Cyrodiil Healing Nerf!!

MincMincMinc · January 15

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?

Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years
Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.
Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.
The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, large group viability and Lag on the server.

Teeba_Shei · January 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

xylena · January 15

AD42 wrote: »

Reducing healing received by 88%. Reduce shield durability by 88%. That's the simplest solution.

You sure it shouldn't be 87% or 89%?

100 players post here with 103 different values for what they think it should be.

Balancing these numbers is anything but simple.

Vogtard · January 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

I was just writing my reply when I saw yours. And I agree that now is a good time for changes.

Perhaps we just have too many sticky heals over space (AOE/multi-target) and/or over time (HOT), which results in those ridiculously effective stacks. Or both - looking at you, Vigor and Regen. I also blame smart healing.

In the world of damage, we have either classic AOE DOTs but they're typically space-locked hence easily avoidable in PVP, or sticky DOTs but they're single-target. Exceptions exist as class-specific skills or ultimates, so they're more restricted.
Dealing damage feels good because it's deliberate. We choose skills that are reliable and often prefer single-target direct damage.

Heals can't all be instant cuz of heal spamming tho, so HOTs do have their place. But healing should be more deliberate too, requiring healers to actively select their targets. And it's all in the game already - skills like Grand Heal, Blessing of Prot, or Mend Wounds are mechanically fantastic cuz they require careful execution, without insane scaling. Healing should be powerful, but simply harder mechanically. Aura bots are boring, and also the core problem here.

I think adapting some of the skills/sets in terms of mechanics/targeting/ease-of-use/availability would work much better than some awkward artificial caps. Start with the obvious culprits like Vigor and Regen + wards, and go from there. Simplify, also to off-load the calculations.

Nonetheless, I'm very happy the issue of healing will be addressed one way or another.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · January 15

xylena wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

Reducing healing received by 88%. Reduce shield durability by 88%. That's the simplest solution.

You sure it shouldn't be 87% or 89%?

100 players post here with 103 different values for what they think it should be.

Balancing these numbers is anything but simple.

Perfect solution - Increase healing reduction related to length of time in combat. 1% per min of combat. 100% healing reduction if you're fighting for over 100 mins.

MincMincMinc · January 15

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math

Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

MincMincMinc · January 15

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

Reducing healing received by 88%. Reduce shield durability by 88%. That's the simplest solution.

You sure it shouldn't be 87% or 89%?

100 players post here with 103 different values for what they think it should be.

Balancing these numbers is anything but simple.

Perfect solution - Increase healing reduction related to length of time in combat. 1% per min of combat. 100% healing reduction if you're fighting for over 100 mins.

Great now we cant heal anymore because zos's broken timers have me stuck in combat for multiple hours.

xylena · January 15

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Perfect solution - Increase healing reduction related to length of time in combat. 1% per min of combat. 100% healing reduction if you're fighting for over 100 mins.

"Stuck in combat" bug is now a death sentence, not just an annoyance xD

Teeba_Shei · January 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math
Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

Shouldn't you have a basic understanding of how the game works before trying to rebalance all of pvp healing? Can you name me one healing skill that hits 12 people?

MincMincMinc · January 15

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math
Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

Shouldn't you have a basic understanding of how the game works before trying to rebalance all of pvp healing? Can you name me one healing skill that hits 12 people?

Are you trying to say you cant have one person apply echoing vigor to 12 allies at the same time?

Teeba_Shei · January 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math
Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

Shouldn't you have a basic understanding of how the game works before trying to rebalance all of pvp healing? Can you name me one healing skill that hits 12 people?

Are you trying to say you cant have one person apply echoing vigor to 12 allies at the same time?

I was going to write an explanation of how echoing vigor works, but I want you to tell me how you think it works before I do that.

imPDA · January 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math
Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

Shouldn't you have a basic understanding of how the game works before trying to rebalance all of pvp healing? Can you name me one healing skill that hits 12 people?

Are you trying to say you cant have one person apply echoing vigor to 12 allies at the same time?

At the same time, with one cast? Or multiple recasts in succession count as at the same time too?

First option - no, second - yes.

The_Meathead · January 15

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Everyone seems to be bringing up weird anecdotal examples of how ball groups are ruining cyrodiil. Meanwhile, I was out in cyrodiil for the last two days and didn’t see a single ball group. They aren’t that common, and when they do show up, they get destroyed by pugs.

