AD42 wrote: »

Maybe make some changes to Battle Spirit. Reducing healing received by 88%. Reduce shield durability by 88%. That's the simplest solution.

Going off their current formula and approach in OP. I agree there are many ways to tackle the current overheating/ ball groups superiority problem but my hope is that this platform can be tweaked and published in an acceptable manner via the same patch cycle rather than being benched.

AD42 wrote: »

Maybe make some changes to Battle Spirit. Reducing healing received by 88%. Reduce shield durability by 88%. That's the simplest solution.

What is the problem, how does the solution solve the problem without making other problems?

The problem is coordinated groups STACKING over time effects. A heal cut across the entirety of pvp affects everyone and does not change the behavior at all. We would still have the same amount of hots and shields spammed and STACKED. Except now the casual crowd who can't adapt as quickly would suffer for half a year before they pick up on what do build with the new balance.

We need a targeted solution for the real problem. Unfortunately changing a major gamerule like how hots/dots stack in pvp is not a simple character sheet buff like battlespirit. The actual damage calculation code for each skill and effect would end up having to be changed. It is possible now with the vengeance system PvP and PvE split skills.....however now you will double any future workload for zos because there are double the skills. This is why Gina says more complicated solutions are not feasible right now.

Instead of changing a gamerule like not stacking, the other solution is changing each individual skill as they do their planned reworks. For example making echoing vigor on its own only hit the closest 3 allies and you in a tighter 8m radius. Maybe make other aoe heals only go up to 4 players at the same time. Now zos still has the same workload, however it is not controlled by a gamerule, but by the devs REMEMBERING to follow this written in chalk standard.

Unfortunately for us as a player/consumer we will be stuck for years with whatever skill redesigns they come up with. If they do these redesigns without first deciding on whether they want to 1. change the game rule 2. redesign every skill 3. Do nothing ........we will be stuck with whatever PVE redesign they come up with for classes and weapons.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

Maybe make some changes to Battle Spirit. Reducing healing received by 88%. Reduce shield durability by 88%. That's the simplest solution.

What is the problem, how does the solution solve the problem without making other problems?

The problem is coordinated groups STACKING over time effects. A heal cut across the entirety of pvp affects everyone and does not change the behavior at all. We would still have the same amount of hots and shields spammed and STACKED. Except now the casual crowd who can't adapt as quickly would suffer for half a year before they pick up on what do build with the new balance.

We need a targeted solution for the real problem. Unfortunately changing a major gamerule like how hots/dots stack in pvp is not a simple character sheet buff like battlespirit. The actual damage calculation code for each skill and effect would end up having to be changed. It is possible now with the vengeance system PvP and PvE split skills.....however now you will double any future workload for zos because there are double the skills. This is why Gina says more complicated solutions are not feasible right now.

Instead of changing a gamerule like not stacking, the other solution is changing each individual skill as they do their planned reworks. For example making echoing vigor on its own only hit the closest 3 allies and you in a tighter 8m radius. Maybe make other aoe heals only go up to 4 players at the same time. Now zos still has the same workload, however it is not controlled by a gamerule, but by the devs REMEMBERING to follow this written in chalk standard.

Unfortunately for us as a player/consumer we will be stuck for years with whatever skill redesigns they come up with. If they do these redesigns without first deciding on whether they want to 1. change the game rule 2. redesign every skill 3. Do nothing ........we will be stuck with whatever PVE redesign they come up with for classes and weapons.

I personally disagree, while changing to non-stacking heals (which I am not necessarily suggesting in OP) is a solution- it also CAN be fixed via battle spirit. As I mentioned prior, I do believe their current resolve can be tweaked to conform to the actual needs of players that consider ball groups a major part of certain PvP content.

However, even if that outcome was not desirable- they could easily at a “healing received from others by let’s say 50% instead of this.

It would look like: Base 50%-55% (using as example) reduction in healing in PvP like default like it has been for a long time, and then another 50% reduction to healing specifically FROM OTHERS.

