DK's Inhale's sustain change needs to be reverted

BattleAxe · January 20

Simply put first of 7 classes being reworked heavy handed nerfing now before we see how the other classes come out is foolish and will do more harm than good. Keep in mind the sustain skills people mentioned are on classes that haven’t been reworked. Meaning now we have a bench mark of where these skills should be thanks to dk.

On the sentiment of 8 months of dk meta then looks like we will have a ww meta then warden meta then sorc meta so on and so forth as classes get reworked.

I reiterate this is the first of 7 classes just be patient as now with dk we have a benchmark of where all classes can and should be when they get reworked.

hoangdz · January 20

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

This is literally like Hardened Ward magsorc all over again. I made the Ward nerf threads and received the same amount of backlash from people, only for them to find out I was right several months later. I’m simply done with arguing with people about this lol. Enjoy 8 months of DK dominating PvP.

Nothing will dominate PvP currently with the subclass meta dk still struggles to compete with it rarely does tbh and a skill that only works if you’re left alone. It restores 15% of missing resources which is the magicka cast of the skill in most cases so the moment you roll dodge, block, break free, or cast, the return collapses isn’t going to make dk a PvP king 😂 In real combat that’s usually one action. It’s a brief stabiliser, not sustain nowhere near Dark Deal netch siphoning strikes or passive recovery.

24342 max stam, 21060 max mag. Resources were dirt dry when I started the test.

3 ticks of stam, 3 ticks of mag, totaling 8760 stam and 4076 mag restored, after subtracting the initial cost.

That's no where near the "It restores 15% of missing resources which is the magicka cast of the skill in most cases so the moment you roll dodge, block, break free, or cast, the return collapses isn’t going to make dk a PvP king" claim you made.

You are literally telling me how the sustain works when I'm on PTS testing vs real players in real combat and seeing real numbers. I bet you don't even have PTS and are just guessing numbers. This is hilarious lmfao

MXVIIDREAM · January 20

Now you’re saying nerf dk sustain 😂 I think it’s obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to Dragonknights you’re saying one skill breaks sustain for Dragonknights that same skill that restores over 4 seconds possibly 5k resources if you’re empty (you’re dead in PvP if you’re that empty)and if you’re at 50% resources it costs more to cast costs 3.3k to cast off the bat and a dodge roll/block negates most of the stam return, you talk about how it can be used so offensively but have failed to use the skill to show little damage even the damage morph of this skill does, mean while talking about how hard dark deal is to keep up (I’ve never heard of a decent player having issues using dark deal) without you knowing that if you do get interrupted you get the next 3 casts of it interrupt free, on the fastest class in the game , betty netch is passive siphoning strikes is passive Templar-passive
I think it’s clear you’ve a struggle to understand the class and how it functions and have reverted back to the good old nerf this because someone killed me with it logic that’s plagued this game for so many years

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Calling this “too much sustain” ignores how the skill actually works. It costs 3370 Magicka, has 4s uptime, and restores 15% of missing resources, not flat recovery. That means it only looks strong when you’re already nearly empty, and the return drops sharply the moment you block, dodge, or break free. This is not equivalent to permanent 3k recovery, which is passive, unconditional, and always ticking.

Other classes already get equal or better sustain with lower opportunity cost (Dark Deal, Bull Netch, Leeching Strikes) while maintaining pressure. This skill doesn’t let DK ignore recovery; it gives DK a short stabilisation window in a class that otherwise has no passive sustain and some of the highest-cost abilities in PvP.

I’d bet you main another class haven’t played PvP long and got killed by someone using this skill and now you want it nerfed forgetting half the reason the games in the state it is because people cry nerf every single chance they get

You are ignoring alot of the nuances that come with this ability, which I have already explained several comments above. I’m not going to repeat them again here.

I main another class yes, and I’m also one of the best at that class in this game. You can try to bait all you want but the majority of good players testing with me on PTS agree that the sustain from this skill is unnecessary. [/

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

ZOS pls tune this ability down.

Pls also ignore the obvious DK mains that are trying to get a ridiculously OP skill over the line.

Any skill, regardless of class, that can negate the need for any and all sustain in such a way is overtuned. Do not drown this issue in “there are bigger problems”

This is a legit concern and the ability isn’t balanced at all.

hoangdz wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Not something you want next update.

I think a lot of players would prefer a pure dk meta to the animal assassin meta. I don't think these buffs are even enough to bring pressure dk strats up to the level of turtle-burst strats, which can also very easily slot Restoring Light as their third tree.

Pressure DK on PTS is pulling 5k DPS while wearing 3 tank sets because of Corrosive, and burst DK runs Onslaught and delayed Fossilize to guarantee Onslaught hit. Both specs can run full tank and nuke people.

This sounds much more like overtuned ultimate problems.

Lots of folk around here hoping that Onslaught makes it over the line in its current dazzlingly overpowered state.

You can nerf DK sustain which will indirectly nerf its damage/defense by forcing it to build more sustain, or nerf 2 strong offensive ults which can allow different builds because of the 100% penetration, with one of them being usable for other classes. Idk, pick your poison.

MXVIIDREAM · January 20

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just play a permablock build with onslaught and master 2h. Nobody solo or small man will kill you. Then against groups you can ult and wipe them with full damage while in immunity

None of those things require you to be DK or subclass DK.

