My hope is that after giving us subclassing (which I like and have embraced) to help mitigate the restrictions of classes, the devs don't overdo and punish us for using it. I suppose I would be all right with a very simple potential solution that does not overdo it. . . like: A simple +5% passive boost to weapon and spell damage if you keep two of your primary skills, and boosts to 10% if you keep all three. Very simple, would work for all classes and can be easily tweaked if necessary by bumping the percent up or down a bit if/as necessary.

I don't think they need anything crazy for a long term solution. Overall, DK has been successfully designed, just some overall number tweaking and it's in a good spot.

For the short term, I think a very simple buff based on having 2 or 3 lines could easily be applied flat to all characters to keep them a bit more competitive before their reworks come along.

• With 1 line = no bonus.
• With 2 lines = +5% damage done, +5% healing received and shield strength, -5% cost reduction, and +8% monster damage done.
• With 3 lines = +10% damage done, +10% healing received and shield strength, -10% cost reduction, and +16% monster damage done.

This is considered short term because it's a blanket buff that they don't need to spend costly developement resources on, so it's more likely to be implemented as they don't want to waste time on anything that will become redundant with the reworks. They also don't need worry about how this individually effects x, y, z class and balance as a whole. It's entirely temporary.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I don't think they need anything crazy for a long term solution. Overall, DK has been successfully designed, just some overall number tweaking and it's in a good spot.

For the short term, I think a very simple buff based on having 2 or 3 lines could easily be applied flat to all characters to keep them a bit more competitive before their reworks come along.

• With 1 line = no bonus.
• With 2 lines = +5% damage done, +5% healing received and shield strength, -5% cost reduction, and +8% monster damage done.
• With 3 lines = +10% damage done, +10% healing received and shield strength, -10% cost reduction, and +16% monster damage done.

This is considered short term because it's a blanket buff that they don't need to spend costly developement resources on, so it's more likely to be implemented as they don't want to waste time on anything that will become redundant with the reworks. They also don't need worry about how this individually effects x, y, z class and balance as a whole. It's entirely temporary.

A blanket buff sounds nice however not every class is or likely will be on equal levels in terms of certain stats pen, crit chance, and crit dmg. Now likely some classes like dk has seen will get some crit dmg in class passives however tht leaves pen out and dks have been sorely lacking pen outside of having to use light armor. A class capstone specific to each base class can be loaded with stats to fill wut the class is missing overall and also a capstone being tied to base class and allowing subclassing by diluting capstone power allows for more theory crafting in the sense now base class choice becomes an important factor in regards to building out a subclassed character. This will create substantial build diversity as my suggested class capstone again makes base class choice very relevant.

A simple solution as you suggested is a blanket solution and again not every class will benefit the same from a blanket solution.

An alternative solution to a capstone type passive is a rework of subclassing post class refresh where you keep all your skill lines and u can pick one additional class and essentially build a skill line by choosing one class ultimate 5 active skills and 4 passives from that class allowing freedom to the player to fill in gaps within their own build as they see fit.

Last alternate solution is for the dev team to finally pull the trigger on spell crafting fully where you can essentially build an ultimate 5 active skills and 4 passives. They can even instead of creating a whole new system build onto scribing with this idea. Obviously animations wise adding onto scribing with this makes more sense.

I think the issue with solutions that buff passives based on the number of skill lines from a given class, or that create dependencies between different skill lines, is that this can end up making subclassing too weak and not really worth it.

My idea would be to spread out the buffs instead of stacking them all in a single passive. For example, instead of one passive in a skill line giving +300 weapon/spell damage, you could split it into three passives across different skill lines, each giving +100. That way, even if three different classes offer this weapon/spell damage buff, players wouldn’t be able to stack them for a total of +900. It would still cap at +300, just like a pure class setup.

The same logic could apply to crit chance, crit damage, penetration, or any other stat. Since not all classes provide the same buffs, players would still have meaningful choices when picking skill lines based on preferred playstyle, but subclasses wouldn’t end up disproportionately stronger than pure classes.

rnklippel wrote: »

I think the issue with solutions that buff passives based on the number of skill lines from a given class, or that create dependencies between different skill lines, is that this can end up making subclassing too weak and not really worth it.

My idea would be to spread out the buffs instead of stacking them all in a single passive. For example, instead of one passive in a skill line giving +300 weapon/spell damage, you could split it into three passives across different skill lines, each giving +100. That way, even if three different classes offer this weapon/spell damage buff, players wouldn’t be able to stack them for a total of +900. It would still cap at +300, just like a pure class setup.

