With the new animation reworks, would you like ZOS to remove animation cancelling?

Morvan · January 18

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think they have done a good job of bridging the gap between playstyles. It sounds like they want to continue that and offer a little more variety in slower playstyles in the future. So I very much doubt most people still leave over it.

Since light attack weaving is still a form of skill expression in this game, I don't see a reason to delete it. But I also wouldn't care if they replaced it with something that also requires a higher degree of skill.

Skill should be rewarded in this game, after all. There needs to be room for players to grow and for that growth to be rewarded.

This game has lucked into weaving to offer that. And I don't see any issue with that at this point.

Highly agree, I don't understand how people who don't interact with weaving wants it removed when ZOS has time after time provided features for alternative gameplay, you have oakensoul, rakkhat's, velothi, beam builds, and although the two latter can partially benefit from weaving, it's much less necessary.

I'd be ok with weaving going away if they replaced it, but only if they manage to create something just as fun and engaging, which I don't feel like it would please everyone, and even if they did, the consequence would be playing a game that doesn't feel like ESO anymore.

ceruulean · January 18

Yes, get rid of Animation cancelling/weaving

ZoS shouldn't remove animation canceling, but the reason that PvP feels unbalanced for new players "I can't do damage to them but they 1 shot me" is just people holding block while casting instant type abilities. Which is unintuitive to most people, since most games are designed so you can't go offensive and defensive at the same time. So unless ZoS adds recovery delays (a small window of time where you can't barswap, bash, block or roll dodge) to instant skills so that they're punishable, we'll continue to have pvp stalemate meta.

richo262 · January 18

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Cancelling an animation should cancel the skill effect, too.

For the most part, it does. Block-cancelling channeled abilities is something people often do. Since it’s worded as animation cancelling / weaving, I assume OP means the light attack animation, which if I recall correctly, the second half of the animation is what gets cancelled.

Let me rephrase that. Cancelling an animation should cancel any damage the skill would have given.

So if I cancel a beam mid way ... it heals the damage back as though I never beamed?

SilverBride · January 19

Yes, get rid of Animation cancelling/weaving

richo262 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Cancelling an animation should cancel the skill effect, too.

For the most part, it does. Block-cancelling channeled abilities is something people often do. Since it’s worded as animation cancelling / weaving, I assume OP means the light attack animation, which if I recall correctly, the second half of the animation is what gets cancelled.

Let me rephrase that. Cancelling an animation should cancel any damage the skill would have given.

So if I cancel a beam mid way ... it heals the damage back as though I never beamed?

Do people really weave with beam?

Morvan · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

SilverBride wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Cancelling an animation should cancel the skill effect, too.

For the most part, it does. Block-cancelling channeled abilities is something people often do. Since it’s worded as animation cancelling / weaving, I assume OP means the light attack animation, which if I recall correctly, the second half of the animation is what gets cancelled.

Let me rephrase that. Cancelling an animation should cancel any damage the skill would have given.

So if I cancel a beam mid way ... it heals the damage back as though I never beamed?

Do people really weave with beam?

You can light attack before and after beam, and of course, just because you're using beam doesn't mean you're ONLY casting beam, every other non-channeled skill will have the usual instant cast, in which you would also weave.

Using velothi/beam might make you think weaving is worthless, but it's still important if you want to perform on a high level since enchantments only proc from weapon attacks, and since you're beaming most of the time, you risk losing uptime on enchantments if you stop weaving.

Morvan · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

But to make something clear, skills cancel light attack animations, not the other way around. The things that can cancel skill animations in a rotation are bash and barswap, but that's something else, not weaving.

Which means, you won't light attack DURING beam, but only before and after it like every other skill, which is still considered weaving, but with a larger gap.

SilverBride · January 19

Yes, get rid of Animation cancelling/weaving

@Morvan Thanks for clearing that up.

Soarora · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

Morvan wrote: »

But to make something clear, skills cancel light attack animations, not the other way around. The things that can cancel skill animations in a rotation are bash and barswap, but that's something else, not weaving.

