Class Identity Refresh for Sorc and Warden

MindOfTheSwarm · January 17

Just to expand on my previous post.

Wardens are up next and the work is likely done at this point if not nearing completion. What are people expecting here due to its “season” theme?

For me:
Fire = Summer
Frost = Winter

But then what?

Water (healing) Spring?
Poison = Autumn

Some are obvious like Fire Fetcherflies and Fire Shalks… but it would be interesting if we got Poison Mushrooms that burst and leave behind toxic spores that act like a Dot.

Will the skill likes even remain as they are named with such a rework?

Animal Companions seems like it wouldn’t change even with multiple damage types and roles.

Green Embrace? Not so much. Perhaps Nature’s Balance.

Winter’s Embrace? An entire line dedicated to one damage type? I would be surprised. Perhaps it would be Embrace of the Seasons.

But then, we get three lines with a mixed bag of damage types and skill roles, imitating base class setups at launch.

Fire Flies, Fire Shalks, Poison Mushrooms, Frost Bear, Sleet Storm stays as is… Arctic blast stays, but we get a fire variant?

Warden seems up for huge changes.

MashmalloMan · January 17

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Wardens are up next and the work is likely done at this point if not nearing completion. What are people expecting here due to its “season” theme?

Some expectations:

Frost damage is not going anywhere, dedicated skill line, and it's the most obvious home for Frost of the current 7 classes. This is not like DK's Poison, it was not tacked on, it's been there since day one, they've spent years reinforcing it as a damage dealing element for Warden, despite the base game treating it as support. The community has agreed over the years, happy to lose the generic Magic damage bonus.
Animal Companions is not going anywhere, dedicated skill line, it's not just a "pet" line meaning "seasons" won't fit. I see it and Nature's Embrace as 2 sides of the same coin, Flora vs Fauna, a spiritual connection to the planet and all living things to aid you in battle. They don't feel like physical beings, you're not sending a cliff racer to commit suicide, it feels like a manifestation of the spirit world, which could easily attach to any and all seasons.
Conceptually, "seasons" doesn't mean Warden has to represent individual elements for all 4. Would be a mixed bag, forcing them to reduce the potency of Frost into something generic or morphs not dealing frost would be inferior. Flame damage is so prevelant for DK, it's not necessary to try and shoehorn it in to symbolize Summer when you could make justifications for elements like Bleed or Poison related to animals, insects, or plant life.
Warden's have a natural bond with nature, when ZOS says seasons, I think they're referring to Winter's Embrace as Winter, Nature's Balance as Summer, with Animal Companion's meeting in the middle to provide a mix of the 2. Kinda like how Earthen Heart and Draconic Power are different sources for Flame damage on DK. Rather than trying to recreate every line or skill to match 4 seasons, they can play off the 2 distinct ones from Summer and Winter, a more ying/yang approach.
Mechanically, seasons could be used to introduce a class wide system similar to Avalanche for DK, not meant to be as complex as Corpses for Necro or Crux for Arcanist. Specify skills with an attached season, then provide a passive that gives a bonus any time you alternate between different seasons. Eg. "Master of Seasons = Every seasonal ability provides a unique bonus for 4s. Refreshing a seasonal bonus, refreshes all of them. Winter gives x and Summer gives y."

Based on my above assumptions..