This would look like:

-the USUAL 50-55% healing reduction on MYSELF (let’s say 50% for easy maths)

-50% healing reduction FROM OTHERS (not myself)

= 50% reduction to healing I apply to myself, 75% overall (again, maths) reduction to healing to myself APPLIED BY OTHERS

-then the focus would be on my own personal strength (anti-ballgroup mentality) and less on the strength of others (hot stacking, etc.) while still providing significant yet heavily reduced benefit with assisted (hots, etc.) by others.

I do not think burst healing should be excluded in this calculation either like some do- potentially protect single target healing BUT NOT AoE burst healing. It is JUST AS MUCH as a culprit as the AoE hot/ground-based healing.

Anything that is, ‘I press a button and it has the potential to affect A LOT of people’ (referring to healing-only, if that wasn’t clear) should be affected by a targeted “ball groups” change.

ksbrugh wrote: »

You received 25% less healing from your group member and allies that would be added to the already battle spirit deduction

Unfortunately 25% doesn’t translate to a meaningful number in the grand scheme of things.

And yes, the problem looks like this in a very basic example:

-1 echoing vigor with decent specs may appear like 1000 effective hps (simple numbers for simple math) with 1 person to body block/etc. for effective mitigation.

Meanwhile 6 people with similar specs = 6000 effective hps and 6 people to body block/etc. for effective mitigation-

and now 12+ and possibly more… with multiple dedicated healers, with buff sets, with shields, with well- I feel like you get the point.

The reduction is MERITED because coordinated groups are stacking all of these things to the point where they are virtually unkillable even with the respective “ball group tools” like V.D. and plaguebreak.

This isn’t “skill” and it’s both clearly not healthy for PvP and especially for performance (people that honestly should not be alive to spam things are alive 24/7 being virtually unkillable with little-to-no individual thought necessary to create the ‘product’).

///

It’s interesting because even with the harshest iteration of these proposed changes, the only guarantee for the win STILL may be siege weapon (which should be adjusted, nerfed, if these changes are to go through- in my opinion)

This is mainly because shields and other types of mitigation are still left unchecked.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

Maybe make some changes to Battle Spirit. Reducing healing received by 88%. Reduce shield durability by 88%. That's the simplest solution.

What is the problem, how does the solution solve the problem without making other problems?

The problem is coordinated groups STACKING over time effects. A heal cut across the entirety of pvp affects everyone and does not change the behavior at all. We would still have the same amount of hots and shields spammed and STACKED. Except now the casual crowd who can't adapt as quickly would suffer for half a year before they pick up on what do build with the new balance.

We need a targeted solution for the real problem. Unfortunately changing a major gamerule like how hots/dots stack in pvp is not a simple character sheet buff like battlespirit. The actual damage calculation code for each skill and effect would end up having to be changed. It is possible now with the vengeance system PvP and PvE split skills.....however now you will double any future workload for zos because there are double the skills. This is why Gina says more complicated solutions are not feasible right now.

Instead of changing a gamerule like not stacking, the other solution is changing each individual skill as they do their planned reworks. For example making echoing vigor on its own only hit the closest 3 allies and you in a tighter 8m radius. Maybe make other aoe heals only go up to 4 players at the same time. Now zos still has the same workload, however it is not controlled by a gamerule, but by the devs REMEMBERING to follow this written in chalk standard.

Unfortunately for us as a player/consumer we will be stuck for years with whatever skill redesigns they come up with. If they do these redesigns without first deciding on whether they want to 1. change the game rule 2. redesign every skill 3. Do nothing ........we will be stuck with whatever PVE redesign they come up with for classes and weapons.

I personally disagree, while changing to non-stacking heals (which I am not necessarily suggesting in OP) is a solution- it also CAN be fixed via battle spirit. As I mentioned prior, I do believe their current resolve can be tweaked to conform to the actual needs of players that consider ball groups a major part of certain PvP content.