This does not match my experience in the slightest.

I've played in PCNA Greyhost two nights so far this week, and both nights there were several Ballgroups taking part just that I came across. I don't think I saw a single Keep sieged without at least one present, and they most certainly were not getting 'destroyed' by PuGs.

I saw one of the lesser Ballgroups get eventually wiped a couple times by a very concentrated effort of a much larger force, and I saw a very good one finally get pushed out when the amount of attackers finally grew and grew to a point they considered a threat, but by and large most the Ballgroups I came across just ran around with close to total impunity, doing whatever the heck they wanted.

So yes, that's anecdotal, but I'm willing to bet it matches the experience of most who played on the same server during primetime, provided they were taking part in major battles and map efforts. Given the fact Ballgroups rely on scheduling, I'm sure if you play during off hours there are less of them - but I've seen my share of them even on my days off, when I play at varied hours, and when there isn't a full pop lock's worth of opponents, they're absolutely untouchable.

I don't blame Ballgroup players for doing the utmost they can in accomplishing their goals, but with the current mechanics they have an absurdly disproportionate footprint on PvP because they're just ridiculously powerful. It honestly seems strange to me to hear people deny it, when even some of the more known Ballgroupers in this thread freely admit the same.

MincMincMinc · January 15

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math
Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

Shouldn't you have a basic understanding of how the game works before trying to rebalance all of pvp healing? Can you name me one healing skill that hits 12 people?

Are you trying to say you cant have one person apply echoing vigor to 12 allies at the same time?

I was going to write an explanation of how echoing vigor works, but I want you to tell me how you think it works before I do that.

imPDA wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math
Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

Shouldn't you have a basic understanding of how the game works before trying to rebalance all of pvp healing? Can you name me one healing skill that hits 12 people?

Are you trying to say you cant have one person apply echoing vigor to 12 allies at the same time?

At the same time, with one cast? Or multiple recasts in succession count as at the same time too?
First option - no, second - yes.

The end result that matters whether if I throw a group of 12 people together if I can roll my vigor onto 12 people. Yes having a cap does cause you to pay extra, but the end result is still your entire group having 12x of a heal doing 1/5 the single target heal.

Unless you are telling me when you recast it purges your old ticks off the original players healed. Which last I check years ago zos did not have any heal function this way.

Edit: If anything having a 6 person cap is a terrible useless idea because now they force the double pump and double the aoe smartheal checks on the server since you can bypass the "cap".

DaisyRay · January 15

“Just make Echo a major buff and Radiating a minor buff. That way people are limited to one of each, and you don’t get those massively stacked HoTs.”

That was a suggestion from someone who understands the game way better than I do. It sounds reasonable to me, but honestly, I barely know the game mechanics. I don’t even see healing as a huge issue, and ballgroups don’t bother me much either. The lag they create feels like a bigger problem than the groups themselves. Because of that, I feel like @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_Kevin (or whoever actually handles suggestions) should just disable addons in pvp. That would save a lot of people from lag. I don't lag as often, but there have been times where zergs just vanished around me because they all crashed.

At the end of the day, I don’t really care if people stack heals. We can’t demand balance in one tiny corner of the game when the whole thing is already unbalanced. Unless the plan is to overhaul everything, I’d rather they just leave healing alone. I know that’s not the popular opinion, so if they do decide to change healing, the suggestion above seems like a good plan.

Teeba_Shei · January 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math
Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

Shouldn't you have a basic understanding of how the game works before trying to rebalance all of pvp healing? Can you name me one healing skill that hits 12 people?

Are you trying to say you cant have one person apply echoing vigor to 12 allies at the same time?

I was going to write an explanation of how echoing vigor works, but I want you to tell me how you think it works before I do that.

imPDA wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math
Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

Shouldn't you have a basic understanding of how the game works before trying to rebalance all of pvp healing? Can you name me one healing skill that hits 12 people?

Are you trying to say you cant have one person apply echoing vigor to 12 allies at the same time?

At the same time, with one cast? Or multiple recasts in succession count as at the same time too?
First option - no, second - yes.

The end result that matters whether if I throw a group of 12 people together if I can roll my vigor onto 12 people. Yes having a cap does cause you to pay extra, but the end result is still your entire group having 12x of a heal doing 1/5 the single target heal.

