New Telvar for Queueing Limit is too low

Danse_Mayhem · January 18

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

No way.

Disable being able to que out completely imo.

Same for cyrodil. Someone shouldn’t just be able to peace out to safety mid fight in a combat zone under any condition.

We are not asking to be able to teleport mid fight. We are asking for raising slightly the amount of telvar to be able to teleport when OUT OF COMBAT. 500 will do the trick.

Nope.

When IC was first a thing, there was no option to que out and it was great. Part of the experience of going on a sewer run, a boss run or even just playing, was also making a safe trip back to the alliance base. Or, using the sigil of imperial retreat (which can be used out of combat)

I say no que at all. In IC it kills the risk factor of farming telvar, and in PvP it currently allows people to just peace out and waste people’s time. Even out of combat, it’s a way to abuse transit times and get around the map faster.

Never used to be a thing far enough back, shouldn’t be now.

BergisMacBride · January 18

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Given how this thread has developed since I tagged Kevin, I just wanted to re-clarify that there's, imo, a distinct issue here of players asking to keep a convenient way to leave IC, to cover a variety of situations where someone just wants to leave and move on to a different activity, rather than trying to escape combat or bypass without tel-var loss.

I just want to make double sure that aspect of the issue is communicated back to the team and doesn't get lost in a larger discussion of the merits (or not) of getting rid of the telvar loss mechanic.

^ This exactly for me and many others.

While I wholeheartedly agree we need to fix the exploiting of current mechanics used to evade tel var loss when in combat, the way in which ZOS is doing this makes easy travel much more cumbersome. For me, this isn’t as much about any potential tel var loss as it is a hindrance to using my game time efficiently. As I said earlier, I’m fine with paying 50% of my tel var just to retain the ability to travel easily.

I really like the solution @ warm_blanket posted previously in this thread to:
1. Disable porting while in combat.
2. Allow it any other time but you lose 50% of your tel var unless you use a stone.

This would have close to the same net effect as death porting although I wouldn’t have to go to the trouble to search out mobs or the district boss.

Oblivion_Protocol · January 18

React wrote: »

Bolded the part of your statement that is completely untrue.

I earn the vast majority of my telvar by killing other players. Whether they're PVP players, farmers, questers - doesn't matter. I've actually been able to sustain my alchemy supplies for the entire lifespan of the game this way. It is one of the only reward systems in the entire game that provides a worthwhile reward, where the highest skill players are able to gain the most benefit. This is something seriously lacking across the entirety of the game. You SHOULD be able to earn the most gold, or get the best gear, the best cosmetics, etc by achieving the highest skill ceiling possible. It creates aspirational goals that are good for the long term health of the game.

Here is a screenshot from one of my old videos back when we had the 7 day telvar events - 1.8M telvar earned in 7 days, just by fighting other players.

I see. I guess I have a different idea of how it would work than others. The way I see it, you should still get Tel Var equal to half of what the other person is carrying. They just don’t lose anything. Therein lies the win-win. It still encourages PvP because you can get greater rewards from killing players, and it allows casuals to still farm with less fear, meaning the IC population goes up.

ESO_player123 · January 18

BergisMacBride wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Given how this thread has developed since I tagged Kevin, I just wanted to re-clarify that there's, imo, a distinct issue here of players asking to keep a convenient way to leave IC, to cover a variety of situations where someone just wants to leave and move on to a different activity, rather than trying to escape combat or bypass without tel-var loss.

I just want to make double sure that aspect of the issue is communicated back to the team and doesn't get lost in a larger discussion of the merits (or not) of getting rid of the telvar loss mechanic.

^ This exactly for me and many others.

While I wholeheartedly agree we need to fix the exploiting of current mechanics used to evade tel var loss when in combat, the way in which ZOS is doing this makes easy travel much more cumbersome. For me, this isn’t as much about any potential tel var loss as it is a hindrance to using my game time efficiently. As I said earlier, I’m fine with paying 50% of my tel var just to retain the ability to travel easily.

I really like the solution @ warm_blanket posted previously in this thread to:
1. Disable porting while in combat.
2. Allow it any other time but you lose 50% of your tel var unless you use a stone.

This would have close to the same net effect as death porting although I wouldn’t have to go to the trouble to search out mobs or the district boss.

I would prefer this solution too.

React · January 18

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

I see. I guess I have a different idea of how it would work than others. The way I see it, you should still get Tel Var equal to half of what the other person is carrying. They just don’t lose anything. Therein lies the win-win. It still encourages PvP because you can get greater rewards from killing players, and it allows casuals to still farm with less fear, meaning the IC population goes up.

Brother, that would literally just be an infinite telvar dupe lol.

What exactly would stop me from having my friend pull out 5 million telvar so that I can kill him and instantly generate 2.5 million telvar?

What would stop me from having my friend kill me after each time I did a loop of bosses, giving me an instant port back to base and giving him a free 32k+ telvar?