Can't break what's already broken.

CORRECT, really you just need to stack sustain for a permablock to work.......which if anyone has taken a look around, sustain is absolutely everywhere and disturbingly efficient everywhere.

It is yes however, these perma block tanks do absolutely nothing and it’s what they build specifically for in this game if you invest so heavily into something what’s the issue

By this logic we should nerf infused jewellery just in case someone puts reduced cost of recovery on it, they’re building and investing into it that’s how the game should be

hoangdz · January 20

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Now you’re saying nerf dk sustain 😂 I think it’s obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to Dragonknights you’re saying one skill breaks sustain for Dragonknights that same skill that restores over 4 seconds possibly 5k resources if you’re empty (you’re dead in PvP if you’re that empty)and if you’re at 50% resources it costs more to cast costs 3.3k to cast off the bat and a dodge roll/block negates most of the stam return, you talk about how it can be used so offensively but have failed to use the skill to show little damage even the damage morph of this skill does, mean while talking about how hard dark deal is to keep up (I’ve never heard of a decent player having issues using dark deal) without you knowing that if you do get interrupted you get the next 3 casts of it interrupt free, on the fastest class in the game , betty netch is passive siphoning strikes is passive Templar-passive
I think it’s clear you’ve a struggle to understand the class and how it functions and have reverted back to the good old nerf this because someone killed me with it logic that’s plagued this game for so many years

No point arguing with you when I've already explained the skill with detailed numbers. You're just throwing out random empty statements at this point. Move along

hoangdz · January 20

I also checked your profile and you appear to main DK. That checks out with how blatantly you're defending these DK changes

I should have never wasted time arguing with you from the start lmao

Turtle_Bot · January 20

@hoangdz As far as OP DK reworks are concerned, I'm honestly far more concerned about Volcanic Ward than I am about Inhale.

On a 40k mag, 27k health (before DDF) and capped resistances build (not really that hard to achieve with minimal mag stacking investment) and with that skill, I'm getting a 10k shield (actual shield in PvP, not PvE tooltip) with a 4k heal (actual non-crit heal value, 8k+ tooltip) on top of that shield AND a unique 10% mitigation against the next instance of damage taken (this is actually more OP than U41 hardened ward ever was) and it's on the same skill line that grants:
- Corrosive (best PvP ult in the game)
- fossilize (an even better stun since it can now be timed to land at the same time as a burst combo
- Igneous weapons (mini way of fire)
- shatterspike mantle (mini draugrkin in the armor buff)
- a unique +10% damage done passive
- a passive that turns staff heavies into the active part of siphoning attacks restore and
- free 3k armor.

Oh and the kicker for this skill? Those values don't even include being buffed by Major or Minor Vitality, so buff those numbers by roughly 20%.

I took Daedric Summoning and siphoning lines alongside it to replicate the old magsorc shield stacking playstyle, but to be honest, those lines are just mediocre at best and I would get an insane amount of raw damage running the meta or tier 2 skill lines instead.

TL//DR:
Volcanic ward is literally better U41 Hardened ward, but comes with an actually good skill line included with the skill.

hoangdz · January 20

@Turtle_Bot

Since you mentioned Persistence being huge for sustain, I went ahead and recorded 2 clips of blocking and casting skills with Inhale vs Dark Deal. I did not use any potions for both tests. Since I couldn't find any players online, I decided to test them inside Skyreach against a bunch of mobs. This should create similar results for what I'm intending to test.

In the first test, I replaced Dark Magic with Ardent Flame and tested Inhale:

https://youtu.be/B-aTQWD6OKQ

In the second test, I kept Dark Magic as usual and tested Dark Deal with Persistence:

https://youtu.be/wIWHCc_KUV0

You can clearly see that with the Inhale test, I was taking much more pressure from the adds constantly hitting me, yet I rarely had any moment where I needed to stop blocking or heavy attack. This wasn't the case with the Dark Deal + Persistence test. Despite having 18% cost reduction to my abilities, combined with the adds NOT attacking as often (you can literally see them standing still several seconds), I gassed out much sooner.

Keep in mind, this is on a DPS build with zero Sturdy passives. Inhale alone is clearly outperforming both Dark Deal and Persistence combined. I was also able to kill the adds because Inhale actually adds to your offensive rotation, whereas Dark Deal doesn’t. How come that a sustain skill, even with the help of another sustain passive, still cannot compete with a delayed burst ability? Lol..

hoangdz · January 20

@Turtle_Bot
So when you have a skill that is outsustaining Dark Deal and Persistence passive while blocking and casting abilities, while also being a damage ability itself, then the question is this:

What is stopping a DK from dropping Tri Pots in favor of Spell + Physical resistance pots, or Heroism pots? What's stopping them from running Sugar Skulls to amplify their damage even further? My Sorc is already running Sugar Skulls, but it's pretty clear I'm not gonna be able to compete with Inhale lol..

MXVIIDREAM · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

This is literally like Hardened Ward magsorc all over again. I made the Ward nerf threads and received the same amount of backlash from people, only for them to find out I was right several months later. I’m simply done with arguing with people about this lol. Enjoy 8 months of DK dominating PvP.

