Class Identity Refresh for Sorc and Warden

noblecron · January 14

I think the biggest concern and question I have is will entire skill lines be removed. Like is sorc''s lightning going from sorc to Warden to fit the nature theme?

ZhuJiuyin · January 15

noblecron wrote: »

I think the biggest concern and question I have is will entire skill lines be removed. Like is sorc''s lightning going from sorc to Warden to fit the nature theme?

This is also a concern for some players, because the new class descriptions emphasize the power of seasons for Wardens, potentially making them elementalists. Sorcerers, on the other hand, emphasize dark magic and daedra, making no mention of shock. Furthermore, the removal of poison damage from the New DK makes it difficult not to worry that other reworked classes will also be removed, or forced into some unconsensual build.

Although ZOS conducted a survey last year to gather player feedback, we don't know the survey results or the official conclusions. Knowing the survey results in advance and allowing for further player discussion might help future class reworks better meet player expectations.

Desiato · January 15

robpr wrote: »

I think they expect everyone to use Soul of the Flame and it restores both resources. With SotF, Combustion and Take Flight you can sustain on both max stam and max mag specs.

In my experience on pts, there's no need to run soul of flame because sustain is effortless. I wasn't implying there was a sustain issue. Engulfing Dragonfire is extremely inexpensive at the moment.

I expected it to have a per-second cost like fatecarver and radiant destruction and it would also make sense for it to alternate between magicka and stamina based on the main resource as the stamina morph is a completely different ability.

noblecron · January 15

I just had a hilarious ironic thought

Half of us get rid of our sorcs cause of the increase theme to Daedric pacts and dark magic and then a few months later after the refresh we get pet skill styles that are aedric theme or Magne ge theme changing their looks completely XD

Nemesis7884 · January 15

noblecron wrote: »

I think the biggest concern and question I have is will entire skill lines be removed. Like is sorc''s lightning going from sorc to Warden to fit the nature theme?

While I personally would like such a strong rework of the skill lines to REALLY rethink class identity; looking at the DK I think this is very unlikely due to time constraints...

I think we will mostly see a stronger focus on the existing skill lines meaning

centering the classes around existing themes and skill lines (e.g. ice & nature for Warden)
upgrading visuals
adapting some skills / values
reshuffling some skills to balance the skill lines more

What I dont think we will see due to time constraints
change of theme (e.g. Warden gets now lightning and sorcerer gets other themes) or completely new / different skills since this would require complete rework of classes, identities and animations from ground up

Greek_Hellspawn · January 15

If the new warden theme is seasons and sorc is daedra/summons, then it kinda makes sense to trade animal companions and storm calling.

This way warden now has winter spring and generally more weathery theme.

And sorc now has more lines to play around the summoning theme.

Of course they would have to adapt the animations of each skill line to better fit the classes.

ZhuJiuyin · January 15

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

If the new warden theme is seasons and sorc is daedra/summons, then it kinda makes sense to trade animal companions and storm calling.

This way warden now has winter spring and generally more weathery theme.

And sorc now has more lines to play around the summoning theme.

Of course they would have to adapt the animations of each skill line to better fit the classes.

I believe many Sorcerer players won't welcome a strengthening of the Sorcerer summoning theme, especially given the current poor pet system. Forcibly enhancing the summoning theme will only make more people dislike this playstyle.

Currently, ESO's pet system has several shortcomings:

1. Lack of interaction: Whether Sorcerer or Warden, pets' active and passive abilities are primarily offensive, with few other abilities, making players feel a lack of interaction with their pets. Twilight Matriarch is one of the few due to her active ability is to heal multiple targets. I personally think this is the most successful pet design.

2. The pet system lacks compatibility: Pets need to occupy two slots, and for a sorc, the pet build requires 6 slots, 4 for permanent pets, 1 for Daedric Prey, and 1 for Storm Atronach. Otherwise, there will be a serious loss of DPS. However, this not only seriously excludes the possibility of using other skills, but also makes the build monotonous. In addition, as mentioned earlier, pets lack interactivity, making the pet system even more boring.

3.Blocking vision: In some cases, pets will block the player's field of vision, resulting in a less than pleasant experience. Especially for Twilight and Maw of the Inferna, it would be great if we could find a solution that doesn't cancel the summon and doesn't block Vision.

4. Meaningless Waste and Burden: Resummoning a pet upon player death is extremely time-consuming and resource-intensive, but this waste severely impacts the endgame experience, especially when you finally manage to resummon your pet only to find your resources depleted. Furthermore, the reduced movement speed during pet summoning can lead to further death due to the inability to dodge.

Therefore, I would much rather see the reworked Sorcerer strengthen the shock and dark magic theme and be redefined as a Destruction Mage.

Greek_Hellspawn · January 15

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

If the new warden theme is seasons and sorc is daedra/summons, then it kinda makes sense to trade animal companions and storm calling.

This way warden now has winter spring and generally more weathery theme.

And sorc now has more lines to play around the summoning theme.

Of course they would have to adapt the animations of each skill line to better fit the classes.

I believe many Sorcerer players won't welcome a strengthening of the Sorcerer summoning theme, especially given the current poor pet system. Forcibly enhancing the summoning theme will only make more people dislike this playstyle.

Currently, ESO's pet system has several shortcomings:

1. Lack of interaction: Whether Sorcerer or Warden, pets' active and passive abilities are primarily offensive, with few other abilities, making players feel a lack of interaction with their pets. Twilight Matriarch is one of the few due to her active ability is to heal multiple targets. I personally think this is the most successful pet design.

