On removing poison damage from DKs

JimT722 · January 16

it could go to nightblade. or warden. or necromancer. all would fit better then dragonknight. and we might get an entire skill line that does poison instead of the very few abilities we have now on dragonknight because it was a bandaid change.

JimT722 · January 16

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

if nightblade does get poison that could make for an even better rat king build then the strange green fire we have now. this rework is good. can't wait to see what they do with the other classes. the new dk on pts plays so well.

If, could, then.

Then again, IF nightblade even get's poison as it's (only?) element, it will take far too long until this happens. The roadmap states that nightblade is the 5th class that get's refreshed. The picture showcasing ZOS idea for each class hints nothing in that direction for NBs.
And even if, no one playing a poison DK will benefit from that.

I would rather they take chances. instead of a few fire abilities made green we could get a well thought out skill line on another class based around poison.

I love poison. I liked it enough to get that poison skeever mount. I want them to do something else with poison. anything else. green fire ain't it. poison class abilities suck thematically in eso and it deserves better.

Vulkunne · January 16

JimT722 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

the classes need reworks

Really? The classes have seemed fine up to now. Also, reworks or even change in general doesn't necessarily mean a need to delete long term functionality.

it isn't deleting anything. Just changing poison to fire. restoring the fire, dragon, earth theme and getting rid of the tacked on green fire.

nightblade will probably get poison.

and the classes are fine to you. a lot of people aren't happy with the current balance of everything.

The theme for the DK, for many years now, has consisted of the following:

- Eastern Akaviri Martial Skills
- Earth themes based more on Geology than Biology
- Dragon Power, especially Eastern (Akaviri), Nord Dragon powers
- Abilities that were previous described as being Noxious or causing Painful burning
- Flames, Poison and a bit of Disease mixed in

That said, Fire isn't the only thing that burns. Ever seen a chemical burn? Certain chemicals are flammable, certain chemical also produce smoke. So, Poison in this since, was right at home with DK. Posion and Fire are its bread and butter, along with the other traits. Could others use poison yes.

You see, I believe, it comes down to what the vision is for each Class and drawing the Class from a well of lore, a sense of realism as well as an experience of true discovery. Rather than someone for whatever unrelated reason, sitting behind a desk and gluing things together based on an image they like rather than grown or evolved from a seed that grew from the story behind it.

You can take an image that checks the boxes or you can have an experience based on what comes from a free artist approach to class design. I mean, the fact they're saying now the DK power is underwater comes as no surprise to me. Diversity is strength and it comes from having a strong identity. Having a character that does only one damage type when very clearly their background suggests a deep well of possibilities, access to different things, is not acknowledging its identity.

Thus, the DK or the PK, Paladin Knight, is weak. It will in fact... continue to suffer because they're holding back. And that's why identity is so important because it provides both a roadmap and a justification for greatness rather than apologizing for it. Holding back and trying to make everyone happy will just waste everyone's time. Either make the class right or unmake it. Cause you do know what's going to happen? Other classes such as the Sorc or Warden, who don't have this problem, will become more popular and will fill a void left behind.

And I don't think deleting poison damage from the PK is worth all this trouble.

MXVIIDREAM · January 16

Personally think the poison damage was a bit wasted on Dragonknights so these changes are welcome to me, very few skills done poison damage makes sense to me for the class to a master of flame

JimT722 · January 16

there is no paladin knight. it's dragon knight. changing fire to poison was no trouble back in the day. as seen on pts changing poison back to fire was also no problem now that damage scales from highest stats. that is clearly what their vision for dragonknight was as evidenced by the class on release and the recent changes.

poison or chemicals aren't a common source of damage for dragons in elder scrolls. mainly fire. sometimes other elements. so I don't think it was at home. poison was a bandaid that is no longer needed.

Anyways, I believe they probably have a general plan for the classes going forward and we will have to wait and see. poison will end up somewhere.

Vulkunne · January 16

JimT722 wrote: »

there is no paladin knight. it's dragon knight. changing fire to poison was no trouble back in the day. as seen on pts changing poison back to fire was also no problem now that damage scales from highest stats. that is clearly what their vision for dragonknight was as evidenced by the class on release and the recent changes.

poison or chemicals aren't a common source of damage for dragons in elder scrolls. mainly fire. sometimes other elements. so I don't think it was at home. poison was a bandaid that is no longer needed.

