I'm happy the DOT portion of corrosive was removed, on the PTS it was doing absurd numbers. Something had to give for sure, and with the dot doing such silly "free" damage that felt like the lowest hanging fruit to me. That said, they probably didn't need to also raise the defensive cap even further. I think week one's 8% damage cap would be totally reasonable now given the DOT has been removed. 12% seems a bit overkill.

The whip definitely didn't need to lose the spell damage, but I think they're assuming that the damage loss in PVP from that change will be offset by the new 10% crit damage they added to blessing at the peak in those same notes. They're probably pretty close in value, but I think most PVP players would prefer the weapon damage as it is more widely useful than the crit damage. If they're choosing one or the other, I personally don't care either way.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Here's the problem... on PTS:

1. 30k Health Build, pop Corrosive Armor and engage with your ultimate that is supposed to give you an offensive window by actually reducing incoming damage. Damage taken reduced to 12% of Maximum Health.
2. Get CC'd by X.
3. Get hit by random Nightblade, Light Attack (2000~ damage), Surprise Attack (3600 damage), Sundered Proc (1500~ damage)
4. Get hit by a random Crushing Shock from 28m away, take 3x 3600 damage and another 3x 1000~ damage from status procs.
5. Get hit by a random arcanist beam from someone doing PvP for the first time on their full damage PvE parse setup. 3 ticks for 3600 damage.
6. Take 31 700 Damage total, your health bar. You are now dead.

Genuine question here (and this may just be a BGs vs OW Cyro difference), but what build are you running where crushing shock on it's own (ignoring status procs, set procs, LAs, etc. that land at the same time) is dealing (actually dealing, not just tooltipping) 3x3600 damage against you?

That is borderline actual tooltip damage, crushing shock tooltips for ~3x4k damage at roughly 5.6k weapon/spell damage, as such, these being actual damage values received, should only be happening if you have literally zero resistances (even 10-15k resistances (which is still low for squishy builds with both breach debuffs inflicted on them) will reduce it to like 2-2.5k x3 which would be below the 8% threshold it was on week 1 PTS anyway).

Here's a full DPS setup using 3 meta DPS lines and 2 meta damage sets and crushing shock with nearly 6k spell damage barely gets over 4k per instance for it's tooltip and this is on the wiki builder that actually shows in the tooltips the damage increase that don't show up in the in-game tooltips such as crit chance, crit damage, pen, debuffs, etc.

The active buffs that are boosting Crushing Shock to the shown tooltip:
- 5.8k weapon/spell damage (including a 150 balorghs)
- 3! slotted damage champion points
- 3 infused spell damage jewelry
- Rallying Cry active no group members so full value
- Essence Thief proc'd
- Lightning staff 12% direct damage bonus
- Only thing missing is the continuous buff (+10% weapon/spell damage)
- Dark Elf race for weapon/spell damage instead of khajiit for crit damage (still hits 111% crit damage)
- Lover mundus for ~10k pen before balorghs/breach

Bar layout because the tooltip for crushing shock is hiding it:

Empty slots are contingency and heal soul

This is a giga squishy build with 24k resistances on the back bar (20k front bar) and only 1 single defensive champion point, yet it barely tooltips for 3x4k on Crushing Shock and that's the tooltip damage, not the actual damage done after applying battle spirit, player armor, percent mitigations, block, etc.

Even accounting for a crit on all 3 of crushing shocks damage instances, that is still a stretch to be hitting tooltip values through all the percent mitigation bonuses, armor, and other ways to mitigate damage that players have access to.

He most likely was in a glass cannon dk build and got nuked, or he went against a glass cannon pulse ganker and got nuked.

hoangdz wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Here's the problem... on PTS:

1. 30k Health Build, pop Corrosive Armor and engage with your ultimate that is supposed to give you an offensive window by actually reducing incoming damage. Damage taken reduced to 12% of Maximum Health.
2. Get CC'd by X.
3. Get hit by random Nightblade, Light Attack (2000~ damage), Surprise Attack (3600 damage), Sundered Proc (1500~ damage)
4. Get hit by a random Crushing Shock from 28m away, take 3x 3600 damage and another 3x 1000~ damage from status procs.
5. Get hit by a random arcanist beam from someone doing PvP for the first time on their full damage PvE parse setup. 3 ticks for 3600 damage.
6. Take 31 700 Damage total, your health bar. You are now dead.

