DK's Inhale's sustain change needs to be reverted

hoangdz · January 21

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

xylena · January 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

We’re going to have a DK meta these next few months, then a Warden and DK meta for the following 3 months; then a Sorcerer + Warden + DK meta… and this will continue by adding another class until we have all of our reworks done.

Still better than another 2 years of animal assassins.

There is absolutely nothing about the current build meta worth preserving.

Thumbless_Bot · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Not true. There are many what if scenarios outlined above. Including mine. Your comments are compared against Live. Live is not applicable until all refreshes are complete so we can get a sense of balance across classes... this point is also called out several times above.

So you’re saying we’ll just have to endure through possibly 2 years of imbalance until we can make a final decision on class balance? IDK man that sounds pretty ineffective to me.

I didnt create this s storm, zos did by not releasing all refreshed classes at once.

But yes, i and others have already stated basically yes above.

Thumbless_Bot · January 21

Vaqual wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Not true. There are many what if scenarios outlined above. Including mine. Your comments are compared against Live. Live is not applicable until all refreshes are complete so we can get a sense of balance across classes... this point is also called out several times above.

If you imply that this would somehow fit a new standard, you basically imply that any existing sustain from gear and consumables is going to be intentionally devalued. If you can get 3x 6k resource ticks from mono resource-builds as they were not uncommon on last years 40k mag Ward-Sorc, what good will a 129 point set bonus do?

I don't need "a sense of balance" to see that this is extreme. You are simply arguing past the facts, like many "comments above".

I do.

Play DK then. I did for seven years. Now I am a Warden main who identifies as a streaking Sorc. Cannot wait for those classes and the last thing I want is some shortsighted nerf hammer to kill this refresh before it even starts.

Something is going to be meta for the next while, pikely not two years. This or that. Might as well be DK.

xylena · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

So you’re saying we’ll just have to endure through possibly 2 years of imbalance

Yeah. Worst case scenario, nothing has changed. Can't break what's already broken... wait, you don't seriously think the Live meta is balanced as is, do you?

Decimus · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

MXVIIDREAM · January 21

Vaqual wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Again this is assuming absolute empty above 30% resources factor in the cost of the skill and the fact it’s missing resources not max as you calculate ld it and that number becomes between5-10% all the other resource restore skills in the game out perform it so what exactly is your point
That nothing should feel strong right now because the other classes are being refreshed over time so how dare this have a skill that’s strong and balanced during normal combat only out performing other class sustain skills at absolute low resources the kind where without clever play you’ll die anyway sure risk to reward on this skill is good get over it
It’s already comparable to dark deal and siphoning strikes BEFORE their rework it’s fine as it is and remember there’s pve side to this game aswell and this skill improves both tanks and supports aswell as dps great skill frankly doesn’t need to be touched unless in 2 years it revives more negative feed back than 3 people (one troll)vs the rest of the community

No you are simply not understanding. This isn't assuming and edge case, this is a scenario that a player can deliberately play into. I will spell it out in an abundantly simple way:

>You build high resource, you have to build no recovery
>You have sufficient resource == you are fine
>You approach the lower end of your resources and cast one Inhale/Core of flame == you are fine

It is simply impossible to run out, when you get 18k mag back for a 3-4k-ish cast. It is purely trivializing sustain for anyone willing to run a resource focused build without counterplay or significant drawback. Do you understand? If I cast Inhale and then gas out by going ham on mag for the next 4 casts I will still benefit from a full range recovery tick to enable another cast. It is by far the highest possible, unconditionally available recovery tool by an astronomically large margin, for anyone willing to invest a single thought into that matter. This enables players to maintain dramatic amounts of shields or pressure without any effort and by far exceeds the capacities of DD and SS for such builds - you saying otherwise doesn't make it true.
You can't even fully reach such a level by back to back casting SS and that would be literally melting your health bar.

And for the millionth time, I am not asking to nerf it to trash tier, I am trying to explain why it needs an upper limit.

Just accept reality. It doesn't matter if you get high ticks all the time, when you can make a damage stat heavy build with functionally infinite, near-passive, no-drawback resource sustain. Because max resources scale DPS and heals, while recovery doesn't.