Anyways, I believe they probably have a general plan for the classes going forward and we will have to wait and see. poison will end up somewhere.

Its weakening the class. You make it sound so simple. Its not just a change, if I take a Renaissance painting and scribble a little mustache and some big ears over it, is that just a change too? Also, sometimes you have to allow for a bit of imagination. Poison for the DK is really like acid or noxious chemicals produced from volcanic processes. It's not necessarily the same thing as poison from like rattlesnake. Acid is basically fire in chemical form. It dissolves material, changes the chemical nature of material, produces smoke and toxins. Their effects are similar.

By only having fire, let's think about this... first of all, All Dragons don't just breathe fire in elder scrolls. So again, are they making like a Fire Mage here, is it a Paladin? Cause it really feels they're trying to unmake the DragonKnight into something else. Why does it only have to be fire? Dragons in Skyrim used at a bare minimum frost and shock attacks as well. So, you mean to say that Dragons can do all this, but not possess poison attacks too?

Also, this is Yellow Stone. The heat and processes from the magma pocket underneath have turned it into this:

yellowstone-lake-promo.jpg?w=1200

See that bright blue 'water' ... that's not water and I don't suggest anyone try and drink it.

JimT722 · January 16

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

there is no paladin knight. it's dragon knight. changing fire to poison was no trouble back in the day. as seen on pts changing poison back to fire was also no problem now that damage scales from highest stats. that is clearly what their vision for dragonknight was as evidenced by the class on release and the recent changes.

poison or chemicals aren't a common source of damage for dragons in elder scrolls. mainly fire. sometimes other elements. so I don't think it was at home. poison was a bandaid that is no longer needed.

Anyways, I believe they probably have a general plan for the classes going forward and we will have to wait and see. poison will end up somewhere.

Its weakening the class. You make it sound so simple. Its not just a change, if I take a Renaissance painting and scribble a little mustache and some big ears over it, is that just a change too?

Also, sometimes you have to allow for a bit of imagination. Poison for the DK is really like acid or noxious chemicals produced from volcanic processes. It's not necessarily the same thing as poison from like rattlesnake.

Acid is basically fire in chemical form. It dissolves material, changes the chemical nature of material, produces smoke and toxins. Their effects are similar.

By only having fire, let's think about this... Dragons don't just breathe fire in ESO. So again, are they making like a Fire Mage here, is it a Paladin? Cause it really feels they're trying to unmake the DragonKnight into something else.

it's not unmaking it. they turned fire green and called it a stamina morph. it was just a bandaid. they went back to fire. that's all. I don't think that's worth keeping. they should do something different with poison. I think that is their plan.

also I never said they only use fire. that's in what you quoted. dragons most commonly use fire. the skill line is called ardent flame. i'm not the one making it seem like a fire mage

Personofsecrets · January 16

AScarlato wrote: »

Poison could also go on Wardens since it's a nature-based damage type and they already do things like summon fungus and stinging swarms. Plants and animals are how most people get poisoned naturally.

I know assassins in fantasy also use poison but the nightblade seems like it has a different magical focus with shadow.

I do understand the loss of the Green Poison Dragon fantasy though for those that liked it.

I tend to agree with this. I think that ice damage should get nyxed from wardens, and they should be the poison dot class. This change would really spice things up. I can't wait. If some players don't like this change, then that will be too bad as we can't hold back changing the game just because a few people are entrenched in the old ways. Switching things up, shaking things up, modernizing the game, and refreshing the game necessarily means players paying the blood tribute of their ways of enjoying the game on the alter of anti-sub-classing mania.

Vulkunne · January 16

JimT722 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

if nightblade does get poison that could make for an even better rat king build then the strange green fire we have now. this rework is good. can't wait to see what they do with the other classes. the new dk on pts plays so well.

If, could, then.

Then again, IF nightblade even get's poison as it's (only?) element, it will take far too long until this happens. The roadmap states that nightblade is the 5th class that get's refreshed. The picture showcasing ZOS idea for each class hints nothing in that direction for NBs.
And even if, no one playing a poison DK will benefit from that.

