprehensive argument?

This is literally how ball groups function:
redundancy + overlap + constant refresh.

That doesn’t make it less broken — it makes it more broken.

Just read again what you said. Don't rush it and let me know if when you hear it in your mind it actually makes sense.

3) The screenshot proves the problem (90% uptime = 90% damage denial)
The screenshot shows Warding Contingency and Warding Burst at around 90% uptime.

That means for ~90% of the fight, people attacking you aren’t interacting with your HP bar at all — they’re just hitting shields. Their damage isn’t creating pressure, it isn’t forcing healing, and it isn’t opening kill windows. It’s being erased before it even matters.

And saying “uptime depends on the fight” doesn’t change that — it proves the point. If shields only drop when you’re being nuked by siege + oils + stacked DoTs + multiple coordinated players, then it takes an extreme scenario just to make your group play by normal rules.

90% shield uptime = 90% of the fight where pressure is deleted before it becomes meaningful. That’s exactly why shield stacking needs adjustment, not HoTs.

90% uptime means that the damage taken was so low that it's not worth considering, since it took the enemies 5 seconds to burn through a 10k shield. Posting logs out of context is really just worthless bait.

Shields aren’t supporting the group — they’re invalidating the fight. And let’s be real — you know it’s overpowered. That’s exactly why you’re in here running defense for your ball group instead of addressing the actual issue.

If it would be overpowered groups would run shielders instead of healers. The only reason people run shields in groups is to survive other groups, since most people run merciless resolve on DDs and single target focus in a Group vs Group scenario, and you need tools to somehow mitigate the insane single target pressure you get from 3-4 bow procs lined up against you.

As a matter of fact I genuinely hope shields get nerfed to the point where it's not worth slotting any, so that when you notice that it barely makes a difference and reality hits you, you remember this thread, and maybe actually try to understand what's happening behind the numbers you see rather than BiG NuMbErS gUyS oMg NerF

I know who you are and you know who I am. You can drop the act. If you don't want your ball groups shielding nerfed then you can just say so.

I assume you play on NA since that's the only place where people are so bad at making group setups that they think shields are OP. So no, I have no clue who you are since I play EU.

evLRise wrote: »

Could you make it anymore obvious that you're in a ball group? This post just screams I'm trying to defend my OP shields.

I play duels Xing BGs smallscale ballgroup ganking bombing and meme builds if you're that interested.

Make a pool to nerf shields and I will support you for sure. It will have close to 0 impact for zerg fights anyway.

If this is what it takes to.make people realize the biggest difference is in skill and coordination and not cuz everything is OP, I will 100% support it, with proof.

That way we'll run out of things to nerf eventually and people will have to face the truth.

evLRise wrote: »

So... do you not know how much shield con hits for, or are you avoiding the question 3 times in a row because you know it defeats your argument?

You already have a log posted on this thread. Or do you need my personal help to interpret it?

evLRise wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

So... do you not know how much shield con hits for, or are you avoiding the question 3 times in a row because you know it defeats your argument?

You already have a log posted on this thread. Or do you need my personal help to interpret it?

This is a typical thing people do when they don't actually have any idea what they are talking about. Are you incapable of answering what you think the average shield contingency is in a ballgroup?

My bad. Numbers aren't that easy.

Sure. Let's get specific. What does "average shield contingency" actually means?

Are we talking about average cast across the whole raid? Are we talking average tooltip number? Average total shield per cast? Average shield that people get from cast? And in such a case, average across the whole group or just average for whoever gets the shield? And if average across the whole group, how many people?

All of them fit the "average shield contingency".

I can even consider buffs for you if you want. Any slots for a nightblade soul tether? Bone surge synergy active? Average while buffs are up or just integrate the buff's uptime into the value?

Fancy you for throwing a generic and context lacking question and then crying about a generic answer.

evLRise wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

So... do you not know how much shield con hits for, or are you avoiding the question 3 times in a row because you know it defeats your argument?

You already have a log posted on this thread. Or do you need my personal help to interpret it?

This is a typical thing people do when they don't actually have any idea what they are talking about. Are you incapable of answering what you think the average shield contingency is in a ballgroup?

My bad. Numbers aren't that easy.

Sure. Let's get specific. What does "average shield contingency" actually means?

Are we talking about average cast across the whole raid? Are we talking average tooltip number? Average total shield per cast? Average shield that people get from cast? And in such a case, average across the whole group or just average for whoever gets the shield? And if average across the whole group, how many people?

All of them fit the "average shield contingency".

I can even consider buffs for you if you want. Any slots for a nightblade soul tether? Bone surge synergy active? Average while buffs are up or just integrate the buff's uptime into the value?

Fancy you for throwing a generic and context lacking question and then crying about a generic answer.

This question could not be easier. It has been asked 4 times now. When the person who runs the shield contingency presses the shield contingency skill, what is the numerical value that each person hit with shield contingency receives in shielding. I am talking about in one instance, they are just standing still with 5 other people around them. What is the value each person will receive on average?