I mean, you can weave with bashing but I've heard so little about "bash weaving" that it took me months to figure out what it even was (and I'm still not entirely clear if it's bashing instead of light attack or la -> skill -> bash (thus animation cancelling the skill as well). I think it's only an ultra mega sweat thing, I have heard nothing about regular people doing it except maybe on one boss ever.

Morvan · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

Soarora wrote: »

Morvan wrote: »

But to make something clear, skills cancel light attack animations, not the other way around. The things that can cancel skill animations in a rotation are bash and barswap, but that's something else, not weaving.

I mean, you can weave with bashing but I've heard so little about "bash weaving" that it took me months to figure out what it even was. I think it's only an ultra mega sweat thing, I have heard nothing about regular people doing it except maybe on one boss ever.

Yeah, that would be bash weaving, LA > Skill + Bash, adds very minimal DPS, but since this topic is about LA weaving I thought I should tell them apart. Not everyone even knows you can bash without breaking GCD.

Warhawke_80 · January 19

Yes, get rid of Animation cancelling/weaving

It's a bug that became a feature ...It should be gotten rid of

Desiato · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

It was never a bug. The animation priority/preemption system could only be intentional!

The part that was emergent was how players played ESO. ZOS didn't envision us executing abilities on cooldown. Of course they should have anticipated this, but they didn't.

In short, light attack weaving as a play style was unintended, not animation cancelling. Animation cancelling is a required feature in a game like ESO. It happens constantly when players are in motion, both in and out of combat.

The game would be borderline unplayable without animation cancelling as a feature. Please understand it is a general feature and not a combat specific function.

Techwolf_Lupindo · January 19

Yes, get rid of Animation cancelling/weaving

The number of players that want to gatekeep other players out of there little endgame group is very high. Using that exploit/bug to keep out players, including all ADA players, just so they can brag and gatekeep other players out is just wrong in my opinion.

Munkfist · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

The number of players that want to gatekeep other players out of there little endgame group is very high. Using that exploit/bug to keep out players, including all ADA players, just so they can brag and gatekeep other players out is just wrong in my opinion.

Nothing has been gatekept.

One bar builds have even run some of the hardest content, without the need for animation canceling. It's moreso that people just want free damage.

Desiato · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

Not an exploit. Not a bug. Heavy attack and beam builds can do all content, so there's no actual gatekeeping either.

Ratzkifal · January 19

Pointless poll since the well is already poisoned. Animation cancelling and weaving are two completely different things that can be connected but are not necessarily the same.

Asking for the removal of weaving is asking for the removal of light attacks. Is that understood? Weaving is not a bug or an exploit. Weaving is just the consequence of not wanting to skip out on free damage. It's the same concept as casting your spammable every second instead of only casting it every two seconds. There is no reason to not cast your skill every second. There is no reason not to weave in a light attack between skill casts.

Animation cancelling is what happens when you have an animation that lasts, for example, 1 second, on a skill that already dealt its damage after 0.8s, leaving you with 0.2s seconds of animation that accomplish nothing. Blocking for example -which needs to be possible in those split seconds as you will otherwise experience more frustrating deaths in PvE and PvP - allows you to skip those 0.2s of wasted animation time to get back into action faster. This can look janky but it doesn't have to. Removing animation cancelling can be done in multiple ways, some better than others, so try to be constructive. Streamlining the animations to look better and feel smoother to play with minimal wasted time is one way. Locking people into finishing the animation they started is another, and arguably more frustrating way to achieve this.

Regardless, animation cancelling is not what is currently excluding people from endgame content. Anyone who believes that has no idea what they are talking about and shouldn't be giving confusing feedback on the forums, on reddit or anywhere else. The fearmongering around animation cancelling is honestly ridiculous and discussions like this one poison the discourse that then surrounds our game, preventing others from picking up the game because from the outside it looks "toxic" and "very hard" when it isn't. That, in my opinion, is a much bigger issue. Misinformation and the impression that ESO is full of microtransactions considering we have what's essentially an ad jump into your face any time you log in for the first time of the day.