I would rather they take chances. instead of a few fire abilities made green we could get a well thought out skill line on another class based around poison.

I love poison. I liked it enough to get that poison skeever mount. I want them to do something else with poison. anything else. green fire ain't it. poison class abilities suck thematically in eso and it deserves better.

But wouldn't you be doing the same thing with a different class? Flipping them green when they're currently not that way?

Why can't we 'take chances' with the DK abilities as well and use something other than how the DK was originally presented. How many years ago was that? Over 10 years and the DK should not evolve from what it was? Furthermore, I ask this... if them resetting it back to what you think it should be from years ago is a refresh, then what is being refreshed? That's not a factory reset, not a refresh.

And green fire is a thing btw. I've used it for years. It's in lore and something that's just like can be setup in game too. See, this is what I don't like, because I know things can be done better but arguing with ZOS is like yelling at a brick wall and so is trying to argue with people who will settle for less AND deny me from what's possible. That is my problem with this community, it's not so many people don't necessarily agree with me, it's that they won't. It's not that ZOS can't listen, I've dropped a ton of time and money on this game over time and never once had them pencil in any of my ideas.

Vulkunne · January 16

JimT722 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

there is no paladin knight. it's dragon knight. changing fire to poison was no trouble back in the day. as seen on pts changing poison back to fire was also no problem now that damage scales from highest stats. that is clearly what their vision for dragonknight was as evidenced by the class on release and the recent changes.

poison or chemicals aren't a common source of damage for dragons in elder scrolls. mainly fire. sometimes other elements. so I don't think it was at home. poison was a bandaid that is no longer needed.

Anyways, I believe they probably have a general plan for the classes going forward and we will have to wait and see. poison will end up somewhere.

Its weakening the class. You make it sound so simple. Its not just a change, if I take a Renaissance painting and scribble a little mustache and some big ears over it, is that just a change too?

Also, sometimes you have to allow for a bit of imagination. Poison for the DK is really like acid or noxious chemicals produced from volcanic processes. It's not necessarily the same thing as poison from like rattlesnake.

Acid is basically fire in chemical form. It dissolves material, changes the chemical nature of material, produces smoke and toxins. Their effects are similar.

By only having fire, let's think about this... Dragons don't just breathe fire in ESO. So again, are they making like a Fire Mage here, is it a Paladin? Cause it really feels they're trying to unmake the DragonKnight into something else.

it's not unmaking it. they turned fire green and called it a stamina morph. it was just a bandaid. they went back to fire. that's all. I don't think that's worth keeping. they should do something different with poison. I think that is their plan.

also I never said they only use fire. that's in what you quoted. dragons most commonly use fire. the skill line is called ardent flame. i'm not the one making it seem like a fire mage

Ok you say it's not unmaking it right? Then why is it so weak now. It wasn't weak before.

And I know what the skills are called btw.

JimT722 · January 16

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

if nightblade does get poison that could make for an even better rat king build then the strange green fire we have now. this rework is good. can't wait to see what they do with the other classes. the new dk on pts plays so well.

If, could, then.

Then again, IF nightblade even get's poison as it's (only?) element, it will take far too long until this happens. The roadmap states that nightblade is the 5th class that get's refreshed. The picture showcasing ZOS idea for each class hints nothing in that direction for NBs.
And even if, no one playing a poison DK will benefit from that.

I would rather they take chances. instead of a few fire abilities made green we could get a well thought out skill line on another class based around poison.

I love poison. I liked it enough to get that poison skeever mount. I want them to do something else with poison. anything else. green fire ain't it. poison class abilities suck thematically in eso and it deserves better.

But wouldn't you be doing the same thing with a different class? Flipping them green when they're not currently that way?

Why can't we 'take chances' with the DK abilities as well and use something other than how the DK was originally presented. How many years ago was that? Over 10 years and the DK should not evolve from what it was?

turning a few fire abilities green so they scale with stamina isn't evolving the class. I think poison would definitely fit nightblade. I could see an argument for warden. maybe even necro.

I don't know if you played pts. they are evolving the class. really leaning into the dragon fantasy. engulfing flames for example is amazing.

