Cyrodiil Consensus?

aetherix8 · January 16

Following the Cyrodiil Healing Nerf!! discussion, could we say that there is a consensus within the community that the best approach to fix balance in Cyro is (to begin with):

1. Allow only one stack of any skill.

2. Limit shield strength.

Would you agree to applying such changes to Cyrodiil?

Lord_Hev · January 16

Only skill stacking

Considering this is how it used to be, and there's a precedent with the major and minor buff/debuff system being created to combat the abuse of stacking effects, this should be the norm for all sticky buffs. Any HoTs on you hit by others just get their duration refreshed, and any stronger same hot just takes priority in terms of value.

The_Meathead · January 16

Yes

It needs to be both HoTs and Shields, or Ballgroups and others who are able will just lean heavier on the Shields and likely wind up even more relatively powerful than before.

There were a LOT of good suggestions in that giant thread from a lot of people smarter than me, but I truly feel like the best starting point would be to clip HoTs down to one of each kind and limit shields to the whichever single one is the largest cast on a player at the time.

From there, things like RoA, Warden Charm, certain PvE set buffs, Snowtreaders and whatever else can be isolated and considered for potential changes, but it should start with the HoTs AND Shields.

The_Meathead · January 16

Yes

So... of note, I'm glancing over who voted for what just now

And as of the time of this post, six or seven names I recognize as Ballgroup players from previous conversations have voted for 'Only Shield Strength' and one voted for 'No.' Mind you, there's some assumption on my part as to who is what (and I apologize if I got anyone wrong), but it's not terribly hard to figure out in long threads.

More power to them for voting and trying to defend their preferences, not knocking that in the slightest, but it makes me awfully dubious of the chances reducing ONLY Shields would do big things for moving the needle in terms of diminishing the real power of Ballgroups that has been the biggest topic du jour.

It's also worth a chuckle that they voted as a block, rather suddenly, in true Ballgroup fashion. I doubt it was intentional or noteworthy, but man... talk about sticking to your methods.

Just sharing the latter bit for a laugh, I'm not saying it's nefarious.

J18696 · January 16

Yes

Both of these are major issues i do think a hot limit to 1 per unique heal is the solution to pushing healing into a better place

Shields on the other hand I'm not really sure maybe we try to find a way to shift them into major minor system or have diminished returns or maybe we just nerf the major culprit warding contingency

BardokRedSnow · January 17

Yes

Its needed to be a thing for a very long time, stacking I think is more important even than the strength of heals. Though I am still happy to see that being limited. Its already a big advantage to have multiple different heals on you much less multiple instances of the same kind of heal. Its just too much and I really wish zos would stop giving in to the ballgroup crowd and stick to their nerfs for healing when presented.

Lagzee · January 17

Yes

Shield strength needs to be adjusted on shields that can go to other players. Otherwise, ive said it a million times, there is no reason people should be able to stack skills to such a high extent. Limit it to 1, maybe 2. There is more than enough healing and shielding to go around in this game without stacking HoTs.

The way it is now these groups can just spec to all be support builds and just get ridiculous damage when its time to ult

aetherix8 · January 17

Only skill stacking

Thank you for voting! I hope more people will add their voice to this question.

My primary goal is to see whether the PvP community agrees on some points concerning Cyrodiil balance. Secondly, if there is a consensus, I believe it important for the devs to be able to see it clearly. Some threads are full of valuable feedback, but it gets diluted by personal attacks and going in all directions for far too many pages. No wonder the devs have a hard time figuring out what a good change could represent.

The_Meathead wrote: »

So... of note, I'm glancing over who voted for what just now

And as of the time of this post, six or seven names I recognize as Ballgroup players from previous conversations have voted for 'Only Shield Strength' and one voted for 'No.' Mind you, there's some assumption on my part as to who is what (and I apologize if I got anyone wrong), but it's not terribly hard to figure out in long threads.

More power to them for voting and trying to defend their preferences, not knocking that in the slightest, but it makes me awfully dubious of the chances reducing ONLY Shields would do big things for moving the needle in terms of diminishing the real power of Ballgroups that has been the biggest topic du jour.

It's also worth a chuckle that they voted as a block, rather suddenly, in true Ballgroup fashion. I doubt it was intentional or noteworthy, but man... talk about sticking to your methods.

Just sharing the latter bit for a laugh, I'm not saying it's nefarious.