Before you worry about animation cancelling, worry about wearing the right sets, playing your rotation right (without animation cancelling) and weaving correctly. Once you have mastered that and want to push beyond to some ridiculous number, then you can worry about animation cancelling. And on that note, sometimes slowing down with the weaving and making your rotation simpler can result in higher damage, because:
slowing down => less stress => fewer mistakes => more damage
And if you can't do all that, even on an arcanist, learn healing or tanking and get your achievements that way.

Ratzkifal · January 19

ceruulean wrote: »

ZoS shouldn't remove animation canceling, but the reason that PvP feels unbalanced for new players "I can't do damage to them but they 1 shot me" is just people holding block while casting instant type abilities. Which is unintuitive to most people, since most games are designed so you can't go offensive and defensive at the same time. So unless ZoS adds recovery delays (a small window of time where you can't barswap, bash, block or roll dodge) to instant skills so that they're punishable, we'll continue to have pvp stalemate meta.

@ceruulean That has nothing to do being able to block. Blocking is one of the few things the tutorial actually teaches players. Sure, it could teach you that some abilities can be used while blocking but even that's not nearly as important when it comes to PvP as concepts like Crit Resistance being a thing. Who is out here teaching new players that if they want to step into PvP they should be wearing a full set of Impenetrable trait items so they don't get blown up? Who is even providing them with those? Do they know they can buy them at guild traders? By the time they figured all of that out, they are already no longer new players, at which point they have either burned their fingers on PvP and learned that the stove is in fact hot, or they continued to touch the PvP stove like a maniac until they can't even feel the heat anymore - like all the current PvPers have.

Things like subclassing, that widen the knowledge gap and raise the ceiling of what is possible, are also to blame, especially for the current meta where people only turtle up or run some crazy one-shot build thanks to subclassing and Monomyth, neither of which will be available to new players stepping into Cyrodiil for the first time. It's the only redeeming quality of Vengeance in my opinion and why I think Vengeance would serve us better as the below50 campaign because new players have access to everything there and can test around with stuff while learning how to break a keep door down.

Soarora · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

The number of players that want to gatekeep other players out of there little endgame group is very high. Using that exploit/bug to keep out players, including all ADA players, just so they can brag and gatekeep other players out is just wrong in my opinion.

It's been years since I've seen anyone mention weaving in regards to a parse, let alone content. The endgamers I've been around these days just say "you only really need to light attack once every so often for ultimate gain".

Weaving was important before U35, before Velothi, and when Relequen was meta. Now it's just a small boost to damage, especially if you're running something with a channel like HA, Arcanist, Plar, or the new DK.

frogthroat · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

When I started this game I had no idea what animation cancelling or LA-weaving were. But I wanted to be better so I took it as a task to learn. First with just spam. Then with spam and a couple of skills. I had this mini-rotation to practice. Then it became a whole rotation. Now it's every skill in every role, always. I wanted to learn it because I wanted to see how far I can get in this game.

That is my choice. Those who do not share the same goals can still play, well not as intended, but as originally intended and leave the whole animation cancelling out. No one is forcing you to do that. And if you play casually there is no real need to weave. Especially if you play a beam arcanist or any heavy attack build.

So let those who want to weave, weave. And let those who do not want it play as they like.

Nightwiish wrote: »

Absolutely get rid of it. It's a dumb mechanic and hurts overall population of the game more than it helps. Majority of players who are casual don't like the concept. It is outdated, looks janky af, and completely pointless.

How does it hurt the overall population? How did you determine majority of casual players don't like the concept?

Although animation cancelling was originally a bug, it's now an optional mechanic. I have hard time understanding how an optional mechanic is hurting anyone.

SilverBride wrote: »

richo262 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Cancelling an animation should cancel the skill effect, too.

For the most part, it does. Block-cancelling channeled abilities is something people often do. Since it’s worded as animation cancelling / weaving, I assume OP means the light attack animation, which if I recall correctly, the second half of the animation is what gets cancelled.