Nothing will dominate PvP currently with the subclass meta dk still struggles to compete with it rarely does tbh and a skill that only works if you’re left alone. It restores 15% of missing resources which is the magicka cast of the skill in most cases so the moment you roll dodge, block, break free, or cast, the return collapses isn’t going to make dk a PvP king 😂 In real combat that’s usually one action. It’s a brief stabiliser, not sustain nowhere near Dark Deal netch siphoning strikes or passive recovery.

24342 max stam, 21060 max mag. Resources were dirt dry when I started the test.

3 ticks of stam, 3 ticks of mag, totaling 8760 stam and 4076 mag restored, after subtracting the initial cost.

That's no where near the "It restores 15% of missing resources which is the magicka cast of the skill in most cases so the moment you roll dodge, block, break free, or cast, the return collapses isn’t going to make dk a PvP king" claim you made.

You are literally telling me how the sustain works when I'm on PTS testing vs real players in real combat and seeing real numbers. I bet you don't even have PTS and are just guessing numbers. This is hilarious lmfao[/]

Congratulations testing the numbers at absolute empty standing still in pve well done looks like over the corse you could have spammed dark deal and got more back

Yeah I main a dk - class that’s been gutted many times and now it gets a bit of a buff and you’re over here crying nerf, no surprise like I said

Shame to see people crying about a nerf at the start of a class refresh, but typical really
Funny how your feedback conflicts with the other large majority isn’t it, you realise if you’d have casted a skill or blocked or dodged in your little screenshot of the regen there you’d have been significantly worse off for resources, but you couldn’t do that obviously because that would reflect a fair test

MXVIIDREAM · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot

Since you mentioned Persistence being huge for sustain, I went ahead and recorded 2 clips of blocking and casting skills with Inhale vs Dark Deal. I did not use any potions for both tests. Since I couldn't find any players online, I decided to test them inside Skyreach against a bunch of mobs. This should create similar results for what I'm intending to test.

In the first test, I replaced Dark Magic with Ardent Flame and tested Inhale:

https://youtu.be/B-aTQWD6OKQ

In the second test, I kept Dark Magic as usual and tested Dark Deal with Persistence:

https://youtu.be/wIWHCc_KUV0

You can clearly see that with the Inhale test, I was taking much more pressure from the adds constantly hitting me, yet I rarely had any moment where I needed to stop blocking or heavy attack. This wasn't the case with the Dark Deal + Persistence test. Despite having 18% cost reduction to my abilities, combined with the adds NOT attacking as often (you can literally see them standing still several seconds), I gassed out much sooner.

Keep in mind, this is on a DPS build with zero Sturdy passives. Inhale alone is clearly outperforming both Dark Deal and Persistence combined. I was also able to kill the adds because Inhale actually adds to your offensive rotation, whereas Dark Deal doesn’t. How come that a sustain skill, even with the help of another sustain passive, still cannot compete with a delayed burst ability? Lol..

I like how you casted this with the new flames oblivion up aswell, clearly agreeing the damage for the skills weak

Actually just watched it and realised you also ran out of both resources
That discredits your claim to infinite sustain and perma block, nice one

hoangdz · January 20

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot

Since you mentioned Persistence being huge for sustain, I went ahead and recorded 2 clips of blocking and casting skills with Inhale vs Dark Deal. I did not use any potions for both tests. Since I couldn't find any players online, I decided to test them inside Skyreach against a bunch of mobs. This should create similar results for what I'm intending to test.

In the first test, I replaced Dark Magic with Ardent Flame and tested Inhale:

https://youtu.be/B-aTQWD6OKQ

In the second test, I kept Dark Magic as usual and tested Dark Deal with Persistence:

https://youtu.be/wIWHCc_KUV0

You can clearly see that with the Inhale test, I was taking much more pressure from the adds constantly hitting me, yet I rarely had any moment where I needed to stop blocking or heavy attack. This wasn't the case with the Dark Deal + Persistence test. Despite having 18% cost reduction to my abilities, combined with the adds NOT attacking as often (you can literally see them standing still several seconds), I gassed out much sooner.

Keep in mind, this is on a DPS build with zero Sturdy passives. Inhale alone is clearly outperforming both Dark Deal and Persistence combined. I was also able to kill the adds because Inhale actually adds to your offensive rotation, whereas Dark Deal doesn’t. How come that a sustain skill, even with the help of another sustain passive, still cannot compete with a delayed burst ability? Lol..

I like how you casted this with the new flames oblivion up aswell, clearly agreeing the damage for the skills weak

Actually just watched it and realised you also ran out of both resources
That discredits your claim to infinite sustain and perma block, nice one

You’re clearly trolling if that’s what you got from the video, it’s so frustrating to have any meaningful discussion on the forums when you have people like this lol.

Anyways, those videos show very clearly how much better Inhale sustains compared to Dark Deal + Persistence passive. I’m not even including Combustion and Battle Roar, which will actually never leave me below 50% resources 🤣

Turtle_Bot · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot
So when you have a skill that is outsustaining Dark Deal and Persistence passive while blocking and casting abilities, while also being a damage ability itself, then the question is this:

What is stopping a DK from dropping Tri Pots in favor of Spell + Physical resistance pots, or Heroism pots? What's stopping them from running Sugar Skulls to amplify their damage even further? My Sorc is already running Sugar Skulls, but it's pretty clear I'm not gonna be able to compete with Inhale lol..