2. The pet system lacks compatibility: Pets need to occupy two slots, and for a sorc, the pet build requires 6 slots, 4 for permanent pets, 1 for Daedric Prey, and 1 for Storm Atronach. Otherwise, there will be a serious loss of DPS. However, this not only seriously excludes the possibility of using other skills, but also makes the build monotonous. In addition, as mentioned earlier, pets lack interactivity, making the pet system even more boring.

3.Blocking vision: In some cases, pets will block the player's field of vision, resulting in a less than pleasant experience. Especially for Twilight and Maw of the Inferna, it would be great if we could find a solution that doesn't cancel the summon and doesn't block Vision.

4. Meaningless Waste and Burden: Resummoning a pet upon player death is extremely time-consuming and resource-intensive, but this waste severely impacts the endgame experience, especially when you finally manage to resummon your pet only to find your resources depleted. Furthermore, the reduced movement speed during pet summoning can lead to further death due to the inability to dodge.

Therefore, I would much rather see the reworked Sorcerer strengthen the shock and dark magic theme and be redefined as a Destruction Mage.

I totally agree with you, the only way i can think to make the summoning theme work is making every pet 1 slot.

It could be like every summon is essentially an ability doing it's effect then disappearing, like necromancer summons, or like current vengeance sorc.

jaws343 · January 15

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Personally, I'd prefer to emphasize Sorc's unique characteristics as a mage and free Sorc from the constraints of pets. I initially chose Sorc for its Destruction magic, such as lightning and dark magic, not to become a zookeeper wielding a dagger.

When they asked for class feedback last year, that was one of my takes. Remove the pet reliance, reshuffle the skill line to be more intuitive and provide a focus for either magic or shock damage. As it is, the damage sources are all over the place.

MincMincMinc · January 15

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

If the new warden theme is seasons and sorc is daedra/summons, then it kinda makes sense to trade animal companions and storm calling.

This way warden now has winter spring and generally more weathery theme.

And sorc now has more lines to play around the summoning theme.

Of course they would have to adapt the animations of each skill line to better fit the classes.

I believe many Sorcerer players won't welcome a strengthening of the Sorcerer summoning theme, especially given the current poor pet system. Forcibly enhancing the summoning theme will only make more people dislike this playstyle.

Currently, ESO's pet system has several shortcomings:

1. Lack of interaction: Whether Sorcerer or Warden, pets' active and passive abilities are primarily offensive, with few other abilities, making players feel a lack of interaction with their pets. Twilight Matriarch is one of the few due to her active ability is to heal multiple targets. I personally think this is the most successful pet design.

2. The pet system lacks compatibility: Pets need to occupy two slots, and for a sorc, the pet build requires 6 slots, 4 for permanent pets, 1 for Daedric Prey, and 1 for Storm Atronach. Otherwise, there will be a serious loss of DPS. However, this not only seriously excludes the possibility of using other skills, but also makes the build monotonous. In addition, as mentioned earlier, pets lack interactivity, making the pet system even more boring.

3.Blocking vision: In some cases, pets will block the player's field of vision, resulting in a less than pleasant experience. Especially for Twilight and Maw of the Inferna, it would be great if we could find a solution that doesn't cancel the summon and doesn't block Vision.

4. Meaningless Waste and Burden: Resummoning a pet upon player death is extremely time-consuming and resource-intensive, but this waste severely impacts the endgame experience, especially when you finally manage to resummon your pet only to find your resources depleted. Furthermore, the reduced movement speed during pet summoning can lead to further death due to the inability to dodge.

Therefore, I would much rather see the reworked Sorcerer strengthen the shock and dark magic theme and be redefined as a Destruction Mage.

I totally agree with you, the only way i can think to make the summoning theme work is making every pet 1 slot.

It could be like every summon is essentially an ability doing it's effect then disappearing, like necromancer summons, or like current vengeance sorc.

I think the 2 slot is fine, if the skill played the roll of 2 skills. For instance you could still have the permanent pet, but make the active more active.

Ex for clanfear make the active skill have the clanfear do a gapclose jump towards the enemy. This should be as strong as blastbones. The "2nd" slot should essentially account for a "dot" skill which is the clanfear light attacking. Honestly instead of a cast time I think I would rather have a death respawn timer or something for the pet.

Matriach for example could just be a buff and hot on yourself skillslot 1. Skillslot 2 would be allowing you to send out the matriach to an ally instead to aoe heal or shield IDK you fill in the gaps.

Performance wise permanent pets shouldn't be permanent. IMO you should probably make them only last 30s, but it refreshes if you use the active skill. To avoid annoyances just make a crystal frag type proc if the pet times out so instead of cast time resummon you could instant cast respawn them. The pet dying in combat would still require you to cast time bashable respawn them since you wouldnt get the timeout proc...........Sounds complicated, but its just a way to cull the number of entities on the server during downtimes and in cities. Or just make them disappear when out of combat I guess lol

Lystrad · January 15

I don't think warden or sorcerer will lose anything that is already part of their theming, I DO think that the theming of some existing abilities will change. as an example for sorcerer I see curse moving into dark magic, crystal moving into storm calling and becoming lightning, and surge going into daedric summoning and getting renamed something like "meridian pact" given it's ability description literally calls out invoking Meridia's power.

My reasoning is that as they are lightning/frost/animals are baked pretty hard into the existing kits for sorc and warden. Poison with dragon knight always felt to me like it was more of a bandaid holdover from when offensive stats were split between martial and magical so stam DKs needed a new damage type for to not be indirectly nerfed. Now that things like penetration and crit are hybridized it makes sense to let the fire, dragon, and lava trees just be fire. That said the loss of it definitely sucks for anyone who built their characters identity around it and I can sympathize with that.(Now with that in mind, while I can't see sorc losing shock, I COULD see it losing physical for the same reason. )

BasP · January 15

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

This is also a concern for some players, because the new class descriptions emphasize the power of seasons for Wardens, potentially making them elementalists. Sorcerers, on the other hand, emphasize dark magic and daedra, making no mention of shock. Furthermore, the removal of poison damage from the New DK makes it difficult not to worry that other reworked classes will also be removed, or forced into some unconsensual build.