Unless you are telling me when you recast it purges your old ticks off the original players healed. Which last I check years ago zos did not have any heal function this way.

Edit: If anything having a 6 person cap is a terrible useless idea because now they force the double pump and double the aoe smartheal checks on the server since you can bypass the "cap".

So you want to make Echoing Vigor require a ball group to see any use? You want it to require 12 people using it to make it as useful as one Resolving Vigor? Brother, you didn’t even know how it worked until about five minutes ago. Maybe stick to learning how the game works before you try to completely destroy Cyrodiil with misguided and misinformed healing nerfs.

Edit: Also, there are a ton of variables that determine who Vigor will hit. You might cast it five times while in combat and near all your teammates, but it might never hit one of the players.

Alchimiste1 · January 15

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

That in mind, with all the other issues, this change is just not thought out enough and aims to fix some problem that doesn't really exist aside from a vocal minority of people who will still just complain about the next thing once this is changed.

Do you actually believe this? Be honest.

Without a single doubt. The same people still complain about Rush of Agony after it has been nerfed multiple times and is one of the easiest sets to play against. You get a visual and audio que that is delayed by a second and is blocked by the majority of decent players. If you ever watch a GvG with decent groups the pull goes out and even with 12 man GvGs will often times pull nobody because it's extremely obvious. People who complain about this will always just jump to the next thing.

Yeah but they have 11 others in group voice screaming BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK. And 5+ healers , healing the person that gets gap closed. If you are the initial target of a ball group’s lotus + ROA + contingency root+warden charm( almost 0 counterplay), then a lot of the times it’s gg even if you block.

The_Meathead · January 15

DaisyRay wrote: »

“Just make Echo a major buff and Radiating a minor buff. That way people are limited to one of each, and you don’t get those massively stacked HoTs.”

That was a suggestion from someone who understands the game way better than I do. It sounds reasonable to me, but honestly, I barely know the game mechanics. I don’t even see healing as a huge issue, and ballgroups don’t bother me much either. The lag they create feels like a bigger problem than the groups themselves. Because of that, I feel like @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_Kevin (or whoever actually handles suggestions) should just disable addons in pvp. That would save a lot of people from lag. I don't lag as often, but there have been times where zergs just vanished around me because they all crashed.

At the end of the day, I don’t really care if people stack heals. We can’t demand balance in one tiny corner of the game when the whole thing is already unbalanced. Unless the plan is to overhaul everything, I’d rather they just leave healing alone. I know that’s not the popular opinion, so if they do decide to change healing, the suggestion above seems like a good plan.

First, yay Daisy!

Second, I agree about the AddOns - and have asked a couple times now if perhaps a test period without them present in Cyrodiil might be possible.

Especially after the green text answers we got a few weeks ago spelled out just how loosely they're monitored and also confirmed that AddOns in the past have impacted server performance, I feel like you're on point in connecting the dots as a strong possibility. Whether it's data sharing between members or whatever else, certain Ballgroups most definitely bring lag that I almost never see otherwise.

It's an unpopular suggesting, because people love their AddOns, but I too think there's something there that warrants further digging.

Teeba_Shei · January 15

The_Meathead wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

“Just make Echo a major buff and Radiating a minor buff. That way people are limited to one of each, and you don’t get those massively stacked HoTs.”

That was a suggestion from someone who understands the game way better than I do. It sounds reasonable to me, but honestly, I barely know the game mechanics. I don’t even see healing as a huge issue, and ballgroups don’t bother me much either. The lag they create feels like a bigger problem than the groups themselves. Because of that, I feel like @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_Kevin (or whoever actually handles suggestions) should just disable addons in pvp. That would save a lot of people from lag. I don't lag as often, but there have been times where zergs just vanished around me because they all crashed.

At the end of the day, I don’t really care if people stack heals. We can’t demand balance in one tiny corner of the game when the whole thing is already unbalanced. Unless the plan is to overhaul everything, I’d rather they just leave healing alone. I know that’s not the popular opinion, so if they do decide to change healing, the suggestion above seems like a good plan.

First, yay Daisy!

Second, I agree about the AddOns - and have asked a couple times now if perhaps a test period without them present in Cyrodiil might be possible.