What is my point? Either your calculations use the wrong numbers or we need to talk about math. And btw, this will be fully a abusable on any subclass. So DKs, without % resources, will not even be the strongest users of this ability.

Oh no everyone will have access to it, because keeping every player in a fight longer regardless of skill level is a bad thing isn’t it
Last time I’m replying to these clowns that can’t math or read it seems😂
You’re right I think you need to sit down and talk about math and apply what applies to this skill
It has
Please actually apply the rules to the skill in your calculation

You pay the full cost before any return
Diminishing returns (this means
as you gain mag you loose value what you get back)
The first tick restores resources
That reduces what’s “MISSING NOT MAX”
The second tick is calculated off a lower missing value NOT MAX stats
Mag and Stam are calculated independently not additive
Vulnerable to CC burst

Sure if you can play at 20% resources which using the example given above with the new stats you could swap to you’d be running around with 9k mag and 4k stam because most people are going to be speccing into mag to run dk so let’s hope you don’t want to heal break free or roll dodge obviously you can’t actually cc break above 30% sure the skills doing something and sure everyone can run it subclassing but for the play time you’re not running completely empty this skills cast cost almost negates the magicka return
At no point do you see the 20k+ resorce return unless you’re under 20 resources and have 40k resources but again you never applied the rules to this skill aswell as the fact you think people are going to constantly run around with 10% of their remaining resources
Last time I’ll reply on this dead thread attempting to troll and nerf skills into the ground because he can’t beat dks on pts sure it’s hard to run out of resources entirely but equally apart from the time you’re nearly out of resources this skills poor damage on explosion after 4 seconds makes it lackluster for the other 80% its damage is weak and it’s doing very little — which is intended, it’s a tool to keep you in the fight, not break the game.
If it needs adjusting that can be done later when everything else has been changed and we can compare it to other skills

hoangdz · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

hoangdz · January 21

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Again this is assuming absolute empty above 30% resources factor in the cost of the skill and the fact it’s missing resources not max as you calculate ld it and that number becomes between5-10% all the other resource restore skills in the game out perform it so what exactly is your point
That nothing should feel strong right now because the other classes are being refreshed over time so how dare this have a skill that’s strong and balanced during normal combat only out performing other class sustain skills at absolute low resources the kind where without clever play you’ll die anyway sure risk to reward on this skill is good get over it
It’s already comparable to dark deal and siphoning strikes BEFORE their rework it’s fine as it is and remember there’s pve side to this game aswell and this skill improves both tanks and supports aswell as dps great skill frankly doesn’t need to be touched unless in 2 years it revives more negative feed back than 3 people (one troll)vs the rest of the community

No you are simply not understanding. This isn't assuming and edge case, this is a scenario that a player can deliberately play into. I will spell it out in an abundantly simple way:

>You build high resource, you have to build no recovery
>You have sufficient resource == you are fine
>You approach the lower end of your resources and cast one Inhale/Core of flame == you are fine

It is simply impossible to run out, when you get 18k mag back for a 3-4k-ish cast. It is purely trivializing sustain for anyone willing to run a resource focused build without counterplay or significant drawback. Do you understand? If I cast Inhale and then gas out by going ham on mag for the next 4 casts I will still benefit from a full range recovery tick to enable another cast. It is by far the highest possible, unconditionally available recovery tool by an astronomically large margin, for anyone willing to invest a single thought into that matter. This enables players to maintain dramatic amounts of shields or pressure without any effort and by far exceeds the capacities of DD and SS for such builds - you saying otherwise doesn't make it true.
You can't even fully reach such a level by back to back casting SS and that would be literally melting your health bar.

And for the millionth time, I am not asking to nerf it to trash tier, I am trying to explain why it needs an upper limit.

Just accept reality. It doesn't matter if you get high ticks all the time, when you can make a damage stat heavy build with functionally infinite, near-passive, no-drawback resource sustain. Because max resources scale DPS and heals, while recovery doesn't.

What is my point? Either your calculations use the wrong numbers or we need to talk about math. And btw, this will be fully a abusable on any subclass. So DKs, without % resources, will not even be the strongest users of this ability.

