Please Don't Balance the game around meta...

coop500 · January 20

After trying out the Night Market on the PTS today, I feel like my steadily growing fears have become true.

Subclassing having introduced an insane power spike at the cost of class identity, means that going forward, the devs are developing all new content expecting everyone to play these meta builds. Meanwhile, people who actually play characters, who's builds are a bit weaker but fit a theme they're going for, are out of luck. They're not welcome to such content unless they fellow the top of the line youtuber build guides, and everyone's running the exact same stuff.

Most people here on the forums won't care about this, I realize that, and am likely talking to a brick wall. But I feel the need to say something anyway.

I'm a fairly decent player, I've done a lot of vet dungeons, even a fair number of trial runs, and I've played every single role. I've gotten the Beast personality way back before we had even half the power players have now.

But my characters are CHARACTERS in the most literal sense. They're not just builds on legs. I spend months upon months finding a balance between them being strong, while also still using stuff that fits their character. It's an increasingly difficult balance that, ironically, in some ways subclassing has made worse.

Yes, I have more options now, but everyone else's power has spiked so high, that it's created a bigger divide. This was fine at first though, because the meta players will do what they do, and the rest of us will carry on... Sure, some people will be toxic and demand meta or nothing, but usually people are chill as long as you can do your job.

Until now.

Now the devs, with the release of the Night Market, are gearing towards only supporting the meta folks, and that for me is a big disappointment. Vet trials? Fine, let that be meta only, that's the hardest content in the game. Same for vet hardmode dungeons. And while dungeons and a trial is attached to the Night Market, just stepping FOOT in there after picking your faction is a shell-shock. Nevermind the fact it's limited time, which raises more issues.

Like I said, I know very few on the forums cares. Because the forums are geared towards having more experienced players, with established guilds and folks who do vet HM dungeons on the regular. MOST players are not like this, but I know most here won't care.

Regardless, I hope the devs care. You cannot create this kind of 'open' timed content that's balanced strictly for meta builds and nothing else. Especially without any kind of gradual buildup.

Lord_Hev · January 20

Lot of vague commentary here. I haven't had a chance to test out night market yet, but you can easily make a non-meta build that can solo vet dlc dungeons on non hm. You can do 26k self resist builds with 30k health that still hit 90k on a trial dummy which is exceptionally high for solo content. What exactly about the night market is "balanced strictly for meta builds"?

J18696 · 12:11AM

That was the entire point of the nightmarket have it be alot harder to encourage people working together like the original design of craiglorn

PeacefulAnarchy · 12:27AM

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Lot of vague commentary here. I haven't had a chance to test out night market yet, but you can easily make a non-meta build that can solo vet dlc dungeons on non hm. You can do 26k self resist builds with 30k health that still hit 90k on a trial dummy which is exceptionally high for solo content. What exactly about the night market is "balanced strictly for meta builds"?

I only spent a few minutes in there and it feels much more punishing than any vet dungeon solo. Now that could be because their power expectation is high, or it could be because I misunderstood what they meant by grouping being encouraged but not required. I'd have to go in there with a group to have an opinion on the content, but it definitely felt more punishing than I expected.

wrrn519_ESO · 12:28AM

What you did not say, is that you can do Night Market with many other people. I was not even setup properly, all my skills were messed up and I did not even subclass yet on that character and it was fine. I died a lot, random people were there with me, we were killing things, and trying our best to get the quest accomplished. It was fun. Dying is part of the game. Coop500, you are acting like it is high dps requirement thing but it is not. I am sure it will be adjusted because the rewards need to also be worth the amount time we are going to spend in there, but even my wife who is very very casual would have fun in there.

Its not worth writing an article to criticize something that is not even close to complete.

Desiato · 12:31AM

There is no requirement to "play the meta." Not even close.

But yeah, a player will have to put some thought and effort into crafting their builds according to the challenges presented to them. In other words, actual gameplay, something 99.99% of combat content in ESO tragically lacks.