Genuine question here (and this may just be a BGs vs OW Cyro difference), but what build are you running where crushing shock on it's own (ignoring status procs, set procs, LAs, etc. that land at the same time) is dealing (actually dealing, not just tooltipping) 3x3600 damage against you?

That is borderline actual tooltip damage, crushing shock tooltips for ~3x4k damage at roughly 5.6k weapon/spell damage, as such, these being actual damage values received, should only be happening if you have literally zero resistances (even 10-15k resistances (which is still low for squishy builds with both breach debuffs inflicted on them) will reduce it to like 2-2.5k x3 which would be below the 8% threshold it was on week 1 PTS anyway).

Here's a full DPS setup using 3 meta DPS lines and 2 meta damage sets and crushing shock with nearly 6k spell damage barely gets over 4k per instance for it's tooltip and this is on the wiki builder that actually shows in the tooltips the damage increase that don't show up in the in-game tooltips such as crit chance, crit damage, pen, debuffs, etc.

The active buffs that are boosting Crushing Shock to the shown tooltip:
- 5.8k weapon/spell damage (including a 150 balorghs)
- 3! slotted damage champion points
- 3 infused spell damage jewelry
- Rallying Cry active no group members so full value
- Essence Thief proc'd
- Lightning staff 12% direct damage bonus
- Only thing missing is the continuous buff (+10% weapon/spell damage)
- Dark Elf race for weapon/spell damage instead of khajiit for crit damage (still hits 111% crit damage)
- Lover mundus for ~10k pen before balorghs/breach

Bar layout because the tooltip for crushing shock is hiding it:

Empty slots are contingency and heal soul

This is a giga squishy build with 24k resistances on the back bar (20k front bar) and only 1 single defensive champion point, yet it barely tooltips for 3x4k on Crushing Shock and that's the tooltip damage, not the actual damage done after applying battle spirit, player armor, percent mitigations, block, etc.

Even accounting for a crit on all 3 of crushing shocks damage instances, that is still a stretch to be hitting tooltip values through all the percent mitigation bonuses, armor, and other ways to mitigate damage that players have access to.

I have been hit by a 3x2k crit Crushing Shock on my tank build, but that was from a full damage ganker. Most Crushing Shock crits for 3x1.2k for me, which turns out to be about 3.6k total. That's a normal value for how much mitigation I'm running. So yea, I'm wondering myself how he's getting hit that hard.

Defintely a pulse ganker, or a full crit damage incap with blood for blood easily. Worse part and likely he probably running 1-2 heavy at best, probably one reinforced and like 5 crit damage resist on the body.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Here's the problem... on PTS:

1. 30k Health Build, pop Corrosive Armor and engage with your ultimate that is supposed to give you an offensive window by actually reducing incoming damage. Damage taken reduced to 12% of Maximum Health.
2. Get CC'd by X.
3. Get hit by random Nightblade, Light Attack (2000~ damage), Surprise Attack (3600 damage), Sundered Proc (1500~ damage)
4. Get hit by a random Crushing Shock from 28m away, take 3x 3600 damage and another 3x 1000~ damage from status procs.
5. Get hit by a random arcanist beam from someone doing PvP for the first time on their full damage PvE parse setup. 3 ticks for 3600 damage.
6. Take 31 700 Damage total, your health bar. You are now dead.

Genuine question here (and this may just be a BGs vs OW Cyro difference), but what build are you running where crushing shock on it's own (ignoring status procs, set procs, LAs, etc. that land at the same time) is dealing (actually dealing, not just tooltipping) 3x3600 damage against you?

That is borderline actual tooltip damage, crushing shock tooltips for ~3x4k damage at roughly 5.6k weapon/spell damage, as such, these being actual damage values received, should only be happening if you have literally zero resistances (even 10-15k resistances (which is still low for squishy builds with both breach debuffs inflicted on them) will reduce it to like 2-2.5k x3 which would be below the 8% threshold it was on week 1 PTS anyway).