I agree with your observation, and this distribution of votes suggests that allowing only one stack of any ability at any time would affect ballgroups a lot. It might be that no other changes would be necessary to make Cyrodiil player experience healthier. Of course, ballgroups aren’t the only issue, but they are the primary concern for many players - it is impossible to have any PvP discussion without any mention of ballgroups.

I believe that forbidding anyone from running around Cyrodiil with 12 echoing vigors ticking at all times, on top of other heals, buffs and shields, would be a great change. Cyrodiil is designed for group play but ESO is a “play as you want” environment that should support also solo and small scale play styles. Also, Cyrodiil isn’t a hm trial and PvPers aren’t NPC mobs, they shouldn’t be treated as such by trial groups, I find that disrespectful.

I agree that organized groups should be stronger than PuGs or solos, but right now their power is far too over tuned.

Yudo · January 17

Only skill stacking

The fix should be at scale imo, so simply saying "shield nerf" affects the balance for everyone.
Just start by eliminating anything that is cross heal / stacking and go from there.
This alone will eliminate off-healers, which is everyone in a ball group and require them to have dedicated healers.

Turtle_Bot · January 17

Yes

While I agreed with the general sentiment that the proposed idea (3 sticky HoTs = 50% healing nerf) was not the way to address these issues within Cyrodiil, I am of the opinion that something has to change and there is no longer the time left to just sit and wait for "the perfect solution" to be agreed upon, especially with so many vested interests arguing in very bad faith on the subject.

So while I still prefer limiting stacking mechanics in general, starting with sticky HoTs (actual sticky HoTs not other abilities that have tiny HoTs added on as bonuses such as entropy, twin slashes, searing claw, etc.) and damage shields, to one instance per person (with highest value overriding smaller values and simply being refreshed if another instance is cast on someone), but also looking into group buffs/group support sets, etc. in the future, I was at least willing to test out an adjusted version of the original proposed 3 HoT limit with blanket reduced healing and work from there while ZOS looks into developing something closer to the limited stacking concept outlined above.

heimdall14_9 · January 17

Yes

YES from all accounts (PC and PSN) I own ....

this would help in many ways to bring the fun back into PVP Cyrodiil for ALL LEVEL & PLAYSTYLES and might help fight the ego issue thats became toxic within Cyrodiil where we cant even give an opinion backed by reason's and actions without getting called an lair when others seen or posting about the same things but that parts on the players not zos or dev team to fix

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin @zos_( WHOEVER MAKES THE RULES) can the DEVELOPMENT TEAM ask this on ALL eso social media places and use IT for the next update for PVP HEALING , THANK YOU

aetherix8 · January 17

Only skill stacking

Based on the current trend of this poll, it can be safely said that there is no consensus in the PvP community. If there is a point that I missed in this poll, but everyone agrees on, please feel free to mention it.

Other than that, I would sincerly appreciate it if those who voted 'No' and 'Other' shared what's on their minds, what argument made them vote the way they did. Just please try and avoid walls of text; let's keep it simple, like a summary.

reazea · January 17

Yes

aetherix8 wrote: »

Based on the current trend of this poll, it can be safely said that there is no consensus in the PvP community. If there is a point that I missed in this poll, but everyone agrees on, please feel free to mention it.

Other than that, I would sincerely appreciate it if those who voted 'No' and 'Other' shared what's on their minds, what argument made them vote the way they did. Just please try and avoid walls of text; let's keep it simple, like a summary.

On the contrary. 45% of respondents say they want to see the skill stacking and shield stacking removed. Another 44% want either heal or shield stacking removed. That's 88% that want one or both heal and shield stacking removed from Cyrodiil.

That's not a lack of consensus, that's a pretty strong consensus.

aetherix8 · January 17

Only skill stacking

reazea wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Based on the current trend of this poll, it can be safely said that there is no consensus in the PvP community. If there is a point that I missed in this poll, but everyone agrees on, please feel free to mention it.

Other than that, I would sincerely appreciate it if those who voted 'No' and 'Other' shared what's on their minds, what argument made them vote the way they did. Just please try and avoid walls of text; let's keep it simple, like a summary.

On the contrary. 45% of respondents say they want to see the skill stacking and shield stacking removed. Another 44% want either heal or shield stacking removed. That's 88% that want one or both heal and shield stacking removed from Cyrodiil.

That's not a lack of consensus, that's a pretty strong consensus.