Soarora · 12:35AM

I build the same way you do, my characters are characters, not canvasses to throw builds on. That said, I really don't think that being pure class is an issue, at least not in the general Night Market area. I will be pure class tanking for sure and my only concern is recovery (we had no healer which is the problem there, but also pure class tanks can end up with more recovery than subclass anyways). My warden-- off-meta and only one line subclassed into assassination-- also felt completely fine in there. I even spent some time in there with 0 arcanist DPS and it was fine! We did all swap to arcanist just because we have it but I didn't feel like it was absolutely necessary.

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Lot of vague commentary here. I haven't had a chance to test out night market yet, but you can easily make a non-meta build that can solo vet dlc dungeons on non hm. You can do 26k self resist builds with 30k health that still hit 90k on a trial dummy which is exceptionally high for solo content. What exactly about the night market is "balanced strictly for meta builds"?

I only spent a few minutes in there and it feels much more punishing than any vet dungeon solo. Now that could be because their power expectation is high, or it could be because I misunderstood what they meant by grouping being encouraged but not required. I'd have to go in there with a group to have an opinion on the content, but it definitely felt more punishing than I expected.

You don't need to group as in be in a group with them but at least need to follow people around. It can be hard to find a group though if you're going in solo-- I started in a wing not seeing anyone and had to switch when someone I was talking to (but not grouped with) found other players. We ran together for a bit and later ended up grouping (granted, I knew the players we were following).

heimdall14_9 · 2:37AM

just goT done testing it got 3 quest done running solo and joining up with 1 other at quest points , the fights are nice on my 1115cp pure sorc in non meta build ...i actually felt like i was fighting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this zone should be lots of fun live at all points of time ..... THANKS FOR AN GREAT ZONE

Arunei · 2:48AM

The problem is it was said in the livesteam that this zone was geared towards "experienced players" and groups, but also that it's supposed to be designed to be accessible to everyone. And right now? That is 100% NOT the case.

"Experienced" players shouldn't mean players who run meta builds. It should mean people who understand how to play the game, how to dodge roll and stay out of red, how to interrupt, how to block, how to bash, other such mechanics. I have a pure class Oakensorc and while she doesn't hit uber super ultra DPS numbers, she's got solid DPS and survivability. Yet when I got into the actual Zone proper...I can't get passed the very first packs of mobs. I get shredded within like a few seconds and do next to no damage in that time frame.

I've been playing since closed beta. I understand mechanics, I know how to move and do my rotation and everything. I'm experienced. I've done plenty of vet dungeons, I've done some vet HM stuff. I'm experienced. But what ZOS must see as experienced and what the average person's definition of experienced are don't seem to be the same thing.

It's totally fine for there to be content in this Zone that requires either grouping with friends/guildies or teaming up with randos that are there, but the whole Zone can't be that way. Trying to do basic questing can't be that way. Not when it was made pretty clear in the livesteam that it isn't strictly group content.

heimdall14_9 · 3:04AM

Arunei wrote: »

The problem is it was said in the livesteam that this zone was geared towards "experienced players" and groups, but also that it's supposed to be designed to be accessible to everyone. And right now? That is 100% NOT the case.

"Experienced" players shouldn't mean players who run meta builds. It should mean people who understand how to play the game, how to dodge roll and stay out of red, how to interrupt, how to block, how to bash, other such mechanics. I have a pure class Oakensorc and while she doesn't hit uber super ultra DPS numbers, she's got solid DPS and survivability. Yet when I got into the actual Zone proper...I can't get passed the very first packs of mobs. I get shredded within like a few seconds and do next to no damage in that time frame.

I've been playing since closed beta. I understand mechanics, I know how to move and do my rotation and everything. I'm experienced. I've done plenty of vet dungeons, I've done some vet HM stuff. I'm experienced. But what ZOS must see as experienced and what the average person's definition of experienced are don't seem to be the same thing.

It's totally fine for there to be content in this Zone that requires either grouping with friends/guildies or teaming up with randos that are there, but the whole Zone can't be that way. Trying to do basic questing can't be that way. Not when it was made pretty clear in the livesteam that it isn't strictly group content.