However, even if that outcome was not desirable- they could easily at a “healing received from others by let’s say 50% instead of this.

It would look like: Base 50%-55% (using as example) reduction in healing in PvP like default like it has been for a long time, and then another 50% reduction to healing specifically FROM OTHERS.

This would look like:

-the USUAL 50-55% healing reduction on MYSELF (let’s say 50% for easy maths)

-50% healing reduction FROM OTHERS (not myself)

= 50% reduction to healing I apply to myself, 75% overall (again, maths) reduction to healing to myself APPLIED BY OTHERS

Thats the thing, there is no healing received from others. Battlespirit can only affect your character sheet stats. It sounds like it SHOULD be possible but over the years they have always shot down these kinds of ideas and said they can do blanket stat changes.

• Healing done affects your outgoing tooltip either outwards towards allies or outwards back to yourself.
• Healing taken=healing received and these affect your incoming heals including both incoming from yourself and incoming from allies. There simply is no seperation stat wise that lets them do your suggestion.

If there was, I would agree with you that they should reduce incoming healing from allies as a simple solution. I'd be curious how the code for pale order works at preventing heals from allies. However it probably just prevents targetting all together in some hodge podge way instead of actually cutting heals.

That’s really interesting. I never considered that to be a possible limitation for a fix via that courtesy suggestion.

They initially took this stance of limitations on things like CrossPlay yet even that seems to now be on the table in some capacity. I wonder if that’s something they’d be willing to R and D or “jerryrig” then if they found that to be the more appropriate, more permanent solution.

Also, based on what you said and what I know of the game when I think of it, I bet you’re around accurate on the assumption of pale order, ally healing functionality.

The problem with making the nerf via battle spirit is that it impacts everyone when the point is to limit only ball groups.

I know it will be harder to make it so players can only have on instance of any given heal on them at once, but it's a fair solution that handicaps ball groups but not solo's and small groups.

From the perspective of someone who plays all type of PvP content ( Alikr dueling, Ballgroup, BGs, X'ing, smallscale, ganking, bombing etc. ), and a lot of experience when it comes to making PvP group builds, there's a few things that people need to understand.

1. It's completely normal for a 12-man organized group to win vs a 12-man zerg. The same principle applies in PvE for example. A guild that pushes for score will probably have a faster clear time and better overall DPS than 2-3 groups of random players combined. Coordinated play will ALWAYS outperform uncoordinated group play.
2. The only "sticky HoTs" that group use are vigor and the heal signature script from Soul Burst ( which has like 25% of vigor's healing ). There's a few extra which are more like side effects - like the Necro burst heal when you consume corpses, of which you probably have 1 of, if even that. Radient Regen is actually a horrible skill, so I have no clue why people even complain about it. The reason for increased survival are because people are burst healing literally non stop, although you don't really see that if you don't actually pay attention, and the fact that most people use single target skills. If you have an average of 4k DPS, well, imagine that DPS being distributed equally among 12 people, since it's impossible to target a moving person inside such a big group. So rather than 4k DPS you divide it evenly among the 12 ppl, which is 333 DPS. If you get a full group consisting of random people, all of them parsing on one respective person, then 1 burst heal / second literally mitigates your whole damage.
3. Nerfing HoTs will not fix the "issues" you're talking about fyi. For whatever reason people seem to think that, by nerfing HoTs, groups will run the same amount of defensive investment in their setup, and you'll have an easy time killing them. A lot of the skills / sets / scripts etc. that organized groups use are there to fight other groups, not average players. As an example, most groups run Assassination on their DDs, simply for the Merciless Resolve. Why? Because most people that play in ballgroups are rather decent at blocking Rush of Agony / Dark Convergence pulls. Often you end up pulling nothing vs experienced people, and therefore you need some single target investment. So if healing were to get nerfed, i'd definitely ditch sets like Snake in the Stars, Farstrider and Elemental Catalyst, since I don't need these giga burst potential buffs to kill a few solo players if my damage is well timed and coordinated. I'd probably swap assassination out for something else, as Merciless Resolve is not exactly useful when fighting large enemy groups. I'd give up Balorgh for Colovian Highlands General to make sure I have a barrier everytime I push or retreat.