Most people would agree with at least one of the proposed changes, so yes, I guess you're right, I must have been thinking about unanimity while typing.

YandereGirlfriend · January 17

Only skill stacking

Definitely in favor of only one copy of a given healing/shielding morph operating on a player.

But the proposal for shields was ambiguous enough for me not to vote for it.

I think that you want to ensure as much continuity with PvE rules and combat mechanics as is possible with any change. So I disfavor highly arbitrary and meta-gamey restrictions like "shields can only reach X% of a target's Max HP" or "players may only have Y shields on them at a given time". Not only do those approaches come with their own significant drawbacks, edge-cases, and overhead, but they do not articulate with the rest of the game's mechanics at all and so we should, IMO, pull other levers first for balancing shields.

In my eyes, the biggest two offending skills are, without a doubt, Warding Burst and Shielding Conti. Why? Because they are mundane abilities that can and are spammed nearly every GCD during combat, and, when you build for it, exceed ultimate-like levels of shielding without having to... use an actual ultimate. If you look at ballgroup logs for shields, those two abilities always top the charts.

The skills behave that way because they, for whatever bad reason or oversight, scale with Max HP and not exclusively with Max Resources as they should. So groups pump-up Max HP on one caster and then use them to spam giant HP-inflated shields on everyone else. As a rule, self-shields meant for PvE tanks should be the only shields to scale with Max HP and everything else should scale from Max Resources.

That simple change would completely neuter the Scribing shields for PvP groups and groups would likely stop using them altogether as a result (I know that my group would), eliminating a huge portion of their overall shield stack and relegating what remains to the domain of ultimates, which, IMO, should be strong.

From there, you can simply use the existing Battle Spirit mechanics to globally tune shield strength if it was still necessary, to perhaps 45% strength.

AD42 · January 17

No

No. Because what you propose to do affects PvE. The developers won't do this. Accordingly, each of your thoughtless votes in this matter brings you closer to the original option from the developers. Which is the real reason.
Then the question is still what to do with all the healing reduction effects that have already been added?

heimdall14_9 · January 17

Yes

AD42 wrote: »

No. Because what you propose to do affects PvE. The developers won't do this. Accordingly, each of your thoughtless votes in this matter brings you closer to the original option from the developers. Which is the real reason.
Then the question is still what to do with all the healing reduction effects that have already been added?

you not UNDERSTANDING BATTLE SPIRIT ??????

its only used for PVP nothing to do with PVE at alll !!!!!!!!!

heimdall14_9 · January 17

Yes

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely in favor of only one copy of a given healing/shielding morph operating on a player.

But the proposal for shields was ambiguous enough for me not to vote for it.

I think that you want to ensure as much continuity with PvE rules and combat mechanics as is possible with any change. So I disfavor highly arbitrary and meta-gamey restrictions like "shields can only reach X% of a target's Max HP" or "players may only have Y shields on them at a given time". Not only do those approaches come with their own significant drawbacks, edge-cases, and overhead, but they do not articulate with the rest of the game's mechanics at all and so we should, IMO, pull other levers first for balancing shields.

In my eyes, the biggest two offending skills are, without a doubt, Warding Burst and Shielding Conti. Why? Because they are mundane abilities that can and are spammed nearly every GCD during combat, and, when you build for it, exceed ultimate-like levels of shielding without having to... use an actual ultimate. If you look at ballgroup logs for shields, those two abilities always top the charts.

The skills behave that way because they, for whatever bad reason or oversight, scale with Max HP and not exclusively with Max Resources as they should. So groups pump-up Max HP on one caster and then use them to spam giant HP-inflated shields on everyone else. As a rule, self-shields meant for PvE tanks should be the only shields to scale with Max HP and everything else should scale from Max Resources.

That simple change would completely neuter the Scribing shields for PvP groups and groups would likely stop using them altogether as a result (I know that my group would), eliminating a huge portion of their overall shield stack and relegating what remains to the domain of ultimates, which, IMO, should be strong.

