Official Discussion Thread for "Developer Deep Dive—Season Zero’s Challenge Difficulty

Tariq9898 · January 22

I don’t think separating the player base is as bad as it seems because:

1) Most players prefer to play alone anyways. They’d rather treat ESO like a single player game.
2) Cross play - if ZOS fears the map is too desolate, then this system alone could repopulate the servers.

However, if ZOS does separate the player base via difficulty instances, then it should NOT come at the cost of reducing the amount of difficulty levels. I don’t want to see 4 difficulty settings be brought down to just 2 because that will still be too easy for me. Right now we have 4 stages, which I feel is a good amount.

4 difficulty settings - 4 instances.

Or

4 difficulty settings - 2 instances. Maybe the first two stages will share one instance and the last two, Master and Vestige, could have their own?

No one has tested this, but on paper, I do like the percentage modifiers. I personally don’t care too much about extra rewards. I care about narrative and world immersion. The 600/80 on Vestige sounds exciting.

I’m happy it’s finally happening. We have 4 difficulties and I’m excited to resume questing at Vestige level and feeling narrative stakes again!

shadoza · January 22

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I'm really really curious how exploitation will be prevented.

Because the way it looks now, Tanky toon dials up the difficulty Vestige, Arcanist toon leaves it at Adventurer and mows them down with beam. You can't percentage base the dps to determine the loot drop because low difficulty players would be blocking high difficulty via kill stealing (even unintentionally). You can't "tag for ownership", because that would create an uproar when fatecarvers are just whipping around tagging everything in a race for ownership. Both of which would open the floodgates for griefing.

This is already happening in the overland. delves. dungeons . . . ESO has done nothing to spare the average player from kill stealing from cappers, why should they care now?

shadoza · January 22

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Developer Deep Dive—Season Zero’s Challenge Difficulty"

"Learn about the new Challenge Difficulty system, coming later this year, via this developer deep dive."

We'll move this to the news section next week.

"Are you excited to take on a tougher Tamriel?"

No. This move toward appeasing one type of player while ignoring the others is not exciting. It is disappointing.
Had a conversation with my gaming friends and we believe that Solo players should be charged less ESO+ sub than group players since we have less content. Is that possible?
The other options would be:

Drop the sub and play only free content; let the group players support the game
Play another game that respects non-grouping play style; not support the game that doesn't respect our chosen play style.

I really like this game. Too bad that the FoMO was a joke and not truth.

16BitForestCat · January 22

Here's my concern:

there will be an indicator on your UI so you know what difficulty you have selected.
When entering a zone where Challenge Difficulty is not in effect, the icon will be suppressed, but it will take effect when leaving

Will this be toggleable on the UI? Screen burn-in is a thing. And some people just like a clean UI. My partner already doesn't use Companions because he says he can't rid of their group bar on the screen, and his TV can burn in.

Beyond that, I don't want to see a UI indicator because I hate combat in games in general, and ESO's combat is especially clunky. I've finally gotten to where I can occasionally one-shot a mudcrab if I get a crit, so, no, I won't be using the difficulty settings. XD "Adventurer" is the best of the names to me anyway.

SirIronclad · January 22

Since the current concept for this upcoming system is just a damage modifier on your character:

Why not make it into two sliders that allows the individual player to pinpoint the values he wants?

For example, I can see myself wanting a higher challenge in terms of the damage I take, but I'm generally against mobs becoming too spongy.

Soarora · January 23

shadoza wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Developer Deep Dive—Season Zero’s Challenge Difficulty"

"Learn about the new Challenge Difficulty system, coming later this year, via this developer deep dive."

We'll move this to the news section next week.

"Are you excited to take on a tougher Tamriel?"

No. This move toward appeasing one type of player while ignoring the others is not exciting.

Single player games also have difficulty options, I don't think this is any different. My main is a bow/bow stamsorc who I've changed the build of multiple times over the years. Finally got her to a place that I'm happy with-- not because it does maximum damage but because the build is fun. Harder quest bosses that let me actually use my ultimate without cutting off their dialogue is exciting.

Also, story mode dungeons are coming at the end of the year? Let alone that we don't know anything about the new events and the sage system.

Ruthless · January 23

I would love to see mechanics like AOE you have to dodge only you can see as a slider of difficulty.

Also make the difficulty a slider instead of the difficulties

ESO_Nightingale · January 23

Super excited for this one! I reckon i'll mostly play on master but vestige sounds pretty insane!

This is what i think the game needed. I really want to feel like theres stake to quests and now there will be!