Though it doesn't have to mean anything, the Sorcerer in the Class Refresh image clearly has lightning surrounding his forearms, so it seems to still be part of the class identity. Considering the class has a whole skill line dedicated to Lighting Damage to begin with, I'm personally not worried that it'll be removed from the class.

If ZOS intends to streamline the damage types of the classes, I wouldn't really be surprised if Physical Damage would be removed from the Sorcerer though. Magic Damage could be used for the Dark Magic skill line, Lightning Damage for Storm Calling and Daedric Summoning could have a mix of both of those damage types.

The Nightblade's colour scheme does fit Bleed Damage, by the way.

YandereGirlfriend · January 15

I know that the forum is against more "Beam-ification" of skills and playstyles but honestly if Sorcerer has to have a Beam-like skill then it should totally be like a channeled Chain Lightning that we have wanted for years and years.

MashmalloMan · January 15

Why are people so quick to remove Physical damage over Magic damage for Sorc? I can't disagree more.

Magic and Physical damage in ESO are vague, one size fits all, damage types that ZOS use to fit a multitude of element fantasies that don't as easily fit into Flame, Shock, Frost or Poison, Bleed, and Disease. The "Dark Magic" skill line is one of these instances, there is no "Dark" damage type, Magic damage fits, but so does Physical or Shock. They're interchangeable, the same way Dragonknight's use "Earth" and "Dragon" magic, yet Flame damage is what binds every line together for a better designed class. This same sentiment goes for Daedric Summoning, it could be any element, but because Sorc has an affinity for the Storm, the majority of the skills deal Physical or Shock damage.
Sorcerer is 100% not losing Shock damage, it's not even a question because it's so integral to Sorc's visual and functional identity, the majority of skills use Shock and they have an entire line dedicated to being masters of the storm. Magic and Physical are more obvious candiates for the chopping block. Magic damage as described above is a vague element that Shock could easily replace without effecting the identity of Dark Magic or Daedric Summoning, the same way DK's Flame still works for Dragon and Earth abilities. If anything, Magic damage is stepping on the toes of Shock by competing for the same Magicka costing abilities with no passive connection from the very start of this game, Physical doesn't have that same problem. Passives like Implosion and Energized, unique stamina costing abilities that look and feel like nothing else, and an easy connection to Storm magic via the "air" side of that equation.
If we're speaking from the perspective of what makes a healthy balance for element types on a class, I'd argue providing strong identity for one Magical and Martial type is the ideal approach, two Magical and no Martial makes little to no sense to me if we're having to pick between the 2 dynamics. It's unfortunate DK lost its martial side, but at the same time, it did feel very tacked on compared to Sorc's physical and there's many opportunities via future class reworks to bring it back in a more meaningful way. Arcanist's have green skills and the tomes could poison the caster/enemy. Nightblade is an assassin so applying poisons is not a stretch although bleed for their Blood Magic line would make the most sense. Warden with flora, fauna, and green abilities also makes sense, if they choose to move away from their Bleed damage. Physical I can't see going anywhere but Templar, but even then, it has a much weaker fantasy by fulfilling the holy/aesric side of magic, that is already being accomplished by their Magic damage type.

So in the end, I see 4 outcomes.

Magic converted to Shock, Physical stays for stamina costing abilities. This is the most logical to me, you keep a Magical vs Martial dynamic, shock gets better representation allowing for easier passive combo's. Sets become easier to build around. This is ideal to me.
Magic and Physical converts to Shock like DK. This is dissapointing, but acceptable because passives would get much stronger bonuses, and visual identity for the whole class would feel like a complete package. Sets would be easier to build around, I can make the logistical leap that my "air" magic deals Shock damage.
All damage converted to Magic or Shock, Physical removed. This makes little sense to me because you'd be forcing Martial damage out of the class while separating Magical damage into 2 elements instead of one, forcing passives and combo's to be weaker and harder to build around.
Keep things the same way Stamina abilities using Physical and Magicka using Magic or Shock. This feels like a mistake, it makes abilities like Curse, Frag, Mines, and Suppression Field weaker. Passives don't play well together or can't be interesting enough so you get generic ones like Amplitude. Magic doesn't make sense for Storm Calling, but Shock makes sense for Dark Magic. Daedric Summoning can go either way. This version just doesn't feel like a complete package and I'd expect them to move away from it.

So yeah option 1 in my opinion. 😆

Lystrad · January 15

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Why are people so quick to remove Physical damage over Magic damage for Sorc? I can't disagree more.

So there are two primary reason I see physical as the thing most likely to be stripped out. The first, is dark magic specifically. Yes, you could very easily just convert it to shock damage and be done with it but from a thematic standpoint there's nothing particularly dark about shock damage so it kind of makes more sense as the more nebulous magic type.

The secondary reason is because of the number of skills in the sorcerer skill lines that deal physical damage. There's 4. DK lost poison and had 3 abilities that dealt poison damage iirc so similar numbers there, and it should be noted that dragon knight also lost all of it's physical damage not just poison.

So keeping those things in mind is why I think the two most likely outcomes here from your list would be 2 and 3

YandereGirlfriend · January 15

I mained a Stamina Sorcerer for years, but, in this era of hybridization, I do not have any particular nostalgia for generic Physical Damage.