From there, you can simply use the existing Battle Spirit mechanics to globally tune shield strength if it was still necessary, to perhaps 45% strength.

once you used PvE as part of your reasoning you lost me

we are talking about an BATTLE SPIRIT change that well do 0 change to how PvE works and how PvE works has no place in the matter how PvP should work , thats been the biggest factor with PVP has been out of control for so long PVE being effected by change to skills ... DONT LET AN CHANGE TO BATTLE SPIRIT GET BOLOCKED FOR THE SAME ABUSED REASON

Lagzee · January 18

Yes

AD42 wrote: »

No. Because what you propose to do affects PvE. The developers won't do this. Accordingly, each of your thoughtless votes in this matter brings you closer to the original option from the developers. Which is the real reason.
Then the question is still what to do with all the healing reduction effects that have already been added?

why would it effect pve? this has all been stirred up by a proposed 50% healing nerf to pvp in cyrodiil. nothing to do with pve.

heimdall14_9 · January 18

Yes

Lagzee wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

No. Because what you propose to do affects PvE. The developers won't do this. Accordingly, each of your thoughtless votes in this matter brings you closer to the original option from the developers. Which is the real reason.
Then the question is still what to do with all the healing reduction effects that have already been added?

why would it effect pve? this has all been stirred up by a proposed 50% healing nerf to pvp in cyrodiil. nothing to do with pve.

i think they was trolling the post with an thoughtless PVE post about thoughtless PVP voters

Radiate77 · January 18

Yes

I would differentiate between shielding yourself and others when referring to a limit on shielding.

All skills that shield allies should be severely less, like Lunar Bastion and Igneous Shield strength, without killing shield stacking for solo players in PvP.

aetherix8 · January 18

Only skill stacking

AD42 wrote: »

No. Because what you propose to do affects PvE. The developers won't do this. Accordingly, each of your thoughtless votes in this matter brings you closer to the original option from the developers. Which is the real reason.
Then the question is still what to do with all the healing reduction effects that have already been added?

To be fair, PvPers have to deal with 10+ years of "thoughtless" changes to the game — as in bearing only PvE in mind — and with shattering PvP balance further every time with new trial / dungeon sets etc.

I'm NOT saying that the PvE turn has now come, all the contrary, the devs need to take both modes into account when changing their game. So PvP changes are applied through Battle Spirit, to split the balancing of two distinct modes.

Also, did the revert get reverted and I missed it somehow? Devs posted recently that these healing debuff changes will be removed starting PTS2, and the team will explore other options that I'm not sure are already existing for testing during the remaining cycle.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/687450/cyrodiil-healing-nerf/p11

The_Meathead · January 18

Yes

reazea wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Based on the current trend of this poll, it can be safely said that there is no consensus in the PvP community. If there is a point that I missed in this poll, but everyone agrees on, please feel free to mention it.

Other than that, I would sincerely appreciate it if those who voted 'No' and 'Other' shared what's on their minds, what argument made them vote the way they did. Just please try and avoid walls of text; let's keep it simple, like a summary.

On the contrary. 45% of respondents say they want to see the skill stacking and shield stacking removed. Another 44% want either heal or shield stacking removed. That's 88% that want one or both heal and shield stacking removed from Cyrodiil.

That's not a lack of consensus, that's a pretty strong consensus.

... and it just grows every time a new interaction happens with the Poll.

It's not nearly enough of a sample size to really give full representation, I'd imagine, but it's hopefully noted by our far-more-interactive ZOS friendos who are considering the next option for the PTS. Doesn't sound like players want things halfway done or unnecessarily complex, and many/most want the stacking of HoTs hard limited to a single instance per.

I'm optimistic in a way I haven't felt in years. Greyhost/current Cyrodiil and what I do for gathering sets/mats/etc to support that is the biggest part of my gameplay, as I'm sure it is for so many. That ZOS is finally zeroing in on something that's been growing more problematic there every patch is phenomenal.

Keep voicing it, they're listening.

AD42 · January 18

No

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely in favor of only one copy of a given healing/shielding morph operating on a player.

But the proposal for shields was ambiguous enough for me not to vote for it.

I think that you want to ensure as much continuity with PvE rules and combat mechanics as is possible with any change. So I disfavor highly arbitrary and meta-gamey restrictions like "shields can only reach X% of a target's Max HP" or "players may only have Y shields on them at a given time". Not only do those approaches come with their own significant drawbacks, edge-cases, and overhead, but they do not articulate with the rest of the game's mechanics at all and so we should, IMO, pull other levers first for balancing shields.

In my eyes, the biggest two offending skills are, without a doubt, Warding Burst and Shielding Conti. Why? Because they are mundane abilities that can and are spammed nearly every GCD during combat, and, when you build for it, exceed ultimate-like levels of shielding without having to... use an actual ultimate. If you look at ballgroup logs for shields, those two abilities always top the charts.