Convert all sources of Magic to Frost damage. Just obvious.
Convert all sources of Bleed and Poison to either JUST Bleed or Poison.
- Although Bleed is the currently obvious choice, in the grand scheme of things, Nightblade with their Blood Magic and general rogue/assassin archetype would serve as a much stronger home.
- Bleed makes sense for animals, but it's a bit more of a stretch when considering the fantasies of seasons, nature, or plant based damage which would work well with Poison.
- Poison was just removed from DK with a tease that it would make a return, Warden is 2nd in line with an already strong nature and green based visual playstyle, seems like the best place for Poison if it's not going to Nightblade or Arcanist.
- As a dual element visual appeal, Poison (green) vs Frost (cyan) is the exact colour scheme Warden uses for all their abilities and could easily justify a Summer (Nature's Balance) vs Winter (Winter's Embrace) dynamic. The colour red (not orange), makes me think of Dark Brotherhood, Sithis, Nightblade, and Bleed damage. All of those aspects feel right for them, not Warden.
Based on DK, all lines should support all roles. That means at least 3 damage skills, 1 damage ultimate, 1 support ultimate, and 2-3 support morphs or dedicated skills. Passives, 2 damage, 2 support/utility. Warden already meets this structure pretty well.
- Winter's Embrace will get +1 damage skill, ultimate is already in a good place. My money is on Frozen Retreat as an aoe or a damage bonus on the Armor skill like DK. The line will continue to be Winter and Frost damage based.
- Nature's Balance will get +3 damage skills, 1 Animal Companion skill will transfer like Flies or Betty, 1 skill converted like Corrupting Pollen to deal Poison damage, and Lotus will provide the caster a damage bonus like DK's Ignious Weapons. The line will focus on Summer and Poison.
- Animal Companions will have Cliff Racer, Shalks, and Betty or Flies for 3. Betty, Wings, and whatever 5th skill they add can easily fulfill support elements. Betty could restore based on highest resource, 1 morph gives damage done for a larger amount, the other cleanses and heals HP % per second. Wings can pull in enemies and buff nearby allies as a parallel to DK's Wings. All skills will have Poison vs Frost damage options to combine the Summer vs Winter seasonal idea, this would be where a "Master of Seasons" passive fits, allowing the other 2 lines to continue giving respective Frost and Poison buffs.
- Bear and Forest ultimates can have their effects combined into 1 morph, making room for a support and damage skill respectively.

ZhuJiuyin · 1:54AM

I actually hope the Warden is more like an elementalist, using three different attributes: fire, frost, and shock. These attributes would also effectively represent the four seasons: frost for autumn and winter, fire for summer, and shock for spring (spring storms). This would also fill the current gap in the game's severe lack of summons with other attributes. In TES, we have a rich variety of summons like Flame Atronach, Flaming Familiar, Ash Spawn, Frost Atronach, Seeker, and Ash Guardian, but ESO is very lacking.

I think the new Warden should better fit the Vvardenfell and Solstheim themes, using appearances like Firemoth, Ice Wraith, Frostbite Spider, and Burnt Spriggan in its skill animations. Furthermore, considering the New-DK's current lack of critical damage, if the New-Warden is an elementalist, it will be able to effectively utilize the Elemental Catalyst set, allowing for better team synergy with the New-DK.

However, it wouldn't be bad if New-Warden were simplified to poison + frost damage, and the dual-attribute damage theme could also provide a reference for future class reworks. If New-Warden were simplified to poison + frost damage, I would hope that the Animal Companion's ultimate skill would no longer be the bear, but could be made a regular skill, and the ultimate skill could be changed to: Summons a temporary spider spirit to fight for you for 30 seconds. The spider spirit deals fan-shaped area-of-effect poison damage in front of it every 2 seconds, and each attack applies the poison status effect.

Malyore · 3:15AM

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they put storm callings surge into dark magic, then replaced the rock candy projectile with being a lightning spammable instead.

I'm not sure what the daedric line would look like, since things like curse and ward are meant to effect your pets as well.

With them having a philosophy of adding beams, I hope the beam fits into a morph on the lightning line as well. Perhaps liquid lightning. Or maybe an overhaul of the overload ultimate, which actually sounds more fun and engaging imo than it being a regular skill. Make the lightning beam a long range and feel powerful, but not a constant skill on the belt to use since it's an ultimate.

Malyore · 3:23AM

Malyore wrote: »

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they put storm callings surge into dark magic, then replaced the rock candy projectile with being a lightning spammable instead.

I'm not sure what the daedric line would look like, since things like curse and ward are meant to effect your pets as well.

With them having a philosophy of adding beams, I hope the beam fits into a morph on the lightning line as well. Perhaps liquid lightning. Or maybe an overhaul of the overload ultimate, which actually sounds more fun and engaging imo than it being a regular skill. Make the lightning beam a long range and feel powerful, but not a constant skill on the belt to use since it's an ultimate.

I also wanted to add that sorc always seemed like a burst class to me, between the exploding CC, the rune, the lingering execute, and the powered proc of the crystal spammable. I hope that playstyle is recognized and maintained in the refresh in the form of morphs.