It was a gameplay kludge solution that was needed at a particular moment in time... but that moment has now passed. Leave Physical Damage to the Weapon abilities where it makes the most sense.

Sorcerer is also going to have a clash with Templar (and Nightblade) over generic Magic Damage if Dark Magic is allowed to persist as Magic Damage. Those skills do not even synergize with the actual class passives, which is, IMO, a huge design flaw, particularly if we are trying to incentivize pureclassing.

IMO, the game needs fewer classes invested in these generic damage types. Only one class that currently exists makes any thematic sense whatsoever to affiliate with Shock Damage and that is the Sorcerer. We should lean into that rather than watering-down several classes with these generic types.

MincMincMinc · January 15

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I know that the forum is against more "Beam-ification" of skills and playstyles but honestly if Sorcerer has to have a Beam-like skill then it should totally be like a channeled Chain Lightning that we have wanted for years and years.

Something like this would be a great overload rework. Like instead of replacing your weapons make overload an extra effect that hits the target you light/heavy and it can bounce to enemies next to the target 4-6 times. Originally I had suggested to do something similar to overload. Or have a stamsorc movement based morph of overload that used ult per sec to make you cc immune+shock enemies you run through.

I just think skills really need to be kept simple before we have more giant tentacle DLC spam skills. At some point it would be nice if zos stuck to the old philosophy of spammables are simple animations and skills. The 5th skills are more complex as game changers with added cost. Then ultimates and CCs are more visually extravagant for the sake of play and counterplay.

RebornV3x · January 15

For me Sorcerer need to either be a full Summoner class or a full lightning Battlemage class. The Sorcerer always seems have a clash of identity with a few pets and some random skills thrown in with a touch of lighting skills that are bad. Lighting Flood is the worst AOE and Mages Wraith is the worst execute in the game something needs to be done.

I would suggest either giving the Clanfear and Matriarch to Necromancer while Sorcerer get 2 new lighting themed skills OR
Sorcerer get more summons and leans into being a Summoner class

MashmalloMan · January 15

Lystrad wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Why are people so quick to remove Physical damage over Magic damage for Sorc? I can't disagree more.

So there are two primary reason I see physical as the thing most likely to be stripped out. The first, is dark magic specifically. Yes, you could very easily just convert it to shock damage and be done with it but from a thematic standpoint there's nothing particularly dark about shock damage so it kind of makes more sense as the more nebulous magic type.

The secondary reason is because of the number of skills in the sorcerer skill lines that deal physical damage. There's 4. DK lost poison and had 3 abilities that dealt poison damage iirc so similar numbers there, and it should be noted that dragon knight also lost all of it's physical damage not just poison.

So keeping those things in mind is why I think the two most likely outcomes here from your list would be 2 and 3

What exactly is dark about magic damage? The answer is nothing, the dark part we recognise is from the purple crystals and glows the majority of those skills use which could easily turn into purple lightning for a more defined class look.. or stay the same purple as it already is, just deals Shock instead.

Don't even need to look very hard for what this would look like. The current crown crate features purple lightning via Khenarthi's Thunder Steed mount and pony pet. They're even releasing a purple skill style this year for Lightning Form. Can even look at the current class kit, Volatile Familiar and Tormentor both glow purple with their activations, deal shock damage passively, and even Familiar pulses purple aoe for Shock damage. Quote a single player that has ever complained about the visuals or functionality of those 2 abilities having purple + Shock damage.

If you wanted any signs as to the potential future of Sorcerer and what it could look like, those are it.

To me, all that makes much more sense than Magic damage, the most boring, generic element, that has nothing to do with Sorcerer's passive bonuses, visual identity, or "silhouette". Curse for example, I'd bet my future unborn child that it moves to Dark Magic, I could totally see it summoning a purple lightning bolt on expiration akin to Mages Fury.

Majority of Templar skills are holy that do Magic damage, yet we accept it because they're coloured yellow. Warden's Bear, Flies, Cliff Racer, and Shalks do Magic damage, but also Bleed and Poison, yet we accept them because they're blue. Numerous and countless examples of this. Magic damage is not the identifier, it was used as a supplement for years due to a lack of options that really matched.

Ask yourself why NB's Blood Magic line doesn't have a single skill with Bleed damage? Well it's because magic was generic enough to fulfill that fantasy at the launch of the game when Bleed damage didn't exist as a full fledged damage type, nor were they comfortable enough like they are with hybridization, to give martial damage for Magicka based skills.

From a fundamental gameplay standpoint, it makes more sense to have an even split of magical/martial damage, aka Shock/Physical OR pure Shock like DK. In no universe do I see Magic+Shock making any sort of logical sense for a better designed class, not only are they spitting on the grave of stamina players like they just did for DK, they're also making the class more difficult to balance by diluting half the abilities into not 1, but 2 magic types which defeats the purpose of simplifying the elements in the 1st place. You get weaker passives and abilities that could of applied Concussed like DK's Chain, Claw, or Breath, now have to be second guessed because it could also apply Overcharged instead. It adds complexity that isn't necessary or engaging.

To your second point, every single DK ability that dealt poison damage was just a recolored green version. Physical leap, same thing. Poop Fist is the only entirely unique ability, but everyone hated it. There's plenty of classes as I covered previously like Arcanist, Warden, or Nightblade that could better suit the Poison fantasy that ZOS eluded to vs the situation with Physical on Sorc, of which only Templar carries a great deal, but that class has a similar DK situation to poison with no unique physical abilities.

Sorcerer on the other hand has had Physical and Shock via Storm Calling with the passives Implosion(lost to homogenization) and Energized since year one of the game. Every single physical damage ability is distinct and unique from their magical countertypes. Clanfear has a different model and animations from Familiar, Hurricane different VFX, SFX, and radius than Boundless, Crystal Weapon and Bound Armaments are brand new abilities that don't look or function like Crystal Frag or Bound Aegis.