The skills behave that way because they, for whatever bad reason or oversight, scale with Max HP and not exclusively with Max Resources as they should. So groups pump-up Max HP on one caster and then use them to spam giant HP-inflated shields on everyone else. As a rule, self-shields meant for PvE tanks should be the only shields to scale with Max HP and everything else should scale from Max Resources.

That simple change would completely neuter the Scribing shields for PvP groups and groups would likely stop using them altogether as a result (I know that my group would), eliminating a huge portion of their overall shield stack and relegating what remains to the domain of ultimates, which, IMO, should be strong.

From there, you can simply use the existing Battle Spirit mechanics to globally tune shield strength if it was still necessary, to perhaps 45% strength.

once you used PvE as part of your reasoning you lost me

we are talking about an BATTLE SPIRIT change that well do 0 change to how PvE works and how PvE works has no place in the matter how PvP should work , thats been the biggest factor with PVP has been out of control for so long PVE being effected by change to skills ... DONT LET AN CHANGE TO BATTLE SPIRIT GET BOLOCKED FOR THE SAME ABUSED REASON

You don't understand that BATTLE SPIRIT is a kind of buff/debuff. It doesn't allow you to change skill mechanics. And all the suggestions in this thread are about skill changes.
Any skill change affects PVE. If I have to explain this to you, maybe you shouldn't post your opinion here. You're too incompetent.

J18696 · January 18

Yes

AD42 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely in favor of only one copy of a given healing/shielding morph operating on a player.

But the proposal for shields was ambiguous enough for me not to vote for it.

I think that you want to ensure as much continuity with PvE rules and combat mechanics as is possible with any change. So I disfavor highly arbitrary and meta-gamey restrictions like "shields can only reach X% of a target's Max HP" or "players may only have Y shields on them at a given time". Not only do those approaches come with their own significant drawbacks, edge-cases, and overhead, but they do not articulate with the rest of the game's mechanics at all and so we should, IMO, pull other levers first for balancing shields.

In my eyes, the biggest two offending skills are, without a doubt, Warding Burst and Shielding Conti. Why? Because they are mundane abilities that can and are spammed nearly every GCD during combat, and, when you build for it, exceed ultimate-like levels of shielding without having to... use an actual ultimate. If you look at ballgroup logs for shields, those two abilities always top the charts.

The skills behave that way because they, for whatever bad reason or oversight, scale with Max HP and not exclusively with Max Resources as they should. So groups pump-up Max HP on one caster and then use them to spam giant HP-inflated shields on everyone else. As a rule, self-shields meant for PvE tanks should be the only shields to scale with Max HP and everything else should scale from Max Resources.

That simple change would completely neuter the Scribing shields for PvP groups and groups would likely stop using them altogether as a result (I know that my group would), eliminating a huge portion of their overall shield stack and relegating what remains to the domain of ultimates, which, IMO, should be strong.

From there, you can simply use the existing Battle Spirit mechanics to globally tune shield strength if it was still necessary, to perhaps 45% strength.

once you used PvE as part of your reasoning you lost me

we are talking about an BATTLE SPIRIT change that well do 0 change to how PvE works and how PvE works has no place in the matter how PvP should work , thats been the biggest factor with PVP has been out of control for so long PVE being effected by change to skills ... DONT LET AN CHANGE TO BATTLE SPIRIT GET BOLOCKED FOR THE SAME ABUSED REASON

You don't understand that BATTLE SPIRIT is a kind of buff/debuff. It doesn't allow you to change skill mechanics. And all the suggestions in this thread are about skill changes.
Any skill change affects PVE. If I have to explain this to you, maybe you shouldn't post your opinion here. You're too incompetent.

That's exactly in line with how people want them to fix this problem though modify battlespirit tobe able to change how skills function rather than just buff/debuff it dosnt matter how long it takes to implement so long as its a goal for the future

heimdall14_9 · January 18

Yes

AD42 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely in favor of only one copy of a given healing/shielding morph operating on a player.

But the proposal for shields was ambiguous enough for me not to vote for it.

I think that you want to ensure as much continuity with PvE rules and combat mechanics as is possible with any change. So I disfavor highly arbitrary and meta-gamey restrictions like "shields can only reach X% of a target's Max HP" or "players may only have Y shields on them at a given time". Not only do those approaches come with their own significant drawbacks, edge-cases, and overhead, but they do not articulate with the rest of the game's mechanics at all and so we should, IMO, pull other levers first for balancing shields.

