The dizzy animation does feel far less weighty, but I think they were going for more of a samurai sword quick slicing animation. Which fits well with a katana motif.......but not really any other sword. Not to mention it doesn't go well with any Axe or Maul skin. That being said I would rather a more pronounced sound effect than the over the top particle trailing effect that blocks my vision.

Even damage wise nothing feels weighty. The original 2h kit was supposed to have the longer dizzy cast with a big hit. You were supposed to CHUNK your enemy's healthbar since the skill did not pair well with timed combos. So this was supposed to be the more meathead aimed skill movement playstyle instead of the generic proc time 4 skills together combo. Now its just a generic spammable that is not even in the top 3 for damage. I would choose Surprise>B4B>jabs before I would say dizzy is competitive. With other class reworks like we see with DK I'm sure leaving dizzy like this will only lower it on the spammable totem pole.

For pvp you can't just rely on dizzy and normally have to pair it with some other generic proc combo except you still have the unreliable cast time struggles.......... Maybe a rework to BRP 2h dizzy could bring back more damage on the initial hit or bonus damage every 3s(kinda like surprise attack). No reason for the aoe hits when there are other better aoe 2h skills like master 2h carve.

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Other 2h skills review

AltmerGF wrote: »

Just for a bit of dissent on this...I actually really like that about the new animations and hope they don't change it. For the first time I actually feel like my character comes off as a skilled swordsman and not someone swinging a wiffle bat.

Yeah but even skilled swordsmans can't handle two-handeds like feathers.

AltmerGF wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

AltmerGF wrote: »

Just for a bit of dissent on this...I actually really like that about the new animations and hope they don't change it. For the first time I actually feel like my character comes off as a skilled swordsman and not someone swinging a wiffle bat.

Yeah but even skilled swordsmans can't handle two-handeds like feathers.

They generally can't leap 40 feet in one bound to slam into their enemies or send people flying with one uppercut either but here we are.

I mean I don't disagree with that but I don't understand how making it floaty and weightless makes your swordsman feel more masterful. I feel like that should be based in fluidity of movement, utilizing the weight instead of removing it entirely.

It's kinda like if they did the inverse for duel-wield. Hell, even one hand and shield feels more weighty than the new two handed anims now.

AltmerGF wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

AltmerGF wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

AltmerGF wrote: »

Just for a bit of dissent on this...I actually really like that about the new animations and hope they don't change it. For the first time I actually feel like my character comes off as a skilled swordsman and not someone swinging a wiffle bat.

Yeah but even skilled swordsmans can't handle two-handeds like feathers.

They generally can't leap 40 feet in one bound to slam into their enemies or send people flying with one uppercut either but here we are.

I mean I don't disagree with that but I don't understand how making it floaty and weightless makes your swordsman feel more masterful. I feel like that should be based in fluidity of movement, utilizing the weight instead of removing it entirely.

It's kinda like if they did the inverse for duel-wield. Hell, even one hand and shield feels more weighty than the new two handed anims now.

Well, floaty and weightless aren't even the terms I'd use for them having fiddled around with a rotation with them. I'd actually say they feel less floaty than the old ones - there's a satisfying crunch and impact to them that was missing before, and the fact that they have a few different stances they cycle between with each cast makes them feel much more fluid.

I wouldn't be opposed to tweaking them somewhat to add more heft, but I dearly hope they don't end up just reverting them back to the boring old ones again because the new animations just felt so good to use.

Fair enough. Even though I'm of the opinion that the new anims look too black deserty and gross for my taste, I would honestly concede if the VFX and animations get tweaked slightly for heft(not tweaked so much that they have to do a lot more work, just enough to add heft)

And by no means was I saying the old animations were better, just that I preferred the heft. Because thematically, they're still pretty inconsistent in general with different weapon types as someone else I talked to brought up. (Slashes for long-hammers, yeah that totally makes sense. Or slashes for maces in one handed and shield flurry for... anything but daggers)

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

AltmerGF wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

AltmerGF wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

AltmerGF wrote: »

Just for a bit of dissent on this...I actually really like that about the new animations and hope they don't change it. For the first time I actually feel like my character comes off as a skilled swordsman and not someone swinging a wiffle bat.

Yeah but even skilled swordsmans can't handle two-handeds like feathers.

They generally can't leap 40 feet in one bound to slam into their enemies or send people flying with one uppercut either but here we are.

I mean I don't disagree with that but I don't understand how making it floaty and weightless makes your swordsman feel more masterful. I feel like that should be based in fluidity of movement, utilizing the weight instead of removing it entirely.

It's kinda like if they did the inverse for duel-wield. Hell, even one hand and shield feels more weighty than the new two handed anims now.

Well, floaty and weightless aren't even the terms I'd use for them having fiddled around with a rotation with them. I'd actually say they feel less floaty than the old ones - there's a satisfying crunch and impact to them that was missing before, and the fact that they have a few different stances they cycle between with each cast makes them feel much more fluid.