Especially after the green text answers we got a few weeks ago spelled out just how loosely they're monitored and also confirmed that AddOns in the past have impacted server performance, I feel like you're on point in connecting the dots as a strong possibility. Whether it's data sharing between members or whatever else, certain Ballgroups most definitely bring lag that I almost never see otherwise.

It's an unpopular suggesting, because people love their AddOns, but I too think there's something there that warrants further digging.

Addons in ESO run entirely client-side and only process information that your client already receives from the server. When you cast a heal like Echoing Vigor, all the heavy calculations — healing ticks, buff targets, and PvP state — are handled by the gameplay servers, which are separate from anything addons do. Addons cannot access or modify these calculations; they simply read events such as buffs applied, damage done, or combat state. Even in large fights, the addon is just listening and displaying information locally, so it does not add any meaningful load to the servers that run combat in Cyrodiil.

Some addons, like RDK, have “network” features that send messages to other players in your group. These messages are relayed through the server’s chat/addon message system, which is completely separate from the gameplay servers. The server merely forwards small text packets, such as “Player X cast Proxy Detonation,” without performing any combat calculations or syncing buffs. Because these messages are optional, tiny, and rate-limited, they have no impact on server performance. In short, addons cannot increase lag in Cyrodiil because they never touch the heavy, server-side combat simulation.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · January 15

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

Reducing healing received by 88%. Reduce shield durability by 88%. That's the simplest solution.

You sure it shouldn't be 87% or 89%?

100 players post here with 103 different values for what they think it should be.

Balancing these numbers is anything but simple.

Perfect solution - Increase healing reduction related to length of time in combat. 1% per min of combat. 100% healing reduction if you're fighting for over 100 mins.

Great now we cant heal anymore because zos's broken timers have me stuck in combat for multiple hours.

Death would remove the combat state clearly it shouldn't work this way though, just an example of a change that would likely appease the majority of players despite being bad.

MincMincMinc · January 15

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math
Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

Shouldn't you have a basic understanding of how the game works before trying to rebalance all of pvp healing? Can you name me one healing skill that hits 12 people?

Are you trying to say you cant have one person apply echoing vigor to 12 allies at the same time?

I was going to write an explanation of how echoing vigor works, but I want you to tell me how you think it works before I do that.

imPDA wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

We know skill reworks are happening right now. It is EXCEEDINGLY crucial Zos has this discussion BEFORE they finish all the reworks. What are the different levels of options possible on the table?
Zos could simply give up and do nothing for pvp and wait another 10 years

Do a targeted blanket stat sheet modifier on everyone as we have already rejected because it does not solve the very niche issue.

Ideally pvp would have its own gamerule changes like not allowing dots/hots to stack. Like Gina said though, these options just aren't realisticly feasible. To implement something like this coding wise, you would need to duplicate all the skills in the game and have pve and pvp versions like we saw them use in the vengeance system. This doubles their workload and is not in zos's budget.
A change like this acts as a future automatic balancing tool for zos. Think about metas like the sloads or master dw meta......If the old gamerule of not allowing any dot to stack existed, well zos couldnt accidentally forget to code in a cooldown or stack condition for EVERY future proc set......This also acts as softcaps to prevent runaway group scenarios like we see with ballgroups stacking 12x of the same BIS heals.......This also provides Calculation Culling in extreme scenarios to prevent runaway performance issues like at breaches , where lets be honest, pugs are spam casting into a blackhole void and not every dot tick is necessary.

The option without splitting workload would be to continue with skill reworks in a smarter way knowing these issues exist. Except zos has to remember to avoid allowing abusive stacking interactions. Much like how there are no gamerules for proc sets. Zos upon every release of a skill has to remember to put stack limits or cooldowns or shorter durations.

For example Echoing Vigor. Echoing could be 8m. Echoing could be shorter duration. Echoing could have a tooltip proportional to the intended number of affected players. Do not balance a skill like echoing to be 1/5 the tick of a single target heal.....WHEN IT WILL HIT MORE THAN 5 PEOPLE!!!!! Make the skill 1/12 if it hits 12 people. If you want a small man oriented heal, change resolving to have a 5m small bonus heal on 3 other allies nearby.

Other examples are to change skills to avoid aoe all together, you can redesign skills like breath of life to be an actual AIMED single target heal instead of a massive aoe conal smartheal that does a million calculations just to only heal one person at the end of the day.