To make it short, nerfing HoTs will force groups into adopting a way more defensive setup. How will this affect you as a solo player? It won't. 3-4 coordinated DDs will still 1-shot you, since timing 4 damage skills to hit at once is more than enough. It will simply discourage groups to engage against one another, since there won't be enough damage to push through a barrier and 12 people burst healing, and most fights will be a boring stalemate.

As I said countless times on this particular subject - not only it's normal for uncoordinated groups to lose against strong groups ( the same way 5 beginner / average players can get destroyed by a single good X'er ), but if there's something to be done about it, the correct approach would be to implement tools to help you.

And such tools need to be attrition based tools. Buff removal / Sustain Eater / AoE DPS ( NOT burst ) oriented kind of tools. You won't burst a 12-man group as a solo player. Or as a duo. Or as a 4-man. You have to wear them down. If you expect some miracle tool to burst down a large group of players, what's stopping people from using it against you? Azureblight is a very good example of this, which was by far the strongest way coordinated groups could play in PvP. Funnily enough, people were under the impression that it's an "anti ballgroup" tool simply because groups didn't have enough time to experiment with it, or were too lazy and comfortable to make such a big change.

Aside from that, the easiest counter is to make a better group yourself.

Key Battle Spirit Metrics
Health: Increased by 5,000.
Healing Received: Decreased by 55%. Limits HOTs to 1 per source ( non casted HOTs ) well be decreased by 20% of casters strength
Damage Taken : Decreased by 55% Block Mitigation Cap at 80%
Shield Strength: Decreased by 50%. Limits shields to 1 per source ( non casted shields) well be decreased by 40% of casters strength
Health Recovery: Decreased by 50%.
Range Modifier: Ability range of 28 meters or more is increased by 8 meters
Pre-stacking Restrictions: Specific skills, such as Merciless Resolve, cannot be pre-stacked before combat while Battle Spirit is active.
Stat Scaling: Players below Champion Point (CP) 160 are scaled up to CP 160,
Movement Speed Cap of 85%
Critical Damage Done Decreased by 15%
Damaging Proc Sets Damage Decreased by 50%


THAT'S WHAT BATTLE SPIRIT SHOULD BE
with an robust battle spirit system the DEV TEAM could / should , change a lot more of the PAIN POINTS players have and stop a lot of new ones coming up

some of the top PAIN POINT FOR PVP
1) BALLGROUPS ---- we all know this is because the amount of heals/shields they can stack
2) GANKER'S/1 SHOT KILLS ---- CRIT DAMAGE has gotten out of control for some skills ( SPEC BOW )while crit resist has been lowered
3) PLAYERS MOVING TO FAST---- sometimes player's are faster on foot then on an MOUNT and in combat this brings about desyncing of players location making skills misfire ( concealed weapon ) putting the game into an negative impact on itself
4) DAMAGING PROC SET'S --- i think we all know this one had an whole campaign made around it but just hide behind the "they use it so , so do i" but being 100% having sets play the game at an higher rate then the player themselves aint PVP it pvs and SETS PROC shouldnt be the MAIN factor in the fight
5) PERFORMANCE---taking away all the heal/shield stacking and get control of movement speed along as dealing with few known skills for desync's and we might have better performance
6) NON-KILLABLE FAKE TANKS WITH HIGH DAMAGE --- block mitigation is crazy high at this point that you don't even have to spec for it add in damage you can l2 then kill like its nothingness, taking away some block mitigate would make it so you have to SPEC INTO BEING TANKY and have less damage