ZhuJiuyin · 3:58AM

Malyore wrote: »

With them having a philosophy of adding beams, I hope the beam fits into a morph on the lightning line as well. Perhaps liquid lightning.

It would be fantastic if Sorc, after his rework, could have a Lightning Storm similar to the Master-level Destruction spell in TES5. While Arc already has a similar ability, it feels like it should have originally belonged to Sorc.

ESO_Nightingale · 5:50AM

Malyore wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they put storm callings surge into dark magic, then replaced the rock candy projectile with being a lightning spammable instead.

I'm not sure what the daedric line would look like, since things like curse and ward are meant to effect your pets as well.

With them having a philosophy of adding beams, I hope the beam fits into a morph on the lightning line as well. Perhaps liquid lightning. Or maybe an overhaul of the overload ultimate, which actually sounds more fun and engaging imo than it being a regular skill. Make the lightning beam a long range and feel powerful, but not a constant skill on the belt to use since it's an ultimate.

I also wanted to add that sorc always seemed like a burst class to me, between the exploding CC, the rune, the lingering execute, and the powered proc of the crystal spammable. I hope that playstyle is recognized and maintained in the refresh in the form of morphs.

feels like something they'd try to maintain given the whole dk with dots thing. (they need a buff, but still.)

Nemesis7884 · 8:43AM

could be interesting to turn frost into seasons with spring poison, summer fire, autumn lightning (storms), winter ice....

What i always wanted with Warden (which to me basically summarizes the Ranger / Druid fantasies) is to have a shape shift ultimate like the druids have...which i think could be a cool tank ulti, shapeshifting into a bear/ursaug

ZhuJiuyin · 12:30PM

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

What i always wanted with Warden (which to me basically summarizes the Ranger / Druid fantasies) is to have a shape shift ultimate like the druids have...which i think could be a cool tank ulti, shapeshifting into a bear/ursaug

While transforming into a bear/bear beast might be fun, considering the existence of werewolves, I think adding a transformation ability to a class might displease werewolf players. Because in past cases, classes typically don't have permanent weaknesses like werewolves and vampires, giving a class a transformation ability would essentially provide a flawless werewolf-like being, which could potentially reduce the value of werewolves.

ZhuJiuyin · 12:53PM

Speaking of overly similar skills, the new Molten Weapons from the New-DK class makes me a little worried. Aside from having lower additional damage than Overload, New Molten Weapons is essentially a better Overload. In addition to providing the raid with a full minute of Major Brutality and Major Sorcery, it also additional damage to the caster's Light and Heavy Attacks. Furthermore, this additional damage is unaffected by the Velothi Ur-Mage's Amulet debuff. And because it's a regular skill, Molten Weapons' additional damage is essentially permanent, unlike Overload which has more stringent conditions.

Hopefully, the upcoming Sorcery rework will make Overload more valuable; otherwise, aside from PvP, it's rarely used in PvE.

emilyhyoyeon · 1:26PM

The fixation on the ''seasons'' term is weird to me. When I first read those class blurbs, the warden one with ''seasons'' seemed obviously to me as a justification for the green balanace + ice combo of warden, since I've seen so many comments over the years saying things along the lines of ''ice never made sense to be a part of warden's kit with nature and animal magic!!''.

Major_Mangle · 2:19PM

The way ZOS buffed "pure DK" with the rework I´m honestly terrified how they´ll approach sorc (from a PvP perspective). The class is and has been one of the strongest spec for pvp for years now. Streak alone is enough to justify picking storm calling. People like to downplay dark magic, but it´s unironically one of the stronger skillines in the game for PvP.

