Make Onslaught Unique again

MincMincMinc · January 23

We all know onslaught in its current 100% pen and 100% critchance is never going to last. They could reduce the timer to 2s and that's all it takes for most combos. I propose returning the ult back to its condition of needing to get a killing blow with the ult to get its ult return. Then have it give you a stacking 5k pen and 20% crit chance that lasts 5s for any target killed by onslaught.

So instead of getting a flat guaranteed 100%pen 100% crit you now need to properly combo and close out kills with the skill back to back. YES the ult could keep onslaughting....however groups will be seeing this happen and just need to shut it down with stuns or blocking or dodging the skill. Instead of dealing with a flat immediate 100% monster we see on PTS.

This not only gives counterplay back to the skill, but also makes the caster feel like they are actually going on an onslaught clubbing enemies. I based the 5k pen off of needing to kill 5 enemies to reach the average pvp resistance of 25k.

Berserkers rage you could give back the ult return on execute as well, I dont think this necessarily makes the skill take over the game either. It just makes it more unique than a bad singletarget dodgeable dawnbreaker that gives you immunity you probably already have.

React · January 23

The skill has counterplay, it's dodgeable and only lasts 5 seconds. It is extremely good on the PTS sure, but it is very refreshing to see people getting bursted again.

I think a lot of outrage about onslaught is coming from how strong shattering rocks is, because in its current form the counterplay to both (dodging) doesn't really work when your opponent can simply cast the shattering on you mid roll and have it connect when you exit.

I personally hope onslaught goes live as is. Would like to see shattering become truly dodgeable though, as in if it is cast on you when youre mid roll, you still dodge it.

Decimus · January 23

React wrote: »

The skill has counterplay, it's dodgeable and only lasts 5 seconds. It is extremely good on the PTS sure, but it is very refreshing to see people getting bursted again.

I think a lot of outrage about onslaught is coming from how strong shattering rocks is, because in its current form the counterplay to both (dodging) doesn't really work when your opponent can simply cast the shattering on you mid roll and have it connect when you exit.

I personally hope onslaught goes live as is. Would like to see shattering become truly dosgeable though, as in if it is cast on you when youre mid roll, you still dodge it.

Javelin with it is significantly worse though as a harder hitting ability (and the skill line providing absurd amounts of damage), the only counterplay to it being "guess" or never be in melee range (especially when combo'd with Kjalnar).

Best solution would be baked in critical resistance passives in skill lines not utilized by the burst meta, and these would even hit Onslaught (100% crit chance) more than they would builds utilizing Incap, Crescent etc to achieve the same results currently.

Let burst builds one shot each other, but it should take a bit more to kill a pressure build.

MincMincMinc · January 23

I guess can we really say something has counterplay by being dodgeable if there is only a 0.4s telegraph? Did the cast change on pts I cant remember? Even if you had a good 0.2s reaction time, the chance dodge actually goes off in time is slim.

Also my proposed concept helps prevent stall tank abuse by ignoring damage stats to tank but still achieving perfect damage stats with a one click wonder. Which we have been stuck with people playing boring stall builds into a 4 piece combo once a minute for what seems like years now.

React · January 23

Decimus wrote: »

React wrote: »

The skill has counterplay, it's dodgeable and only lasts 5 seconds. It is extremely good on the PTS sure, but it is very refreshing to see people getting bursted again.

I think a lot of outrage about onslaught is coming from how strong shattering rocks is, because in its current form the counterplay to both (dodging) doesn't really work when your opponent can simply cast the shattering on you mid roll and have it connect when you exit.

I personally hope onslaught goes live as is. Would like to see shattering become truly dosgeable though, as in if it is cast on you when youre mid roll, you still dodge it.

Javelin with it is significantly worse though as a harder hitting ability (and the skill line providing absurd amounts of damage), the only counterplay to it being "guess" or never be in melee range (especially when combo'd with Kjalnar).

Best solution would be baked in critical resistance passives in skill lines not utilized by the burst meta, and these would even hit Onslaught (100% crit chance) more than they would builds utilizing Incap, Crescent etc to achieve the same results currently.