BloodstainedFay · January 23

shadoza wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Developer Deep Dive—Season Zero’s Challenge Difficulty"

"Learn about the new Challenge Difficulty system, coming later this year, via this developer deep dive."

We'll move this to the news section next week.

"Are you excited to take on a tougher Tamriel?"

No. This move toward appeasing one type of player while ignoring the others is not exciting. It is disappointing.
Had a conversation with my gaming friends and we believe that Solo players should be charged less ESO+ sub than group players since we have less content. Is that possible?
The other options would be:
Drop the sub and play only free content; let the group players support the game

Play another game that respects non-grouping play style; not support the game that doesn't respect our chosen play style.

I really like this game. Too bad that the FoMO was a joke and not truth.

An optional difficulty setting is not taking away value from you. If anything people that like the current easy mode overworld are the ones the game has appeased the past decade.
Now, if your disagreement isn't about difficulty options but ZOS wanting to possibly put substantial rewards behind overworld difficulty in the future, then I agree with you to an extent that is unfair to more casual players, and I do not want to see ZOS do that either. But an optional difficulty by itself is not taking away value from you.

Marronsuisse · January 23

Can we change the difficulty on the fly? Just wondering if we can crank up the difficulty before fighting bosses and such.

I really would like more challenging bosses when questing, but not at the cost of making it a slog to fight through mobs.

AScarlato · January 23

Marronsuisse wrote: »

Can we change the difficulty on the fly? Just wondering if we can crank up the difficulty before fighting bosses and such.

I really would like more challenging bosses when questing, but not at the cost of making it a slog to fight through mobs.

Also curious. I would like to increase durability on mobs during questing, even trash - but I probably don't want to be hit for 600% by a world boss (if this system impacts them).

TX12001rwb17_ESO · January 23

Calling the hardest difficult Vestige level despite the Vestige being one of the most powerful beings to ever live.

Shouldn't that be the easiest difficult given this simulates how the Vestige would actually be, the hardest difficulty should be called something like Commoner difficult, as in experience what it is like to be a regular joe with no special abilities.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · January 23

How is this system any different from just removing your gear and weapons?

Why make enemies damage sponges, just make them one shot you without touching the damage you deal, they do not need 5x as much health.

AScarlato · January 23

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

How is this system any different from just removing your gear and weapons?

Why make enemies damage sponges, just make them one shot you without touching the damage you deal, they do not need 5x as much health.

Having to purposely stop level/CP progression or remove gear progression feels bad.

Difficulty sliders where you can grow into harder difficulties feels good.

Also mobs lasting 5 seconds instead of 1 second isn't that bad. lol

AedanHalcon · January 23

I have essentially been playing this way with personal debuffs for a while now. So I do feel like I can comment on it with some level of knowledge. My opinion is that I love this system it means I can actually engage with the character building part of the game while questing without constantly worrying about trivializing it. Everyone worried about randoms coming by and killing things are very much over blowing it. In my experience unless I'm doing super new content it rarely happens and its usually random mobs not bosses. The negatives of splitting the base are far more significant in my opinion. While I would be happy if it went live as is I have two suggestions.

1. There should be another difficulty between Master and Vestige as it is a significant jump (also 5 difficulties feels right Idk why)
2. To mitigate some of the worries about mixed difficulties especially in popular content where it will happen more often. Is there a possibility of preferentially and discretely shuffling players based on difficulty when an instance fills up and a new one is created? Leading to it being more likely to see people on similar difficulties while not fundamentally splitting the player base.

shadoza · January 23

BloodstainedFay wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Developer Deep Dive—Season Zero’s Challenge Difficulty"

"Learn about the new Challenge Difficulty system, coming later this year, via this developer deep dive."

We'll move this to the news section next week.

"Are you excited to take on a tougher Tamriel?"

No. This move toward appeasing one type of player while ignoring the others is not exciting. It is disappointing.
Had a conversation with my gaming friends and we believe that Solo players should be charged less ESO+ sub than group players since we have less content. Is that possible?
The other options would be:
Drop the sub and play only free content; let the group players support the game

Play another game that respects non-grouping play style; not support the game that doesn't respect our chosen play style.

I really like this game. Too bad that the FoMO was a joke and not truth.

An optional difficulty setting is not taking away value from you. If anything people that like the current easy mode overworld are the ones the game has appeased the past decade.
Now, if your disagreement isn't about difficulty options but ZOS wanting to possibly put substantial rewards behind overworld difficulty in the future, then I agree with you to an extent that is unfair to more casual players, and I do not want to see ZOS do that either. But an optional difficulty by itself is not taking away value from you.