In my eyes, the biggest two offending skills are, without a doubt, Warding Burst and Shielding Conti. Why? Because they are mundane abilities that can and are spammed nearly every GCD during combat, and, when you build for it, exceed ultimate-like levels of shielding without having to... use an actual ultimate. If you look at ballgroup logs for shields, those two abilities always top the charts.

The skills behave that way because they, for whatever bad reason or oversight, scale with Max HP and not exclusively with Max Resources as they should. So groups pump-up Max HP on one caster and then use them to spam giant HP-inflated shields on everyone else. As a rule, self-shields meant for PvE tanks should be the only shields to scale with Max HP and everything else should scale from Max Resources.

That simple change would completely neuter the Scribing shields for PvP groups and groups would likely stop using them altogether as a result (I know that my group would), eliminating a huge portion of their overall shield stack and relegating what remains to the domain of ultimates, which, IMO, should be strong.

From there, you can simply use the existing Battle Spirit mechanics to globally tune shield strength if it was still necessary, to perhaps 45% strength.

once you used PvE as part of your reasoning you lost me

we are talking about an BATTLE SPIRIT change that well do 0 change to how PvE works and how PvE works has no place in the matter how PvP should work , thats been the biggest factor with PVP has been out of control for so long PVE being effected by change to skills ... DONT LET AN CHANGE TO BATTLE SPIRIT GET BOLOCKED FOR THE SAME ABUSED REASON

You don't understand that BATTLE SPIRIT is a kind of buff/debuff. It doesn't allow you to change skill mechanics. And all the suggestions in this thread are about skill changes.
Any skill change affects PVE. If I have to explain this to you, maybe you shouldn't post your opinion here. You're too incompetent.

BATTLE SPIRIT is an control system for PVP it can control buffs de-buffs limit damage limit healing , limit ANYTHING it wants to and NEVER effect PVE in any manner , you might want to get an better understanding of BATTLE SPIRIT if all you think of it as just an buff/debuff lol

heimdall14_9 · January 18

Yes

@AD42
Key Effects of Battle Spirit: Reduced Burst Damage: By lowering outgoing damage and increasing health, it prevents instant one-shot kills.Healing Reduction: Healing received is reduced by roughly \(55\%\), making survival rely on mitigation rather than just burst healing.Shield Nerf: Damage shields are \(50\%\) less effective.Stat Scaling: Players below Champion Point (CP) 160 are scaled up to CP 160, and all participants gain bonus Health.Range Increase: Ability ranges of 28 meters or more are increased by 8 meters.Pre-stacking Restrictions: Specific skills, such as Merciless Resolve, cannot be pre-stacked before combat while Battle Spirit is active.

hmmmm it already seems BATTLE SPIRIT changes how skills work ABILITY RANGE and PRE-STACKING

YandereGirlfriend · January 18

Only skill stacking

J18696 wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely in favor of only one copy of a given healing/shielding morph operating on a player.

But the proposal for shields was ambiguous enough for me not to vote for it.

I think that you want to ensure as much continuity with PvE rules and combat mechanics as is possible with any change. So I disfavor highly arbitrary and meta-gamey restrictions like "shields can only reach X% of a target's Max HP" or "players may only have Y shields on them at a given time". Not only do those approaches come with their own significant drawbacks, edge-cases, and overhead, but they do not articulate with the rest of the game's mechanics at all and so we should, IMO, pull other levers first for balancing shields.

In my eyes, the biggest two offending skills are, without a doubt, Warding Burst and Shielding Conti. Why? Because they are mundane abilities that can and are spammed nearly every GCD during combat, and, when you build for it, exceed ultimate-like levels of shielding without having to... use an actual ultimate. If you look at ballgroup logs for shields, those two abilities always top the charts.

The skills behave that way because they, for whatever bad reason or oversight, scale with Max HP and not exclusively with Max Resources as they should. So groups pump-up Max HP on one caster and then use them to spam giant HP-inflated shields on everyone else. As a rule, self-shields meant for PvE tanks should be the only shields to scale with Max HP and everything else should scale from Max Resources.