These don't need to be so game design restrictive either. You can have one morph of breath be the aoe conal smart heal that does 30% less heals than the other aimed heal morph or cost 30% more. There could simply be a price to pay for "accessibility', laziness, and Lag on the server.

You're way overthinking this. At this point this is a solution in search of a problem.

You say that to my wall of text options, but yeah simple solutions exist zos could do in an hour. Like adjusting echoing vigor's tooltip.

It is a skill that hits 12 people.....balance it so it will be 1/12 that of a single target heal.

Math
Resolving tooltip = 9834 /5s = 1966.8hps

Echoing tooltip = 6348 /16s = 396.75hps
396.75hps/1966.8hps = 0.20 which shows the healing per sec of echoing is 1/5 resolving even though it affects 12 people.

What should echoing's tooltip be?
1966.8hps /12people = 163.9hps
163.9 *16s == 2622.4 tooltip

Shouldn't you have a basic understanding of how the game works before trying to rebalance all of pvp healing? Can you name me one healing skill that hits 12 people?

Are you trying to say you cant have one person apply echoing vigor to 12 allies at the same time?

At the same time, with one cast? Or multiple recasts in succession count as at the same time too?
First option - no, second - yes.

The end result that matters whether if I throw a group of 12 people together if I can roll my vigor onto 12 people. Yes having a cap does cause you to pay extra, but the end result is still your entire group having 12x of a heal doing 1/5 the single target heal.

Unless you are telling me when you recast it purges your old ticks off the original players healed. Which last I check years ago zos did not have any heal function this way.

Edit: If anything having a 6 person cap is a terrible useless idea because now they force the double pump and double the aoe smartheal checks on the server since you can bypass the "cap".

So you want to make Echoing Vigor require a ball group to see any use? You want it to require 12 people using it to make it as useful as one Resolving Vigor? Brother, you didn’t even know how it worked until about five minutes ago. Maybe stick to learning how the game works before you try to completely destroy Cyrodiil with misguided and misinformed healing nerfs.

Edit: Also, there are a ton of variables that determine who Vigor will hit. You might cast it five times while in combat and near all your teammates, but it might never hit one of the players.

All I am pointing out is that the skills can be designed in better ways and zos needs to make those decisions now. I was pointing out that regardless you can stack to have a 12 person heal doing 1/5 the heals of a single target heal.

If you want a 12 person heal in the game design it for 12 person groups. Instead of leaving the door open for abuse. If it wasn't overly efficient and abusable ball groups wouldn't be using it.

Again like I already suggested resolving could easily encompass the 1-4 man small group threshold. Echoing should be designed to encompass the 12 man threshold.

You might gain more traction talking about healing if your only responses were not entirely backed on character attacks and attempting to belittle people, for instance at any point you could have brought up the skill cost but you'd rather rage bait instead of actually talking about the game.

The_Meathead · January 15

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

In short, addons cannot increase lag in Cyrodiil because they never touch the heavy, server-side combat simulation.

I saw this said often enough and for so long that I more or less believed it at one point, but we had full confirmation in this thread (below) that AddOns had indeed impacted Cyrodiil performance in the past:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/686525/cyrodiil-imperial-city-community-q-a/p1

I'm far from expert and you probably (almost certainly!) know a great deal more about how they work than I do, but it seems worth looking into after what's said by Kevin in two places in that Q&A. We hear in his words both that AddOns and 3rd party can and have had such impact AND we hear (discouragingly imo) that the policing of such things is pretty loose and largely reliant on the community in identifying problems or offenses, rather than ZOS tightly monitoring such things at all times.

I personally think a week or two without AddOns in a Cyrodiil test is warranted, just to be sure, and asked for the same at the end of that Q&A.

That said, this is a tangent and a little off topic - but I'm pretty shocked there wasn't more of a community response to what was stated in that green text.

GulmarAvocado · January 15

This change, as it currently works and with the current proc condition, needs to be scrapped, and it cannot go live. If the team needs more time to target coordinated play in a fair way, then please take that time. But releasing any version of this while out of group healing can trigger a 33% to 50% healing taken debuff is not acceptable, for anyone playing in Cyrodiil.

On a basic design level, an ally should not be able to debuff another ally outside of their group just by trying to help them. That is the biggest issue with this idea. It creates a ton of problems, it punishes casual healing, it creates really bad situations for pugs, and it opens the door to obvious griefing and deliberate sabotage.

