Why is Poison DK archetype completely destroyed in the new DK refresh?

vadritox2 · January 22

I really don't understand why do we need to removed the Poison DK build. There were plenty of flame damage sources in DK already, enough for a burning build, why make ALL skills in DK be ONLY flame damage. How is limiting build variety a good direction for class refreshes? Poison DK was literally the only archetype on which Scavenging Demise was a viable option, and now this set will be completely useless, yet another item to the collection to obsolete sets.

xylena · January 22

I felt the same way when they first made the mag/stam cp split, and stam DK was now poison instead of earth / rock / physical like it was at launch.

I wouldn't mourn sets though, they're always gonna push sets in and out of the meta to keep the gear treadmill running and sell DLC.

tomofhyrule · January 22

They did say poison would move to another class.

In all technicality, DK didn’t start with poison. All of its skill lines are named based on fire/rock ideology. It was only later that they added poison to give a “stam option,” which is now obsolete thanks to hybridization since flame can be the stam option as well.

I know this is giving people fears of other damage types being shuffled around, but I’m sure Warden’s frost and Sorc’s lighting are safe as those are directly names of various class lines. But DK doesn’t have a line called “Poisoned Blood” or something.

I could guess poison is moving to Nightblade (unless they move NB to bleed and give poison to Warden along with frost). There is also the chance that each Class could focus on one single damage type, which means we’re a Class short because there are eight damage types (fire, frost, shock, magic, bleed, poison, disease, physical). I guess we’ll see when Warden’s thing is out.

Radiate77 · January 22

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I could guess poison is moving to Nightblade (unless they move NB to bleed and give poison to Warden along with frost). There is also the chance that each Class could focus on one single damage type, which means we’re a Class short because there are eight damage types (fire, frost, shock, magic, bleed, poison, disease, physical). I guess we’ll see when Warden’s thing is out.

What if we got a new class at the end of our reworks to embody that damage type?

MashmalloMan · January 22

I'm fine with it despite initially being upset because of the following:

I could easily see a scribing modification added that allows the player to convert all of a classes elemental damage from one type to another, but a set list. DK would start with Physical and Poison as options.
Many morphs that have been converted to flame instead of both elements behave nearly identical now, the fact that they were green really served no purpose. In the previous version, you were basically forced into Poison Claw and Flame Breath for example, it's not like you could hyper focus on 1 element or the other, you always ended up with a mix.
Many classes could use poison better like Arcanist, Nightblade, or Warden. From a first glance, DK has a very distinct colour palet of orange which is very obviously flame based, not poison based. Warden has a green/cyan colour theme and is next up for the reworks, so it feels like the most obvious new home for a Poison vs Frost fantasy they're rebuilding. To have it also tacked on to DK would feel out of place, I want classes to feel distinct and it starts with making elements and bonuses for classes more specific/niche, so they're not easily combined using subclassing.

My only gripe is much of the DK kit kinda ignores stamina. Whip, Dragonbreath, Heart of Flame, and Magma Fist should either scale based on highest resource, lowest resource, or a split cost between the two.

tomofhyrule · January 22

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I could guess poison is moving to Nightblade (unless they move NB to bleed and give poison to Warden along with frost). There is also the chance that each Class could focus on one single damage type, which means we’re a Class short because there are eight damage types (fire, frost, shock, magic, bleed, poison, disease, physical). I guess we’ll see when Warden’s thing is out.

What if we got a new class at the end of our reworks to embody that damage type?

I will take literally any excuse to give me a new Class at this point. But since I’ve had so long without one to ruminate, I have unfortunately come up with two more characters I need so now I need two Classes.

This is one of the main reasons I’m interested to see what they do to Warden, whether it becomes a frost/bleed setup or whether it is entirely changed to frost (implying an 8th Class will come for the last damage type… but also implying that 8 is it). DK’s lines do all lean fire, but Warden does easily lean toward two damage types using frost and then either bleed or poison (Animals and Plants easily fall into one of those types so the two non-frost Warden lines could be unified to that damage type).

But yeah, I’m absolutely at the “give me two more classes in whatever way they come out, but hurry it up pls” state.

Radiate77 · January 22

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I could guess poison is moving to Nightblade (unless they move NB to bleed and give poison to Warden along with frost). There is also the chance that each Class could focus on one single damage type, which means we’re a Class short because there are eight damage types (fire, frost, shock, magic, bleed, poison, disease, physical). I guess we’ll see when Warden’s thing is out.

What if we got a new class at the end of our reworks to embody that damage type?

I will take literally any excuse to give me a new Class at this point. But since I’ve had so long without one to ruminate, I have unfortunately come up with two more characters I need so now I need two Classes.

This is one of the main reasons I’m interested to see what they do to Warden, whether it becomes a frost/bleed setup or whether it is entirely changed to frost (implying an 8th Class will come for the last damage type… but also implying that 8 is it). DK’s lines do all lean fire, but Warden does easily lean toward two damage types using frost and then either bleed or poison (Animals and Plants easily fall into one of those types so the two non-frost Warden lines could be unified to that damage type).

But yeah, I’m absolutely at the “give me two more classes in whatever way they come out, but hurry it up pls” state.

Yeah, I’ve been waiting to get my Death Knight built until I know how Winter’s Embrace will look.