Let me rephrase that. Cancelling an animation should cancel any damage the skill would have given.

So if I cancel a beam mid way ... it heals the damage back as though I never beamed?

Do people really weave with beam?

Absolutely. Regardless of role, regardless of skill, I tap light attack before casting a skill. I need to remind myself not to light attack during prebuff. Even Velothi is not a reason to not weave -- you still need to apply enchants and get ulti.

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

The number of players that want to gatekeep other players out of there little endgame group is very high. Using that exploit/bug to keep out players, including all ADA players, just so they can brag and gatekeep other players out is just wrong in my opinion.

I have never heard anyone deny entry to content because someone does not weave. That does not happen. Many groups have a dps limit and they don't care how you achieve it. Of course there's a lot of silly gatekeeping, like against Oakensoul builds and HA builds in general. But never have I ever heard anyone being denied a place in a group because of their lack of weaving. Has that ever happened to anyone in the history of ESO?

NoireJin the Witchking · January 19

Yes, get rid of Animation cancelling/weaving

what would people think if LA animation didnt play, maybe just had a small glow or even a whole new quicker animation effect that way it doesn't impede the animation or the impact of the skills. Since you cant anim cancel skills anyways. My only issue isnt the fact you have to do it, it just looks so jank.

BXR_Lonestar · January 19

Yes, get rid of Animation cancelling/weaving

Yes, get rid of animation cancelling. It is by far and away my least favorite thing about this game and it needs to not be a thing. I also have my suspicions that animation cancelling has a role or adds to desyncing issues in both PVP and PVE because the server is trying to process more inputs than it was designed to process within a given window. Global cooldown should be just that - a global cool down.

Now you should still be able to string some abilities together to combo for burst damage, but it should work off of delayed damage abilities like Haunting Curse, subterranean assualt, ufsilid's contingency, relentless focus, mages' wrath, etc. where an ability can be primed and timed to go off at the same time as other abilities.

But animation cancelling as a way to bypass global cool downs shouldn't be a thing. If you don't complete the animation, then the ability shouldn't go off. It's just that simple.

Artanisul · January 19

Yes, get rid of Animation cancelling/weaving

The forum goers are mostly the people you expect to find, build followers and leaderboard chasers. Or course they are going to vote for keeping animation cancelling.

frogthroat · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Yes, get rid of animation cancelling. It is by far and away my least favorite thing about this game and it needs to not be a thing.

You don't like it, so instead of you just not using the optional mechanic, you want that no one uses it?

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I also have my suspicions that animation cancelling has a role or adds to desyncing issues in both PVP and PVE because the server is trying to process more inputs than it was designed to process within a given window.

Speculation, but wouldn't hurt if ZOS tests this -- if they haven't already.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Global cooldown should be just that - a global cool down.

And it is, for skills. Proc sets, light attacks, roll dodge fatigue, different boxes and containers, etc have different timers not related to the skill GCD.

Wolfshade · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

Ratzkifal wrote: »

...And if you can't do all that, even on an arcanist, learn healing or tanking and get your achievements that way.

...and show them what even as heal or tank with ac is possible. No need to reduce ac as a dps-only thing.

Ratzkifal · January 19

NoireJin the Witchking wrote: »

what would people think if LA animation didnt play, maybe just had a small glow or even a whole new quicker animation effect that way it doesn't impede the animation or the impact of the skills. Since you cant anim cancel skills anyways. My only issue isnt the fact you have to do it, it just looks so jank.

Artanisul wrote: »

The forum goers are mostly the people you expect to find, build followers and leaderboard chasers. Or course they are going to vote for keeping animation cancelling.

If the majority opinion on reddit is to get rid of animation cancelling then the majority of reddit is clueless. Guess that's reddit for you.

Yes, you can animation cancel skills. Look at Wall of Elements. Cast it and wait for the entire animation to finish. Then compare it to pressing the button and then barswapping after. Congratulations, you just cancelled the animation and still got the ability off. You want to get rid of that? You want to wait a whole global cooldown before being able to barswap? You want this game to be slow as molasses? The majority on reddit wants this? Really?
No, I'm pretty sure the majority on reddit just doesn't know what it is they are talking about and thinks it knows what it wants but actually doesn't.