JimT722 · January 16

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

there is no paladin knight. it's dragon knight. changing fire to poison was no trouble back in the day. as seen on pts changing poison back to fire was also no problem now that damage scales from highest stats. that is clearly what their vision for dragonknight was as evidenced by the class on release and the recent changes.

poison or chemicals aren't a common source of damage for dragons in elder scrolls. mainly fire. sometimes other elements. so I don't think it was at home. poison was a bandaid that is no longer needed.

Anyways, I believe they probably have a general plan for the classes going forward and we will have to wait and see. poison will end up somewhere.

Its weakening the class. You make it sound so simple. Its not just a change, if I take a Renaissance painting and scribble a little mustache and some big ears over it, is that just a change too?

Also, sometimes you have to allow for a bit of imagination. Poison for the DK is really like acid or noxious chemicals produced from volcanic processes. It's not necessarily the same thing as poison from like rattlesnake.

Acid is basically fire in chemical form. It dissolves material, changes the chemical nature of material, produces smoke and toxins. Their effects are similar.

By only having fire, let's think about this... Dragons don't just breathe fire in ESO. So again, are they making like a Fire Mage here, is it a Paladin? Cause it really feels they're trying to unmake the DragonKnight into something else.

it's not unmaking it. they turned fire green and called it a stamina morph. it was just a bandaid. they went back to fire. that's all. I don't think that's worth keeping. they should do something different with poison. I think that is their plan.

also I never said they only use fire. that's in what you quoted. dragons most commonly use fire. the skill line is called ardent flame. i'm not the one making it seem like a fire mage

Ok you say it's not unmaking it right? Then why is it so weak now. It wasn't weak before.

And I know what the skills are called btw.

You think it's weak now? wow. it definitely isn't. what we have on the pts is definitely better

Desiato · January 16

IMO most who were Stam DKs in Cyrodiil prior to hybridization have a warm spot in their hearts for the poison themed skills.

I'm very sad to lose them from a character development/continuity standpoint. Before anyone says it, no skill styles are not the solution.

The Dragonknight class seems absurdly monochrome now. I've been into dragons since reading Dragonlance novels as a child and they were always very colorful and diverse. The same is true in the TES Universe. I find red dragons to be rather cliche to be honest.

BardokRedSnow · January 16

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

if nightblade does get poison that could make for an even better rat king build then the strange green fire we have now. this rework is good. can't wait to see what they do with the other classes. the new dk on pts plays so well.

If, could, then.

Then again, IF nightblade even get's poison as it's (only?) element, it will take far too long until this happens. The roadmap states that nightblade is the 5th class that get's refreshed. The picture showcasing ZOS idea for each class hints nothing in that direction for NBs.
And even if, no one playing a poison DK will benefit from that.

I would rather they take chances. instead of a few fire abilities made green we could get a well thought out skill line on another class based around poison.

I love poison. I liked it enough to get that poison skeever mount. I want them to do something else with poison. anything else. green fire ain't it. poison class abilities suck thematically in eso and it deserves better.

But wouldn't you be doing the same thing with a different class? Flipping them green when they're currently not that way?

Why can't we 'take chances' with the DK abilities as well and use something other than how the DK was originally presented. How many years ago was that? Over 10 years and the DK should not evolve from what it was?

Furthermore, I ask this... if them resetting it back to what you think it should be from years ago is a refresh, then what is being refreshed? That's not a factory reset, not a refresh.

The class is being refreshed, which means taking out what doesnt work that well and replacing it with what does. As it was, poison didn't have to be there and most (not all) going off the results of their surveys I assume didnt care or like the toxic/venomous themes. They asked people about what class identity meant to them, and I am guessing people like myself that mentioned the dk mentioned fire and the disconnect of stamina classes and abilities from the rest of the abilities.

If you think about the hybridization of stamina and magicka it makes even less sense. That was the whole point of marrying the two with molten whip.

There's a grand total of 3 skills that we're losing with toxic themes out of the entire class. Thats what we're talking about losing. Its not worth taking risks for when we can just make them match the overall fiery themes most people think of when they think 'Dragon Knight'.

