I tested the new DK changes and already have my build ready to go for pvp. It is stronger yes, but it isn't stronger than the subclass setups I've made, its more on par with those setups, and honestly i have my doubts itll be stronger than the sweatiest subclass setups. At best itll be a more even playing field. I tested them by going to ic and cyrodiil in the pts and finding what few fights I could, and fighting the ic bosses to get an idea of damage output and survivability.

Damage is higher but the sustain with normal setups is a bit worse unless you're using deep breath since it has some sustain recovery built into the skill now, and this is with wretched vitality. Roksa fixes this but I dont like using two sustain sets so I went to bloodspawn, and found a good middle ground there. Even so with it in a good spot, very fun and definitely doing much better in the damage department again its not gonna be the best setup in the game.

For one we dont have a cleanse, wardens still have the best class mastery, DK's skills are magicka heavy so you cant lean full into damage without worrying about sustain.. and our best skill while better for dps got a noticeable nerf in the damage reduction side. Its no longer an I win button.

The changes brought DK up to par with other pure classes, and with most subclass setups, they did not make it best in slot however, except for in its intended role as tank and spank brawler. If you're trying to tank and spank brawl on a pure nightblade then yea in most cases I suspect itll be difficult, but you should match your desired playstyle to the class you're playing not make each class one size fits all. Even with their attempt to make each class more viable for tanking, dps and healing, it will never and should never attempt to make everyone good at everything no matter what you picked. Thats why we have subclassing as a thing in the first place.

TLDR the concern is unfounded, DK was the most viable as pure classing but is now a true alternative to subclassed builds but its still a DK and won't do nightblade playstyles better than a nightblade, especially any subclassing other skill lines, which is the point.

No cleanse and lesser sustain than everyone using animal companion still holds it back and counters the power increase that only puts it on par with the damage output of other classes.

Nyseto wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I tested the new DK changes and already have my build ready to go for pvp. It is stronger yes, but it isn't stronger than the subclass setups I've made, its more on par with those setups, and honestly i have my doubts itll be stronger than the sweatiest subclass setups. At best itll be a more even playing field. I tested them by going to ic and cyrodiil in the pts and finding what few fights I could, and fighting the ic bosses to get an idea of damage output and survivability.

Damage is higher but the sustain with normal setups is a bit worse unless you're using deep breath since it has some sustain recovery built into the skill now, and this is with wretched vitality. Roksa fixes this but I dont like using two sustain sets so I went to bloodspawn, and found a good middle ground there. Even so with it in a good spot, very fun and definitely doing much better in the damage department again its not gonna be the best setup in the game.

For one we dont have a cleanse, wardens still have the best class mastery, DK's skills are magicka heavy so you cant lean full into damage without worrying about sustain.. and our best skill while better for dps got a noticeable nerf in the damage reduction side. Its no longer an I win button.

The changes brought DK up to par with other pure classes, and with most subclass setups, they did not make it best in slot however, except for in its intended role as tank and spank brawler. If you're trying to tank and spank brawl on a pure nightblade then yea in most cases I suspect itll be difficult, but you should match your desired playstyle to the class you're playing not make each class one size fits all. Even with their attempt to make each class more viable for tanking, dps and healing, it will never and should never attempt to make everyone good at everything no matter what you picked. Thats why we have subclassing as a thing in the first place.

TLDR the concern is unfounded, DK was the most viable as pure classing but is now a true alternative to subclassed builds but its still a DK and won't do nightblade playstyles better than a nightblade, especially any subclassing other skill lines, which is the point.

No cleanse and lesser sustain than everyone using animal companion still holds it back and counters the power increase that only puts it on par with the damage output of other classes.

The concern is not that the dk will do Nightblade styles better than Nightblade, but that it's one more class that will do more dps in pve in addition to subclassing. The playstyle isn't the issue, the dps is.

...Pardon my ignorance but why does another class doing decent dps matter so long as you can do good dps?

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Nyseto wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I tested the new DK changes and already have my build ready to go for pvp. It is stronger yes, but it isn't stronger than the subclass setups I've made, its more on par with those setups, and honestly i have my doubts itll be stronger than the sweatiest subclass setups. At best itll be a more even playing field. I tested them by going to ic and cyrodiil in the pts and finding what few fights I could, and fighting the ic bosses to get an idea of damage output and survivability.

Damage is higher but the sustain with normal setups is a bit worse unless you're using deep breath since it has some sustain recovery built into the skill now, and this is with wretched vitality. Roksa fixes this but I dont like using two sustain sets so I went to bloodspawn, and found a good middle ground there. Even so with it in a good spot, very fun and definitely doing much better in the damage department again its not gonna be the best setup in the game.

For one we dont have a cleanse, wardens still have the best class mastery, DK's skills are magicka heavy so you cant lean full into damage without worrying about sustain.. and our best skill while better for dps got a noticeable nerf in the damage reduction side. Its no longer an I win button.

The changes brought DK up to par with other pure classes, and with most subclass setups, they did not make it best in slot however, except for in its intended role as tank and spank brawler. If you're trying to tank and spank brawl on a pure nightblade then yea in most cases I suspect itll be difficult, but you should match your desired playstyle to the class you're playing not make each class one size fits all. Even with their attempt to make each class more viable for tanking, dps and healing, it will never and should never attempt to make everyone good at everything no matter what you picked. Thats why we have subclassing as a thing in the first place.