I wouldn't be opposed to tweaking them somewhat to add more heft, but I dearly hope they don't end up just reverting them back to the boring old ones again because the new animations just felt so good to use.

Fair enough. Even though I'm of the opinion that the new anims look too black deserty and gross for my taste, I would honestly concede if the VFX and animations get tweaked slightly for heft(not tweaked so much that they have to do a lot more work, just enough to add heft)

And by no means was I saying the old animations were better, just that I preferred the heft. Because thematically, they're still pretty inconsistent in general with different weapon types as someone else I talked to brought up. (Slashes for long-hammers, yeah that totally makes sense. Or slashes for maces in one handed and shield flurry for... anything but daggers)

IMO i'd want to see them change the sound first, because thats where the emphasis is really missing on most of the skills.

I only see onslaught and reverse slash being bad animation wise for heft. The new onslaught doesnt do the quick BONK over the top like it should. Same goes for reverse slash where now it doesnt do the spin around slam dunk on the opponent's head.

True, the reverse slash is also my most disappointing change. And that flip added so much character to it as well. It also feels less momentum-forward, like ya said.

I mean I don't disagree with that but I don't understand how making it floaty and weightless makes your swordsman feel more masterful. I feel like that should be based in fluidity of movement, utilizing the weight instead of removing it entirely.

It's kinda like if they did the inverse for duel-wield. Hell, even one hand and shield feels more weighty than the new two handed anims now.

As someone who has a decent amount of real longsword training, I can share my take with you:

Uppercut:
Original - Felt like a barbarian swinging a big stick. Definitely not fitting for a sword, and feels slightly clunky for an axe for that matter. Would be a strike someone untrained might do with a maul. There's definitely no need for wide swings and big weight behind each hit to inflict serious wounds. If anything, that's wasted energy.
New - Definitely more fitting for a sword. Feels more trained - there's a bit of technique there. The strike starts a (somewhat) natural guard, and having the weapon change it's starting point in between hits is also natural. The guard where the weapon starts the left side tho' looks very weird.

Also on the 1st strike, the whole idea of that guard ( called an Ochs guard - where the weapon is held high, a bit to the side, pointing to the enemy ) makes very little sense with an axe or mace. The whole idea is to defend against high strikes and also maintain a threat with the possibility of thrusting, which, well, you can't with an axe or club.

Overall: New > Old

Charging Strike:
Original - Definitely the cut of an untrained fighter. Hits / Cuts right in the middle of the vertical axis are the easiest to block / riposte against. Felt like the most telegraphed, untrained unga bunga type strike someone could make.
New - The cut is somewhat clean. The random spinning is unrealistic, and one other thing that stands out as super unnatural is the way the character ends up holding the weapon in one hand after the cut.

Overall: Both are equally unrealistic. One depicts a peasant that never touched a real weapon, and trained with the woodcutting axe at the farm dreaming of becoming an adventurer. The other looks very anime main character like. So i'll take the new one since it's a bit more fluid, just from a design PoV.

Brawler:
Old: Doing a wide swing with only one hand is definitely not something you'd expect to have a lot of force behind. The animation is rather against the purpose of the skill from a realistic PoV.
New: It's literally the same, but flashier.

Overall: Rather equal. I prefer the new one since I can see my actual hitbox better.

Execute:
Old: Spinning attacks make no sense to me. On top of that, it's a spinning, downward strike on the middle of the vertical axis. If you would have a list of what NOT to do, this one meets all the checkmarks.
New: The wind up animation is REALLY weird. The way the character is holding the weapon is close to something you'd expect to see from a saber / side sword ( or 1-handed blades ) when you try to parry and riposte, so holding the weapon with just 1 hand makes 0 sense in this scenario. It just looks awkward and I feel like my character is trying to T-pose before striking. BUT the cut itself is pretty clean. + no random dirt from swinging so wide that I smash the ground with my weapon, which is a big plus.

Overall: New >> old

Do the new animation make you look like someone that actually knows what they're doing? A little bit, but definitely more than the old ones.

evLRise wrote: »

I mean I don't disagree with that but I don't understand how making it floaty and weightless makes your swordsman feel more masterful. I feel like that should be based in fluidity of movement, utilizing the weight instead of removing it entirely.

It's kinda like if they did the inverse for duel-wield. Hell, even one hand and shield feels more weighty than the new two handed anims now.

As someone who has a decent amount of real longsword training, I can share my take with you:

Uppercut:
Original - Felt like a barbarian swinging a big stick. Definitely not fitting for a sword, and feels slightly clunky for an axe for that matter. Would be a strike someone untrained might do with a maul. There's definitely no need for wide swings and big weight behind each hit to inflict serious wounds. If anything, that's wasted energy.
New - Definitely more fitting for a sword. Feels more trained - there's a bit of technique there. The strike starts a (somewhat) natural guard, and having the weapon change it's starting point in between hits is also natural. The guard where the weapon starts the left side tho' looks very weird.