Here's a full DPS setup using 3 meta DPS lines and 2 meta damage sets and crushing shock with nearly 6k spell damage barely gets over 4k per instance for it's tooltip and this is on the wiki builder that actually shows in the tooltips the damage increase that don't show up in the in-game tooltips such as crit chance, crit damage, pen, debuffs, etc.

The active buffs that are boosting Crushing Shock to the shown tooltip:
- 5.8k weapon/spell damage (including a 150 balorghs)
- 3! slotted damage champion points
- 3 infused spell damage jewelry
- Rallying Cry active no group members so full value
- Essence Thief proc'd
- Lightning staff 12% direct damage bonus
- Only thing missing is the continuous buff (+10% weapon/spell damage)
- Dark Elf race for weapon/spell damage instead of khajiit for crit damage (still hits 111% crit damage)
- Lover mundus for ~10k pen before balorghs/breach

Bar layout because the tooltip for crushing shock is hiding it:

Empty slots are contingency and heal soul

This is a giga squishy build with 24k resistances on the back bar (20k front bar) and only 1 single defensive champion point, yet it barely tooltips for 3x4k on Crushing Shock and that's the tooltip damage, not the actual damage done after applying battle spirit, player armor, percent mitigations, block, etc.

Even accounting for a crit on all 3 of crushing shocks damage instances, that is still a stretch to be hitting tooltip values through all the percent mitigation bonuses, armor, and other ways to mitigate damage that players have access to.

Just a crude example of what could happen (I even didn't include light attack or glyph etc there), but you can definitely take 11-12k from a normal spammable alone if a ganker crits on you.

You have 4k per hit on your tooltip, right? Deduct 50% (Battle Spirit), assume full pen on a typical Corro build that'd run 7 divines on Live and you're taking up to 4,5k per hit (2000+125% Crit Damage). Likely won't hit that hard, but just an example.


A little disclaimer that this isn't a real event that happened (well, the live server version probably has been, many times) - you cannot find multiple people to zerg you in IC on PTS... So I'm explaining with the numbers and a tangible scenario why the changes will ruin Corrosive as an ability for the content most people prefer when it comes to ESO's PvP (i.e. not dueling/1v1s).

xylena wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

It'd be nice to hear a bit more of an explanation on why the developers thought these changes needed to happen and why the defensive aspect of Corrosive was targeted when it is something that no one really complained about.

Whip - you yourself acknowledged the potential for one shots (you said the charged up whip TT is comparable to spec bow) so while it's frustrating that they don't address the existing one shots, this seems appropriate for a future PvP standard of "no more instant deaths"

Corrosive - in practice the defensive component meant that opponents would stall the fight for 10 seconds or simply disengage. So in any real fight all Corrosive did was stall and reset, who cares about clowning on unaware opponents, you can do that with anything

I'm glad they're keeping PvP DK focused on pressure damage and off-balance skill shots, not Corrosive-Whip one shots. I'm also happy to see more "against monsters" being used, can't wait to see the NB rework where spec bow is now only "against monsters" xD

That's all cool and all, but as long as defensive power remains how it is, this won't be the patch of the dragonknight... It'll still be patch of assassination+animal/aedric and won't be any different from the last 6+ months of the worst meta this game has ever had.

Why would you go through the trouble of putting DoTs up on the target and pressuring if you can just pick the subclassing lines with biggest oogabooga damage and one shot whomever you're fighting? All while sitting comfortably in netch+rune permablock with infinite sustain.

Also Corrosive on a proper min-max'd build on Live allowed you the defense and damage to go after back line healers in BGs etc and just wipe the floor with them. Of course it took skill and knowledge to utilize correctly, hence why you probably have that opinion of it - very rare to see a good Corrosive DK.