My biggest concern with this transitory state ESO is in, is with our upcoming updates I have no idea if we will be able to repeat quests on harder difficulties, so I haven’t touched a quest in months, and I don’t want to play around with Subclassing until I know how our skills will land.

tsaescishoeshiner · January 22

If DK hadn't launched with poison, I don't think there would be requests for it. I think a poison archetype would make a lot more sense in a class like Nightblade, Warden, or Necromancer. Especially if Bows and Dual Wield get a bit more poison.

Arcanasx · January 23

Good riddance. Poison was only ever added to DK because of the champion point system and now that we have hybridization it's no longer needed. Better to have it on a class that can better represent a poisonous theme instead of cannibalizing DK's original identity.

UntilValhalla13 · January 23

I'm guessing it will go to nightblades, because it fits the rogue archetype. Poison, traps, stealth, and daggers. One can hope anyway.

MindOfTheSwarm · January 23

I imagine Warden will get the poison stuff. Plants and stuff.

xylena · January 23

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

If DK hadn't launched with poison

It didn't launch with poison. Stam DK was magma / rock / earth / physical at launch.

The first iteration of Noxious Breath looked like literal vomit. Players were not happy with Stam DK being given poison when it would've made more thematic sense on the rogue assassin class. It was also a pure contrivance for the sake of a cp split that no longer exists.

Personofsecrets · January 23

xylena wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

If DK hadn't launched with poison

It didn't launch with poison. Stam DK was magma / rock / earth / physical at launch.

The first iteration of Noxious Breath looked like literal vomit. Players were not happy with Stam DK being given poison when it would've made more thematic sense on the rogue assassin class. It was also a pure contrivance for the sake of a cp split that no longer exists.

Well, the issue now is that the current DK balance update is a contrivance for the sake of designers walking back their own design choices and having the appearance of doing something about sub-classing complaints which largely stem from non-DK classes.

wilsonwjesse · 4:34AM

There seems to be a misunderstanding of ESO lore. DK's got a "Protect the Brood" skill. Dragons in ESO don't have a brood. They are timeless eternal entities and they breath fire, frost, and shock. They could even breath acid I suppose which is what the original class was.

They should remove all damage type buffs from all skill lines. Remove all fire, AoE/DoT, Shock, Physical, Frost damage buffs should be removed. Once that is done:
Claw should go back to a version with poison or bleed.
Burning Talons should be Piercing Talons and deal bleed damage.
Disintegrating Dragonfire should do poison and the name should be dragonbreath not dragonfire.
Engulfing Dragonfire should be dragonbreath and should do fire OR the type of staff you have. The destro staff passives should also be reworked. I'd be happier with more spell/weapon damage than the type of damage modifiers. Heavy attack bonus is a big enough distinction for them. They should also effect more abilities type of damage.
Take flight should go back to Phys.

xylena · 10:14AM

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

They could even breath acid I suppose which is what the original class was.

Again. Not the original, which was very clearly fire / earth / magma with mostly flame and a couple physical damage. The poison was added a year in, like 2015, for the old cp split.

Thumbless_Bot · 1:46PM

Radiate77 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I could guess poison is moving to Nightblade (unless they move NB to bleed and give poison to Warden along with frost). There is also the chance that each Class could focus on one single damage type, which means we’re a Class short because there are eight damage types (fire, frost, shock, magic, bleed, poison, disease, physical). I guess we’ll see when Warden’s thing is out.

What if we got a new class at the end of our reworks to embody that damage type?

That was really strong... and behind a pay wall. Seems legit.

Chilly-McFreeze · 1:55PM

xylena wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

They could even breath acid I suppose which is what the original class was.

Again. Not the original, which was very clearly fire / earth / magma with mostly flame and a couple physical damage. The poison was added a year in, like 2015, for the old cp split.

Yes, but it does not really matter now. A large chunk of the current player base wasn't around in the first year. So they couldn't care less about what DK was eleven years ago. Yet they very well know what they are losing right now.
And then again. Hurricane didn't existed until mid 2016, yet it's an iconic skill no one would argue to take away from sorcs because "the class didn't launch like this".

They are simply taking away a playstyle and maybe enable something similar later (earliest 6-9 months, if ever).

iyx · 3:04PM

I can judge mostly from a roleplaying perspective, and I think it's a bad idea to remove variant that's been in the game for ten years, and around which many players built their characters. Someone could create their own build around the most unnecessary skill, and the poison morphs on the DK were far from useless.
I wonder if they'll add green styles for the changed skills, to at least visually reflect the old spec, before poisons are added to another class.

wilsonwjesse · 7:05PM

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

They could even breath acid I suppose which is what the original class was.

Again. Not the original, which was very clearly fire / earth / magma with mostly flame and a couple physical damage. The poison was added a year in, like 2015, for the old cp split.

Yes, but it does not really matter now. A large chunk of the current player base wasn't around in the first year. So they couldn't care less about what DK was eleven years ago. Yet they very well know what they are losing right now.
And then again. Hurricane didn't existed until mid 2016, yet it's an iconic skill no one would argue to take away from sorcs because "the class didn't launch like this".

They are simply taking away a playstyle and maybe enable something similar later (earliest 6-9 months, if ever).

Also I was there when the game first came out. I don't care that it was poison in the past either. I don't want each class to only do one thing. Poison makes some sense for a dragon. Disease and Magic are the only ones that don't make sense for the dragonknight.

I just want more variety, but most importantly I want them to remove the damage type buffs from all lines: Fire, Shock, Phys, Frost, AoE. It makes subclasing restrictive and better than pureclassing.