I disagree with presenting rewards other than gold/experience because they said FoMO was going to be removed from the game. I also disagree with the concept of providing a slider to make overland and it's subsidiaries more difficult but nothing was added to make group dungeons accessible to solo-runners.

Of course there were other issues discussed that was related to Night Market and other content mentioned in the video and tested in PTS. The decisions were not collective but were a consensus. The overall feeling was demoralized. Even after a conversation about wait and see, none wanted to play this night. They were confused and worried and a little bit angry at the idea of being misled.

The game was made easier because the players walked away when it was made too difficult. I think they will do it again. Some players come for the story (RPG players) and do not care to have to fight for their life at every turn. Some players are looking for a smooth game that doesn't require hours of min/max meta research to complete the content. Only a few players are wanting a difficult challenge, I think, so when the game is made hard, people stop playing.

Other posters can attack me as a player, they can attack my play style, they can attack my views, but none of that attacking will change my mind about them or about the game. I think they just do it to make themselves feel better.

Ruthless · January 23

Maybe the first person to TAG a mob becomes that difficulty ... and the name changes color or something... brings more problems but solves one of the solutions

Ruthless · January 23

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Love it, can't wait to see how it develops over time. I think the gold and xp bonuses are minor, a good start to gague interest. It won't be exploited, I see it as more of a consolation prize which is obviously the intent for anyone dissapointed. Eventually adding a drop rate buff would bring this full circle, not enough to make it better than base difficulty, but something.

For example, if you deal -50% damage done, presumably, the fight takes 100% longer, a +25% drop chance would be 1/4 of what it's worth in time, but enough to be interesting. For example, a lot of farming comes down to waiting for bosses to respawn. The amount of time I've spent waiting for a 150k mini boss in a dungeon, just to collect a lead, I'd love to increase my odds by +25% for +100% time.

I love that this is optional and doesn't seperate players. I think overland is fine for this, it's already the "wild west", what other people do is of little concern or control to you. However, I think a fair middle ground would be to instance pledges and group dungeons into the difficulty tiers, everyone going in would be at the same level making fights more interesting. Since they're loaded into, and there is potentially 100s of them, I think worrying about seperating players here is way less of a concern, especially considering there is only 4 tiers, not 20.

A few things I think need to be considered:
The players nameplate should easily identify their difficulty tier at first glance. This way we understand why a boss may be taking longer to kill than you'd expect. Don't make it bloated with the full text, but make it easy to identify. Also gives players another layer to show off like titles or alliance rank. For example:
White (Adventurer), Yellow (Seasoned), Orange (Master), Red (Vestige).

A unique icon similar to how Alliance ranks works. Small, easy to see, unintrusive.

The toggle should be in UI, easily accessible like the new respec system on U49 PTS. A simple 5s timer, and if you add instanced pledges/group dungeons, a load screen.

Drop system based on highest 12 damage dealers is problematic. Here's some potential solutions:
Make it higher than 12, 24 would suffice to account for events.

Determining factor should be based on TRUE damage before the damage nerfs, this way you're not punished for attempting a harder difficulty when someone inevitably joins a fight you're engaged with.

Players want a more difficult, optional experience to truely test their builds, but the feeling of seeing -50% damage done might make for a bad experience. May I suggest the following:
Smoke and mirrors = Nerf the player by -50% damage done server side, but client side buff them by +100% damage done, and enemies by +100% HP. This way, 3 mil targets remain 3 mil, but to the player with -50% damage done, they see 6 mil with normal DPS values. This is a minor change, but would add polish to make the experience from transitioning to overland to dungeons and trials more relatable.

If any of my points are already addressed with the new system, feel free to correct me, but that's what I'd like to see.

A well though out comment I would love to see these ideas implemented

tomofhyrule · January 23

MashmalloMan wrote: »

The players nameplate should easily identify their difficulty tier at first glance. This way we understand why a boss may be taking longer to kill than you'd expect. Don't make it bloated with the full text, but make it easy to identify.

I wonder why this would be needed.

Surely we don't have people walking around the game timing anyone who's fighting a boss and then sending a "you'd better be playing on self-nerf mode because your dps sucks." But I really can't think of any reason that one person would need to know or care about what difficulty another player is using besides judging them for playing on a specific setting or trying to flex on others because you chose to have a harder mode. Both of which are kinda getting into the toxic side.

Elvenheart · January 23

shadoza wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Developer Deep Dive—Season Zero’s Challenge Difficulty"

"Learn about the new Challenge Difficulty system, coming later this year, via this developer deep dive."