If they have Ardent, no need for heroism pots since they get minor heroism from ash cloud (that's also a HoT).
Resistance pots won't make a difference with how easy it is to stack to res cap already, although it might be nice against breach.

TBH, where I see DK going with pots if they do drop tri-pots will be immo pots and detect pots (pure immo or pure detect or a mix of the 2 with a 3rd other effect, but imo most players who try out sugar skulls will still need to use tri-pots (remember, most players aren't that good at the game, so even with the new inhale, I doubt many will actually be able to take advantage of it to it's full extent). Heck, even myself, an above average player, but definitely not top 1%, still prefers to over sustain on initial build creation and work back down to a slightly higher sustain value on all my builds as I prefer being able to cast abilities or perform combat actions (roll, block, sprint, etc.) rather than frequently stopping to heavy attack for extra sustain, since with my ping that gets me killed, especially outnumbered.

Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing the issue here and agree it's likely going to need some adjustments if the other classes are not brought up to this level, but I would rather everyone have near infinite sustain to keep fighting/pressing buttons, than to go through U41 hardened ward 2.0, but this time it comes with corrosive.

MXVIIDREAM · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

https://youtu.be/I9XDxP5e__s

I'll just post this clip here for everyone to watch and decide. I did a little sustain test with Inhale only. My stats were:

21060 mag, 24342 stam, 714 magicka regen, 896 stamina regen

I did not use tri pots for this test. My sustain came purely from Inhale and some cost reduction passives from Dark Magic. I held block and casted abilities while my friend was hammering on me throughout the test. Watch how little no trouble I had with my sustain lol.

Anybody saying this is comparable to Dark Deal or Siphoning Attacks are being disingenuous, period.

I just watched this one 😂 so you ran them down to when it would be at its absolute strongest peak (it won’t be there most of the time) then you had someone spam you with a weak skill and constantly healed through it while doing nothing to drain stam, why didn’t you have him cc you and break it ? Because again, that would have shown it being used accurately and your bias won’t allow that

I think the conclusion is that your class must be near the end of this refresh and the jealousy has crept in and you’re trying to ruin it for everyone else with these bias tests

It’s like fighting someone but only when you have 500 ult on balorgs yeah great it’s strong at its peak but that’s not how it functions 99% of the time or in combat

hoangdz · January 20

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

https://youtu.be/I9XDxP5e__s

I'll just post this clip here for everyone to watch and decide. I did a little sustain test with Inhale only. My stats were:

21060 mag, 24342 stam, 714 magicka regen, 896 stamina regen

I did not use tri pots for this test. My sustain came purely from Inhale and some cost reduction passives from Dark Magic. I held block and casted abilities while my friend was hammering on me throughout the test. Watch how little no trouble I had with my sustain lol.

Anybody saying this is comparable to Dark Deal or Siphoning Attacks are being disingenuous, period.

I just watched this one 😂 so you ran them down to when it would be at its absolute strongest peak (it won’t be there most of the time) then you had someone spam you with a weak skill and constantly healed through it while doing nothing to drain stam, why didn’t you have him cc you and break it ? Because again, that would have shown it being used accurately and your bias won’t allow that

I think the conclusion is that your class must be near the end of this refresh and the jealousy has crept in and you’re trying to ruin it for everyone else with these bias tests

It’s like fighting someone but only when you have 500 ult on balorgs yeah great it’s strong at its peak but that’s not how it functions 99% of the time or in combat

That's the point of the test, to test how much sustain you get when at low resources, which is what usually happens when you run low regen.

Normal scenarios: Low regen > you gas out faster

With Inhale: Low regen > your resources get low > you are still fine because Inhale is strongest when you're low

This is why I stayed at low resources, because that's where Inhale is strongest. Why would I test Inhale at full resources where it's weakest???

Answer me this question: Why do people run low recovery with Dark Deal.

MXVIIDREAM · January 20

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot
So when you have a skill that is outsustaining Dark Deal and Persistence passive while blocking and casting abilities, while also being a damage ability itself, then the question is this:

What is stopping a DK from dropping Tri Pots in favor of Spell + Physical resistance pots, or Heroism pots? What's stopping them from running Sugar Skulls to amplify their damage even further? My Sorc is already running Sugar Skulls, but it's pretty clear I'm not gonna be able to compete with Inhale lol..

If they have Ardent, no need for heroism pots since they get minor heroism from ash cloud (that's also a HoT).
Resistance pots won't make a difference with how easy it is to stack to res cap already, although it might be nice against breach.

TBH, where I see DK going with pots if they do drop tri-pots will be immo pots and detect pots (pure immo or pure detect or a mix of the 2 with a 3rd other effect, but imo most players who try out sugar skulls will still need to use tri-pots (remember, most players aren't that good at the game, so even with the new inhale, I doubt many will actually be able to take advantage of it to it's full extent). Heck, even myself, an above average player, but definitely not top 1%, still prefers to over sustain on initial build creation and work back down to a slightly higher sustain value on all my builds as I prefer being able to cast abilities or perform combat actions (roll, block, sprint, etc.) rather than frequently stopping to heavy attack for extra sustain, since with my ping that gets me killed, especially outnumbered.

Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing the issue here and agree it's likely going to need some adjustments if the other classes are not brought up to this level, but I would rather everyone have near infinite sustain to keep fighting/pressing buttons, than to go through U41 hardened ward 2.0, but this time it comes with corrosive.