Nemesis7884 · 5:25PM

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

What i always wanted with Warden (which to me basically summarizes the Ranger / Druid fantasies) is to have a shape shift ultimate like the druids have...which i think could be a cool tank ulti, shapeshifting into a bear/ursaug

While transforming into a bear/bear beast might be fun, considering the existence of werewolves, I think adding a transformation ability to a class might displease werewolf players. Because in past cases, classes typically don't have permanent weaknesses like werewolves and vampires, giving a class a transformation ability would essentially provide a flawless werewolf-like being, which could potentially reduce the value of werewolves.

druids can transform into ursaugs and the necro has a transform ulti as well

ZhuJiuyin · 6:08PM

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

druids can transform into ursaugs and the necro has a transform ulti as well

The necro's transformation is still humanoid, but transforming into a bear requires a different module, and may even require different skills. You wouldn't expect to see a bear attacking enemies with a two-handed sword in its mouth, would you? The last time I saw an animal with a sword in its mouth was in Pokémon.

Malyore · 6:23PM

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they put storm callings surge into dark magic, then replaced the rock candy projectile with being a lightning spammable instead.

I'm not sure what the daedric line would look like, since things like curse and ward are meant to effect your pets as well.

With them having a philosophy of adding beams, I hope the beam fits into a morph on the lightning line as well. Perhaps liquid lightning. Or maybe an overhaul of the overload ultimate, which actually sounds more fun and engaging imo than it being a regular skill. Make the lightning beam a long range and feel powerful, but not a constant skill on the belt to use since it's an ultimate.

I also wanted to add that sorc always seemed like a burst class to me, between the exploding CC, the rune, the lingering execute, and the powered proc of the crystal spammable. I hope that playstyle is recognized and maintained in the refresh in the form of morphs.

feels like something they'd try to maintain given the whole dk with dots thing. (they need a buff, but still.)

I think it would also lean into that "strategist" role they use in sorcs description. I'm very curious to see what they do.

I hope dark magic loses the crystal motif honestly. I can see how it's similar to cold harbour or soul gems or whatever, but it doesn't feel magical to be throwing rocks at people. I much prefer the daedric runes in the other line. To me, that feels much more like an appropriate source of dark magic and provides and acumen that fits the power fantasy.

A lot of what arcanist is feels like what sorcerer should have been.

ZhuJiuyin · 6:33PM

Malyore wrote: »

A lot of what arcanist is feels like what sorcerer should have been.

I feel the same way.

ESO_Nightingale · 7:19PM

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The fixation on the ''seasons'' term is weird to me. When I first read those class blurbs, the warden one with ''seasons'' seemed obviously to me as a justification for the green balanace + ice combo of warden, since I've seen so many comments over the years saying things along the lines of ''ice never made sense to be a part of warden's kit with nature and animal magic!!''.

If im being fully honest, i think seasons is a fluff word that doesnt mean anything. Warden doesnt have a class mechanic or damage profile or really anything. Its a class that has a bunch of random damage skills on it. It doesnt have an identity outside of the colour and theme of its skills and it needs one. "Not having an identity" is not an identity.

Malyore · 7:49PM

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The fixation on the ''seasons'' term is weird to me. When I first read those class blurbs, the warden one with ''seasons'' seemed obviously to me as a justification for the green balanace + ice combo of warden, since I've seen so many comments over the years saying things along the lines of ''ice never made sense to be a part of warden's kit with nature and animal magic!!''.

If im being fully honest, i think seasons is a fluff word that doesnt mean anything. Warden doesnt have a class mechanic or damage profile or really anything. Its a class that has a bunch of random damage skills on it. It doesnt have an identity outside of the colour and theme of its skills and it needs one. "Not having an identity" is not an identity.

I can see that. But I also am someone that usually appreciates a jack of all trades sort of class. That's why in prior elder scrolls games I always went with a spellblade. If the class was actually less themed, I can see how that "non identity" could fit people's preference when choosing a class for the first time, by being able to adapt to multiple situations.

But obviously as an adjustment to a current class, it's difficult to balance between druidic, ice, animal ranger, and Morrowind specific themes that players have already gotten used to. It's hard to imagine where they are gonna go with it.

Cooperharley · 8:10PM

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

This warden player prefers animal companions.

I'd also like to know what the focus will be for the warden. Will it be frost, animal companions, or something else?

This is what I meant when I said that removing or binding specific styles because of Class Identity Refresh will definitely cause dissatisfaction, especially for classes like Warden and Sorc, whose skill lines have vastly different styles. We really should know the development direction early on to avoid being caught off guard.