I'm not saying this is a battle of Magic vs Physical damage, there is plenty of unique abilities for both, it wouldn't make sense for Phys to replace Magic or vise versa, although at least Physical has a passive bonus. This is more a question of Magic vs Shock, and Shock wins that hands down.

Let's not forget they're trying to give real reasons to pure class, if they went Magic + Shock, why should someone interested in Dark Magic take Storm Calling when it doesn't give passive benifts for the abilities they like? Do we expect them to add Magic damage to Storm Calling? To that I'd refer to your initial comment that Magic damage doesn't belong there, even more so because at least Lightning has an obvious element. The alternative is to have Storm Calling use broad passives like Amplitude, instead of bonuses like DK's Burning, Fire, or DOT passive bonuses, but seriously why would we want them to dull down passives and abilities to move away from classes feeling distinct and unique to build or play?

Logically it just doesn't make sense to me to go that proposed direction. Either they go full Shock or Shock + Physical. I don't want to lose Physical, but I'd be happy to give it up if it meant a better designed class like DK's justification. I predict Magic damage is going the way of the dodo, potentially Physical too. Set your expectations now so you're not dissapointed is all I'm saying.

MashmalloMan · January 15

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I mained a Stamina Sorcerer for years, but, in this era of hybridization, I do not have any particular nostalgia for generic Physical Damage.

It was a gameplay kludge solution that was needed at a particular moment in time... but that moment has now passed. Leave Physical Damage to the Weapon abilities where it makes the most sense.

Sorcerer is also going to have a clash with Templar (and Nightblade) over generic Magic Damage if Dark Magic is allowed to persist as Magic Damage. Those skills do not even synergize with the actual class passives, which is, IMO, a huge design flaw, particularly if we are trying to incentivize pureclassing.

IMO, the game needs fewer classes invested in these generic damage types. Only one class that currently exists makes any thematic sense whatsoever to affiliate with Shock Damage and that is the Sorcerer. We should lean into that rather than watering-down several classes with these generic types.

And thank you, this in combination with what I've already said.

ZhuJiuyin · January 16

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Why are people so quick to remove Physical damage over Magic damage for Sorc? I can't disagree more.
Magic and Physical damage in ESO are vague, one size fits all, damage types that ZOS use to fit a multitude of element fantasies that don't as easily fit into Flame, Shock, Frost or Poison, Bleed, and Disease. The "Dark Magic" skill line is one of these instances, there is no "Dark" damage type, Magic damage fits, but so does Physical or Shock. They're interchangeable, the same way Dragonknight's use "Earth" and "Dragon" magic, yet Flame damage is what binds every line together for a better designed class. This same sentiment goes for Daedric Summoning, it could be any element, but because Sorc has an affinity for the Storm, the majority of the skills deal Physical or Shock damage.

Sorcerer is 100% not losing Shock damage, it's not even a question because it's so integral to Sorc's visual and functional identity, the majority of skills use Shock and they have an entire line dedicated to being masters of the storm. Magic and Physical are more obvious candiates for the chopping block. Magic damage as described above is a vague element that Shock could easily replace without effecting the identity of Dark Magic or Daedric Summoning, the same way DK's Flame still works for Dragon and Earth abilities. If anything, Magic damage is stepping on the toes of Shock by competing for the same Magicka costing abilities with no passive connection from the very start of this game, Physical doesn't have that same problem. Passives like Implosion and Energized, unique stamina costing abilities that look and feel like nothing else, and an easy connection to Storm magic via the "air" side of that equation.

If we're speaking from the perspective of what makes a healthy balance for element types on a class, I'd argue providing strong identity for one Magical and Martial type is the ideal approach, two Magical and no Martial makes little to no sense to me if we're having to pick between the 2 dynamics. It's unfortunate DK lost its martial side, but at the same time, it did feel very tacked on compared to Sorc's physical and there's many opportunities via future class reworks to bring it back in a more meaningful way. Arcanist's have green skills and the tomes could poison the caster/enemy. Nightblade is an assassin so applying poisons is not a stretch although bleed for their Blood Magic line would make the most sense. Warden with flora, fauna, and green abilities also makes sense, if they choose to move away from their Bleed damage. Physical I can't see going anywhere but Templar, but even then, it has a much weaker fantasy by fulfilling the holy/aesric side of magic, that is already being accomplished by their Magic damage type.

So in the end, I see 4 outcomes.
Magic converted to Shock, Physical stays for stamina costing abilities. This is the most logical to me, you keep a Magical vs Martial dynamic, shock gets better representation allowing for easier passive combo's. Sets become easier to build around. This is ideal to me.

Magic and Physical converts to Shock like DK. This is dissapointing, but acceptable because passives would get much stronger bonuses, and visual identity for the whole class would feel like a complete package. Sets would be easier to build around, I can make the logistical leap that my "air" magic deals Shock damage.

All damage converted to Magic or Shock, Physical removed. This makes little sense to me because you'd be forcing Martial damage out of the class while separating Magical damage into 2 elements instead of one, forcing passives and combo's to be weaker and harder to build around.

Keep things the same way Stamina abilities using Physical and Magicka using Magic or Shock. This feels like a mistake, it makes abilities like Curse, Frag, Mines, and Suppression Field weaker. Passives don't play well together or can't be interesting enough so you get generic ones like Amplitude. Magic doesn't make sense for Storm Calling, but Shock makes sense for Dark Magic. Daedric Summoning can go either way. This version just doesn't feel like a complete package and I'd expect them to move away from it.