Let burst builds one shot each other, but it should take a bit more to kill a pressure build.

Well against javelin you don't really need to guess. If you've got good reaction time, you can basically always break free ans roll before getting hit. Maybe not so much on the pts with the performance and ping, but on live this is usually the case.

The other thing is you can send multiple dodges in a row with a skill cast in between when your opponent doesnt have a way to stun you in roll, and it is very easy to do this to run out someone's 5 second onslaught timer. The only issue with this on the pts is the current functionality of shattering rocks. The stun is dodgeable, but the skill itself is not. If it is cast on you just after you roll, you get hit by it and there is nothing you can do. This should change so that if it is cast on you while rolling, it always misses. The same way most projectiles function.

The kjalnir thing is annoying sure, but that is more of a dueling thing. I personally wish it didn't exist, but it doesn't see much use in the pvp i like to do.

I don't mind more sources of crit resist being added to the game, as long as theyre careful not to overdo it. Really want to see the game reach a point reminiscent of the old days where damage was high but had adequate counterplay, and failing to counterplay would mean death.

Major_Mangle · January 23

Best way to make "turtle and burst" less attractive is to make the "turtle" part more challenging to do. Having burst metas is fine, but not if the burst specs are also allowed to be a walking fortress. Sustain being more or less free or very easy to achieve and champion points giving way too much survivability, has been issues for ages. Main reason I always preferred nocp PvP was because you didn´t have the same "free" survivability and sustain that CP offers, hence making fights in PvP have fewer stalemates and these kind of "tank and spank" builds (they do exist in nocp, but have much less room for error compared to in CP PvP).

MincMincMinc · January 23

React wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

React wrote: »

The skill has counterplay, it's dodgeable and only lasts 5 seconds. It is extremely good on the PTS sure, but it is very refreshing to see people getting bursted again.

I think a lot of outrage about onslaught is coming from how strong shattering rocks is, because in its current form the counterplay to both (dodging) doesn't really work when your opponent can simply cast the shattering on you mid roll and have it connect when you exit.

I personally hope onslaught goes live as is. Would like to see shattering become truly dosgeable though, as in if it is cast on you when youre mid roll, you still dodge it.

Javelin with it is significantly worse though as a harder hitting ability (and the skill line providing absurd amounts of damage), the only counterplay to it being "guess" or never be in melee range (especially when combo'd with Kjalnar).

Best solution would be baked in critical resistance passives in skill lines not utilized by the burst meta, and these would even hit Onslaught (100% crit chance) more than they would builds utilizing Incap, Crescent etc to achieve the same results currently.

Let burst builds one shot each other, but it should take a bit more to kill a pressure build.

Well against javelin you don't really need to guess. If you've got good reaction time, you can basically always break free ans roll before getting hit. Maybe not so much on the pts with the performance and ping, but on live this is usually the case.

The other thing is you can send multiple dodges in a row with a skill cast in between when your opponent doesnt have a way to stun you in roll, and it is very easy to do this to run out someone's 5 second onslaught timer. The only issue with this on the pts is the current functionality of shattering rocks. The stun is dodgeable, but the skill itself is not. If it is cast on you just after you roll, you get hit by it and there is nothing you can do. This should change so that if it is cast on you while rolling, it always misses. The same way most projectiles function.

The kjalnir thing is annoying sure, but that is more of a dueling thing. I personally wish it didn't exist, but it doesn't see much use in the pvp i like to do.

I don't mind more sources of crit resist being added to the game, as long as theyre careful not to overdo it. Really want to see the game reach a point reminiscent of the old days where damage was high but had adequate counterplay, and failing to counterplay would mean death.

Yeah jav travel time gives enough......granted I still block out of a decade of reflex

The problem with "dodge" as the counterplay is that now onslaught isnt only buffing dodgeable direct damage. I could stack you up with undodgeable unblockable damage, then onslaught and walk away. Wouldn't matter how much you dodge or block, its not like all builds have access to a purge skill besides the cp. The number of counterplay options and potential issues grows heavily now that everything gets 100% pen and crit guaranteed without needing to build for it stat wise or build up to it the hard way.