We'll move this to the news section next week.

"Are you excited to take on a tougher Tamriel?"

No. This move toward appeasing one type of player while ignoring the others is not exciting. It is disappointing.
Had a conversation with my gaming friends and we believe that Solo players should be charged less ESO+ sub than group players since we have less content. Is that possible?
The other options would be:
Drop the sub and play only free content; let the group players support the game

Play another game that respects non-grouping play style; not support the game that doesn't respect our chosen play style.

I really like this game. Too bad that the FoMO was a joke and not truth.

I love how the announced changes as a whole show they are catering to all types of players, not any one group. They are catering to housing enthusiasts by raising the furnishing limit on many homes. They are catering to fashion enthusiasts by finally giving us the ability to hide more slots, and account wide outfit slots. They are catering to soloists by starting to give us story mode dungeons. They are catering to traders by giving us 30 day listings. And yes, they are catering to people who would like a harder overland by trying out an optional difficulty system. And the list goes on.

flyingparchment · January 23

every time I turn up at a delve boss for an Undaunted daily, there are 2-3 other players either at the boss or just behind me. any of us could kill the boss in about 3 seconds.

if i’m on Vestige difficulty, and those other players are on Adventurer difficulty, what stops them killing the boss in 3 seconds? where is the difficulty for me?

is there any answer to this other than only playing the game at 5AM when no one else is around?

ESO_player123 · January 23

Ruthless wrote: »

Maybe the first person to TAG a mob becomes that difficulty ... and the name changes color or something... brings more problems but solves one of the solutions

Everyone on the lower difficulty will have to wait while the player finishes the boss on higher difficulty. I'd rather they separate the players than see this kind of tagging.

Ezhh · January 23

I'm a player who likes higher challenge than we currently have in overland and quests. However this kind of approach just doesn't sound so good to me.

I'd imagine that all 600% more incoming damage is likely to do is enforce more tanky builds instead of enable more skilled play. Reducing damage done to enemies is more in line with what I'd like since then I could get a chance to see and respond to all their mechanics.

Overall I'd really prefer some kind of system where you have curses you can select and each one alters your experience. One for more incoming damage, one for less outgoing damage, and I am sure more can be thought of. This way everyone can easily create the experience they want. Any rewards can be scaled based on which you select and at which severity (though I'm less bothered by the reward than some might be).

A big issue for me however is that my exploration of the overland and most quests in the game is done with now. I'd actually love to do a lot of the main quest lines again but at higher difficulty levels, but I don't want to do this on an alt. I would want to be able to replay them on my main. Without some option for this, I'll probably largely ignore this feature until whenever a new overland zone shows up.

BloodstainedFay · January 23

shadoza wrote: »

BloodstainedFay wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Developer Deep Dive—Season Zero’s Challenge Difficulty"

"Learn about the new Challenge Difficulty system, coming later this year, via this developer deep dive."

We'll move this to the news section next week.

"Are you excited to take on a tougher Tamriel?"

No. This move toward appeasing one type of player while ignoring the others is not exciting. It is disappointing.
Had a conversation with my gaming friends and we believe that Solo players should be charged less ESO+ sub than group players since we have less content. Is that possible?
The other options would be:
Drop the sub and play only free content; let the group players support the game

Play another game that respects non-grouping play style; not support the game that doesn't respect our chosen play style.

I really like this game. Too bad that the FoMO was a joke and not truth.

An optional difficulty setting is not taking away value from you. If anything people that like the current easy mode overworld are the ones the game has appeased the past decade.
Now, if your disagreement isn't about difficulty options but ZOS wanting to possibly put substantial rewards behind overworld difficulty in the future, then I agree with you to an extent that is unfair to more casual players, and I do not want to see ZOS do that either. But an optional difficulty by itself is not taking away value from you.

I disagree with presenting rewards other than gold/experience because they said FoMO was going to be removed from the game. I also disagree with the concept of providing a slider to make overland and it's subsidiaries more difficult but nothing was added to make group dungeons accessible to solo-runners.

Of course there were other issues discussed that was related to Night Market and other content mentioned in the video and tested in PTS. The decisions were not collective but were a consensus. The overall feeling was demoralized. Even after a conversation about wait and see, none wanted to play this night. They were confused and worried and a little bit angry at the idea of being misled.

The game was made easier because the players walked away when it was made too difficult. I think they will do it again. Some players come for the story (RPG players) and do not care to have to fight for their life at every turn. Some players are looking for a smooth game that doesn't require hours of min/max meta research to complete the content. Only a few players are wanting a difficult challenge, I think, so when the game is made hard, people stop playing.