1115cp pure sorc and i had no issues at all in there was fun for once to actaully fight the ads not just run passed them because they waste of an heavy attack lol but i get it we havent seen this lvl of fights outside of VET dungeons and trials but thats the fun in it I LOVED THE OLD CRAG got to where i could run the delves solo only making it more fun , i dont like fights that i cant even rotate an attack fully without it dying

J18696 · 3:08AM

Like the user above said ive ran through the zone a few times now and the average person i ran into isnt running a typical meta setup and seem tobe doing fine that I can see this is the nature of harder content if you cant do it alone you can still wait for people to run past and join them without actually joining their grp

Just as a tldr i ran through on my pvp build and was able todo the content I did try well enough(not very fast >.>)

Arunei · 3:15AM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

The problem is it was said in the livesteam that this zone was geared towards "experienced players" and groups, but also that it's supposed to be designed to be accessible to everyone. And right now? That is 100% NOT the case.

"Experienced" players shouldn't mean players who run meta builds. It should mean people who understand how to play the game, how to dodge roll and stay out of red, how to interrupt, how to block, how to bash, other such mechanics. I have a pure class Oakensorc and while she doesn't hit uber super ultra DPS numbers, she's got solid DPS and survivability. Yet when I got into the actual Zone proper...I can't get passed the very first packs of mobs. I get shredded within like a few seconds and do next to no damage in that time frame.

I've been playing since closed beta. I understand mechanics, I know how to move and do my rotation and everything. I'm experienced. I've done plenty of vet dungeons, I've done some vet HM stuff. I'm experienced. But what ZOS must see as experienced and what the average person's definition of experienced are don't seem to be the same thing.

It's totally fine for there to be content in this Zone that requires either grouping with friends/guildies or teaming up with randos that are there, but the whole Zone can't be that way. Trying to do basic questing can't be that way. Not when it was made pretty clear in the livesteam that it isn't strictly group content.

1115cp pure sorc and i had no issues at all in there was fun for once to actaully fight the ads not just run passed them because they waste of an heavy attack lol but i get it we havent seen this lvl of fights outside of VET dungeons and trials but thats the fun in it I LOVED THE OLD CRAG got to where i could run the delves solo only making it more fun , i dont like fights that i cant even rotate an attack fully without it dying

I'm curious as to what your full build looks like. I'm running a pure Oakensorc pet build and like I said, I don't have the strongest build at all, nowhere near meta, but I am dying within literal seconds to the first pack of mobs in the Skittering Precinct. There is no reason why a character that's able to handle decently difficult content in other areas of the game should be getting killed so quickly and doing so little damage here.

And again, they said in the livesteam this is supposed to be a Zone deigned to be accessible by everyone. That would include people running less than optimal builds, people who aren't in groups (since they specify between experienced players and groups), and so on. I am an experienced player with an above-average build. This is not accessible to me.

And I know they can't make it a more difficult Zone and then also make it that someone doing 7k average DPS can breeze through it. But let me again point at the "experienced players" part, and reiterate I am experienced. Am I a top-tier leaderboard player? Not at all. But there needs to be some sort of balancing here if X person says it's just fine but Y person is struggling (while also not struggling due to being a totally trash player).

J18696 · 3:21AM

I think they need to commit to a approach to this zone either its for a collective effort of banding together as a faction to win the night market or they dumb it down so everyone can solo it within reason but then you completely lose all difficulty because a trash mob pull design to allow the average person to solo isnt even remotely hard when you throw 5 people at it

heimdall14_9 · 3:21AM

Arunei wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

The problem is it was said in the livesteam that this zone was geared towards "experienced players" and groups, but also that it's supposed to be designed to be accessible to everyone. And right now? That is 100% NOT the case.

"Experienced" players shouldn't mean players who run meta builds. It should mean people who understand how to play the game, how to dodge roll and stay out of red, how to interrupt, how to block, how to bash, other such mechanics. I have a pure class Oakensorc and while she doesn't hit uber super ultra DPS numbers, she's got solid DPS and survivability. Yet when I got into the actual Zone proper...I can't get passed the very first packs of mobs. I get shredded within like a few seconds and do next to no damage in that time frame.