That simple change would completely neuter the Scribing shields for PvP groups and groups would likely stop using them altogether as a result (I know that my group would), eliminating a huge portion of their overall shield stack and relegating what remains to the domain of ultimates, which, IMO, should be strong.

From there, you can simply use the existing Battle Spirit mechanics to globally tune shield strength if it was still necessary, to perhaps 45% strength.

once you used PvE as part of your reasoning you lost me

we are talking about an BATTLE SPIRIT change that well do 0 change to how PvE works and how PvE works has no place in the matter how PvP should work , thats been the biggest factor with PVP has been out of control for so long PVE being effected by change to skills ... DONT LET AN CHANGE TO BATTLE SPIRIT GET BOLOCKED FOR THE SAME ABUSED REASON

You don't understand that BATTLE SPIRIT is a kind of buff/debuff. It doesn't allow you to change skill mechanics. And all the suggestions in this thread are about skill changes.
Any skill change affects PVE. If I have to explain this to you, maybe you shouldn't post your opinion here. You're too incompetent.

That's exactly in line with how people want them to fix this problem though modify battlespirit tobe able to change how skills function rather than just buff/debuff it dosnt matter how long it takes to implement so long as its a goal for the future

I think it is more that we do not want skills to function completely differently between the two modes. We literally already have that and it's called Vengeance. I, for one, do not want any semblance of Vengeance or Vengeance-like thinking in my Grey Host.

I also do not want a ton of new conditional logic bloating-up the already chugging servers. Which is why using the existing access points to tweak and balance aspects of the game is preferable to needlessly complicated and overengineered "solutions".

heimdall14_9 · January 18

Yes

AD42 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely in favor of only one copy of a given healing/shielding morph operating on a player.

But the proposal for shields was ambiguous enough for me not to vote for it.

I think that you want to ensure as much continuity with PvE rules and combat mechanics as is possible with any change. So I disfavor highly arbitrary and meta-gamey restrictions like "shields can only reach X% of a target's Max HP" or "players may only have Y shields on them at a given time". Not only do those approaches come with their own significant drawbacks, edge-cases, and overhead, but they do not articulate with the rest of the game's mechanics at all and so we should, IMO, pull other levers first for balancing shields.

In my eyes, the biggest two offending skills are, without a doubt, Warding Burst and Shielding Conti. Why? Because they are mundane abilities that can and are spammed nearly every GCD during combat, and, when you build for it, exceed ultimate-like levels of shielding without having to... use an actual ultimate. If you look at ballgroup logs for shields, those two abilities always top the charts.

The skills behave that way because they, for whatever bad reason or oversight, scale with Max HP and not exclusively with Max Resources as they should. So groups pump-up Max HP on one caster and then use them to spam giant HP-inflated shields on everyone else. As a rule, self-shields meant for PvE tanks should be the only shields to scale with Max HP and everything else should scale from Max Resources.

That simple change would completely neuter the Scribing shields for PvP groups and groups would likely stop using them altogether as a result (I know that my group would), eliminating a huge portion of their overall shield stack and relegating what remains to the domain of ultimates, which, IMO, should be strong.

From there, you can simply use the existing Battle Spirit mechanics to globally tune shield strength if it was still necessary, to perhaps 45% strength.

once you used PvE as part of your reasoning you lost me

we are talking about an BATTLE SPIRIT change that well do 0 change to how PvE works and how PvE works has no place in the matter how PvP should work , thats been the biggest factor with PVP has been out of control for so long PVE being effected by change to skills ... DONT LET AN CHANGE TO BATTLE SPIRIT GET BOLOCKED FOR THE SAME ABUSED REASON

You don't understand that BATTLE SPIRIT is a kind of buff/debuff. It doesn't allow you to change skill mechanics. And all the suggestions in this thread are about skill changes.
Any skill change affects PVE. If I have to explain this to you, maybe you shouldn't post your opinion here. You're too incompetent.

back your post with facts or do you not have any????