I imagine as they "finish" hybridization we could push them to add more crit resist sources like replacing the spell damage mundus that isnt needed. Or if they do potion changes and changes for jewlery enchants.

xylena · January 23

The Acuity effect is degenerate and always has been. It lets you run a max crit dmg build while ignoring any and all investment into crit chance (don't pretend this is the same as regen skills). Acuity, Onslaught, and the entire Assassination line should all be launched into the sun.

If one shot gameplay is intended, then I hope the new Warden gets a sniper rifle.

MincMincMinc · January 23

I think we can come up with something more interesting and fun to play than.......oh I stalled for 60s and now I can get infinite damage for 5s, here's a guaranteed kill.

tye77732145 · January 23

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We all know onslaught in its current 100% pen and 100% critchance is never going to last. They could reduce the timer to 2s and that's all it takes for most combos. I propose returning the ult back to its condition of needing to get a killing blow with the ult to get its ult return. Then have it give you a stacking 5k pen and 20% crit chance that lasts 5s for any target killed by onslaught.

So instead of getting a flat guaranteed 100%pen 100% crit you now need to properly combo and close out kills with the skill back to back. YES the ult could keep onslaughting....however groups will be seeing this happen and just need to shut it down with stuns or blocking or dodging the skill. Instead of dealing with a flat immediate 100% monster we see on PTS.

This not only gives counterplay back to the skill, but also makes the caster feel like they are actually going on an onslaught clubbing enemies. I based the 5k pen off of needing to kill 5 enemies to reach the average pvp resistance of 25k.

Berserkers rage you could give back the ult return on execute as well, I don't think this necessarily makes the skill take over the game either. It just makes it more unique than a bad singletarget dodgeable dawn breaker that gives you immunity you probably already have.

That’s a lot better than the 100% crit damage. Alternatively, they could simply keep the original version and give it a modest damage buff instead.

I’ve already seen one or two people saying they hope to see it on Live, of course they do

. That just means more time leaning on Heart and Home, sitting in a healing circle with 40k health, waiting with their wittle "Onslaught ultimate", stacking 500 Balorgh, and deleting someone with Onslaught for a free win. It’s honestly sad that so many players resort to the laziest possible way to win instead of relying on actual skill, learn the game.

To me, it says a lot about a person’s character when they need a “one skill = kill” crutch just to compete, so they can finally feel like they’re winning. That kind of win is hollow at best. The state of it is so bad that if you don’t play this style, you’re effectively bound to lose.

All you see on PTS right now is Heart and Home: two tanky 40k health players hitting each other, neither doing meaningful damage, literal tickles until one pops Onslaught and wins. Then they re-duel. The other catches them with Onslaught and wins. Re-duel again. Rinse and repeat. It’s genuinely painful to watch.

I’ve seen people bring up Shattering Rocks, and I’ll say the same thing here that I told them in the Rift: "nine times out of ten, people survive after a Shattering Rocks stun? no? okay, but how many times do you survive an Onslaught? Exactly, Almost never". I get shattering facilitates the combo by a bit, but The real issue isn’t Shattering; it’s Onslaught. Even if shattering rocks was made an instant stun, you hit person with onslaught first for the buff and right away you stun the person followed by a heavy hitting ability, it's GG either way. What all seems to not really be thinking about is you all will be fighting with subclasses that have instant stuns and crazy damage and it will be a nightmare.

If Shattering Rocks does get adjusted, make it instant but a bit dodgeable, similar to Templar Javelin. But Heart and Home and Onslaught? Those need real nerfs. They’ve got to go.

Vaqual · January 23

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I think we can come up with something more interesting and fun to play than.......oh I stalled for 60s and now I can get infinite damage for 5s, here's a guaranteed kill.