I've been playing since closed beta. I understand mechanics, I know how to move and do my rotation and everything. I'm experienced. I've done plenty of vet dungeons, I've done some vet HM stuff. I'm experienced. But what ZOS must see as experienced and what the average person's definition of experienced are don't seem to be the same thing.

It's totally fine for there to be content in this Zone that requires either grouping with friends/guildies or teaming up with randos that are there, but the whole Zone can't be that way. Trying to do basic questing can't be that way. Not when it was made pretty clear in the livesteam that it isn't strictly group content.

1115cp pure sorc and i had no issues at all in there was fun for once to actaully fight the ads not just run passed them because they waste of an heavy attack lol but i get it we havent seen this lvl of fights outside of VET dungeons and trials but thats the fun in it I LOVED THE OLD CRAG got to where i could run the delves solo only making it more fun , i dont like fights that i cant even rotate an attack fully without it dying

I'm curious as to what your full build looks like. I'm running a pure Oakensorc pet build and like I said, I don't have the strongest build at all, nowhere near meta, but I am dying within literal seconds to the first pack of mobs in the Skittering Precinct. There is no reason why a character that's able to handle decently difficult content in other areas of the game should be getting killed so quickly and doing so little damage here.

And again, they said in the livesteam this is supposed to be a Zone deigned to be accessible by everyone. That would include people running less than optimal builds, people who aren't in groups (since they specify between experienced players and groups), and so on. I am an experienced player with an above-average build. This is not accessible to me.

And I know they can't make it a more difficult Zone and then also make it that someone doing 7k average DPS can breeze through it. But let me again point at the "experienced players" part, and reiterate I am experienced. Am I a top-tier leaderboard player? Not at all. But there needs to be some sort of balancing here if X person says it's just fine but Y person is struggling (while also not struggling due to being a totally trash player).

5 segment 5 storm masters 1 slim and oak ,,, is my build on that toon non pet

Soarora · 3:35AM

Arunei wrote: »

The problem is it was said in the livesteam that this zone was geared towards "experienced players" and groups, but also that it's supposed to be designed to be accessible to everyone. And right now? That is 100% NOT the case.

"Experienced" players shouldn't mean players who run meta builds. It should mean people who understand how to play the game, how to dodge roll and stay out of red, how to interrupt, how to block, how to bash, other such mechanics. I have a pure class Oakensorc and while she doesn't hit uber super ultra DPS numbers, she's got solid DPS and survivability. Yet when I got into the actual Zone proper...I can't get passed the very first packs of mobs. I get shredded within like a few seconds and do next to no damage in that time frame.

I've been playing since closed beta. I understand mechanics, I know how to move and do my rotation and everything. I'm experienced. I've done plenty of vet dungeons, I've done some vet HM stuff. I'm experienced. But what ZOS must see as experienced and what the average person's definition of experienced are don't seem to be the same thing.

It's totally fine for there to be content in this Zone that requires either grouping with friends/guildies or teaming up with randos that are there, but the whole Zone can't be that way. Trying to do basic questing can't be that way. Not when it was made pretty clear in the livesteam that it isn't strictly group content.

It's not about needing a meta build in order to play it. I don't know what the player cap is but it's double digits at least. The thing is, you need a tank or to be very tanky (I will note that solo builds traditionally are not just DPS builds but they are built pretty tanky). Having a tank massively helps.

Here's what Finn said to me in the "No new dungeons?" thread:

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

So it's not less, just different. One example that we haven't really talked about yet, but you will see when Night Market comes to the PTS this month, is there are three 4-Player instances (with 1 boss encounter) and one 12-player Trial encounter (1 boss) in that zone. We had a studio playtest today and we can also attest that the Night Market encounters are quite challenging! The Night Market is a unique experience and while it isn't a new dungeon or Trial, we think it'll scratch that same itch.