Last time I’m replying to these clowns that can’t math or read it seems😂
You’re right I think you need to sit down and talk about math and apply what applies to this skill
It has
Please actually apply the rules to the skill in your calculation

You pay the full cost before any return
Diminishing returns (this means
as you gain mag you loose value what you get back)
The first tick restores resources
That reduces what’s “MISSING NOT MAX”
The second tick is calculated off a lower missing value NOT MAX stats
Mag and Stam are calculated independently not additive
Vulnerable to CC burst

Sure if you can play at 20% resources which using the example given above with the new stats you could swap to you’d be running around with 9k mag and 4k stam because most people are going to be speccing into mag to run dk so let’s hope you don’t want to heal break free or roll dodge obviously you can’t actually cc break above 30% sure the skills doing something and sure everyone can run it subclassing but for the play time you’re not running completely empty this skills cast cost almost negates the magicka return
At no point do you see the 20k+ resorce return unless you’re under 20 resources and have 40k resources but again you never applied the rules to this skill aswell as the fact you think people are going to constantly run around with 10% of their remaining resources
Last time I’ll reply on this dead thread attempting to troll and nerf skills into the ground because he can’t beat dks on pts sure it’s hard to run out of resources entirely but equally apart from the time you’re nearly out of resources this skills poor damage on explosion after 4 seconds makes it lackluster for the other 80% of the time it’s on your bar doing very little which is absolutely fine as it’s designed to keep you in the fight

My guy, I have already calculated all of what you said, and gave out the actual resource values in a previous comment.

You can go away. I don't think I've ever seen someone purposely misread what I write or what I try to convey to this extent. You have contributed nothing to this discussion.

xylena · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

I'd also like to know this, especially with the only passive enabler for Surge being Hurricane.

hoangdz · January 21

xylena wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

I'd also like to know this, especially with the only passive enabler for Surge being Hurricane.

5% crit damage when slotted, stam regen, small cleanse and small heal. It's weird to run redundant Major buffs but Netch provides other valuable buffs that you can kinda ignore this. Pelican does the same thing on his openworld Jabden. He runs Netch and Surge on the same build.

Vaqual · January 21

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Again this is assuming absolute empty above 30% resources factor in the cost of the skill and the fact it’s missing resources not max as you calculate ld it and that number becomes between5-10% all the other resource restore skills in the game out perform it so what exactly is your point
That nothing should feel strong right now because the other classes are being refreshed over time so how dare this have a skill that’s strong and balanced during normal combat only out performing other class sustain skills at absolute low resources the kind where without clever play you’ll die anyway sure risk to reward on this skill is good get over it
It’s already comparable to dark deal and siphoning strikes BEFORE their rework it’s fine as it is and remember there’s pve side to this game aswell and this skill improves both tanks and supports aswell as dps great skill frankly doesn’t need to be touched unless in 2 years it revives more negative feed back than 3 people (one troll)vs the rest of the community

No you are simply not understanding. This isn't assuming and edge case, this is a scenario that a player can deliberately play into. I will spell it out in an abundantly simple way:

>You build high resource, you have to build no recovery
>You have sufficient resource == you are fine
>You approach the lower end of your resources and cast one Inhale/Core of flame == you are fine

It is simply impossible to run out, when you get 18k mag back for a 3-4k-ish cast. It is purely trivializing sustain for anyone willing to run a resource focused build without counterplay or significant drawback. Do you understand? If I cast Inhale and then gas out by going ham on mag for the next 4 casts I will still benefit from a full range recovery tick to enable another cast. It is by far the highest possible, unconditionally available recovery tool by an astronomically large margin, for anyone willing to invest a single thought into that matter. This enables players to maintain dramatic amounts of shields or pressure without any effort and by far exceeds the capacities of DD and SS for such builds - you saying otherwise doesn't make it true.
You can't even fully reach such a level by back to back casting SS and that would be literally melting your health bar.

And for the millionth time, I am not asking to nerf it to trash tier, I am trying to explain why it needs an upper limit.

Just accept reality. It doesn't matter if you get high ticks all the time, when you can make a damage stat heavy build with functionally infinite, near-passive, no-drawback resource sustain. Because max resources scale DPS and heals, while recovery doesn't.

What is my point? Either your calculations use the wrong numbers or we need to talk about math. And btw, this will be fully a abusable on any subclass. So DKs, without % resources, will not even be the strongest users of this ability.

