Pain Points and Ideas for the Warden Class Refresh (plus Destruction staff)

ESO_Nightingale · January 15

CaptainVenom wrote: »

IMHO they need to rework Heavy Attacks to be either a charged, more powerful Lightning Ball (something like Skyrim's Chain Lightning, that hits hard and shocks nearby targets) or a channeled Flame/Ice Beam, as Staff HA is really inconsistent right now. And should ZOS choose to pick a charged lightning ball for Lightning Staves, they need to make all staves HA to not break stealth and invisibility. This is simply because all other weapons HA don't.

Ice Staves can be used for damage if you got a Critical Chance/Damage build btw... there's still Minor Brittle.

noblecron wrote: »

I think the biggest concern and question I have is will entire skill lines be removed. Like is sorc''s lightning going from sorc to Warden to fit the nature theme?

Highly doubt it. We still got subclasses.

Minor brittle isnt unique to ice staves anymore, its also a group buff, not a personal one, so every other build benefits from it significantly more.

ZhuJiuyin · January 15

LunaFlora wrote: »

i doubt it.
Poison in Dragonknight was not in the name of any skill line, it was only in a few morphs.

Winter's Embrace and Storm Calling are in name about frost and shock.

While the New DK rework is indeed exciting, considering Sorc's past experience of being ignored by the official team, and the many existing skills and sets whose names do not match their actual output, such as Monolith of Storms without Monolith, or Absorption Field that does not actually absorb anything, or Unstable Clannfear which is actually very stable, it is not surprising that a Storm Calling line without any shock damage appears.

noblecron · January 15

I just had a hilarious ironic thought

Half of us get rid of our sorcs cause of the increase theme to Daedric pacts and dark magic and then a few months later after the refresh we get pet skill styles that are aedric theme or Magne ge theme changing their looks completely XD

Turtle_Bot · January 15

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CaptainVenom wrote: »

IMHO they need to rework Heavy Attacks to be either a charged, more powerful Lightning Ball (something like Skyrim's Chain Lightning, that hits hard and shocks nearby targets) or a channeled Flame/Ice Beam, as Staff HA is really inconsistent right now. And should ZOS choose to pick a charged lightning ball for Lightning Staves, they need to make all staves HA to not break stealth and invisibility. This is simply because all other weapons HA don't.

Ice Staves can be used for damage if you got a Critical Chance/Damage build btw... there's still Minor Brittle.

noblecron wrote: »

I think the biggest concern and question I have is will entire skill lines be removed. Like is sorc''s lightning going from sorc to Warden to fit the nature theme?

Highly doubt it. We still got subclasses.

Minor brittle isnt unique to ice staves anymore, its also a group buff, not a personal one, so every other build benefits from it significantly more.

This has been a similar issue for Sorcs and Shock damage for ages now too. Inflicting minor vulnerability sounds like it's a really strong debuff for a damage type to have access to, but like minor brittle, it's a named group debuff and every damage type benefits from it significantly more than shock damage does (especially flame, poison and bleed that have unique and stacking debuffs), minor vulnerability has also been added to so many sources now that it's also no longer unique or a reason to bring a significant source of shock damage anymore for it beyond a weapon glyph.

I'd like to see concussed (shock damage status effect) get the Sundered treatment where it inflicts a named debuff on the target but also buffs the user of it in a small way (say +1% crit rate or +1% damage done for 3 seconds on proc?).
Chilled is a bit more difficult since it's so overloaded for tanking/support (snare + maim + brittle) that to also buff it significantly for DPS would make it extremely overloaded. It would require a full rework to frost damage as a whole and while warden seems the perfect time to do this, I'm not sure if ZOS has enough manpower to do this properly without making too many significant disruptions to tanking/support. Frost is a tough one to solve for sure.

ESO_Nightingale · January 15

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

CaptainVenom wrote: »

IMHO they need to rework Heavy Attacks to be either a charged, more powerful Lightning Ball (something like Skyrim's Chain Lightning, that hits hard and shocks nearby targets) or a channeled Flame/Ice Beam, as Staff HA is really inconsistent right now. And should ZOS choose to pick a charged lightning ball for Lightning Staves, they need to make all staves HA to not break stealth and invisibility. This is simply because all other weapons HA don't.

Ice Staves can be used for damage if you got a Critical Chance/Damage build btw... there's still Minor Brittle.

noblecron wrote: »

I think the biggest concern and question I have is will entire skill lines be removed. Like is sorc''s lightning going from sorc to Warden to fit the nature theme?

Highly doubt it. We still got subclasses.

Minor brittle isnt unique to ice staves anymore, its also a group buff, not a personal one, so every other build benefits from it significantly more.