Warden will probably be bleed damage (animal companions) & frost damage

YandereGirlfriend · 8:10PM

Malyore wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The fixation on the ''seasons'' term is weird to me. When I first read those class blurbs, the warden one with ''seasons'' seemed obviously to me as a justification for the green balanace + ice combo of warden, since I've seen so many comments over the years saying things along the lines of ''ice never made sense to be a part of warden's kit with nature and animal magic!!''.

If im being fully honest, i think seasons is a fluff word that doesnt mean anything. Warden doesnt have a class mechanic or damage profile or really anything. Its a class that has a bunch of random damage skills on it. It doesnt have an identity outside of the colour and theme of its skills and it needs one. "Not having an identity" is not an identity.

I can see that. But I also am someone that usually appreciates a jack of all trades sort of class. That's why in prior elder scrolls games I always went with a spellblade. If the class was actually less themed, I can see how that "non identity" could fit people's preference when choosing a class for the first time, by being able to adapt to multiple situations.

But obviously as an adjustment to a current class, it's difficult to balance between druidic, ice, animal ranger, and Morrowind specific themes that players have already gotten used to. It's hard to imagine where they are gonna go with it.

I have the opposite take with the idea of a "classless class". My original character was a StamSorc and that was the original "classless class". That felt like a huge cop-out in a game that implements classes.

Subclassing is basically the classless class since you can cobble together whatever combination of other lines that you want to fit basically any theme or headcanon.

Cooperharley · 8:11PM

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Dear @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Although the opposition was relatively small, most players did not expect that the DK's poison damage would be removed., and not something they had previously requested, could ZOS inform us whether other classes, such as Warden and Sorc, which previously combined multiple playstyles, will also have elements added or removed?

According to the Class Identity Refresh description, Warden seems to no longer emphasize frost and animals, but rather the so-called seasons; similarly, Sorc no longer emphasizes shock, but rather Dark Magic and Daedric.

However, from forums, it seems that most Sorc players want an emphasis on shock and Dark Magic gameplay, rather than Daedric, and Warden player seems to prefer emphasizing frost damage.
This time players can (barely) acceptable removal of poison damage from the New DK doesn't mean that removing frost from Warden or forcing Sorc back into a zoo-like playstyle will be acceptable.

It would be great if we could understand the development direction in advance and propose changes before it's too late.

When you think of a dragon do you think of poison? I think of everything essentially but poison. Poison sounds like itd fit much better on NB

MashmalloMan · 10:01PM

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The fixation on the ''seasons'' term is weird to me. When I first read those class blurbs, the warden one with ''seasons'' seemed obviously to me as a justification for the green balanace + ice combo of warden, since I've seen so many comments over the years saying things along the lines of ''ice never made sense to be a part of warden's kit with nature and animal magic!!''.

If im being fully honest, i think seasons is a fluff word that doesnt mean anything.

I think that's a half truth.

On one hand, the term is clearly being used as way to give a connective element between all 3 skill lines, a major complaint since release has been that it feels like they smashed 3 seperate classes into 1.

On the other hand, it sounds like an actual mechanic, but not as specific as Necro or Arcanist. I imagine it will be like DK's Avalanche, a way to reinforce and reward the intended playstyle of the class, something that will come natural as appose to forcing you into managing a type of combo system.

These are the 3 classes I feel Warden emulated poorly:

Animal Companions (Fauna) = Beast Master.
Winter's Embrace (Weather) = Cryomancer.
Green Balance (Flora) = Druid.

The common thread for Warden is nature, but how could it be more distinct with seasons?

Echoes of the Wild (Animal Companions) = Spiritual connection, summons are imbued or spawned from different seasons instead of Varrdenfell. Combines all 4 seasons or at least represents the main 2.
Winter's Embrace = Master of Winter and Frost. Harsh, cold, shrinking, piercing, death.
Summer’s Grace (Green Balance) = Master of Summer and Poison. Calm, warm, growth, infecting, life.

If DK is about being a brawler, I think Warden would be about alternating seasons, juggling skills, comboing polarizing seasons for new effects. What happens when a Summer skill follows up a Winter skill or vise versa? What does a Summer imbued bear look like vs a Winter one?