Last time I’m replying to these clowns that can’t math or read it seems😂
You’re right I think you need to sit down and talk about math and apply what applies to this skill
It has
Please actually apply the rules to the skill in your calculation

...

At no point do you see the 20k+ resorce return unless you’re under 20 resources and have 40k resources but again you never applied the rules to this skill aswell as the fact you think people are going to constantly run around with 10% of their remaining resources

Yes, this is the exact case I am talking about. How are you not getting it. I more than clearly stated that this does especially apply to a specific dedicated type of build, which derives disproportionate power from the uncapped nature of the ability. I am also not saying you are supposed to camp low resources, but that the returns you get while being low are so massive, that it elevates you out of the danger zone with ease.
You telling me, that I am a clown and unable to read, is quite shocking given how this thread has been going thus far.

hoangdz · January 21

Vaqual wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Again this is assuming absolute empty above 30% resources factor in the cost of the skill and the fact it’s missing resources not max as you calculate ld it and that number becomes between5-10% all the other resource restore skills in the game out perform it so what exactly is your point
That nothing should feel strong right now because the other classes are being refreshed over time so how dare this have a skill that’s strong and balanced during normal combat only out performing other class sustain skills at absolute low resources the kind where without clever play you’ll die anyway sure risk to reward on this skill is good get over it
It’s already comparable to dark deal and siphoning strikes BEFORE their rework it’s fine as it is and remember there’s pve side to this game aswell and this skill improves both tanks and supports aswell as dps great skill frankly doesn’t need to be touched unless in 2 years it revives more negative feed back than 3 people (one troll)vs the rest of the community

No you are simply not understanding. This isn't assuming and edge case, this is a scenario that a player can deliberately play into. I will spell it out in an abundantly simple way:

>You build high resource, you have to build no recovery
>You have sufficient resource == you are fine
>You approach the lower end of your resources and cast one Inhale/Core of flame == you are fine

It is simply impossible to run out, when you get 18k mag back for a 3-4k-ish cast. It is purely trivializing sustain for anyone willing to run a resource focused build without counterplay or significant drawback. Do you understand? If I cast Inhale and then gas out by going ham on mag for the next 4 casts I will still benefit from a full range recovery tick to enable another cast. It is by far the highest possible, unconditionally available recovery tool by an astronomically large margin, for anyone willing to invest a single thought into that matter. This enables players to maintain dramatic amounts of shields or pressure without any effort and by far exceeds the capacities of DD and SS for such builds - you saying otherwise doesn't make it true.
You can't even fully reach such a level by back to back casting SS and that would be literally melting your health bar.

And for the millionth time, I am not asking to nerf it to trash tier, I am trying to explain why it needs an upper limit.

Just accept reality. It doesn't matter if you get high ticks all the time, when you can make a damage stat heavy build with functionally infinite, near-passive, no-drawback resource sustain. Because max resources scale DPS and heals, while recovery doesn't.

What is my point? Either your calculations use the wrong numbers or we need to talk about math. And btw, this will be fully a abusable on any subclass. So DKs, without % resources, will not even be the strongest users of this ability.

Last time I’m replying to these clowns that can’t math or read it seems😂
You’re right I think you need to sit down and talk about math and apply what applies to this skill
It has
Please actually apply the rules to the skill in your calculation

...

At no point do you see the 20k+ resorce return unless you’re under 20 resources and have 40k resources but again you never applied the rules to this skill aswell as the fact you think people are going to constantly run around with 10% of their remaining resources

Yes, this is the exact case I am talking about. How are you not getting it. I more than clearly stated that this does especially apply to a specific dedicated type of build, which derives disproportionate power from the uncapped nature of the ability. I am also not saying you are supposed to camp low resources, but that the returns you get while being low are so massive, that it elevates you out of the danger zone with ease.
You telling me, that I am a clown and unable to read, is quite shocking given how this thread has been going thus far.

Don't even bother with him. I wrote a full comment, clearly stating a hypothetical scenario to compare the difference between sustaining with Netch vs sustaining with Inhale, yet all he got from that was "You'd lose Animal Companion if you slot Inhale".