Thank you for the additional information on The Night Market! I’m glad to hear we weren’t forgotten about but I’m worried this will be another Bastion Nymic situation. Bastion Nymics are 4-person but they’re certainly not dungeons. For context on the kinds of things we do, my dungeon guild supports dungeons for pledges, challengers, hard mode progs, trifectas, motif farms (on hard mode) and mask farms (sometimes also on hard mode), but we also support Black Rose Prison and Infinite Archive.

I hope that the difficulty (at least optionally) will truly be high enough for those of us who do hard mode dungeons and it won’t just be a veteran level burnfest. I don’t expect Black Gem Foundry trifecta level of difficulty from a temporary event but something around Lep Seclusa Hard Mode would be nice.

Without going into too much detail (because you will see it soon on PTS), Night Market is a brand new type of zone that started with a group focus. There are activities solo players can do but they will be hard pressed to get to these activities without at least following groups of players around. The pack pulls you normally would see in overland are amped up here and there are lots of challenging monsters in the more open sections as well as the instanced sections. The goal is to give groups of players more activities in a dedicated zone where they can just go and have fun. For instance, one piece of internal feedback from someone that plays regularly in dungeon and trials was that they appreciated having activities for asymmetrical group comps. If you only have 5, 6, or 7 people online, you can jump in Night Market and have a good time.

Maybe the stream was misleading, I'd have to go back and watch it, but what Finn said here is very accurate to what it actually is. I actually ended up in a group earlier just by following people (though admittedly I knew them and they probably knew me) and a few times the group I was in and other groups converged. That was after having the same experience as you, though, trying to solo it and instantly dying (but to me, this was a good thing, as I was worried the night market would be under scaled).

In terms of quests, you can actually walk around almost all of the enemies and the ones you accidentally pull, you can run (or streak/ball of lightning) away from. They have a pretty small radius before they turn around and go home. Most of the quests are just repeatable dailies. I think the only "real" quests are maybe the 3 faction "main" quests. This 100% is not coming across as a questing zone. It's a group zone that has dailies.

Edit: The faction "main" quests aren't "real" quests either. I was able to solo it by running around enemies and interacting with the quest areas before I got killed. I made a thread covering all the quests I've seen thus far and what they entail: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687908/night-market-quest-list

keto3000 · 3:39AM

Adventure zones were part of original concept for the game back in 2014 when we still had veteran ranks! Craglorn was the model.... More difficult overland, an adventure zone storyline and then the 3 original trials, AA, HRC, SO all showing great storyline and progressive difficulty progressions.

It even introduced the original jewel arena, DRAGONSTAR ARENA.

I feel the 'Night Market" is an attempt to return to this style of gameplay. ESO & many other MMO hybrid games all seem to be converging on this type of gameplay, e.g. NEVERWINTER ONLINE ( D&D lore), RUNESCAPE....

Just musing out loud...

J18696 · 3:45AM

Id say how they explained the zone is fairly on point its designed for more experienced players and it is accessible to everyone through being able to group up to make it easier

kojou · 4:57AM

I just went in and did a couple quests. While it is easy to get overwhelmed if you kite a lot, or run into a boss, most trash packs are soloable by a relatively tanky player. Just don't expect to waltz in with your trial spec DD and think you are going to waste everything.

I would compare it to ~Arc 5 of Infinite Archive for the trash, and a bit harder than that for the bosses. If you spec like you are doing Infinite Archive (minus the Focused Efforts) then you will be fine. If you have someone tanking then you can probably go in a lot squishier.

Lord_Hev · 7:02AM

Yea literally, any standard open world pvp build(or using that build theorycraft mentality focused at "pve-focused set-up") should do just fine surviving and managing mob packs solo. It has nothing to do with being meta. It has everything to do with understanding survivability and having situational awareness.

Happy to hear they are bringing back the original craglorn-spark. The only issue I had with craglorn at its incarnation was the arbitrary forced grouping(you need x players for pressure plates to progress)

MXVIIDREAM · 8:36AM

Not around meta agreed but to a point we can compete would be nice