With subclassing and the metas we have been seeing I’d much rather see classes with better sustain overall than getting nerfed before they’ve even gone properly live because let’s be honest nothings going to compete with these current subclassing builds at current see little to no point bring classes up in power for this refresh then constantly nerfing them until at least the entire sequence of classes have been refreshed then they can look at balance
I don’t think this skill is broken under normal conditions and I think it’s would be massively more beneficial to increase nbs siphoning skill templars passives and the base of dark deals return and make it uninterruptible than to gut skills before they’ve even even get live, you’re right 90% of players won’t be able to drop half the stuff talked about and to rely on this one skill for sustain, let alone when they’re getting cc’d in actual combat

hoangdz · January 20

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot
So when you have a skill that is outsustaining Dark Deal and Persistence passive while blocking and casting abilities, while also being a damage ability itself, then the question is this:

What is stopping a DK from dropping Tri Pots in favor of Spell + Physical resistance pots, or Heroism pots? What's stopping them from running Sugar Skulls to amplify their damage even further? My Sorc is already running Sugar Skulls, but it's pretty clear I'm not gonna be able to compete with Inhale lol..

If they have Ardent, no need for heroism pots since they get minor heroism from ash cloud (that's also a HoT).
Resistance pots won't make a difference with how easy it is to stack to res cap already, although it might be nice against breach.

TBH, where I see DK going with pots if they do drop tri-pots will be immo pots and detect pots (pure immo or pure detect or a mix of the 2 with a 3rd other effect, but imo most players who try out sugar skulls will still need to use tri-pots (remember, most players aren't that good at the game, so even with the new inhale, I doubt many will actually be able to take advantage of it to it's full extent). Heck, even myself, an above average player, but definitely not top 1%, still prefers to over sustain on initial build creation and work back down to a slightly higher sustain value on all my builds as I prefer being able to cast abilities or perform combat actions (roll, block, sprint, etc.) rather than frequently stopping to heavy attack for extra sustain, since with my ping that gets me killed, especially outnumbered.

Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing the issue here and agree it's likely going to need some adjustments if the other classes are not brought up to this level, but I would rather everyone have near infinite sustain to keep fighting/pressing buttons, than to go through U41 hardened ward 2.0, but this time it comes with corrosive.

Resistance pots will 100% make a difference though, especially if you are trying to run full damage. Getting 5.2k armor from pots means you don't need to use defensive traits or a defensive set. That allows the DK to still reach max resistances while wearing offensive jewelry traits and damage sets.

Take for example my current Sorc build in Blood Spawn/Essence Thief/Rally. Without Bloodspawn, I have 29254 spell resistance and 28528 physical resistance on my front bar, and 32530 spell resistance and 31804 physical resistance on my back bar with 3x Protective and Fortified CP:

If I had Inhale, I'd be able to run 3x Infused + Infused staff back bar and gain ~416 unbuffed weapon damage with higher uptime on the Berserker glyph. My resistances are now 30964 spell and 30238 physical, but that's going to be for front bar AND back bar. I would end up with much more damage, while being tankier on the front bar and only slightly less tankier on the back bar:

This is the kind of stat changes you can make when a skill takes care of sustain so well. It goes beyond the simple description on the tooltip.

I agree that not all players can do this, but that was also the argument for Hardened Ward. I never had trouble vs most Hardened Ward users, but that doesn't mean Hardened Ward was fine.

Major_Mangle · January 20

I personally like the overall DK rework ZOS has done, it makes the class interesting and creates some hype to play a pure class again, but I do agree with OP to a degree. Sustain these days is so bloated and easy to come by and in the grand scheme of things, sustain isn´t something any spec or class really needs more of, especially in PvP settings where champion points are enabled. I think the design itself around inhale can stay, but maybe tweak numbers a bit or have the resource return scale poorly in 1v1 situations, but better vs the more targets you hit.

MXVIIDREAM · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot
So when you have a skill that is outsustaining Dark Deal and Persistence passive while blocking and casting abilities, while also being a damage ability itself, then the question is this:

What is stopping a DK from dropping Tri Pots in favor of Spell + Physical resistance pots, or Heroism pots? What's stopping them from running Sugar Skulls to amplify their damage even further? My Sorc is already running Sugar Skulls, but it's pretty clear I'm not gonna be able to compete with Inhale lol..

If they have Ardent, no need for heroism pots since they get minor heroism from ash cloud (that's also a HoT).
Resistance pots won't make a difference with how easy it is to stack to res cap already, although it might be nice against breach.

TBH, where I see DK going with pots if they do drop tri-pots will be immo pots and detect pots (pure immo or pure detect or a mix of the 2 with a 3rd other effect, but imo most players who try out sugar skulls will still need to use tri-pots (remember, most players aren't that good at the game, so even with the new inhale, I doubt many will actually be able to take advantage of it to it's full extent). Heck, even myself, an above average player, but definitely not top 1%, still prefers to over sustain on initial build creation and work back down to a slightly higher sustain value on all my builds as I prefer being able to cast abilities or perform combat actions (roll, block, sprint, etc.) rather than frequently stopping to heavy attack for extra sustain, since with my ping that gets me killed, especially outnumbered.

Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing the issue here and agree it's likely going to need some adjustments if the other classes are not brought up to this level, but I would rather everyone have near infinite sustain to keep fighting/pressing buttons, than to go through U41 hardened ward 2.0, but this time it comes with corrosive.

Resistance pots will 100% make a difference though, especially if you are trying to run full damage. Getting 5.2k armor from pots means you don't need to use defensive traits or a defensive set. That allows the DK to still reach max resistances while wearing offensive jewelry traits and damage sets.

Take for example my current Sorc build in Blood Spawn/Essence Thief/Rally. Without Bloodspawn, I have 29254 spell resistance and 28528 physical resistance on my front bar, and 32530 spell resistance and 31804 physical resistance on my back bar with 3x Protective and Fortified CP:

If I had Inhale, I'd be able to run 3x Infused + Infused staff back bar and gain ~416 unbuffed weapon damage with higher uptime on the Berserker glyph. My resistances are now 30964 spell and 30238 physical, but that's going to be for front bar AND back bar. I would end up with much more damage, while being tankier on the front bar and only slightly less tankier on the back bar:

This is the kind of stat changes you can make when a skill takes care of sustain so well. It goes beyond the simple description on the tooltip.

I agree that not all players can do this, but that was also the argument for Hardened Ward. I never had trouble vs most Hardened Ward users, but that doesn't mean Hardened Ward was fine.

While I understand your point you need to realise that would put the class running it at about 700 recovery for their primary resource, while I don’t disagree there is high level players that can play with next to no level of recovery of their primary resource on all classes you’re talking about high level players probably top 1-5% players on their platform if you build the game around those players the other 95% of players won’t even attempt to go into PvP

I also have to point out the set up you shown as a base in the second picture is pretty similar to what the sub class meta is in PvP except most of them stack more resist higher crit ontop of having 39k health thanks to subclassing

Pure classes are being reworked to try compete and be viable against subclasses not get released significantly weaker

xylena · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

Yea very comparable lmao...

And you just died because you cast an empty gcd while low and under threat from multiples. Maybe it's overtuned in the specific context of being low, but it's not without risk.

The interaction with perma-block will be a problem but that's because perma-block is already a problem, on every spec, always has been, and doesn't get nearly enough hate in PvP.

Existing meta animal assassins already have seemingly infinite resources without subclassing Dark Magic or Siphoning. Does anyone even do that? Who cares if DK joins in.

MXVIIDREAM · January 20

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Yea very comparable lmao...

And you just died because you cast an empty gcd while low and under threat from multiples. Maybe it's overtuned in the specific context of being low, but it's not without risk.

The interaction with perma-block will be a problem but that's because perma-block is already a problem, on every spec, always has been, and doesn't get nearly enough hate in PvP.

Existing meta animal assassins already have seemingly infinite resources without subclassing Dark Magic or Siphoning. Does anyone even do that? Who cares if DK joins in.

Didn’t get ccds or have to roll or dodge I get that it appears strong at low, but it’ll be next to useless at 40% and over so I don’t think it’s overtuned at all really especially given the over classes and like you say seemingly infinite sustain meta for other classes
And it’s not like dk joining in it’s just dk finally getting on the same page 😂

hoangdz · January 20

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot
So when you have a skill that is outsustaining Dark Deal and Persistence passive while blocking and casting abilities, while also being a damage ability itself, then the question is this:

What is stopping a DK from dropping Tri Pots in favor of Spell + Physical resistance pots, or Heroism pots? What's stopping them from running Sugar Skulls to amplify their damage even further? My Sorc is already running Sugar Skulls, but it's pretty clear I'm not gonna be able to compete with Inhale lol..

If they have Ardent, no need for heroism pots since they get minor heroism from ash cloud (that's also a HoT).
Resistance pots won't make a difference with how easy it is to stack to res cap already, although it might be nice against breach.

TBH, where I see DK going with pots if they do drop tri-pots will be immo pots and detect pots (pure immo or pure detect or a mix of the 2 with a 3rd other effect, but imo most players who try out sugar skulls will still need to use tri-pots (remember, most players aren't that good at the game, so even with the new inhale, I doubt many will actually be able to take advantage of it to it's full extent). Heck, even myself, an above average player, but definitely not top 1%, still prefers to over sustain on initial build creation and work back down to a slightly higher sustain value on all my builds as I prefer being able to cast abilities or perform combat actions (roll, block, sprint, etc.) rather than frequently stopping to heavy attack for extra sustain, since with my ping that gets me killed, especially outnumbered.

Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing the issue here and agree it's likely going to need some adjustments if the other classes are not brought up to this level, but I would rather everyone have near infinite sustain to keep fighting/pressing buttons, than to go through U41 hardened ward 2.0, but this time it comes with corrosive.

Resistance pots will 100% make a difference though, especially if you are trying to run full damage. Getting 5.2k armor from pots means you don't need to use defensive traits or a defensive set. That allows the DK to still reach max resistances while wearing offensive jewelry traits and damage sets.