im sorry but if ALL ZOS DOES is cut down the healing but not other things all they are going to be doing is going around in an never ending circle of CHANGING things and not just ADJUST things like they always have
having an robust system gives them that away to ADJUST things NOT needing to change EVERYTHING over an 2% ADJUSTMENT
but nothing in the battle spirit should be dependent on group size or give out an NEGATIVE impact RESTRICTED YES but never an NEGATIVE

evLRise wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Key Battle Spirit Metrics
Health: Increased by 5,000.
Healing Received: Decreased by 55%. Limits HOTs to 1 per source ( non casted HOTs ) well be decreased by 20% of casters strength
Damage Taken : Decreased by 55% Block Mitigation Cap at 80%
Shield Strength: Decreased by 50%. Limits shields to 1 per source ( non casted shields) well be decreased by 40% of casters strength
Health Recovery: Decreased by 50%.
Range Modifier: Ability range of 28 meters or more is increased by 8 meters
Pre-stacking Restrictions: Specific skills, such as Merciless Resolve, cannot be pre-stacked before combat while Battle Spirit is active.
Stat Scaling: Players below Champion Point (CP) 160 are scaled up to CP 160,
Movement Speed Cap of 85%
Critical Damage Done Decreased by 15%
Damaging Proc Sets Damage Decreased by 50%


THAT'S WHAT BATTLE SPIRIT SHOULD BE
with an robust battle spirit system the DEV TEAM could / should , change a lot more of the PAIN POINTS players have and stop a lot of new ones coming up

some of the top PAIN POINT FOR PVP
1) BALLGROUPS ---- we all know this is because the amount of heals/shields they can stack
2) GANKER'S/1 SHOT KILLS ---- CRIT DAMAGE has gotten out of control for some skills ( SPEC BOW )while crit resist has been lowered
3) PLAYERS MOVING TO FAST---- sometimes player's are faster on foot then on an MOUNT and in combat this brings about desyncing of players location making skills misfire ( concealed weapon ) putting the game into an negative impact on itself
4) DAMAGING PROC SET'S --- i think we all know this one had an whole campaign made around it but just hide behind the "they use it so , so do i" but being 100% having sets play the game at an higher rate then the player themselves aint PVP it pvs and SETS PROC shouldnt be the MAIN factor in the fight
5) PERFORMANCE---taking away all the heal/shield stacking and get control of movement speed along as dealing with few known skills for desync's and we might have better performance
6) NON-KILLABLE FAKE TANKS WITH HIGH DAMAGE --- block mitigation is crazy high at this point that you don't even have to spec for it add in damage you can l2 then kill like its nothingness, taking away some block mitigate would make it so you have to SPEC INTO BEING TANKY and have less damage

im sorry but if ALL ZOS DOES is cut down the healing but not other things all they are going to be doing is going around in an never ending circle of CHANGING things and not just ADJUST things like they always have
having an robust system gives them that away to ADJUST things NOT needing to change EVERYTHING over an 2% ADJUSTMENT
but nothing in the battle spirit should be dependent on group size or give out an NEGATIVE impact RESTRICTED YES but never an NEGATIVE