Other posters can attack me as a player, they can attack my play style, they can attack my views, but none of that attacking will change my mind about them or about the game. I think they just do it to make themselves feel better.

Then we're in agreement that further rewards shouldn't be added to overworld difficulty. However I still very much disagree that ZOS is slighting you by adding an optional difficulty slider for people who want it. It's even less sensible to say they've done nothing to " to make group dungeons accessible to solo-runners." when they're literally introducing solo mode DLC dungeons this year. Yes, only two to start with- to see how people like it. Just like this optional difficulty overworld is seemingly barebones so far to see how people will like it.
And yet, dungeon runners aren't clammering to say they deserve a cheaper ESO+ or that ZOS is taking away value from their game by adding a solo mode to group dungeons. So I genuinely don't understand why an optional difficulty mode (excluding the topic of rewards, which we seem to be in agreement about!) is such a slight for you?

Personally, I come for the story. I've done every single quest in the game. And I would've enjoyed the story more if an optional difficulty slider was a thing already. Much like singleplayer story based RPGs often have difficulty options as well. Some people find more enjoyment in story content if it's a bit more difficult. Just like it's a perfectly valid opinion to want casual, relaxed exploration and storytelling, it's equally valid to want some more struggle

Soarora · January 23

I could see the problem in adding limited-time rewards unique to higher difficulty levels. Other difficult content can be stretch goals but limited-time rewards means "git gud" or lose the reward. FOMO except possibly unobtainable. For me, the difficulty would be its own reward but increased gold gains and materials from enemies is always a very enticing bonus as I hoard resources. For people who need bigger rewards (such as cosmetics) it could be tied to achievements?

laniakea_0 · January 23

@ZOS_Kevin are you also considering improved loot drops for this? for example: higher quality gear dropping more often.
I still think you guys should overhaul item sourcing as a whole at some point but this would be a welcome stop gap measure. It would be awesome if I could get things like the Aetheric Cypher more quickly this way. My Character is well over CP2000 and I still haven't found one. I'm probably not the only one who feels like he's not going to find this before xp boosters would become essentially worthless (because we hit the CP cap already).

Fata1moose · January 23

I'd like to see damage taken and damage dealt split up into seperate options and not lumped up together. That way I could do 600% damage received but only 20-50% damage dealing reduced. I like enemies feeling more lethal but I don't want things to be too spongey. For someone else, they might have the exact opposite preference to me where they want enemies to last longer but they don't want to die easily. This kind of flexibility is in a lot of modern games and is one of the better innovations over the years.

Tariq9898 · January 23

@ZOS_Kevin I also want to reiterate that having 4 levels is a good amount.

If it was just Normal and Vet, then like any instanced content, the gap between would be too vast and allow very little or no room for players to progress through higher difficulties over time. There would be no middle ground. In addition, there’s also the possibility that Vet might still be too easy for a few hardcore players.

On the other hand, having four options will satisfy far more players than just two due to increased flexibility in playstyle.

Please keep multiple difficulty levels and not just two. As you mentioned, this is a system that can and should be expanded upon. Not reduced.

Alternatively, you could have two separate sliders. One for damage output and the other for damage taken. The damage taken could max out at 600% or more. I just don’t want it to be either Normal or Vet and nothing else as that would be too rigid.

VixxVexx · January 23

Unless there are unique rewards, I don't see the point in some extra xp and gold. We're still just getting a set piece we already have.

Maybe you should start rewarding unique set pieces like a weapon with a health enchant or some armor set piece with a jewelery enchant. Some of these are already in game. Imagine killing a mini-boss at the end of a long questline and you get a gold chest piece that has a weapon damage enchant on it, instead of a normal armor glyph.

Attorneyatlawl · January 23

For the top tier, it's 6x incoming damage and 5x on lower outgoing but only 2x the xp. For people who are not champ 3600, it's lower efficiency. Still, I wanted harder mobs and questing for difficulty's sake, so while it isn't balanced, I'll be happy.

Ring of the pale order was something I wanted in my build for this, but it would be 1/5th as effective if it's a player debuff outright. I'll figure a build easily enough

.

I'd love to see higher xp since I'm not high champ rank, and as others have suggested maybe other things like gold upgrade mats at a very low chance off of mobs. This would make it good for farming, then, too.

Definitely think it's best to have several modes rather than just a split 2. I doubt outside of the normal launch rush for new areas that have high populations that normal mode people killing your mobs rapidly will be much of a problem.