Until that proc condition is removed or fully reworked, this should not ship, regardless of whether the number is 33% or 50%, or whether the trigger is 3 or 5 HoTs. If we have to wait one or two more patches while the team looks at the feedback and suggestions people are posting here and in other threads, and lands on something that is actually fair, then that is the right move. It is better to take a bit longer and get it right than to rush out something that would make Cyrodiil worse for everyone.

Edit: typo fixes

Djiku · January 15

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

xFocused · January 15

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

Honestly..this is how it should be. Why should one player be able to have 3 or more of the same heal and shield up at all times? And this is coming from a solo player. You have a vigor on you? Then that one vigor stays until the CD is done, same with shields. This is why ball groups are so unkillable is because they have 3+ vigors, 3+ regens, then 3+ shields, then the procs from the heal/buff sets

MincMincMinc · January 15

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

No because this code is throughout every single skill in the game. Something like battlespirit simply lets them apply a conditional stat sheet change which is why they keep trying to bring up blanket stat cuts.

They technically could use the vengeance pve and pvp split skills system. However now you would be asking them to double the number of skills in the game. Which sucks for us PvP players, but you are never going to get the endgame PvE crowd to give up their copy paste BIS dps build.

Teeba_Shei · January 15

xFocused wrote: »

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

Honestly..this is how it should be. Why should one player be able to have 3 or more of the same heal and shield up at all times? And this is coming from a solo player. You have a vigor on you? Then that one vigor stays until the CD is done, same with shields. This is why ball groups are so unkillable is because they have 3+ vigors, 3+ regens, then 3+ shields, then the procs from the heal/buff sets

Again, more misinformed opinions are coming into this thread. You can't have more than one of the same shield effect on you. It’s important that people who actually understand and play the game are taken more seriously than those who don’t even grasp the basics. We don’t need people who lack the first clue about the game’s mechanics completely ruining Cyrodiil with misguided and misinformed healing nerfs.

Someone else in this thread gave a ton of opinions about how they thought the healing nerfs should be implemented, only for us to find out that they believed one cast of Echoing Vigor could hit 12 people at the same time. This demonstrates a total lack of game knowledge. It’s hard to take an opinion like that seriously when the person clearly doesn’t understand even the basic mechanics of the game.

If their fundamental understanding of the game is this basic, it makes sense that they would struggle with fighting ball groups. Expecting them to handle advanced mechanics is like expecting a first grader to solve algebra problems—it’s just not realistic.

DaisyRay · January 15

The_Meathead wrote: »

DaisyRay wrote: »

“Just make Echo a major buff and Radiating a minor buff. That way people are limited to one of each, and you don’t get those massively stacked HoTs.”

That was a suggestion from someone who understands the game way better than I do. It sounds reasonable to me, but honestly, I barely know the game mechanics. I don’t even see healing as a huge issue, and ballgroups don’t bother me much either. The lag they create feels like a bigger problem than the groups themselves. Because of that, I feel like @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_Kevin (or whoever actually handles suggestions) should just disable addons in pvp. That would save a lot of people from lag. I don't lag as often, but there have been times where zergs just vanished around me because they all crashed.

At the end of the day, I don’t really care if people stack heals. We can’t demand balance in one tiny corner of the game when the whole thing is already unbalanced. Unless the plan is to overhaul everything, I’d rather they just leave healing alone. I know that’s not the popular opinion, so if they do decide to change healing, the suggestion above seems like a good plan.

First, yay Daisy!

Second, I agree about the AddOns - and have asked a couple times now if perhaps a test period without them present in Cyrodiil might be possible.

Especially after the green text answers we got a few weeks ago spelled out just how loosely they're monitored and also confirmed that AddOns in the past have impacted server performance, I feel like you're on point in connecting the dots as a strong possibility. Whether it's data sharing between members or whatever else, certain Ballgroups most definitely bring lag that I almost never see otherwise.

It's an unpopular suggesting, because people love their AddOns, but I too think there's something there that warrants further digging.