Ignoring also that even the DK themed sets are also fire based. I dont think most of us want them to take chances with our class, we want them to be better than they are, up to par with subclassing and new classes. That's the point of this refresh.

Vulkunne · January 16

Desiato wrote: »

IMO most who were Stam DKs in Cyrodiil prior to hybridization have a warm spot in their hearts for the poison themed skills.

I'm very sad to lose them from a character development/continuity standpoint. Before anyone says it, no skill styles are not the solution.

The Dragonknight class seems absurdly monochrome now. I've been into dragons since reading Dragonlance novels as a child and they were always very colorful and diverse. The same is true in the TES Universe. I find red dragons to be rather cliche to be honest.

My Orc PK happens to be the 'Grand Master Crafter' for my account, so I can live with having an Orc Paladin who runs the Armory. Just what I wanted... another Templar.

But this one is also having an identity crises.

BardokRedSnow · January 16

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

there is no paladin knight. it's dragon knight. changing fire to poison was no trouble back in the day. as seen on pts changing poison back to fire was also no problem now that damage scales from highest stats. that is clearly what their vision for dragonknight was as evidenced by the class on release and the recent changes.

poison or chemicals aren't a common source of damage for dragons in elder scrolls. mainly fire. sometimes other elements. so I don't think it was at home. poison was a bandaid that is no longer needed.

Anyways, I believe they probably have a general plan for the classes going forward and we will have to wait and see. poison will end up somewhere.

Its weakening the class. You make it sound so simple. Its not just a change, if I take a Renaissance painting and scribble a little mustache and some big ears over it, is that just a change too?

Also, sometimes you have to allow for a bit of imagination. Poison for the DK is really like acid or noxious chemicals produced from volcanic processes. It's not necessarily the same thing as poison from like rattlesnake.

Acid is basically fire in chemical form. It dissolves material, changes the chemical nature of material, produces smoke and toxins. Their effects are similar.

By only having fire, let's think about this... Dragons don't just breathe fire in ESO. So again, are they making like a Fire Mage here, is it a Paladin? Cause it really feels they're trying to unmake the DragonKnight into something else.

it's not unmaking it. they turned fire green and called it a stamina morph. it was just a bandaid. they went back to fire. that's all. I don't think that's worth keeping. they should do something different with poison. I think that is their plan.

also I never said they only use fire. that's in what you quoted. dragons most commonly use fire. the skill line is called ardent flame. i'm not the one making it seem like a fire mage

Ok you say it's not unmaking it right? Then why is it so weak now. It wasn't weak before.

And I know what the skills are called btw.

Because dots got nerfed with the two second procs and DKs due to being so common and popular get a lot of flack when we're strong in the meta and called for mass nerfs regularly. Our sustain was dropped, DK wings have been nerfed for years, same with og reflective wings.... lots of reasons that have nothing to do with having stamina poison themed skills specifically. DK is a meat and potatoes class, frontliners. By its nature and association with Nords and Dunmer, being two very popular races from very popular games in the fandom respectfully, there's a lot of us. So we're under scrutiny for being overpowered every time we're strong in the meta. Its annoying and frustrating.

If you mean the class after these changes, its not weak at all. Is it as strong as these subclass combos, no idea yet but it is definitely improved. Thats good enough for me.

Vulkunne · January 17

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

there is no paladin knight. it's dragon knight. changing fire to poison was no trouble back in the day. as seen on pts changing poison back to fire was also no problem now that damage scales from highest stats. that is clearly what their vision for dragonknight was as evidenced by the class on release and the recent changes.

poison or chemicals aren't a common source of damage for dragons in elder scrolls. mainly fire. sometimes other elements. so I don't think it was at home. poison was a bandaid that is no longer needed.

Anyways, I believe they probably have a general plan for the classes going forward and we will have to wait and see. poison will end up somewhere.

Its weakening the class. You make it sound so simple. Its not just a change, if I take a Renaissance painting and scribble a little mustache and some big ears over it, is that just a change too?

Also, sometimes you have to allow for a bit of imagination. Poison for the DK is really like acid or noxious chemicals produced from volcanic processes. It's not necessarily the same thing as poison from like rattlesnake.