This won't be doable next patch and my opinion as this game's top PvP theorycrafter (by results, 52.8 KDR & 75% WR) is that it will see zero use on good builds after it is made near useless defensively

Onslaught, subclass to Crescent or Incap, Leap... All vastly better options next patch on every build.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Here's the problem... on PTS:

1. 30k Health Build, pop Corrosive Armor and engage with your ultimate that is supposed to give you an offensive window by actually reducing incoming damage. Damage taken reduced to 12% of Maximum Health.
2. Get CC'd by X.
3. Get hit by random Nightblade, Light Attack (2000~ damage), Surprise Attack (3600 damage), Sundered Proc (1500~ damage)
4. Get hit by a random Crushing Shock from 28m away, take 3x 3600 damage and another 3x 1000~ damage from status procs.
5. Get hit by a random arcanist beam from someone doing PvP for the first time on their full damage PvE parse setup. 3 ticks for 3600 damage.
6. Take 31 700 Damage total, your health bar. You are now dead.

Genuine question here (and this may just be a BGs vs OW Cyro difference), but what build are you running where crushing shock on it's own (ignoring status procs, set procs, LAs, etc. that land at the same time) is dealing (actually dealing, not just tooltipping) 3x3600 damage against you?

That is borderline actual tooltip damage, crushing shock tooltips for ~3x4k damage at roughly 5.6k weapon/spell damage, as such, these being actual damage values received, should only be happening if you have literally zero resistances (even 10-15k resistances (which is still low for squishy builds with both breach debuffs inflicted on them) will reduce it to like 2-2.5k x3 which would be below the 8% threshold it was on week 1 PTS anyway).

Here's a full DPS setup using 3 meta DPS lines and 2 meta damage sets and crushing shock with nearly 6k spell damage barely gets over 4k per instance for it's tooltip and this is on the wiki builder that actually shows in the tooltips the damage increase that don't show up in the in-game tooltips such as crit chance, crit damage, pen, debuffs, etc.

The active buffs that are boosting Crushing Shock to the shown tooltip:
- 5.8k weapon/spell damage (including a 150 balorghs)
- 3! slotted damage champion points
- 3 infused spell damage jewelry
- Rallying Cry active no group members so full value
- Essence Thief proc'd
- Lightning staff 12% direct damage bonus
- Only thing missing is the continuous buff (+10% weapon/spell damage)
- Dark Elf race for weapon/spell damage instead of khajiit for crit damage (still hits 111% crit damage)
- Lover mundus for ~10k pen before balorghs/breach

Bar layout because the tooltip for crushing shock is hiding it:

Empty slots are contingency and heal soul

This is a giga squishy build with 24k resistances on the back bar (20k front bar) and only 1 single defensive champion point, yet it barely tooltips for 3x4k on Crushing Shock and that's the tooltip damage, not the actual damage done after applying battle spirit, player armor, percent mitigations, block, etc.

Even accounting for a crit on all 3 of crushing shocks damage instances, that is still a stretch to be hitting tooltip values through all the percent mitigation bonuses, armor, and other ways to mitigate damage that players have access to.

He most likely was in a glass cannon dk build and got nuked, or he went against a glass cannon pulse ganker and got nuked.

The reason I'm curious about it is that I have ran uber glass cannon magDK in the past (literal 26k max health, when 30k was the norm, 64 points into mag, 6L/1M armor, bomb build loadout) and sure I would take damage, but it never felt squishy (even had 2 sweats full sweat-lording me outside Sej 2v1 and they couldn't kill me even though I wasn't using corrosive).

It's why I really do struggle to see how anyone can see those sorts of numbers against them, especially now where there's so much mitigation (armor and percent values) available that medium armor is the literal BiS weight for tanking due to the sustain, bonuses and cost reductions it gives for things tanks struggle with such as roll dodge and movement speed as well as the block bonuses and the free damage/crit to buff healing helps as well). The mitigation access is very relevant especially with champion points, hence why I asked straight up if it was simply a BG vs Cyro difference.

I personally run 40,000 armor and getting blow away by players who aren't even ganking. There are builds that are way overtuned and instead of changing actual overpowered game pieces, the designers are picking DK apart when it hasn't even been contributing to toxic gameplay in a meaningful way and has worse tools compared to other classes.