Hihi! ;p

I've always felt that way too. A simple test wouldn't do any harm and would let us know once and for all if it could help. I hope they take us up on this idea since the only other options seems to be vengeance. No one wants vengeance.

xFocused · January 15

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

Honestly..this is how it should be. Why should one player be able to have 3 or more of the same heal and shield up at all times? And this is coming from a solo player. You have a vigor on you? Then that one vigor stays until the CD is done, same with shields. This is why ball groups are so unkillable is because they have 3+ vigors, 3+ regens, then 3+ shields, then the procs from the heal/buff sets

Again, more misinformed opinions are coming into this thread. You can't have more than one of the same shield effect on you. It’s important that people who actually understand and play the game are taken more seriously than those who don’t even grasp the basics. We don’t need people who lack the first clue about the game’s mechanics completely ruining Cyrodiil with misguided and misinformed healing nerfs.

Someone else in this thread gave a ton of opinions about how they thought the healing nerfs should be implemented, only for us to find out that they believed one cast of Echoing Vigor could hit 12 people at the same time. This demonstrates a total lack of game knowledge. It’s hard to take an opinion like that seriously when the person clearly doesn’t understand even the basic mechanics of the game.

I’ve been playing this game for years now, played all through some of the worst and best nerfs, metas and so forth when it comes to PvP. I can honestly say this is the worst that comped groups have been in PvP. Sure, maybe I shouldn’t have said shields can stack but the heals stacking is a huge issue at the moment and there needs to be a viable solution. Just last night there were two ball groups in Ash withstanding siege and 30-40 enemy players. Nothing even made a dent in their health bars and they only left the keep when they lost 1-2 players from their group. This is a problem. Comped groups shouldn’t be this unkillable force in the game. As I said in an earlier post, if they can’t figure out the cross heals solution then make sets that can counter these group viable again. Snake in the Stars was supposed to be a counter, it was dead on arrival. It’s kinda insane how the solo and PUG players have to suffer while comped groups are able to have free reign in Cyro 🤷🏼‍♂️

Teeba_Shei · January 15

xFocused wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

Honestly..this is how it should be. Why should one player be able to have 3 or more of the same heal and shield up at all times? And this is coming from a solo player. You have a vigor on you? Then that one vigor stays until the CD is done, same with shields. This is why ball groups are so unkillable is because they have 3+ vigors, 3+ regens, then 3+ shields, then the procs from the heal/buff sets

Again, more misinformed opinions are coming into this thread. You can't have more than one of the same shield effect on you. It’s important that people who actually understand and play the game are taken more seriously than those who don’t even grasp the basics. We don’t need people who lack the first clue about the game’s mechanics completely ruining Cyrodiil with misguided and misinformed healing nerfs.

Someone else in this thread gave a ton of opinions about how they thought the healing nerfs should be implemented, only for us to find out that they believed one cast of Echoing Vigor could hit 12 people at the same time. This demonstrates a total lack of game knowledge. It’s hard to take an opinion like that seriously when the person clearly doesn’t understand even the basic mechanics of the game.

I’ve been playing this game for years now, played all through some of the worst and best nerfs, metas and so forth when it comes to PvP. I can honestly say this is the worst that comped groups have been in PvP. Sure, maybe I shouldn’t have said shields can stack but the heals stacking is a huge issue at the moment and there needs to be a viable solution. Just last night there were two ball groups in Ash withstanding siege and 30-40 enemy players. Nothing even made a dent in their health bars and they only left the keep when they lost 1-2 players from their group. This is a problem. Comped groups shouldn’t be this unkillable force in the game. As I said in an earlier post, if they can’t figure out the cross heals solution then make sets that can counter these group viable again. Snake in the Stars was supposed to be a counter, it was dead on arrival. It’s kinda insane how the solo and PUG players have to suffer while comped groups are able to have free reign in Cyro 🤷🏼‍♂️

Even in your anecdotal example, a PUG group was able to successfully defend a keep against two ball groups simultaneously. If that’s possible, it suggests that ball groups aren’t inherently unstoppable. The fact that PUGs can still hold their own indicates that the system isn’t broken.

Snake in the Stars is an incredibly powerful counter to ball groups, but it has to be used alongside other tools. You can’t expect that simply applying it will instantly kill someone. Proc sets aren’t meant to be hard counters that immediately eliminate other players.

What exactly do you expect— that ZOS will nerf healing so much that a solo player or a PUG group could realistically compete against a coordinated ball group? Do you really think anyone would want to play a game like that?