Acid is basically fire in chemical form. It dissolves material, changes the chemical nature of material, produces smoke and toxins. Their effects are similar.

By only having fire, let's think about this... Dragons don't just breathe fire in ESO. So again, are they making like a Fire Mage here, is it a Paladin? Cause it really feels they're trying to unmake the DragonKnight into something else.

it's not unmaking it. they turned fire green and called it a stamina morph. it was just a bandaid. they went back to fire. that's all. I don't think that's worth keeping. they should do something different with poison. I think that is their plan.

also I never said they only use fire. that's in what you quoted. dragons most commonly use fire. the skill line is called ardent flame. i'm not the one making it seem like a fire mage

Ok you say it's not unmaking it right? Then why is it so weak now. It wasn't weak before.

And I know what the skills are called btw.

Because dots got nerfed with the two second procs and DKs due to being so common and popular get a lot of flack when we're strong in the meta and called for mass nerfs regularly. Our sustain was dropped, DK wings have been nerfed for years, same with og reflective wings.... lots of reasons that have nothing to do with having stamina poison themed skills specifically. DK is a meat and potatoes class, frontliners. By its nature and association with Nords and Dunmer, being two very popular races from very popular games in the fandom respectfully, there's a lot of us. So we're under scrutiny for being overpowered every time we're strong in the meta. Its annoying and frustrating.

If you mean the class after these changes, its not weak at all. Is it as strong as these subclass combos, no idea yet but it is definitely improved. Thats good enough for me.

ZOS already said the DK in its current form was lacking in terms of power. You can look at the full report from them if you wish, I don't want to speak for their findings. Second, subclass builds are well-known to be superior to pure DK, and furthermore several notable authorities in the community have lists showcasing common subclass skill combinations. The DK skills are not anywhere close to the more desired ones. Dk does in its current form, meet a weakened PK class from factory reset, stripped of its identity. Are you sure the Paladin is going to whip subclass hybrids? I mean, as long as, you are sure.

Alright well, so I have to go back to work tomorrow, gonna be a busy week. Presently, many of us have tried to fight the good fight for class identity and to balance PvP groups, in particular ball groups. For now, I'm thinking to just retire the DK as it won't be competitive for the foreseeable future. And parse on a dummy... doesn't count ok. For real?!?? Additionally, seeing how they either can't or won't nerf ball group exploits, I have no choice but to remain clear of primetime Cyrodiil, which is when they are on mostly.

Not saying goodbye, I still play ESO, still PvP even, but some changes need to be made and if ZOS won't make 'em then I'll have to adapt and play around them. And ... during my time on here, allow me to say, I didn't come here looking for trouble. I've been with ESO for a long time, a very long time now and care about the game. But I really don't think class or players are being represented properly anymore. I understand ZOS has hard times, I get it and have no lofty expectations, but there are some real expectations, and I urge ZOS and in a professional and respectful manner to consider everyone's thoughts on the matter, as I know how easy it is to fall back into the same habits, same routine.

And I'm worried that's already beginning to happen now.

BardokRedSnow · January 17

Vulkunne wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

there is no paladin knight. it's dragon knight. changing fire to poison was no trouble back in the day. as seen on pts changing poison back to fire was also no problem now that damage scales from highest stats. that is clearly what their vision for dragonknight was as evidenced by the class on release and the recent changes.

poison or chemicals aren't a common source of damage for dragons in elder scrolls. mainly fire. sometimes other elements. so I don't think it was at home. poison was a bandaid that is no longer needed.

Anyways, I believe they probably have a general plan for the classes going forward and we will have to wait and see. poison will end up somewhere.

Its weakening the class. You make it sound so simple. Its not just a change, if I take a Renaissance painting and scribble a little mustache and some big ears over it, is that just a change too?

Also, sometimes you have to allow for a bit of imagination. Poison for the DK is really like acid or noxious chemicals produced from volcanic processes. It's not necessarily the same thing as poison from like rattlesnake.

Acid is basically fire in chemical form. It dissolves material, changes the chemical nature of material, produces smoke and toxins. Their effects are similar.