So yeah option 1 in my opinion. 😆

Thank you for your analysis.

I also believe that the final Sorc will likely adopt one of the following three approaches:
1. All damage will be changed to shock + physical damage (I think there's a 40% chance of this).

2. All damage will be changed to shock damage (I think there's a 40% chance of this, and it should best fit the standards of a modern class).

3. All damage will be changed to magic damage (I think the probability is low, around 20%, but it's still possible, since the new description doesn't mention anything related to shock).

However, what worries people more is whether the reworked Sorc will be forced to use a pet system, just like before? Frankly, the initial design of Sorc was a bit like biting off more than it could chew, cramming three very different styles into one class, and relying solely on the limited 5+1 skills in each skill line to balance and showcase that style, ultimately turning Sorc into a monster resulting from multiple compromises.

If the existing style of Sorc is truly to be simplified, I think Dark Magic and Storm Calling should be unified into Shock damage, and the skills in both skill lines should be named with names that reflect both Dark and Shock elements, such as Dark Lightning, Paralyzing Curse, and Destructive Storm. Balance should also be specifically implemented for these two skill lines.

As for the third pet skill line, honestly, I wouldn't mind if it were completely removed, but I don't think ZOS will do that, and some players might indeed be unhappy about it. Perhaps the pet skill tree could be made more supportive, giving pets more supportive abilities similar to Twilight Matriarch. For example, Clannfear's active ability could be changed to reduce the target's armor and increase the team's armor, while Familiar's active ability could be changed to immediately teleport to the player's side and stun nearby targets after 1 second, while also applying Minor Cowardice to the target. Twilight Tormentor's active ability could have its conditions removed, directly increasing its damage, and also providing an additional damage buff to nearby allies during its summoning. Additionally, Daedric Prey's buff should be moved to a passive, or the damage could simply be added directly to the pet, moving Curse-type skills to the Dark Magic tree.

This would streamline Sorc into two styles: a petless Dark+Shock theme, focusing on shock damage but lacking in team support; and a pet-centric theme with stronger team support capabilities, no longer relying on Daedric Prey every 6 seconds, allowing novice Sorc players to focus more on observing battlefield situations and dungeon mechanics without sacrificing too much DPS.

Nemesis7884 · January 16

I dont care all that much but would like if they already do a class refresh to really rethink the themes and not just update based on what has been there historically...

It makes no lore sense why a sorcerer would be lightning focused, a warden frost focused (but then the druids lightning) but a necro multi element...

Inow would be the chance to clean things up and if a sorc is the archetype for a battle mage / classic wizard and summoner it should be magic and/or multi element focused

MindOfTheSwarm · January 16

I think boxing all classes into one damage type only is a bad idea.

Warden being seasoned based. Ok. So I’m guessing Winter’s Embrace will be mostly untouched. I think we will see Fire Fetcherflies, Fire Shalks, so Fire based Animal Companions?

Hmm, it makes sense Vaardenfell wise.

So what about the plant stuff? Will it be all healing? Or will we get some poison plant builds coming.

I would not mind a versatile class like this provided that certain redundant Frost skills like Frozen Device get removed or reworked into something good for Frost DPS.

Lystrad · January 16

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What exactly is dark about magic damage? The answer is nothing, the dark part we recognise is from the purple crystals and glows the majority of those skills use which could easily turn into purple lightning for a more defined class look.. or stay the same purple as it already is, just deals Shock instead.

You're right, there is nothing dark about magic damage but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was that for the sake of expediency I don't think they're going to go out of their way to try to reimagine an entire skill line. Some individual skills sure, like I agree the aforementioned curse is totally probably going into the dark magic line as much like fire breath always should have been in draconic power, curse absolutely always should have been in dark magic but I don't think they're going to change the damage type, animations, skill names, and skill line name of an entire tree to fit changing the crystal theme to a lightning one.I think they're more likely to use what is already there as an existing base to draw inspiration from whenever they can for the sake of getting these reworks out faster.

Now having said that, as someone who prefers the shock theme and to be honest, who doesn't think the dark magic skill line even really makes sense in universe seeing as it only really exists in eso (crystal spells specifically, not the concept of dark magic.), I would be so happy to be wrong and having magic damage subsumed by shock and dark magic re-themed to lightning spells instead of crystals but in my mind currently, the thing that is protecting the crystal/magic theme of dark magic from going shock is the same thing that protects the lightning/shock theme of stormcalling from being overhauled to generic magic but if they want to take dark magic and give me shock curse, lightning runes, storm prison, ect, I'm all for it because you're right having one damage type as a throughline for the entire class would be helpful. "Dark magic" as a concept belongs necro and arcanist anyway, imo.

MincMincMinc · January 16

MashmalloMan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I mained a Stamina Sorcerer for years, but, in this era of hybridization, I do not have any particular nostalgia for generic Physical Damage.

It was a gameplay kludge solution that was needed at a particular moment in time... but that moment has now passed. Leave Physical Damage to the Weapon abilities where it makes the most sense.

Sorcerer is also going to have a clash with Templar (and Nightblade) over generic Magic Damage if Dark Magic is allowed to persist as Magic Damage. Those skills do not even synergize with the actual class passives, which is, IMO, a huge design flaw, particularly if we are trying to incentivize pureclassing.

IMO, the game needs fewer classes invested in these generic damage types. Only one class that currently exists makes any thematic sense whatsoever to affiliate with Shock Damage and that is the Sorcerer. We should lean into that rather than watering-down several classes with these generic types.

And thank you, this in combination with what I've already said.

As a 10+ year stamsorc I also want to hard agree to this line of thought. I am perfectly fine with stormcalling becoming the lightning line and dark magic being just magic damage line.