(edited so as not to get band)

heimdall14_9 · 1:51AM

Yes

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_Kevin

here is an BATTLE SPIRIT SYSTEM that will give better control to the DEV TEAM when needing to adjust #s or % to things within the PVP environment and make PVP an better place to have fun

Key Battle Spirit Metrics
Health: Increased by 5,000.
Healing Received: Decreased by 55%. Limits HOTs to 1 per source ( non casted HOTs ) well be decreased by 20% of casters strength
Damage Taken : Decreased by 55% Block Mitigation Cap at 80%
Shield Strength: Decreased by 50%. Limits shields to 1 per source ( non casted shields) well be decreased by 40% of casters strength
Health Recovery: Decreased by 50%.
Range Modifier: Ability range of 28 meters or more is increased by 8 meters
Pre-stacking Restrictions: Specific skills, such as Merciless Resolve, cannot be pre-stacked before combat while Battle Spirit is active.
Stat Scaling: Players below Champion Point (CP) 160 are scaled up to CP 160,
Movement Speed Cap of 85%
Critical Damage Done Decreased by 15%
Damaging Proc Sets Damage Decreased by 50%

this would make for an healthy environment for all skill levels of the game while giving the dev team the ability to control greater aspects of the game that is most players pain points ,To have BATTLE SPIRIT and not use it to its full potential after letting it be ignored for so long is beyond me but with the TEAM shining NEW LIGHT and LIFE into the battle spirit system can we please get an FULL SYSTEM not just half of one ?????

J18696 · 2:13AM

Yes

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

J18696 wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely in favor of only one copy of a given healing/shielding morph operating on a player.

But the proposal for shields was ambiguous enough for me not to vote for it.

I think that you want to ensure as much continuity with PvE rules and combat mechanics as is possible with any change. So I disfavor highly arbitrary and meta-gamey restrictions like "shields can only reach X% of a target's Max HP" or "players may only have Y shields on them at a given time". Not only do those approaches come with their own significant drawbacks, edge-cases, and overhead, but they do not articulate with the rest of the game's mechanics at all and so we should, IMO, pull other levers first for balancing shields.

In my eyes, the biggest two offending skills are, without a doubt, Warding Burst and Shielding Conti. Why? Because they are mundane abilities that can and are spammed nearly every GCD during combat, and, when you build for it, exceed ultimate-like levels of shielding without having to... use an actual ultimate. If you look at ballgroup logs for shields, those two abilities always top the charts.

The skills behave that way because they, for whatever bad reason or oversight, scale with Max HP and not exclusively with Max Resources as they should. So groups pump-up Max HP on one caster and then use them to spam giant HP-inflated shields on everyone else. As a rule, self-shields meant for PvE tanks should be the only shields to scale with Max HP and everything else should scale from Max Resources.

That simple change would completely neuter the Scribing shields for PvP groups and groups would likely stop using them altogether as a result (I know that my group would), eliminating a huge portion of their overall shield stack and relegating what remains to the domain of ultimates, which, IMO, should be strong.

From there, you can simply use the existing Battle Spirit mechanics to globally tune shield strength if it was still necessary, to perhaps 45% strength.

once you used PvE as part of your reasoning you lost me

we are talking about an BATTLE SPIRIT change that well do 0 change to how PvE works and how PvE works has no place in the matter how PvP should work , thats been the biggest factor with PVP has been out of control for so long PVE being effected by change to skills ... DONT LET AN CHANGE TO BATTLE SPIRIT GET BOLOCKED FOR THE SAME ABUSED REASON

You don't understand that BATTLE SPIRIT is a kind of buff/debuff. It doesn't allow you to change skill mechanics. And all the suggestions in this thread are about skill changes.
Any skill change affects PVE. If I have to explain this to you, maybe you shouldn't post your opinion here. You're too incompetent.

That's exactly in line with how people want them to fix this problem though modify battlespirit tobe able to change how skills function rather than just buff/debuff it dosnt matter how long it takes to implement so long as its a goal for the future

I think it is more that we do not want skills to function completely differently between the two modes. We literally already have that and it's called Vengeance. I, for one, do not want any semblance of Vengeance or Vengeance-like thinking in my Grey Host.

I also do not want a ton of new conditional logic bloating-up the already chugging servers. Which is why using the existing access points to tweak and balance aspects of the game is preferable to needlessly complicated and overengineered "solutions".

Im not saying that i want there tobe a full separation of balance and function between skills the game code might not allow them to not allow hots to limit themselves to 1 per target without having it affect both pve and pvp at the same time thats probably why they cant just do this currently it would need tobe adjusted so this behaviour can be done with battlespirit and not effect pve

Side note adding a new check to see if a hot would need tobe replaced rather than stack extra performance load would be negligible since you are gaining performance from not having 5+ of the same effect ticking away most likely

The Elder Scrolls Online

Cyrodiil Consensus?

Cyrodiil Consensus? 62 votes