AzuraFan · January 18

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Given how this thread has developed since I tagged Kevin, I just wanted to re-clarify that there's, imo, a distinct issue here of players asking to keep a convenient way to leave IC, to cover a variety of situations where someone just wants to leave and move on to a different activity, rather than trying to escape combat or bypass tel-var loss.

I've never considered telvar loss when I've queued for Cyrodiil. I just want to leave IC. It never occured to me that I was supposed to make my way back to a safe spot so that those who enjoy PvP would have the chance to kill me and get half my telvar, and by porting out, I was depriving them of that. I'm not being facetious. I mean it. It demonstrates the different mindsets and reasons players have for going into IC.

I don't agree that when I'm in IC, I'm there to provide fodder for those who PvP and want telvar. I don't believe I owe them anything and would prefer the status quo, or ZOS just preventing people from porting out during combat. But to keep the peace, I'd be okay with the solution suggested above: that if you queue for Cyrodiil (outside of combat), you lose half your telvar. Alternatives would be just logging out or letting mobs kill me (because it's faster than having to go back to a safe spot). Anything would be better than an arbitrary telvar limit, especially one so low.

heimdall14_9 · January 18

warm_blanket wrote: »

Since @ZOS_Kevin is commenting I'll add my thoughts.

This change is a good attempt to address players dodging the risk component of farming telvar, but it has some holes.

There are reliable ways to leave IC without queuing for anything, so adjusting telvar limits won't help that much. At the same time it is nice that you can currently play in IC while waiting in a queue, and accepting it when it pops. I'd suggest a slightly different approach:

1) You cannot port out of IC while in combat
2) Porting out of IC (without using a sigil) costs half of your carried telvar ( to last known (PLAYER) you was in combat with) , the same as dying

This leaves players able to freely enter and leave IC for any purpose without touching the intended risk/reward for farming telvar.

Also since I'm at it it would be great if we could respawn at any IC district regardless of who owns its flag.

ok there we go 100% now that its specified who gets the 50% for TPing out

Oblivion_Protocol · January 19

React wrote: »

Brother, that would literally just be an infinite telvar dupe lol.

What exactly would stop me from having my friend pull out 5 million telvar so that I can kill him and instantly generate 2.5 million telvar?

What would stop me from having my friend kill me after each time I did a loop of bosses, giving me an instant port back to base and giving him a free 32k+ telvar?

Meh. Something needs to be figured out, because this current system is rough for a lot of people. I actually like IC as a small-scale PvP zone. But it’s dying faster than Cyro, and this change will only make things worse.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 19

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

React wrote: »

Bolded the part of your statement that is completely untrue.

I earn the vast majority of my telvar by killing other players. Whether they're PVP players, farmers, questers - doesn't matter. I've actually been able to sustain my alchemy supplies for the entire lifespan of the game this way. It is one of the only reward systems in the entire game that provides a worthwhile reward, where the highest skill players are able to gain the most benefit. This is something seriously lacking across the entirety of the game. You SHOULD be able to earn the most gold, or get the best gear, the best cosmetics, etc by achieving the highest skill ceiling possible. It creates aspirational goals that are good for the long term health of the game.

Here is a screenshot from one of my old videos back when we had the 7 day telvar events - 1.8M telvar earned in 7 days, just by fighting other players.

I see. I guess I have a different idea of how it would work than others. The way I see it, you should still get Tel Var equal to half of what the other person is carrying. They just don’t lose anything. Therein lies the win-win. It still encourages PvP because you can get greater rewards from killing players, and it allows casuals to still farm with less fear, meaning the IC population goes up.

That would just be putting even more Tel Var into existence, which would cause inflation. That's not a good solution.

imPDA · January 19

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

The way I see it, you should still get Tel Var equal to half of what the other person is carrying. They just don’t lose anything. Therein lies the win-win.

It is infinite Tel Var glitch

I will take my 3M TV and let my friend kill me. Now we have 4.5M combined. Repeat until you have enough to buy entire ZeniMax Media.

MincMincMinc · January 19

TBF they probably chose the 100 telvar because that is just under average amount on most people in IC. IC is deader than dead. It has been since the patch after it launched. IC really needs more incentives like the alchemy bag and hakeijos. I wonder if zos would ever consider rebalancing out the triglyphs a bit closer and then adding in duo glyphs for things like health+stam. With talks of the alchemy changes happening perhaps more doors open for pvp rewards. Half the potions are unbalanced or uncraftable because they require some niche dragon something from a dlc nobody plays.

Part of me thinks they could work opt-in pvp into the new nightmarket concept. Where every season they make a factional pve campaign where you can sign up for a temporary faction and compete for scoreboard. Each season they can make a new map. Eventually we have a good rotation of maps which IC could be in the loop. Then you make optional pvp with objectives that give bonuses to the pve side of things. For instance holding districts in IC give damage bonuses to mobs, increased telvar, and bonus factional scoreboard.

If you dont intermingle pve and pvp in some way, we never get cross pollination in the playerbase which helps keep people logged in.

AzuraFan · January 19

MincMincMinc wrote: »

If you dont intermingle pve and pvp in some way, we never get cross pollination in the playerbase which helps keep people logged in.