IMO crystal weapon should be more like a melee crystal frags, even then it should be magic damage I think. Instead of a 33% chance i think getting a proc every 3rd hit where your cast skill does a stun fits the base skill fairly well. Not to mention it brings back classic dizzy stamsorc to some degree........ The copy and paste of imbue just doesnt really fit with the upfront steamtrain kinda playstyle stamsorc always was.

MashmalloMan · January 16

Lystrad wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What exactly is dark about magic damage? The answer is nothing, the dark part we recognise is from the purple crystals and glows the majority of those skills use which could easily turn into purple lightning for a more defined class look.. or stay the same purple as it already is, just deals Shock instead.

You're right, there is nothing dark about magic damage but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was that for the sake of expediency I don't think they're going to go out of their way to try to reimagine an entire skill line. Some individual skills sure, like I agree the aforementioned curse is totally probably going into the dark magic line as much like fire breath always should have been in draconic power, curse absolutely always should have been in dark magic but I don't think they're going to change the damage type, animations, skill names, and skill line name of an entire tree to fit changing the crystal theme to a lightning one.I think they're more likely to use what is already there as an existing base to draw inspiration from whenever they can for the sake of getting these reworks out faster.

I'd say we're far past that line of thinking now that DK's rework is available. We now know the scope at which they're operating which is honestly quite impressive. I think if you asked most people a year ago, many would say DK had the strongest class identity, if not top 3. Yet here we are, they redid almost everything to give it an even more cohesive theme with effects and passives that better play off each other. Why would it be so surprising for them to do the same for Sorcerer, especially when they're 3rd in line. I'd expect the severity of the overhauls to reduce substantially by the 6th, or 7th class, not the 3rd.

They've made it clear they're committed, and like DK, a lightning theme from top to bottom would bind the class together. I'm also not saying they need to remove the Dark or Daedric aspects we've come to be familiar with, in fact I think they should stay with further emphasis, it's just a matter of making the lightning appear in every line with its own twists.

I see the lines as a spectrum with Dark Magic at one end, Storm Calling at the other, and Daedric Summoning meeting in the middle for a blend of the 2.

Dark Magic's colour scheme is purple + black. The source of the magic comes from crystals, rituals, and aura's as if the caster is making a deal with the devil. Purple and black lightning spews from crystals in a chaotic way. If you've played Baldur's Gate 3 or many RPGs, think Warlock spells that have that negative/purple look to them, combined with lightning.
Storm Calling's colour scheme is the blue + white we know. The source of the magic comes from within, it's innate, the caster manipulates the weather around it's target or themselves. The storm is precise and calculated, quick and agile. The visual identity is mostly the same as is, with some added oomph to better emphasize the feeling of thunder.
Daedric Summoning meets in the middle, colour scheme is blueish purple. It combines the innate power with borrowed power to summon Daedric allies and weaponry. It retains a mix of that stone + lightning effect of Storm Atro, with the wispy indigo air look from bound weapons. Some abilities lean in the Dark Magic direction with volatile purple + black lightning, others lean in the Storm Calling direction with more agile and controlled blue + white lightning.

Lystrad wrote: »

Now having said that, as someone who prefers the shock theme and to be honest, who doesn't think the dark magic skill line even really makes sense in universe seeing as it only really exists in eso (crystal spells specifically, not the concept of dark magic.), I would be so happy to be wrong and having magic damage subsumed by shock and dark magic re-themed to lightning spells instead of crystals but in my mind currently, the thing that is protecting the crystal/magic theme of dark magic from going shock is the same thing that protects the lightning/shock theme of stormcalling from being overhauled to generic magic but if they want to take dark magic and give me shock curse, lightning runes, storm prison, ect, I'm all for it because you're right having one damage type as a throughline for the entire class would be helpful. "Dark magic" as a concept belongs necro and arcanist anyway, imo.

I explained it above, but I think this where people who love Dark Magic, or at least the concept of it, are afraid to lose it because they think Shock damage over Magic damage would replace it. I think the opposite, blending the lightning theme with a dark spin on it would not only bring the entire class full circle, it'd make Dark Magic way cooler and the class easier to balance. Shock damage, and lightning visuals does not mean we need to lose the crystals, Daedric elements, or purple thing going for it.

Imo you can look at all 3 lines for Sorcerer like you can for Dragonknight. DK loves Flame damage, every line includes it, the question is HOW that flame damage is produced. Ardent Flame feels like raw, innate flame, manipulated like a fire bender, Draconic Power feels like you're summoning it from a dragonic spirit or god, and Earthen Heart feels like a bond with mother nature, aka Bolin and his lava bending from Legend of Korra lol.

Same concept for Sorc, Shock in every line. Storm Calling is innate, mastering the ability to manipulate weather or summon lightning from within, Daedric Summoning is to borrow the power from Daedra, and imbue them with your Dark Magic or Storm Calling, Dark Magic is a pact with the devil, chaotic, volatile.

MincMincMinc · January 16

Why are we assuming each class only gets one damage type? Is it because DK only got fire since they only had mostly fire skills?

Storm is very clearly shock lightning themed
Dark magic is very clearly magic damage themed
Animal is clearly poison themed
Winter's is clearly frost
Necro grave would be disease
Dawns wrath is clearly fire damage

nb gets questionable, but assassin would parallel dark magic and be physical
siphon could be bleed or magic, i always thought this skill line was weird because it felt way more vampire than the vamp skill line.

MashmalloMan · January 16

Lystrad wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

What exactly is dark about magic damage? The answer is nothing, the dark part we recognise is from the purple crystals and glows the majority of those skills use which could easily turn into purple lightning for a more defined class look.. or stay the same purple as it already is, just deals Shock instead.