Decimus wrote: »

Also the focus on Onslaught is funny

The only way to rein in the one shot crit damage meta

I dislike Acuity the same way, you're right there are bigger problems, like Assassination, which I crusaded to nerf for months on end, maybe the new dev team can do something to it short term so we're not stuck with this crap for years waiting for the NB rework.

But I don't recall ever being "one shotted" by a bow or jav combo unless there were procs from Null Arca and/or Kjalnar to spike their burst from 25-30k to 40k+ and RoA is its own disaster. There is no defending an effective 40% damage buff from a 5pc proc set.

There are endless ways devs could address the crit damage problem. Your suggestion is to let me play an un-burstable pure dot DK? Sure, I'm fine with that

xylena wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Also the focus on Onslaught is funny

The only way to rein in the one shot crit damage meta

I dislike Acuity the same way, you're right there are bigger problems, like Assassination, which I crusaded to nerf for months on end, maybe the new dev team can do something to it short term so we're not stuck with this crap for years waiting for the NB rework.

But I don't recall ever being "one shotted" by a bow or jav combo unless there were procs from Null Arca and/or Kjalnar to spike their burst from 25-30k to 40k+ and RoA is its own disaster. There is no defending an effective 40% damage buff from a 5pc proc set.

There are endless ways devs could address the crit damage problem. Your suggestion is to let me play an un-burstable pure dot DK? Sure, I'm fine with that

I think every class that gets reworked should have a passive put in there for 300/600 crit would be nice

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Wow, these changes are really bad. If this goes through, there really is no point in using corrosive at all and we'll all just stick to using spell wall instead or a subclassed ult on the back bar, anything but corrosive. The skill only lasts ten seconds, its not as crazy as warden's Northern Storm. No dot damage, weak damage mitigation, the only plus is the no pen required.

The no pen thing is funny too because it conflicts with game pieces that provide pen in strong and efficient ways. It's funny that an ultimate skill which should feel strong and cool get's this calculus behind it about exactly how much value is lost by having another source of pen.

Just DK things. Just the designers treating DK in a heavy handed way while other classes are running around doing nutso things.

Who else gets pure dysynergy and "nonbos" built right in to their classes identity? I doubt other classes will be treated this way moving forward.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Wow, these changes are really bad. If this goes through, there really is no point in using corrosive at all and we'll all just stick to using spell wall instead or a subclassed ult on the back bar, anything but corrosive. The skill only lasts ten seconds, its not as crazy as warden's Northern Storm. No dot damage, weak damage mitigation, the only plus is the no pen required.

Who else gets pure dysynergy and "nonbos" built right in to their classes identity? I doubt other classes will be treated this way moving forward.

Why do people keep acting like this isn't a new beginning for class balance as a whole, you can use the current context of the game for reference, but let's not pretend DK is the ugly step child when we don't even understand how other classes will change yet. I understand it may be frustrating to wait for the next 2 years, but honestly it's no different than the past 10, meta's shift, at least we can see a major overhaul instead of a random number change like years past.

I can only hope every other class gets the same level of polish from top to bottom DK is receiving. You may disagree with their balancing decisions, but there is a lot of good there, we can see the intent, and nothing about it is directly malicious just because you don't like your class getting weaker in 1 area or another. Let's stop playing the victim and provide meaningful feedback they can action upon or guess what, it will remain as is.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Wow, these changes are really bad. If this goes through, there really is no point in using corrosive at all and we'll all just stick to using spell wall instead or a subclassed ult on the back bar, anything but corrosive. The skill only lasts ten seconds, its not as crazy as warden's Northern Storm. No dot damage, weak damage mitigation, the only plus is the no pen required.

Who else gets pure dysynergy and "nonbos" built right in to their classes identity? I doubt other classes will be treated this way moving forward.

Why do people keep acting like this isn't a new beginning for class balance as a whole, you can use the current context of the game for reference, but let's not pretend DK is the ugly step child when we don't even understand how other classes will change yet. I understand it may be frustrating to wait for the next 2 years, but honestly it's no different than the past 10, meta's shift, at least we can see a major overhaul instead of a random number change like years past.