Also on the 1st strike, the whole idea of that guard ( called an Ochs guard - where the weapon is held high, a bit to the side, pointing to the enemy ) makes very little sense with an axe or mace. The whole idea is to defend against high strikes and also maintain a threat with the possibility of thrusting, which, well, you can't with an axe or club.

Overall: New > Old

Charging Strike:
Original - Definitely the cut of an untrained fighter. Hits / Cuts right in the middle of the vertical axis are the easiest to block / riposte against. Felt like the most telegraphed, untrained unga bunga type strike someone could make.
New - The cut is somewhat clean. The random spinning is unrealistic, and one other thing that stands out as super unnatural is the way the character ends up holding the weapon in one hand after the cut.

Overall: Both are equally unrealistic. One depicts a peasant that never touched a real weapon, and trained with the woodcutting axe at the farm dreaming of becoming an adventurer. The other looks very anime main character like. So i'll take the new one since it's a bit more fluid, just from a design PoV.

Brawler:
Old: Doing a wide swing with only one hand is definitely not something you'd expect to have a lot of force behind. The animation is rather against the purpose of the skill from a realistic PoV.
New: It's literally the same, but flashier.

Overall: Rather equal. I prefer the new one since I can see my actual hitbox better.

Execute:
Old: Spinning attacks make no sense to me. On top of that, it's a spinning, downward strike on the middle of the vertical axis. If you would have a list of what NOT to do, this one meets all the checkmarks.
New: The wind up animation is REALLY weird. The way the character is holding the weapon is close to something you'd expect to see from a saber / side sword ( or 1-handed blades ) when you try to parry and riposte, so holding the weapon with just 1 hand makes 0 sense in this scenario. It just looks awkward and I feel like my character is trying to T-pose before striking. BUT the cut itself is pretty clean. + no random dirt from swinging so wide that I smash the ground with my weapon, which is a big plus.

Overall: New >> old

Do the new animation make you look like someone that actually knows what they're doing? A little bit, but definitely more than the old ones.

To be fair, I think that the old two-handed was more barbarian specific. It was meant to feel a little slower and aggressive, not necessarily as smart.

Do you think that the heft specifically is better or worse though?

I'm inclined to agree with folks who like the new animations.

The old ones made me feel like a caveman with a club. The new ones -actually- make it look like my character has experience with the weapon they're using. In particular I really like the Critical Charge and Uppercut animations, even though I think every single one is an improvement.

Baracuta90 wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with folks who like the new animations.

The old ones made me feel like a caveman with a club. The new ones -actually- make it look like my character has experience with the weapon they're using. In particular I really like the Critical Charge and Uppercut animations, even though I think every single one is an improvement.

Oh crit charge I can heavily agree with. They did a good job making it feel like you are flying at your target with the post process effects. However I doubt we will ever see it in pvp since the initial damage is very lack luster. It probably could use a good 20-30% damage buff on the initial hit.

The problem with designing the animations for swords is that it only works for 1/3 the motifs. Even then most two handed greatsword motifs in the game are basically big heavy clubs so probably half of that.

I much prefer the new animations. There's some clunkiness and overly fast acceleration that needs to be polished, but it's overall a big improvement.

The criticism I can agree with is the animations feeling more tailored for swords, specially for uppercut. As cool as it looks for the character to use the Ochs guard before striking, it makes little sense for greataxes or mauls.

How viable would it be for Uppercut alone to get different animations for greatswords, greataxes, and mauls?

Maybe maul can even get an animation that resembles the old one, like a big club being dragged across the ground before striking.

ZOS should definitely look into giving the different weapon subtypes different animations. It will be very needed for skills like one handed Puncture, or dual wield Flurry.

I think something zos is missing game design wise. We see alot of these new animations have crazy particles and distracting effects. I just want to point out a dynamic comparing particle effects vs character animations. When you are the user of a skill, YOUR character is always in the center focus of your screen and you pay attention to at all times. When we are having a battle of 50 people we are not paying attention to every persons character's arms flailing around, we are paying attention for certain specific particle animations that are important......which can tend to get hidden by nonimportant animations

For this reasoning I would suggest for basic generic spammable skills you heavily focus on the CHARACTER side of the animation and client side aspects like timing, screen shake, sound effects, character grunts. Thus keeping the flashy particles to a minimum and combat can be visually clear of random fluff.

Then for important events like ultimates and CC abilities, you would go crazy with particle animations that are pronounced so they can be easily identified in combat.

Proc sets throw a huge wrench into the mix because there are so many, combat at times dissolves into a moshpit of pokemon like effects going off everywhere. My rule of thumb is to simply not have inconsequential procs have ultimate level animations like we see with valkyn skoria being a copy of meteor.