Take for example my current Sorc build in Blood Spawn/Essence Thief/Rally. Without Bloodspawn, I have 29254 spell resistance and 28528 physical resistance on my front bar, and 32530 spell resistance and 31804 physical resistance on my back bar with 3x Protective and Fortified CP:

If I had Inhale, I'd be able to run 3x Infused + Infused staff back bar and gain ~416 unbuffed weapon damage with higher uptime on the Berserker glyph. My resistances are now 30964 spell and 30238 physical, but that's going to be for front bar AND back bar. I would end up with much more damage, while being tankier on the front bar and only slightly less tankier on the back bar:

This is the kind of stat changes you can make when a skill takes care of sustain so well. It goes beyond the simple description on the tooltip.

I agree that not all players can do this, but that was also the argument for Hardened Ward. I never had trouble vs most Hardened Ward users, but that doesn't mean Hardened Ward was fine.

While I understand your point you need to realise that would put the class running it at about 700 recovery for their primary resource, while I don’t disagree there is high level players that can play with next to no level of recovery of their primary resource on all classes you’re talking about high level players probably top 1-5% players on their platform if you build the game around those players the other 95% of players won’t even attempt to go into PvP

I also have to point out the set up you shown as a base in the second picture is pretty similar to what the sub class meta is in PvP except most of them stack more resist higher crit ontop of having 39k health thanks to subclassing

Pure classes are being reworked to try compete and be viable against subclasses not get released significantly weaker

I understand your point, but keep in mind I am strictly comparing Inhale only. I haven't touched Combustion or Battle Roar yet. Combustion on PTS procs every 1s when you apply Burning, and with new Corrosive, people are going to run Charged which increases the proc chance a lot. Then you also have Battle Roar as well, and I'm sure people are going to run some sort of ulti gen to use Corrosive more often.

Trust me, PTS DK is so easy to sustain with low recovery. You legitimately cannot kill them if you don't have Onslaught or Corrosive yourself because they are running around with 40-45k resistances, 37-38k max HP, and still pulling 5k DPS lol. I'm not pulling these numbers out of my a**, I have CMX data to prove that.

hoangdz · January 20

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Yea very comparable lmao...

And you just died because you cast an empty gcd while low and under threat from multiples. Maybe it's overtuned in the specific context of being low, but it's not without risk.

The interaction with perma-block will be a problem but that's because perma-block is already a problem, on every spec, always has been, and doesn't get nearly enough hate in PvP.

Existing meta animal assassins already have seemingly infinite resources without subclassing Dark Magic or Siphoning. Does anyone even do that? Who cares if DK joins in.

Don’t be disingenuous. That scenario you gave would play out worse with Dark Deal than with Inhale. If I had dirt dry stam and enough mag to cast 1 Dark Deal, I’d have dirt dry mag and gained 3.6k stam. I’d have no mag to cast a burst heal. But you know what’s different if I had Inhale? I’d gain BOTH resources back after 4 seconds. I literally have video tests to prove that..

And no, Xylena, meta Animal/Assassin builds still require building 1.5k MINIMUM recovery with Netch/Rune. That means running Orzoga or a recovery glyph instead of Sugar Skull, which provides an effective 400 weapon damage. Inhale will allow a DK to forgo sustain food/glyphs completely and stack every thing into defense/damage. Heck, it will allow you to drop Tri Pots and run Resistance pots, which will also allow you to build even more damage via dropping defensive traits.

If you don’t take into account of these things, it will be hard to make a fair comparison between these abilities . The ability to run more damage via food/traits don’t show up on the skill tooltip, but it is real and you can already see it on the live server with Dark Deal. Inhale is just a better Dark Deal right now, which means the same principle applies for DK.

MXVIIDREAM · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Yea very comparable lmao...

And you just died because you cast an empty gcd while low and under threat from multiples. Maybe it's overtuned in the specific context of being low, but it's not without risk.

The interaction with perma-block will be a problem but that's because perma-block is already a problem, on every spec, always has been, and doesn't get nearly enough hate in PvP.

Existing meta animal assassins already have seemingly infinite resources without subclassing Dark Magic or Siphoning. Does anyone even do that? Who cares if DK joins in.

Don’t be disingenuous. That scenario you gave would play out worse with Dark Deal than with Inhale. If I had dirt dry stam and enough mag to cast 1 Dark Deal, I’d have dirt dry mag and gained 3.6k stam. I’d have no mag to cast a burst heal. But you know what’s different if I had Inhale? I’d gain BOTH resources back after 4 seconds. I literally have video tests to prove that..

And no, Xylena, meta Animal/Assassin builds still require building 1.5k MINIMUM recovery with Netch/Rune. That means running Orzoga or a recovery glyph instead of Sugar Skull, which provides an effective 400 weapon damage. Inhale will allow a DK to forgo sustain food/glyphs completely and stack every thing into defense/damage. Heck, it will allow you to drop Tri Pots and run Resistance pots, which will also allow you to build even more damage via dropping defensive traits.

If you don’t take into account of these things, it will be hard to make a fair comparison between these abilities . The ability to run more damage via food/traits don’t show up on the skill tooltip, but it is real and you can already see it on the live server with Dark Deal. Inhale is just a better Dark Deal right now, which means the same principle applies for DK.

This thread is so dead, it’s literally you trying to argue against everyone else whilst your own videos reflect a significant bias 😂
You do realise this is a dk class refresh and sorc will get their turn, suppose you’re super against dark deal getting made better aswell and any sorc skills getting made better? Suppose they should all be nerfed aswell?

xylena · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

Don’t be disingenuous.

I’d have no mag to cast a burst heal.