This has been a similar issue for Sorcs and Shock damage for ages now too. Inflicting minor vulnerability sounds like it's a really strong debuff for a damage type to have access to, but like minor brittle, it's a named group debuff and every damage type benefits from it significantly more than shock damage does (especially flame, poison and bleed that have unique and stacking debuffs), minor vulnerability has also been added to so many sources now that it's also no longer unique or a reason to bring a significant source of shock damage anymore for it beyond a weapon glyph.

I'd like to see concussed (shock damage status effect) get the Sundered treatment where it inflicts a named debuff on the target but also buffs the user of it in a small way (say +1% crit rate or +1% damage done for 3 seconds on proc?).
Chilled is a bit more difficult since it's so overloaded for tanking/support (snare + maim + brittle) that to also buff it significantly for DPS would make it extremely overloaded. It would require a full rework to frost damage as a whole and while warden seems the perfect time to do this, I'm not sure if ZOS has enough manpower to do this properly without making too many significant disruptions to tanking/support. Frost is a tough one to solve for sure.

to be fair i dont think chilled needs anything else, what it's doing for frost dps is outputting a ton of damage and it makes us want to proc more of it as often as possible because its just a great source of output.

ESO_Nightingale · January 15

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

i doubt it.
Poison in Dragonknight was not in the name of any skill line, it was only in a few morphs.

Winter's Embrace and Storm Calling are in name about frost and shock.

While the New DK rework is indeed exciting, considering Sorc's past experience of being ignored by the official team, and the many existing skills and sets whose names do not match their actual output, such as Monolith of Storms without Monolith, or Absorption Field that does not actually absorb anything, or Unstable Clannfear which is actually very stable, it is not surprising that a Storm Calling line without any shock damage appears.

That wont happen

ZhuJiuyin · January 16

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

That wont happen

Yes, nobody wants it to happen. But based on how Sorc has been treated in the past, I'm not so optimistic.

ESO_Nightingale · January 16

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

That wont happen

Yes, nobody wants it to happen. But based on how Sorc has been treated in the past, I'm not so optimistic.

i really dont see what anyone would have to gain by removing shock damage from storm calling.

Turtle_Bot · January 17

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

That wont happen

Yes, nobody wants it to happen. But based on how Sorc has been treated in the past, I'm not so optimistic.

i really dont see what anyone would have to gain by removing shock damage from storm calling.

There would be nothing to gain, it's more of a fear/concern that stems from many past actions regarding making adjustments/changes to Sorc as to why there is a lack of optimism/direct concern surrounding Sorcs rework.

YandereGirlfriend · January 17

I would like to see more interactions from the class kit (abilities, passives) with the Concussed status effect.

Like others have said, applying Minor Vuln definitely ain't it because that debuff is ubiquitous and even if it weren't it just turns you into a buff-bot for everyone else rather than being useful specifically for you because you are a Sorcerer and not some other class. Give Sorcerers a specific reason to pursue the status effect and elevate it beyond the others for them.

Someone else can try to cook on whatever those mechanics should look like. But something broad like more damage or new mechanics to Concussed targets should be mandatory. As well as likely buffing the status effect damage for Sorcerers as we see with Wardens -> Chilled and Dragonknights -> Flame.

That said, status effects themselves are definitely on the verge of #DoinTooMuch and so perhaps leaving their specifics procs where they are and working more with the class skills/passives themselves is the better play.

FoolishOptimist · January 17

I think I would preference Bleed going to Nightblade to support both their Assassination and Siphoning Skill Lines (Blood Mage!) while Warden focuses on Frost and Poison as more seasonally thematic (Winter and Spring).

I’d love Corrupting Pollen to become a Venomcaller-like channeled effect that deals Poison damage in an AoE around the caster, as an option to differentiate the Arcanist’s Beam and the DK’s fire breath.

I agree the pull should be removed from Winter’s Embrace and given to Green Balance’s vine skill; one to pull player to target and one to pull target to player similar to chains but could maintain healing effects.

ESO_Nightingale · January 17

FoolishOptimist wrote: »

I think I would preference Bleed going to Nightblade to support both their Assassination and Siphoning Skill Lines (Blood Mage!) while Warden focuses on Frost and Poison as more seasonally thematic (Winter and Spring).

I’d love Corrupting Pollen to become a Venomcaller-like channeled effect that deals Poison damage in an AoE around the caster, as an option to differentiate the Arcanist’s Beam and the DK’s fire breath.

I agree the pull should be removed from Winter’s Embrace and given to Green Balance’s vine skill; one to pull player to target and one to pull target to player similar to chains but could maintain healing effects.

i wouldn't be against warden getting poison, but i feel like its just weird to me for bear and dive to deal poison damage, the reason why i think frost would work fine for them is due to the destinction of the damage types. magical damage types, like frost seem to make sense to me because the animals are already "storytelling magic" and so to imbue that warden magic with our "native element" of frost works, but to imbue it with poison feels weird since poison is one of those physical more materialistic type of damage types.