"Dark magic" as a concept belongs necro and arcanist anyway, imo.

Dark Magic conceptually is so broad, I think there's a right and wrong way to do it and right now, it's wrong, so I understand the sentiment you feel. There's many effective ways to portray dark magic. It comes down to the source of power for me.

Arcanist uses tomes, kinda like a wizard from D and D, except all the spells are ancient knowledge from the Daedric prince Hermaeus Mora. I'm not a lore buff, but they seem like more of a neutral god, rather than an evil or dark one, controlling time and fate as is required.
Necromancers bring the dead back to life, but it's not perfect magic, they come back temporarily, corrupted, and mindless. It's considered a manipulation of the laws of the universe and as such, a criminal act. Death and the Grim Reaper in different cultures, religions, or media may not be considered evil, instead as a natural part of life, an entity that guides you from one plane of existence to the next. That said, Necromancer's are selfish in that they temporarily use the dead as puppets, that's pretty evil, but I don't know if I'd say it's "dark magic".
Nightblade even has a bit of this idea with Blood Magic, but I see that as more of a manipulation of blood as a tool, the same way a water bender from the avatar universe can blood bend. There are rituals, but to whom? This probably feels the darkest of the three to me, but it's also only one skill line. Shadow and Assassination feel less magical or spiritual, more physically based in reality, so the class as a whole does too. Maybe Blood Magic has something to do with Sithis, kinda feels that way.

Dark Magic loosely pulls its power from vague crystals to deal generic damage, so I hope it gets more love and leans into chaotic themes we find in D and D. I think that angle would help seperate itself from a god and books, the dead, or blood bending. Adding Curse into its tool kit would definitely help solidify it as something having to do with spirits or a dark dimension, but 2 damage skills for one line doesn't really fit their new vision, so I think 1 more is going to be swapped.

My guess would be Lightning Splash. 5/6 skills for Storm Calling are mobile, splash is the only stationary ability that would better fit Dark Magic's mostly aoe and stationary based kit. Also, easy slam dunk to convert one of the morphs into a heal over time or group wide buff which Sorc lacks.

DK's Ash Cloud was moved and while I find it sad that they lost Eruption for a damage skill, if the reasoning was to better emphasize that DK DPS is a mobile brute, rather than a stand your ground playstyle like Templar or Necro then it makes sense to me. Sorc is in a similar boat from the very definition of their new class fantasy which mentions being mobile and splash has never fit that. You won't catch anyone in PvP using it, and it barely see's use in PvE for the past 7 years either.

Also, not that I want this to happen or think it will... but Streak with purple lightning could feel very Dark Magic based. In many forms of media, teleports are treated as dimensional warps with purplish black or space themes to them. Think Nightcrawler from X-Men for example. Other than Curse, Splash, or Streak, I can't see any of the rest moving because they're so closely tied to the Daedric side of Daedric Summoning or Storm side of Storm Calling. Ward could move, but it wouldn't solve anything for DPS side of Dark Magic which already has a ton of support and utility skills.

ZhuJiuyin · January 17

Lystrad wrote: »

"Dark magic" as a concept belongs necro and arcanist anyway, imo.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dark Magic conceptually is so broad, I think there's a right and wrong way to do it and right now, it's wrong, so I understand the sentiment you feel. There's many effective ways to portray dark magic.

In TES, there's no explicit emphasis on the "Dark Magic" category because TES has different spell classifications. According to lore, Dark Magic isn't limited to a specific element or type; even some Daedric spells, such as Daedric runes mentioned in the text, are considered Dark Magic, and life-draining magic is indeed categorized as a type of Dark Magic.

Some characters classified as Sorc, such as Elenwen from TES5, possess Stoneflesh, Conjure Storm Atronach, Chain Lightning, Fireball, Ice Storm, Fast Healing, and Steadfast Ward. Except for Stoneflesh, Fireball, and Ice Storm, the other skills can be found as corresponding or similar skills in the Sorc category of ESO.

Therefore, based on the lore, I think it would be reasonable to change Dark Magic to deal shock damage; only the names would need to be modified accordingly. Furthermore, lore provides evidence for moving offensive Daedric spells, such as Daedric Curse, to Dark Magic.

However, what bothers me is how to rework Daedric Mines. Although Daedric Refuge has already been reworked once, both Daedric Refuge and Daedric Tomb are still very difficult to use, even to the point of being counterproductive.
My idea is to rework Daedric Tomb into a ground-based area-of-effect attack with a range of 28 meters and a size of 8 meters. It explodes every 5 seconds for 20 seconds, dealing impact damage and inflicting Minor Breach on targets within the area. This way, the new Daedric Tomb skill would be useful in PvE and also provide area control in PvP, driving away players standing under flags.
And Daedric Refuge, like Daedric Tomb, should be able to project a Refuge into an area within 28 meters, making it effective in PvE.

MindOfTheSwarm · January 17

I do think Nightblade will be very interesting in its execution in terms of its damage types, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they went all in on the Bleed based stuff due to the Siphoning line and even Assassination line… Shadow line for me is the curiosity. Are they going to keep some Magic based stuff for this like exclusivity?

If DK is any indication of direction, I would guess that all lines will have a mix of healing, tanking and damage.

I very much appreciate the channeled fire breath skill for DK as a DPS option for players who want a slower pace of play. This is an excellent move. So for NB, I wouldn’t be surprised at some kind of DPS channeled life drain skill that heals the user in the Siphoning tree.

If this is going to applied to all classes, then I would love some kind of channeled AoE Frost Storm or cone of Icy Winds for Wardens.