It's a losing game trying to have an honest discussion when people can't read or infer from what's being stated.

BardokRedSnow · January 21

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

“Anyone who disagrees with me is emotional and wrong”

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

“Anyone who disagrees with me is emotional and wrong”

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

That is simply not true

BardokRedSnow · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion
[edited to remove quote]

Decimus · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

xylena · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

5% crit damage when slotted, stam regen, small cleanse and small heal. It's weird to run redundant Major buffs but Netch provides other valuable buffs that you can kinda ignore this. Pelican does the same thing on his openworld Jabden. He runs Netch and Surge on the same build.

No I get why you run Netch. Why do you still need Surge?

BardokRedSnow · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

“Anyone who disagrees with me is emotional and wrong”

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

That is simply not true

Try actually fighting something with both builds, it’s definitely true, especially if you’re not running orzogas

BardokRedSnow · January 21

There’s a pretty big difference in fighting a dummy or an npc vs a group of people stun locking you and spamming abilities at you. With animal companion passive your sustain continues regardless of your action, because it’s both from the skill and passives. Inhale is just from the activation of the skill which is a big weakness on top of the diminishing returns which is why if you try and rely solely on that skill for your sustain, you’re gonna die, a lot.

Decimus · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

“Anyone who disagrees with me is emotional and wrong”

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

That is simply not true

Try actually fighting something with both builds, it’s definitely true, especially if you’re not running orzogas

Both of them can have "infinite" sustain... It's just that one of them chills at 100% resources while the other hovers between 0-50% most of the fight - that's the part they're not getting.

Or that one has to cast Netch+Rune every 20 seconds, the other has to keep casting HoF every 4 seconds...

BardokRedSnow · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

“Anyone who disagrees with me is emotional and wrong”

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

That is simply not true

Try actually fighting something with both builds, it’s definitely true, especially if you’re not running orzogas

Both of them can have "infinite" sustain... It's just that one of them chills at 100% resources while the other hovers between 0-50% most of the fight - that's the part they're not getting.

Or that one has to cast Netch+Rune every 20 seconds, the other has to keep casting HoF every 4 seconds...

Which is annoying, clunky and less optimal. This is why these guys need to stop being spreadsheet warriors and actually test the skills like the pts is designed for

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.
[edited to remove quote]

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

“Anyone who disagrees with me is emotional and wrong”

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

That is simply not true

Try actually fighting something with both builds, it’s definitely true, especially if you’re not running orzogas

Both of them can have "infinite" sustain... It's just that one of them chills at 100% resources while the other hovers between 0-50% most of the fight - that's the part they're not getting.

Or that one has to cast Netch+Rune every 20 seconds, the other has to keep casting HoF every 4 seconds...

Which is annoying, clunky and less optimal. This is why these guys need to stop being spreadsheet warriors and actually test the skills like the pts is designed for

Again, I have tested the skills on PTS. Nobody on PTS whom I've tested with have said Inhale is balanced. If they disagreed with me, it's because they want to wait until ZOS buffs the remaining classes, not because they think Inhale is balanced.

MincMincMinc · January 21

xylena wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

We’re going to have a DK meta these next few months, then a Warden and DK meta for the following 3 months; then a Sorcerer + Warden + DK meta… and this will continue by adding another class until we have all of our reworks done.

Still better than another 2 years of animal assassins.

There is absolutely nothing about the current build meta worth preserving.

what you dont like the guaranteed surprise attack crit into a 0 telegraph offbalance stun into an undodgeable merciless that is the highest tooltipping ult skill in the game. (keep in mind on PTS merciless is now officially higher scaling than any ult in the game....... a 5s cooldown skill that gives a skill's worth of buffs vs 30s-1m cooldown ultimates)

Or how about how sub assault 2nd hit tooltips the same as dawnbreaker while giving significant passives and doing major/minor making the target take 13.5% worth of damage received.

hoangdz · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

No, I actually run Netch there for what it is: free sustain, free cleanse, and free passive heal. Why would you run Streak when Warden Charm exists?

HoF is not just a sustain skill though. It's a delayed burst with a sustain function that is currently performing better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. Just the fact that it can be used as part of your offensive rotation already makes it better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. This is a non-argument.