By only having fire, let's think about this... Dragons don't just breathe fire in ESO. So again, are they making like a Fire Mage here, is it a Paladin? Cause it really feels they're trying to unmake the DragonKnight into something else.

it's not unmaking it. they turned fire green and called it a stamina morph. it was just a bandaid. they went back to fire. that's all. I don't think that's worth keeping. they should do something different with poison. I think that is their plan.

also I never said they only use fire. that's in what you quoted. dragons most commonly use fire. the skill line is called ardent flame. i'm not the one making it seem like a fire mage

Ok you say it's not unmaking it right? Then why is it so weak now. It wasn't weak before.

And I know what the skills are called btw.

Because dots got nerfed with the two second procs and DKs due to being so common and popular get a lot of flack when we're strong in the meta and called for mass nerfs regularly. Our sustain was dropped, DK wings have been nerfed for years, same with og reflective wings.... lots of reasons that have nothing to do with having stamina poison themed skills specifically. DK is a meat and potatoes class, frontliners. By its nature and association with Nords and Dunmer, being two very popular races from very popular games in the fandom respectfully, there's a lot of us. So we're under scrutiny for being overpowered every time we're strong in the meta. Its annoying and frustrating.

If you mean the class after these changes, its not weak at all. Is it as strong as these subclass combos, no idea yet but it is definitely improved. Thats good enough for me.

ZOS already said the DK in its current form was lacking in terms of power. You can look at the full report from them if you wish, I don't want to speak for their findings.

Second, subclass builds are well-known to be superior to pure DK, and furthermore several notable authorities in the community have lists showcasing common subclass skill combinations. The DK skills are not anywhere close to the more desired ones.

So DK in its current form, meet a weakened PK class from factory reset, stripped of its identity. Are you sure the Paladin is going to whip subclass hybrids? I mean, as long as, you are sure.

We all know its weak currently, thats the point of the refresh lol. Unless you think they mean current state being the pts changes, which is not "current" and as I said, whether thats considered weak or not is up for debate but from what I've seen when testing it thats absolutely not true and its stronger than what we have now.

Even were this the case its not because we lack poison damage lol. I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying, especially with the subclass comment, no one is saying DK is good as is rn.

iyx · January 17

Vulkunne wrote: »

The theme for the DK, for many years now, has consisted of the following:

- Eastern Akaviri Martial Skills
- Earth themes based more on Geology than Biology
- Dragon Power, especially Eastern (Akaviri), Nord Dragon powers
- Abilities that were previous described as being Noxious or causing Painful burning
- Flames, Poison and a bit of Disease mixed in

You see, I believe, it comes down to what the vision is for each Class and drawing the Class from a well of lore, a sense of realism as well as an experience of true discovery. Rather than someone for whatever unrelated reason, sitting behind a desk and gluing things together based on an image they like rather than grown or evolved from a seed that grew from the story behind it.

This, I think the future approach to classes isn't about following some theme, but rather focusing on a specific archetype, as if DK were allowed to use only heavy armor just because of the "knight" part. I preferred when ZOS just threw a bunch of abilities at players and let them interpret them their own way, but it seems like that has nothing to do with class identity, so change in approach understandable. I just think it will take away some of the creative freedom from players.

Personofsecrets · January 17

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

if nightblade does get poison that could make for an even better rat king build then the strange green fire we have now. this rework is good. can't wait to see what they do with the other classes. the new dk on pts plays so well.

If, could, then.

Then again, IF nightblade even get's poison as it's (only?) element, it will take far too long until this happens. The roadmap states that nightblade is the 5th class that get's refreshed. The picture showcasing ZOS idea for each class hints nothing in that direction for NBs.
And even if, no one playing a poison DK will benefit from that.

I would rather they take chances. instead of a few fire abilities made green we could get a well thought out skill line on another class based around poison.

I love poison. I liked it enough to get that poison skeever mount. I want them to do something else with poison. anything else. green fire ain't it. poison class abilities suck thematically in eso and it deserves better.

But wouldn't you be doing the same thing with a different class? Flipping them green when they're currently not that way?

Why can't we 'take chances' with the DK abilities as well and use something other than how the DK was originally presented. How many years ago was that? Over 10 years and the DK should not evolve from what it was?