Warhawke_80 · January 19

Yes, get rid of Animation cancelling/weaving

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

The number of players that want to gatekeep other players out of there little endgame group is very high. Using that exploit/bug to keep out players, including all ADA players, just so they can brag and gatekeep other players out is just wrong in my opinion.

Very true but the devs really don't have a choice any longer they can keep Gatekeeping content and keep losing money or they can open up the game via Solo/Story Mode Dungeons and Trails....which is what they are going to do...sure they will start with Dungeons but having a glut of content they can flick the switch on at any time is too irresistible to not take advantage of....

Yeah they are going to take the path that makes them the most money.

Radiate77 · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

Radiate77 wrote: »

Skill expression is huge in any game, what would they add to replace Animation Canceling?

How would that skill expression be preserved?

I still can’t seem to find a good answer for this from those who have voted Yes, strange enough.

I would love to engage with any ideas.

Kappachi · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

The number of players that want to gatekeep other players out of there little endgame group is very high. Using that exploit/bug to keep out players, including all ADA players, just so they can brag and gatekeep other players out is just wrong in my opinion.

Not all content should be easy enough to be completable by everyone, that includes the top 1% of content like veteran hard mode trials. This is an MMO, not a singleplayer experience you can adapt to your own skill level... the top 1% of the top 1% deserve content to get rewarded for, and this is one of those skill-based things that shouldn't be removed as it's been in the game since its inception and feels as natural as it does in a game like cs2.

Desiato · January 19

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

Artanisul wrote: »

The forum goers are mostly the people you expect to find, build followers and leaderboard chasers. Or course they are going to vote for keeping animation cancelling.

This couldn't be further from the truth. The mean age of active forum users is probably over 40 or 50 years old.

Forums aren't really relevant anymore and certainly aren't reflective of the playerbase as a whole because younger gamers tend not to use them. I would bet most of us are GenX and Boomers -- not the leaderboard pushing demo!

This is a long dead horse that most players moved on from a long time ago.

Ratzkifal · January 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Skill expression is huge in any game, what would they add to replace Animation Canceling?

How would that skill expression be preserved?

I still can’t seem to find a good answer for this from those who have voted Yes, strange enough.

I would love to engage with any ideas.

For the most part they have no answer because they don't really understand what it is they want.
Animation cancelling is some dark sorcery as unknowable as it is evil, for it is the Elitists that use its power to prevent anyone else from forming their own groups and attempting to run a trial, thus is its power to gatekeep!
Yet others think of it as wonky animations that simply look ugly, which ZOS already seems to be addressing anyway with their many updates to animations and cast times - somehow that isn't enough though. We need to rally together and ban this scourge while at the same time presenting no solution to the underlying problems! Surely that'll do the trick!

frogthroat · 9:14AM

No, keep animation cancelling/weaving

Artanisul wrote: »

The forum goers are mostly the people you expect to find, build followers and leaderboard chasers. Or course they are going to vote for keeping animation cancelling.

Let's assume you are right and the forum goers are not only mostly, but completely build followers and leaderboard chasers, there's still three questions: Yeah? And? So what?

Those who like it are of course going to use it and of course they are going to vote to keep it. What is the problem with it? You don't have to do it. No one is blocking you from joining content based on lack of animation cancelling. Gatekeepers might kick you out because of using Oakensoul, for example, but I have never, ever heard of anyone being kicked because they don't animation cancel.

Because of Velothi and beam builds animation cancelling, especially weaving, is less important than before, but those who use it are still going to be using it although the gap between weave/no weave is smaller. In my opinion if you don't like it, don't use it, and since I like it, I keep using it. What would be the justification for you not liking it so both you and I should not be using it? Why would your preference influence how I play the game when it comes to something that if I do it, it has no influence to your gameplay?