Your suggestions are going to make DK the single best class next update, and quite frankly that is just going to shift the meta from what we have on live to all DKs. That isn't making the game more fun, just repackaging what's currently broken into another form.

hoangdz · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

“Anyone who disagrees with me is emotional and wrong”

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

That is simply not true

Try actually fighting something with both builds, it’s definitely true, especially if you’re not running orzogas

Both of them can have "infinite" sustain... It's just that one of them chills at 100% resources while the other hovers between 0-50% most of the fight - that's the part they're not getting.

Or that one has to cast Netch+Rune every 20 seconds, the other has to keep casting HoF every 4 seconds...

No, one build needs to invest into recovery via Food, CPs, etc. While the other can forgo them completely and use 1 skill. Your comparison are not the same. I have already presented a detailed explanation above. You are free to argue that, but you cannot make this claim while ignoring simple stat allocation.

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

“Anyone who disagrees with me is emotional and wrong”

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

That is simply not true

Try actually fighting something with both builds, it’s definitely true, especially if you’re not running orzogas

Both of them can have "infinite" sustain... It's just that one of them chills at 100% resources while the other hovers between 0-50% most of the fight - that's the part they're not getting.

Or that one has to cast Netch+Rune every 20 seconds, the other has to keep casting HoF every 4 seconds...

Which is annoying, clunky and less optimal. This is why these guys need to stop being spreadsheet warriors and actually test the skills like the pts is designed for

I have been on PTS for the past week testing Inhale in duels. Literally 3 of my test videos in previous comments were taken on PTS. What are you even talking about lol?

hoangdz · January 21

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

5% crit damage when slotted, stam regen, small cleanse and small heal. It's weird to run redundant Major buffs but Netch provides other valuable buffs that you can kinda ignore this. Pelican does the same thing on his openworld Jabden. He runs Netch and Surge on the same build.

No I get why you run Netch. Why do you still need Surge?

Because Surge's proc chance increases when you either:

1) Stack crit chance
2) Stack multiple sources of damage

Coincidentally, this build uses Assassination, which means you're going to be sitting at 47-50% crit chance. Apart from the fact that you're going to crit heal more, you are going to also deal more critical damage, which in turn increases Crit Surge proc chance.

Crit Surge is one of the best offensive heals in the game and when you have enough crit chance and multiple sources of damage, it's literally a no brainer to slot it.

Screenshot taken from a duel

Decimus · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

No, I actually run Netch there for what it is: free sustain, free cleanse, and free passive heal. Why would you run Streak when Warden Charm exists?

HoF is not just a sustain skill though. It's a delayed burst with a sustain function that is currently performing better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. Just the fact that it can be used as part of your offensive rotation already makes it better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. This is a non-argument.

Your suggestions are going to make DK the single best class next update, and quite frankly that is just going to shift the meta from what we have on live to all DKs. That isn't making the game more fun, just repackaging what's currently broken into another form.

Yes, that is precisely what they should aim for with these reworks: make whatever they rework strong and worth playing. It sounds to me like you just enjoy subclassing and want to keep the status quo that majority of the player base hates.

Also no Streak (a skill most players have called "overpowered" at one point or another btw) in open world... to double dip into Major buffs. [snip]

You know what, if you're not using Streak (the strongest skill in the game in one of the strongest skill lines in the game) then maybe HoF is overpowered for your build and thus needs to be nerfed... Damn, didn't think of that. Have you considered maybe subclassing into Ardent Flame then?

Meanwhile anyone actually using the kiting toolkit of Sorcerer and playing around the class strengths can either subclass into Animal Companions/Assassination or use Dark Deal/Conversion like it's meant to be used. And hey, when they buff sorcerer at the end of the year maybe Dark Magic can be an overall better skill line than it is right now... Or they can turn these reworks into a farce by listening to people who get ratio'd in post likes and make sure no class rework is worth getting excited about because it'll be nerfed to mediocrity just so that the 3 people who enjoy subclassing can keep subclassing.

Also if you think people need to "build around recovery" go fight the Animal Companions Assassination Restoring Light builds around with Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono, you will not run them out of resources and they very much can run Bewitched very easily, this is very obvious to anyone who plays the game at a high skill level.
[edited for baiting]