Furthermore, I ask this... if them resetting it back to what you think it should be from years ago is a refresh, then what is being refreshed? That's not a factory reset, not a refresh.

The class is being refreshed

It's being refreshed like a 404 error page.

Chilly-McFreeze · January 17

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Poison could also go on Wardens since it's a nature-based damage type and they already do things like summon fungus and stinging swarms. Plants and animals are how most people get poisoned naturally.

I know assassins in fantasy also use poison but the nightblade seems like it has a different magical focus with shadow.

I do understand the loss of the Green Poison Dragon fantasy though for those that liked it.

I tend to agree with this. I think that ice damage should get nyxed from wardens, and they should be the poison dot class. This change would really spice things up. I can't wait. If some players don't like this change, then that will be too bad as we can't hold back changing the game just because a few people are entrenched in the old ways. Switching things up, shaking things up, modernizing the game, and refreshing the game necessarily means players paying the blood tribute of their ways of enjoying the game on the alter of anti-sub-classing mania.

It doesn't bother me so ZOS should take away from those who liked it. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Taking away poison from DK, arguing for stripping frost of THE frost class today... at this point, why not scrap all the current classes and start from blank?

Hey, I don't like lightning on my sorc - why not strip it and make it an aeormancer / physical dmg only class? I mean, crystals should do physical dmg, scamps slashing, clannfears tail whip, hurricane, me moving at high speed through enemies - all that should be physical, right? Shake things up, modernize, if some don't like it, too bad - You see what I did there?

Faulgor · January 17

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Poison could also go on Wardens since it's a nature-based damage type and they already do things like summon fungus and stinging swarms. Plants and animals are how most people get poisoned naturally.

I know assassins in fantasy also use poison but the nightblade seems like it has a different magical focus with shadow.

I do understand the loss of the Green Poison Dragon fantasy though for those that liked it.

I tend to agree with this. I think that ice damage should get nyxed from wardens, and they should be the poison dot class. This change would really spice things up. I can't wait. If some players don't like this change, then that will be too bad as we can't hold back changing the game just because a few people are entrenched in the old ways. Switching things up, shaking things up, modernizing the game, and refreshing the game necessarily means players paying the blood tribute of their ways of enjoying the game on the alter of anti-sub-classing mania.

It doesn't bother me so ZOS should take away from those who liked it. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Taking away poison from DK, arguing for stripping frost of THE frost class today... at this point, why not scrap all the current classes and start from blank?

Hey, I don't like lightning on my sorc - why not strip it and make it an aeormancer / physical dmg only class? I mean, crystals should do physical dmg, scamps slashing, clannfears tail whip, hurricane, me moving at high speed through enemies - all that should be physical, right? Shake things up, modernize, if some don't like it, too bad - You see what I did there?

Funny you tried to use sarcasm but couldn't see theirs.

Chilly-McFreeze · January 17

Faulgor wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Poison could also go on Wardens since it's a nature-based damage type and they already do things like summon fungus and stinging swarms. Plants and animals are how most people get poisoned naturally.

I know assassins in fantasy also use poison but the nightblade seems like it has a different magical focus with shadow.

I do understand the loss of the Green Poison Dragon fantasy though for those that liked it.

I tend to agree with this. I think that ice damage should get nyxed from wardens, and they should be the poison dot class. This change would really spice things up. I can't wait. If some players don't like this change, then that will be too bad as we can't hold back changing the game just because a few people are entrenched in the old ways. Switching things up, shaking things up, modernizing the game, and refreshing the game necessarily means players paying the blood tribute of their ways of enjoying the game on the alter of anti-sub-classing mania.

It doesn't bother me so ZOS should take away from those who liked it. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Taking away poison from DK, arguing for stripping frost of THE frost class today... at this point, why not scrap all the current classes and start from blank?

Hey, I don't like lightning on my sorc - why not strip it and make it an aeormancer / physical dmg only class? I mean, crystals should do physical dmg, scamps slashing, clannfears tail whip, hurricane, me moving at high speed through enemies - all that should be physical, right? Shake things up, modernize, if some don't like it, too bad - You see what I did there?

Funny you tried to use sarcasm but couldn't see theirs.

Fair enough. That's on me.