More intermingling of PvP with PvE would be the fastest way to keep me logged out.

MincMincMinc · January 19

AzuraFan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

If you dont intermingle pve and pvp in some way, we never get cross pollination in the playerbase which helps keep people logged in.

More intermingling of PvP with PvE would be the fastest way to keep me logged out.

You say "more" like there is any in the game. This is the reason you have the opt out system like every other mmo. You literally would not need to participate.

RedJohn_COF · January 19

First of all, I'm not the biggest IC fan. At least on Xbox EU I never see like a bar up in IC. So most of the time you go there its really just PvE.

The time I go to IC is just for a daily or weekly endeavor. The thought alone of having to go through the sewers to get out, unable to tp out really makes it much less attracting to me to go there than it already is.

I mean you get like 100 telvar by finishing a quest easily.

In my opinion what should be done rather is don't let people who are actively in combat tp out, regardless of the amount of telvar stones you have on yourself. I don't see what the issue is, tping out, when there is NOBODY around anyway.

Afterall its supposed to be a PvP zone and you should never be allowed to tp out when you are actively in combat.

imPDA · January 19

RedJohn_COF wrote: »

I don't see what the issue is, tping out, when there is NOBODY around anyway.

Well, without Cyro port, you need to make your way out first, so you have bigger chance to meet someone

It is not hard to hide in IC in order to get out of combat, and then tp, as you suggested, but while you move to the exit, you will meet someone and fight. This is again, tradeoff between accurate implementation of initial location design and complexity for current player base.

Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men (we are here), and weak men create hard times. I really hope we will see PvP become more complicated and more rewarding, so better PvP players would be involved in it again.

SummersetCitizen · January 19

imPDA wrote: »

Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men (we are here), and weak men create hard times. I really hope we will see PvP become more complicated and more rewarding, so better PvP players would be involved in it again.

Wild analogy for a declining video game. This isn’t “good times” and those who dislike the change aren’t “weak men”.

This isn’t a gym to come work out and get ready to fight a war. It is a largely PvE video game where most people don’t want to go into a PvP zone.

This change will make it even more sparsely populated, but the handful of people there will enjoy using 10k AP retreats or getting ganked at their base door.

AzuraFan · January 19

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You say "more" like there is any in the game.

Cyrodiil and IC are PvPvE zones. Your proposal is different in that you could opt-out of the PvP part, which would be new.

This is the reason you have the opt out system like every other mmo. You literally would not need to participate.

That could work. It would change the Night Market to a PvP zone, though (because you have to opt-out of the PvP part). I'm not sure that would fly this year, given that quite a few players are disappointed that there's no new PvE zone, and others are disappointed that there are no new dungeons. Another zone in another season would probably be better received.

Then you make optional pvp with objectives that give bonuses to the pve side of things.

PvP objectives should award PvP bonuses, not PvE bonuses. There's already too much forcing/encouraging people to do activities they don't enjoy to get stuff that matches what they do enjoy in this game to want more of it. Less of that, please.

I'd be okay with an opt-in or opt-out PvPvE zone that awarded bonuses to PvP for those who participate in the PvP part.

MincMincMinc · January 19

AzuraFan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You say "more" like there is any in the game.

Cyrodiil and IC are PvPvE zones. Your proposal is different in that you could opt-out of the PvP part, which would be new.

This is the reason you have the opt out system like every other mmo. You literally would not need to participate.

That could work. It would change the Night Market to a PvP zone, though (because you have to opt-out of the PvP part). I'm not sure that would fly this year, given that quite a few players are disappointed that there's no new PvE zone, and others are disappointed that there are no new dungeons. Another zone in another season would probably be better received.

Then you make optional pvp with objectives that give bonuses to the pve side of things.

PvP objectives should award PvP bonuses, not PvE bonuses. There's already too much forcing/encouraging people to do activities they don't enjoy to get stuff that matches what they do enjoy in this game to want more of it. Less of that, please.

I'd be okay with an opt-in or opt-out PvPvE zone that awarded bonuses to PvP for those who participate in the PvP part.

Yeah I mean rewards/bonuses could play into both pve and pvp at the same time, TBD. Honestly it may help zos to be looking at the two combats in parallel. Also the temporary campaign rotation concept may help them iterate better to learn what works and what doesn't.

We see them attempting to get involved with pvp atleast. Although anyone who knows pvp can see how out of touch they are. They simply do not have the experience watching how pvp functions in their own game. It may help to work on it more first hand and see what different designs do.

RedJohn_COF · January 19

imPDA wrote: »

RedJohn_COF wrote: »

I don't see what the issue is, tping out, when there is NOBODY around anyway.

Well, without Cyro port, you need to make your way out first, so you have bigger chance to meet someone It is not hard to hide in IC in order to get out of combat, and then tp, as you suggested, but while you move to the exit, you will meet someone and fight. This is again, tradeoff between accurate implementation of initial location design and complexity for current player base.

But then make it more rewarding to actually go out like that. Like if you reach the entrance in the sewers you get like an additional 10% Telvar or something like that.