But, that is just my view. either way i dont mind if stamden's thing is bleed or poison or if nighblade gets poison or bleed because those damage types are both very similar in that they have a focus on DoTs and i think stamden could use a damage identity of "burst with small short duration lingering DoTs".

ESO_Nightingale · January 17

Also it should be mentioned, if they rework a morph of shalks to frost damage, they should be replaced with ice wraiths.

Soarora · January 17

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Also it should be mentioned, if they rework a morph of shalks to frost damage, they should be replaced with ice wraiths.

I’m curious how that would work animation-wise. In my mind, magshalks would be shalks made of ice or just flat out ice spikes shooting out of the ground. I could, however, see an ice wraith to replace blue betty.

ESO_Nightingale · January 17

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Also it should be mentioned, if they rework a morph of shalks to frost damage, they should be replaced with ice wraiths.

I’m curious how that would work animation-wise. In my mind, magshalks would be shalks made of ice or just flat out ice spikes shooting out of the ground. I could, however, see an ice wraith to replace blue betty.

they could easily reuse the concept of either of these attacks that the NPCs already do:

Shard Burst
The wraith burrows underground and bursts at its target's location, indicated by a red circle, dealing moderate physical damage and stunning. The wraith cannot be attacked both when it's about to dive and shortly after surfacing. Blocking prevents the stun. The wraith uses this ability regardless of distance.

or

Blood on the Water
The wraith charges forward, indicated by a red rectangle, dealing moderate frost damage, applying the Chilled effect and knocking down targets in its wake. It then leaves behind a trail of ice which heavily snares. Blocking prevents the knockdown.

Soarora · January 17

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Also it should be mentioned, if they rework a morph of shalks to frost damage, they should be replaced with ice wraiths.

I’m curious how that would work animation-wise. In my mind, magshalks would be shalks made of ice or just flat out ice spikes shooting out of the ground. I could, however, see an ice wraith to replace blue betty.

they could easily reuse the concept of either of these attacks that the NPCs already do:

Shard Burst
The wraith burrows underground and bursts at its target's location, indicated by a red circle, dealing moderate physical damage and stunning. The wraith cannot be attacked both when it's about to dive and shortly after surfacing. Blocking prevents the stun. The wraith uses this ability regardless of distance.

or

Blood on the Water
The wraith charges forward, indicated by a red rectangle, dealing moderate frost damage, applying the Chilled effect and knocking down targets in its wake. It then leaves behind a trail of ice which heavily snares. Blocking prevents the knockdown.

I genuinely did not think they had the ability to bury underground, now your suggestion makes a lot more sense hahaha. I can be on board with that!

ESO_Nightingale · January 17

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Also it should be mentioned, if they rework a morph of shalks to frost damage, they should be replaced with ice wraiths.

I’m curious how that would work animation-wise. In my mind, magshalks would be shalks made of ice or just flat out ice spikes shooting out of the ground. I could, however, see an ice wraith to replace blue betty.

they could easily reuse the concept of either of these attacks that the NPCs already do:

Shard Burst
The wraith burrows underground and bursts at its target's location, indicated by a red circle, dealing moderate physical damage and stunning. The wraith cannot be attacked both when it's about to dive and shortly after surfacing. Blocking prevents the stun. The wraith uses this ability regardless of distance.

or

Blood on the Water
The wraith charges forward, indicated by a red rectangle, dealing moderate frost damage, applying the Chilled effect and knocking down targets in its wake. It then leaves behind a trail of ice which heavily snares. Blocking prevents the knockdown.

I genuinely did not think they had the ability to bury underground, now your suggestion makes a lot more sense hahaha. I can be on board with that!

they sure do! go to eastmarch and check it out. you can see how placing 3 ice wraiths doing the "shard burst" attack could easily stand-in for scorch's shalks.

Zodiarkslayer · January 17

@ESO_Nightingale
I agree to most of your Warden proposals, under one caveat. And this is regarding your very first pain point. Class Identity.
In my opinion Frost damage and the animals/plants/nature theme of the Warden/Druid/Hermit of the Wilds archetype do not fit.

Don't get me wrong. Frost damage is awesome, I love it and I want to have Frost DPS characters in ESO. It is just: Why the Warden?

In my opinion all the idiosyncrasies of the class' identity stem from the fact, that at the time of release of the class, there were little to no sources for frost damage. And so it was slapped on to the latest and shiniest addition to the game. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but it hurt the class in the long run.

Frost damage needs its own class! It always did.