Uh. Have you ever actually used Dark Deal or played StamSorc?

You can already run Sugar Skulls on Dark Magic / Storm Calling / X, or Assassin / Siphoning / X. Either of these are as good as the reworked DK, but people don't do that. They run regen food on animal assassins then instakill you with busted combos and proc sets.

Also know that 5k pressure dps wasn't enough on the subclass PTS, let alone now. So if you want to put a dent in the turtle-burst meta, that number needs to go up significantly. It'll make some players cry because they can't turtle and reset forever, but pressure is healthy for the game.

hoangdz · January 20

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Don’t be disingenuous.

I’d have no mag to cast a burst heal.

Uh. Have you ever actually used Dark Deal or played StamSorc?

You can already run Sugar Skulls on Dark Magic / Storm Calling / X, or Assassin / Siphoning / X. Either of these are as good as the reworked DK, but people don't do that. They run regen food on animal assassins then instakill you with busted combos and proc sets.

Also know that 5k pressure dps wasn't enough on the subclass PTS, let alone now. So if you want to put a dent in the turtle-burst meta, that number needs to go up significantly. It'll make some players cry because they can't turtle and reset forever, but pressure is healthy for the game.

I’m StaticWave. Asking me if I play stamsorc or not is redundant. I’m literally telling you how it is on PTS.

hoangdz · January 20

@xylena_lazarow And yes, I already run Sugar Skull on Stamsorc, for 2 years, actually. So when it comes to this specific issue, I think I have enough experience to point out how much better Inhale is compared to Dark Deal.

hoangdz · January 20

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Yea very comparable lmao...

And you just died because you cast an empty gcd while low and under threat from multiples. Maybe it's overtuned in the specific context of being low, but it's not without risk.

The interaction with perma-block will be a problem but that's because perma-block is already a problem, on every spec, always has been, and doesn't get nearly enough hate in PvP.

Existing meta animal assassins already have seemingly infinite resources without subclassing Dark Magic or Siphoning. Does anyone even do that? Who cares if DK joins in.

Don’t be disingenuous. That scenario you gave would play out worse with Dark Deal than with Inhale. If I had dirt dry stam and enough mag to cast 1 Dark Deal, I’d have dirt dry mag and gained 3.6k stam. I’d have no mag to cast a burst heal. But you know what’s different if I had Inhale? I’d gain BOTH resources back after 4 seconds. I literally have video tests to prove that..

And no, Xylena, meta Animal/Assassin builds still require building 1.5k MINIMUM recovery with Netch/Rune. That means running Orzoga or a recovery glyph instead of Sugar Skull, which provides an effective 400 weapon damage. Inhale will allow a DK to forgo sustain food/glyphs completely and stack every thing into defense/damage. Heck, it will allow you to drop Tri Pots and run Resistance pots, which will also allow you to build even more damage via dropping defensive traits.

If you don’t take into account of these things, it will be hard to make a fair comparison between these abilities . The ability to run more damage via food/traits don’t show up on the skill tooltip, but it is real and you can already see it on the live server with Dark Deal. Inhale is just a better Dark Deal right now, which means the same principle applies for DK.

This thread is so dead, it’s literally you trying to argue against everyone else whilst your own videos reflect a significant bias 😂
You do realise this is a dk class refresh and sorc will get their turn, suppose you’re super against dark deal getting made better aswell and any sorc skills getting made better? Suppose they should all be nerfed aswell?

If Dark Deal overperforms, I will ask for it to be nerfed as well, just like when I asked for Ward to be nerfed. I’m willing to nerf my own class if it means balance. You clearly aren’t lol.

xylena · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

I’m StaticWave. Asking me if I play stamsorc or not is redundant.

My bad, thought I was talking to some DK main.

I think you undervalue the burst heal component of DD, I'm sure you fully abuse being able to spam DD with impunity while you're CC immune. HOF doesn't keep you alive while refilling your resource bar, that's uniquely powerful to DD, which makes it seem balanced with HOF.

If you're right and HOF is that busted, it won't push DK to the top, it'll get subclassed as an overloaded delayed damage source on turtle-burst assassin builds. So if they're not ready to nerf animal assassins, who cares if DK joins in. Can't break what's already broken.

MincMincMinc · January 20

Decimus wrote: »

No, it doesn't... You can achieve the very same results with Siphoning Attacks or Dark Deal/Conversion (if you want to do the latter while blocking, just get Light Weaver passive from Restoring Light).

Inhale is a strong sustain skill as well now, I see nothing wrong with that.

If anything, they should introduce something similar to other classes too that are still missing sustain abilities and make them thematically different.

Itd be nice if darkdeal went back to its flat resource return. The overtime ruined the point of the skill and was a sad attempt at copying warden's netch.

Inhale needs to be adjusted BADLY. Any build is going to be able to permablock with this one skill. "Strong" is a vast understatement.

15% every 2s is insane though just some rough meta pvp numbers from one of my builds.
31khp == 4650hp == 2325hpPvP
16.5kmag == 2475 return/2s
22.2kstam == 3330 return/2s
In total over 3 ticks thats 24390 resources from paying 3370

Even darkdeal trades 2700 for 8560 combined resources over that same 4s period. Except darkdeal is bashable and leaves you open, not to mention on a janky long cast time. Oh and I can't maintain permablock with darkdeal.