I can only hope every other class gets the same level of polish from top to bottom DK is receiving. You may disagree with their balancing decisions, but there is a lot of good there, we can see the intent, and nothing about it is directly malicious just because you don't like your class getting weaker in 1 area or another. Let's stop playing the victim and provide meaningful feedback they can action upon or guess what, it will remain as is.

None of that matters if the "balancing" means we keep the status quo and subclassing builds are still vastly outperforming a pure DK.

Basically we just get new visual effects and some new tools, but you'll never see those used because you're trolling or trying to be a special snowflake by playing anything not involving bow procs & Restoring Light or Storm Calling.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Everyone always makes that argument when DK is getting nerfed, but no class gets complaints more than DK when its buffed. Is very annoying.

You have to acknowledge your own bias though. As a Sorc main, I'd say the same thing about us, and I'm sure most other class mains might too. We can't help it, but at this stage of developement I think it's evidently clear they are spending a great deal of time, effort, and passion on DK, so try to be open minded in how we can push them in the right direction instead of doom and gloom. It's just not helpful imo.

Our common enemy is Nightblade, we can all agree a certain someone really favoured that class unapologetically for 2-3 years, I'm curious how they'll hide it when their rework comes along lol.

Decimus wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Wow, these changes are really bad. If this goes through, there really is no point in using corrosive at all and we'll all just stick to using spell wall instead or a subclassed ult on the back bar, anything but corrosive. The skill only lasts ten seconds, its not as crazy as warden's Northern Storm. No dot damage, weak damage mitigation, the only plus is the no pen required.

Who else gets pure dysynergy and "nonbos" built right in to their classes identity? I doubt other classes will be treated this way moving forward.

Why do people keep acting like this isn't a new beginning for class balance as a whole, you can use the current context of the game for reference, but let's not pretend DK is the ugly step child when we don't even understand how other classes will change yet. I understand it may be frustrating to wait for the next 2 years, but honestly it's no different than the past 10, meta's shift, at least we can see a major overhaul instead of a random number change like years past.

I can only hope every other class gets the same level of polish from top to bottom DK is receiving. You may disagree with their balancing decisions, but there is a lot of good there, we can see the intent, and nothing about it is directly malicious just because you don't like your class getting weaker in 1 area or another. Let's stop playing the victim and provide meaningful feedback they can action upon or guess what, it will remain as is.

None of that matters if the "balancing" means we keep the status quo and subclassing builds are still vastly outperforming a pure DK.

Basically we just get new visual effects and some new tools, but you'll never see those used because you're trolling or trying to be a special snowflake by playing anything not involving bow procs & Restoring Light or Storm Calling.

My comment wasn't to you, you're providing valuable feedback, even if your title is a bit pestimistic, it gets the point accross.

Still, why are we comparing the reworked DK to obvious subclass combinations which ZOS is actively looking to deter and probably won't exist in the same capacity they are now. Again, it sucks we have to wait 2 years for this to complete, but that's what's happening. Think about the bigger picture. It would make more sense to compare pure class kits because that will probably be the new norm, with a few outliers, maybe 1 subclassed line here and there.

I love Streak for example, but do I think it will continue to stun instantly in a huge aoe while teleporting you and dealing damage? Probably not based on how Arcanist and DK's stun's work, they're clearly going in a direction of counterplay so why would I even start comparing them? We just don't know yet.

I honestly have no idea why zos is so afraid to let DK slap, they have no problem letting sorc shine, but dk terrifies them so much, oh the humanity that someone else besides gankers and streakers can compete.

Its very tiring and boring.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Its very tiring and boring.

It's a significant buff to pressure DK but not enough to make pressure DK competitive with animal assassins. This rework is a step in the right direction for DK but painful being 1st of 7 while the others are still so busted. If anything, screw Corrosive, let's see more buffs to Leap and Shifting Standard to be competitive with Incap and friends.

It seems that the class is being reworked to keep up with Arcanist in PvE. They care about PvP in a sense of not making things too strong, but shifting the meta for PvP is not in their goal chart it looks like.