Wasn't too hard wasn't it. For a build specifically made for this, around 5-6k, +/- some % depending on buffs and debuffs. Small groups are around 5k'ish since they can't afford losing too much group utility to invest into shields. For 10-12 man groups it's a bit higher since they have more sets / skill lines to spare, so you get like an extra 10-15% buff and more consistent uptimes on stuff like vitality.

evLRise wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

If I could show you that the value is actually twice what you're saying it is, would you then agree that it should be nerfed?

Please do. I'm very much interested in how to achieve a 12k average hit.

Fyi here's a picture from a few days ago:



Max refers to the highest value registered across the whole 2h raid, when all buffs were up and no debuffs were on the player.

That means, major/minor vitality; active.
Minor/major defile: inactive

Max: 7200
Without major vitality: (overall 10-15% uptime across raid so inconsistent ): 6400.
Without minor vitality: (overall 50% uptime across raid so we take the average between with or without ): 6400x0.94 = ~6000.

So it averages out at 6200.

Minor defile: Up almost non stop due to plaguebreak.
6200x0.94 = ~5800-5850.

Major defile: Up rather consistently both vs groups and vs zergs due to skills like shifting standard ( groups ) and blastbones ( zerg groups ). but to keep it fair let's put it at 50% value.

5800 *0.88 for 12% major defile penalty is 5100.

Let's take the average between with or without to account for a 50% uptime -> 5100+5800/2 -> 5450 average shield applied.

So the actual average in a fight: 5400.

evLRise wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

If I could show you that the value is actually twice what you're saying it is, would you then agree that it should be nerfed?

Please do. I'm very much interested in how to achieve a 12k average hit.

Fyi here's a picture from a few days ago:



Max refers to the highest value registered across the whole 2h raid, when all buffs were up and no debuffs were on the player.

That means, major/minor vitality; active.
Minor/major defile: inactive

Max: 7200
Without major vitality: (overall 10-15% uptime across raid so inconsistent ): 6400.
Without minor vitality: (overall 50% uptime across raid so we take the average between with or without ): 6400x0.94 = ~6000.

So it averages out at 6200.

Minor defile: Up almost non stop due to plaguebreak.
6200x0.94 = ~5800-5850.

Major defile: Up rather consistently both vs groups and vs zergs due to skills like shifting standard ( groups ) and blastbones ( zerg groups ). but to keep it fair let's put it at 50% value.

5800 *0.88 for 12% major defile penalty is 5100.

Let's take the average between with or without to account for a 50% uptime -> 5100+5800/2 -> 5450 average shield applied.

So the actual average in a fight: 5400.

I'll post evidence, but I want you to explicitly say that you will agree that it should be nerfed first. I get a feeling when I post the evidence you will continue to hold your position.

You should say, "If contingency can do between 10-12k in shields per person then shield should be nerfed."

If proof will be going on PTS and slotting a Goliath ult for 100k max HP, I definitely won't agree.

If it's a setup that actually makes sense in practice and not some meme min max why wouldn't I agree.

I'm not really difficult to argue with if your reasoning is sound just so you know.

You’re already backing off your previous position and trying to obfuscate because you know you’re wrong.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

You’re already backing off your previous position and trying to obfuscate because you know you’re wrong.

Bruh are you ok? I literally told you a post above what I run.

But you know what. Go nord and slap critical riposte xoryn snow treads, resto and DW, 3x swift traits, orzorga and
Pain's Refuge, Celerity, Bastion, Shield Master.

Soldier of apocrypha, ardent flame and green balance.

Waiting to hear from you soon.

Nice. Fake build. I've got the logs and its lucent and arkasis.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

You’re already backing off your previous position and trying to obfuscate because you know you’re wrong.

Bruh are you ok? I literally told you a post above what I run.

But you know what. Go nord and slap critical riposte xoryn snow treads, resto and DW, 3x swift traits, orzorga and
Pain's Refuge, Celerity, Bastion, Shield Master.

Soldier of apocrypha, ardent flame and green balance.

Waiting to hear from you soon.

Nice. Fake build. I've got the logs and its lucent and arkasis.

You are delusional beyond reason dude. Whatever you got, it's neither me nor my group / build.
I'm still waiting for that 12k in PvP proof to show me it's twice that amount by the way.

Moving the goalposts much? I said 10k–12k. Did a modest build without minor toughness or vitality and still hit 10k+ on Contingency. All the usual ball group staples: Lucent, Arkasis, Snow Treaders, Trainee. Can’t wait to see what pathetic excuse you try to spin this time.

Permanent minor protection [✓]
Permanent unique source of 8% damage reduction [✓]
Constant 10.6k shield spam [✓]

https://youtu.be/gmKQq0Z-PHM

Artisian0001 wrote: »

A lot of personal attacks for someone who got exactly what they asked for.