The same logic could apply to crit chance, crit damage, penetration, or any other stat. Since not all classes provide the same buffs, players would still have meaningful choices when picking skill lines based on preferred playstyle, but subclasses wouldn’t end up disproportionately stronger than pure classes.

The proposal I made is tied specifically to the base class itself and only increase off number of base class lines.


My example I gave:

For every dragonknight skill line gain 1000 penetration, 1% crit chance, 1% crit dmg, 100 weapon/spell dmg, 2% dmg reduction, and 2% reduced block cost. Embracing one’s affinity with the essence of a dragon grants one the power to eat worlds.

Meaning with one dragonknight skill line you’ll get the values above for a second dragonknight line double the above and staying purely dragonknight means the above is 3 times the above values.

Meaning someone who chooses the base class of dragonknight and subclasses out the other 2 skill lines will get the above value only and nothing more. Without knowing more of how the class reworks will fall for other classes hard to propose a capstonepassive idea until seeing how each class changes. This idea simply gives more value dependent on the base class chosen versus just cherry picking skill lines with the juiciest passives for a given role. The other idea behind my proposed capstone is fill in the gaps a pure class may be missing in their kit so the capstone is tailored towards equalizing the pure classes apart from subclassing while allowing subclass to take a small part in the capstone benefits to keep it relevant.

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

A simple solution here and one that could add a lot to every class. Class capstone essentially a passive for base class and it’s power fluctuates based off how many class lines of base are used.

Example considering dks current rework

Dragonknight Capstone:
Dragon’s Might

For every dragonknight skill line gain 1000 penetration, 1% crit chance, 1% crit dmg, 100 weapon/spell dmg, 2% dmg reduction, and 2% reduced block cost. Embracing one’s affinity with the essence of a dragon grants one the power to eat worlds.

Added the last little bit of text for a flavor text for a class capstone example.

The suggested buffs of this passive may seem a bit high but a capstone should be a very powerful class capstone passive to make the choice to subclass that much harder to decide. Also base class will become even more important for making a subclassed build. Alternatively could lock capstone to staying pure class however multiply the above ideas by 3 to account for having all three skill lines as my idea allowing it usable by subclassed increases its power based on number of kept skill lines.

This solution has been thrown at the Devs many times. It seems like they are not going to take it. Even though I agree it's the simpliest of the solutions as I'm skeptical they can balance subclassing even after all the class reworks.

No harm in pushing something like this again devs seem more open to feedback and suggestions so perhaps between now and by end of class reworks can push for class capstones to balance the field between pure and sub class

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

To be fair if they do what they're doing now to DK to all classes, that is mixing up the skills in the skill lines so everything you'd need for damage, defense and or healing is not in one skill line, as well as increasing the power of certain skills the more dk skills you have in total, is basically this idea already.

Its as some have said just a matter of finding a sweet spot for the numbers and overall tweaking.

To an extent yes however they do need to give a little more as dks are packing pen and crit chance which most other classes have in their toolkit

Drackolus wrote: »

…The goal was to make pure classes viable, not to just remove subclassing while pretending it’s still there.

While I agree with everything you said, it is important to note that Lava Whip requiring a DK starting class for a massive damage increase is exactly the type of thing the OP is advocating for.

ZOS is in a spot where they either need to foster creativity, or bury it. And trying to do a mix of the both is going to make everyone unhappy.

Making Skill Lines only function based on what class you’re playing will kill Subclassing, and that’s exactly what they are doing.

It's tough to balance because in the history of Elder Scrolls 'classes' aren't a thing, so coming from other Elder Scrolls games can make the 'classes' feel wierd. However classes have been integral to ESO since launch and so exist as canon for this time period in Elder Scrolls history, also most players who've played the game for a while are used to the classes. When 'subclassing' was added it both; took ESO back to traditional Elder Scrolls games where classes are less of a thing, and removed all the class balance/restrictions but had no penalties. Now that Subclassing has been in the game for a year people are used to it and sticking to one class feels less rewarding.

It's just so complicated because you have so many players of all ages who've known Elder Scrolls for different amount of time all demanding something different.

Personally, while I really like the way they are knitting each classes skill lines together to make them more effective when you pureclass. When you are at the point of Subclassing it doesn't immediately feel like a meaningful choice. It may not be obvious to some players what they are loosing (other than the skill line) and which passives stop being activated when they choose to subclass. It should be really clear what players are loosing and what they are gaining.