ESO_Nightingale · January 17

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

@ESO_Nightingale
I agree to most of your Warden proposals, under one caveat. And this is regarding your very first pain point. Class Identity.
In my opinion Frost damage and the animals/plants/nature theme of the Warden/Druid/Hermit of the Wilds archetype do not fit.

Don't get me wrong. Frost damage is awesome, I love it and I want to have Frost DPS characters in ESO. It is just: Why the Warden?

In my opinion all the idiosyncrasies of the class' identity stem from the fact, that at the time of release of the class, there were little to no sources for frost damage. And so it was slapped on to the latest and shiniest addition to the game. It probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but it hurt the class in the long run.

Frost damage needs its own class! It always did.

To be honest i just dont think theyll change up major class themes at this point in the game's cycle.

Zodiarkslayer · January 17

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

To be honest i just dont think they'll change up major class themes at this point in the game's cycle.

So do I. But I am right, aren't I?

ESO_Nightingale · January 17

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

To be honest i just dont think they'll change up major class themes at this point in the game's cycle.

So do I. But I am right, aren't I?

Yeah id prefer if it wasnt pidgeonholed into warden too but i can see a way to make it work.

Soarora · January 17

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Frost damage needs its own class! It always did.

My concern is the lack of class change tokens. Can’t keep warden as the frost class and make a new animal/plant class because that’d be bad for stamdens. Can’t keep the animal/plant and make a new class because that’d be bad for frostdens and tanks. A cryomage class would be great but only if ZOS can figure out class changes.

(P.S. I desire an aquamage class, could combine ice and water to have a half ice half water class since ice is… frozen water. But I presume I’m the only one who wants water magic considering it’s only because I love Maormer.)

LunaFlora · January 17

Soarora wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Frost damage needs its own class! It always did.

My concern is the lack of class change tokens. Can’t keep warden as the frost class and make a new animal/plant class because that’d be bad for stamdens. Can’t keep the animal/plant and make a new class because that’d be bad for frostdens and tanks. A cryomage class would be great but only if ZOS can figure out class changes.

(P.S. I desire an aquamage class, could combine ice and water to have a half ice half water class since ice is… frozen water. But I presume I’m the only one who wants water magic considering it’s only because I love Maormer.)

i love Maormer and also really want water magic!

but i do want Winter's Embrace to stay as part of Warden.

Whizzinglane · January 18

AzuraFan wrote: »

...It would be nice to get rid of the requirement to slot the bear [or the wolf or eagle... we need new animals companions ] on both bars...

I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. The animal companion(s) for the Warden should not be an Ultimate but a summon one similar to the Sorcerer's pet(s).

Anti_Virus · January 18

imo frost damage would be best on necromancer

Radiate77 · January 18

Anti_Virus wrote: »

imo frost damage would be best on necromancer

Either that or Disease.

Soarora · January 18

Anti_Virus wrote: »

imo frost damage would be best on necromancer

Thing is, necromancer is necromancer no matter how you splice it. Warden is more vague and can be spliced into a cryomancer class or a druid class. Just like how sorcerer can be spliced into lightning mage or summoner.

Radiate77 · January 18

It’s already been discussed at length, but I truly feel like we need an Alteration Staff to come out so we can reclaim our Frost Destruction Staff.

ESO_Nightingale · January 18

Soarora wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

imo frost damage would be best on necromancer

Thing is, necromancer is necromancer no matter how you splice it. Warden is more vague and can be spliced into a cryomancer class or a druid class. Just like how sorcerer can be spliced into lightning mage or summoner.

Yeah i wouldnt mind it being a necro thing. But its far too late to change it now. Warden is the frost class like it or not.

ESO_Nightingale · January 18

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would like to see more interactions from the class kit (abilities, passives) with the Concussed status effect.

Like others have said, applying Minor Vuln definitely ain't it because that debuff is ubiquitous and even if it weren't it just turns you into a buff-bot for everyone else rather than being useful specifically for you because you are a Sorcerer and not some other class. Give Sorcerers a specific reason to pursue the status effect and elevate it beyond the others for them.

Someone else can try to cook on whatever those mechanics should look like. But something broad like more damage or new mechanics to Concussed targets should be mandatory. As well as likely buffing the status effect damage for Sorcerers as we see with Wardens -> Chilled and Dragonknights -> Flame.

That said, status effects themselves are definitely on the verge of #DoinTooMuch and so perhaps leaving their specifics procs where they are and working more with the class skills/passives themselves is the better play.

Yeah the issue is that sorc has no interaction with its concussed status effect.

If critical surge also increased your concussion damage and proc rate, youd see it get a lot higher. Id also love to see a passive on storm calling that's like

When you apply the concussed status effect you also apply the sundered status effect.
When you apply the sundered status effect, you also apply the concussed status effect.
These effects have a shared 2 second cooldown.