That hits the nail on the head. This design has been the games prime issue for the longest time, with varying degrees of severity. Things like Balorgh, Acuity, etc. with their absurdly high numeric values of offensive stats just enable players to play heavily into defenses, while still retaining high kill potential. They are intended as tank-killers, but ironically end up as cornerstones of the most defensive setups.
I just want a version of Onslaught that makes sense and feels at least equivalent to Dawnbreaker. But also one that is sustainable and one that we can actually keep. Since the 2h passives give no inherent scaling, the ability itself would need to have a slight egde, but 21900 Crit chance + infite Penetration is not exactly the first thing that comes to mind.

Decimus · January 23

I assume there's a typo and it's supposed to say when Battle Spirit is inactive:

Two-Handed Skill Line
Berserker Strike: Onslaught [Feedback]: Based on community feedback, we are adjusting the Onslaught morph’s 100% Critical Chance buff so that it now only activates when Battle Spirit is active. Similarly to Corrosive Armor, we’re removing some of the oppressive power this Ultimate can provide in PvP and keeping it where our goals are aimed at. This change will go in with the PTS Week 3 incremental patch.

So prepare your Incaps or Crescents... and/or permablock and wait for crit luck to align for X minutes/hours for a duel to end.

Fundamentally changes nothing.

MincMincMinc · January 23

Decimus wrote: »

I assume there's a typo and it's supposed to say when Battle Spirit is inactive:

Two-Handed Skill Line
Berserker Strike: Onslaught [Feedback]: Based on community feedback, we are adjusting the Onslaught morph’s 100% Critical Chance buff so that it now only activates when Battle Spirit is active. Similarly to Corrosive Armor, we’re removing some of the oppressive power this Ultimate can provide in PvP and keeping it where our goals are aimed at. This change will go in with the PTS Week 3 incremental patch.

So prepare your Incaps or Crescents... and/or permablock and wait for crit luck to align for X minutes/hours for a duel to end.

Fundamentally changes nothing.

Welp acuity is back on the menu I guess......ughhhhh. Man remember back to the old days where we had like 6 different WD sets and multiple mag stat sets to choose from? Now its acuity or essence on everything

FoJul · January 23

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I assume there's a typo and it's supposed to say when Battle Spirit is inactive:

Two-Handed Skill Line
Berserker Strike: Onslaught [Feedback]: Based on community feedback, we are adjusting the Onslaught morph’s 100% Critical Chance buff so that it now only activates when Battle Spirit is active. Similarly to Corrosive Armor, we’re removing some of the oppressive power this Ultimate can provide in PvP and keeping it where our goals are aimed at. This change will go in with the PTS Week 3 incremental patch.

So prepare your Incaps or Crescents... and/or permablock and wait for crit luck to align for X minutes/hours for a duel to end.

Fundamentally changes nothing.

Welp acuity is back on the menu I guess......ughhhhh. Man remember back to the old days where we had like 6 different WD sets and multiple mag stat sets to choose from? Now its acuity or essence on everything

Yeah im so sick of crit build myself.

MincMincMinc · January 23

FoJul wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

I assume there's a typo and it's supposed to say when Battle Spirit is inactive:

Two-Handed Skill Line
Berserker Strike: Onslaught [Feedback]: Based on community feedback, we are adjusting the Onslaught morph’s 100% Critical Chance buff so that it now only activates when Battle Spirit is active. Similarly to Corrosive Armor, we’re removing some of the oppressive power this Ultimate can provide in PvP and keeping it where our goals are aimed at. This change will go in with the PTS Week 3 incremental patch.

So prepare your Incaps or Crescents... and/or permablock and wait for crit luck to align for X minutes/hours for a duel to end.

Fundamentally changes nothing.

Welp acuity is back on the menu I guess......ughhhhh. Man remember back to the old days where we had like 6 different WD sets and multiple mag stat sets to choose from? Now its acuity or essence on everything

Yeah im so sick of crit build myself.

Started subclassing with the pelican setup, and circled all the way back around to it again lol.

Again my OP concept design forces you to run actual damage to make use of the ult and get rewarded for doing proper combos. Instead of stall tanking lining up 5 procs once a minute.