This is horrible feedback.
Health increased by 5000. Why? People are already too tanky since sustain is so widely available. You literally only need to invest in 2/3 stats ( survival and damage ). A lot of burst setups already feel annoying to use due to the amount of people running 40k HP rallying cry 30k resistances.
Healing Received: I don't even understand what you're saying here.
Damage Taken: Decreased by 55%. Again, why? Duels already have 100 years to finish. Block Mitigation Cap at 80%. You're already at 80% from having a shield/ice staff. So I can't run any block mitigation buff / set for what exact reason? So instead of being awarded for skillful blocks, Everyone is a sponge that spams DoTs and pressure? Play PvE if that's what you want.
Shield Strength: It's already decreased by 50% and limited to 1 per source. Why would there be another penalty on top of that. If you have trouble with shields you even have tech CPs against it.
Health Recovery: Decreased by 50%. This is dumb in itself. This stat was nerfed into oblivion due to OP passives, and rather than nerfing the OP aspects of it, they destroyed the stat itself and AFTERWARDS destroyed the OP stuff as well, without reverting the change. There would be no problem if this stat returns to 100% effectiveness in PvP.
Range Modifier: The more I read the more I realize you want to encourage boring stalemates rather than rewarding gameplay.
Pre-stacking restrictions: Another bad example of balancing. The idea of stacking is to introduce a pseudo-cooldown in certain skills. Since ESO does not have cooldowns by default, this way of handing it makes lots of sense. No one is stacking merciless resolve pre-combat to gank you, I can promise that.
Stat Scaling: This actually hurts players since it will decrease their item effectiveness without getting any passives lmao.
Crit damage decreased: You already have transmutation, impen trait, resilience CP, farstrider, rallying cry etc. Slot some of those instead of suggesting punishing people for their investment choice.
Proc damage decreased: Yea, no. Proc sets are very balanced. All of them have counterplay. And there's always the opportunity cost. Try to play full proc instead of stat sets and see how your healing feels, aside from the clunkiness of extra damage line-up layers.

1) Ballgroup main survival tool is coordinated play. Even if you took away HoTs completely and cap it at 1 vigor per group for example, you'd still experience the exact same scenario. Cuz a coordinated 12-man will always beat your zerg 12-man.
2) Crit resist is higher than it ever was. A ganker has 0 Hp and regen. If you die to it, invest more into survival and react faster.
3) Players that move fast move fast because they invest a skill, a script, a CP, and 3 traits. So yea, as an opportunity cost if I assume a minor courage script, a CP, 3x swift instead of infused and a random skill, that neats around 750 Weapon damage ( 975 with major / minor brutality btw ).
4) Is it proc sets? Or is it skill? Slap 3 proc sets and see how much of a difference it makes against people that already won against you 1v1.
5) Why not take away all AoEs while at it if our goal is to remove a chunk of the game in the name of performance?
6) It's not block mitigation. It's not tanks. If it has damage AND survival, it's someone that knows how to build and knows how to play.

This feedback screams of l2p issues, not actual in-game issues.

can i ask do you know the battle spirit system that the game already has ????

your response screams of someone in denial about the way the game is in order to defend it .....

im an 19x EMPEROR thats being honest about what can FIX PVP for the MAJORITY of the PLAYER'S without DEFENDING any playstyle

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

What I don’t understand is why it’s so hard to simply treat each instance of healing over time like a major buff on the bar. You already have Echoing Vigor applied? Another cast will refresh the duration rather than adding another instance of the same ability. No need to nerf healing amounts in some significant way that will screw over solo players, and heal stacking will be addressed.

Indeed.

Let us hope that this is what they are cooking-up when they allude to long-term solutions.

The majority of players on the forum now seem to favor it as well.

im an 19x EMPEROR thats being honest about what can FIX PVP for the MAJORITY of the PLAYER'S without DEFENDING any playstyle

So, you can fight guards and leech on ticks? Good job. How does that make you a credible PvP'er by the way? Or does AP farming qualify as skill and game knowledge?

If it doesn't qualify as game knowledge ( spoiler btw - it doesn't ), how valuable is in fact a piece of feedback, if it lacks a fundamental understand of that which its trying to change?

There are definitely things that are unbalanced in the game. There are definitely moments that feel unfair, and things that can be abused, which allow less skilled players to come on top ocassionally. But there's a big difference between excuses for why you die and unbalanced mechanics / skills / classes. And most of what you mentioned is definitely not an actual in-game problem. But it's definitely easier to say it's the game rather than spending time analyzing and finding a solution, let alone actually getting out of your comfort zone to adjust to it and implement it.

So I stand by what I said. You described a l2p issue, not a game issue.