TLDR the concern is unfounded, DK was the most viable as pure classing but is now a true alternative to subclassed builds but its still a DK and won't do nightblade playstyles better than a nightblade, especially any subclassing other skill lines, which is the point.

No cleanse and lesser sustain than everyone using animal companion still holds it back and counters the power increase that only puts it on par with the damage output of other classes.

The concern is not that the dk will do Nightblade styles better than Nightblade, but that it's one more class that will do more dps in pve in addition to subclassing. The playstyle isn't the issue, the dps is.

...Pardon my ignorance but why does another class doing decent dps matter so long as you can do good dps?

Two reasons. One, it feels like a punishment playing a class with less dps, creating less build diversity and two, certain guilds and groups prefer top tier dps.

DK is looking like it will be slightly behind a fully optimal Subclass build, parsing perfectly, and that’s less than 10k difference.

There will be minimal loss playing a pure DK next update assuming these changes go live, so I would say mission success.

Now let’s see if Warden gets the same treatment.

What exactly are you unable to do with your pure class?

Moonsorrow wrote: »

How is there no devs/group/budget to even do every class at once?

I’d suggest looking at Microsoft’s layoffs from the middle of last year, which impacted ZOS hard. The cancellation of the NA event and reduction in size and pace of content seem to be indicative of bigger budget cuts. Big tech is reducing investment or in some cases divesting entirely (see Amazon) when it comes to MMOs or other dev-heavy game production.

This may shed some light on why corporate owners are making such decisions: https://www.matthewball.co/all/stateofvideogaming2025

As for the money, understand that Microsoft’s CFO set an expectation in 2023 of a 30% margin from its gaming division. Making a lot of money doesn’t mean making enough in a corporate climate where the corporation is obligated pursue the best ROIs. ZOS/ESO needs to meet those expectations in terms of margins. It doesn’t have the luxury of putting all its own profit back into itself. It is now an opportunity cost constantly being weighed against potentially more profitable endeavors.

Dk is still considerably weaker than the meta subclass builds going around and nb is half the problem nightblades so strong rn you don’t need to subclass 😂

The problem would be solved by simply giving subclass real weaknesses..
maybe 20 skill point for one passivei mean passive/skill power half power when you are subclassing

There can't be a fix for pure classing whilst two things are true:

1. Herald of the Tome has everything a DPS could ever need except crit.
2. Assassination has crit, crit, and some more crit.


As long as you can just plug those two lines together and get 100% of all the value a DPS could ever want, you can't fix pure classes.

You have to systematically dismantle those two skill lines, otherwise you can always plug them together and get everything.

Moonsorrow wrote: »

How is there no devs/group/budget to even do every class at once? Like in every other mmo game if there is changes, they come to all at once..

Is the game so badly in maintenance mode that there is like 1 person anymore doing all the work so simple things as class rework takes years?

I mean in other games it's 1 big update and gets all at once. Seriously concerning having to wait 2 years. It's too slow at any reasonable metric in mmo sphere. If wants to get game back on right track, it's too slow, imagine next thing they want to change, how long will that take, 5 years? MMO are live service games, and if takes premium price for playing it (like ESO+ is actual sub cost tier) then a class rework like this should be 3 months for all classes, as in 1 big update. Showing too slow reaction to classes turned bad (by bad combat/balance decisions in the first place for years) is not reassuring if knows how many issues there are to fix, if this one takes years. Imagine then them trying to balance this. Oh and how about actual content amount/quality then? I am heavily concerned.

Edit: The more i think about this, the more to me it feels like they are doing 1 class per update only, because there is not much actual content, so giving some re-skinned class (changed some value and few animations) acts kind of as giving "content" instead of actual content? So people get what they already had, but just with buffed/nerfed values.. so like doing same old content with same "new" class. Since there are no more yearly Chapters and so on. If someone can explain this in any other way that would make sense, i'll appreciate it.

And to remind everyone on what the game playing costs in ESO, that is more costly than most other mmo games i have ever played:

Current system $50 for content pass, and $140/year for ESO+. Total $190.

New season model.
First year $30/season, that's $120/year. ESO+ $140/year = $260 for first year.
Subsequent years $260 minus one season credit of $30 = $230

And class rework takes 2.. years? Better come after 2 years. Why pay full premium prices of a product that is clearly not ready? This feels like Beta or Early Access and game been out over 10 years.

Did they say it has to do with budget?

I was always under the impression that they had excessive oversight which slowed things down.

Smaller studios with less money can make many more changes. I think the animation changes are what takes the longest, but balancing? Yes they could absolutely do it all quickly. Problem is whenever they’ve done sweeping changes, how’s the quality been of the changes?

The class refresh order is wrong in my opinion. Seriously underpowered classes or unstable skill line like assasination are left to the end. Necromancer, the class that people have asked for refresh for years, even before subclassing, left for the end. Another slam to the face of those who plays that class and got so many nerfs and even discrimination over the years. I still feel the effects of the removal of stalking blastbone and the corpse limitation system that nerfed sets like corpseburster because corpses keep on disappearing, and nothing is being addressed. Sometimes it feels like devs hate that class and therefore why did they release it in the first place.