Yeah this is definitely one of the few changes that came about and I thought straight away this isn’t good, it was kind of moved heavy attack but this doesn’t really help the issue because heavy attack and tanking don’t go hand in hand too well😂 id would much prefer to see it worked into another passive something like
When casting a Dragonknight ability in combat every 5seconds restore 5% of your max stamina
At 20k stam this would equal somewhere in the region of 1000 stam

Tanking used to be an active playstyle where heavy attacking was essential.

That's generally not true. Heavy attacking isn't something that is really needed or has been needed with good resource management. It's something that players can weave in and sometimes it's okay to, but it has never been an essential tool of tanks.

That said, I am very happy about this change.

Are there any changes that you don't like?

Helping Hands now requires a Heavy Attack, but provides SIGNIFICANTLY more resources through Off-Balance, a buff that helps your entire group.

2 Global cooldowns used to trigger helping hands generates 2240 stamina from the passive. The heavy attack triggering Mountain Giant only returns 1430 stamina from the passive.

Using multiple global cooldowns to get stamina from a heavy attack is generally inferior to getting that stamina back while casting Igneous shield which has the benefits of shielding oneself, shielding team members, getting a great buff to healing done, and triggering minor brutality.

There are some other comparison points too. For example, casting igneous shield for helping hands costs magicka. Heavy attacking comes with additional risks. Overall, it's an inaccuracy to write that there are "SIGNIFIGANTLY" more resource being gained via this change. That's especially because you skew the analysis by writing "through off-balance." At that point, one would be assuming there being multiple heavy attacks within the same 9 second window and if someone really is doing that, what are they really doing? Someone certainly doesn't need that much surplus stamina within that short amount of time. They would also look fairly silly and novice when heavy attacking so much.

This change will benefit Earthen Heart viability in 4-man content, greatly, as players running with a Dragonknight who regularly tanks will be able to slot the Exploiter CP for a free 10% damage.

You are exaggerating by writing that the passive use will cause a free 10% damage. From what I've found, "Off Balance has a cooldown of 22 seconds, but only a duration of 7 seconds. So your target gets 7 seconds Off Balance, then becones immune to Off Balance for 15 seconds." That would mean that there are 15 seconds of time where that 10% damage bonus from Exploiter isn't in use. Because a player would lose a different champion point passive that could boost damage, they would be losing 22 seconds of what ever that damage boost is in order to gain 7 seconds of 10% increased damage by off balance.

Earthen Heart is perfectly viable, even great, as things are on live. It's strange to be writing that the new passive will be helping Earthen Heart's viability within the context of how things are on live. Earthen Heart would be perfectly "viable" post-update if it staye the same as it is on live too. If anything, the changes to the passives of the Earthen Heart line hurt the skill line.

Also, viability toward what? If the goal of the update is pure-classing, then a pure-DK is stuck with whatever skills are in their trees anyhow. The place where viability matters more is if the skill line would get a seat at the sub-classing table. But sub-classing is a no-no stinky thing, so let's not talk about that.

I'd like to note that out of the 4 points you made, three of them seem as though they are stetches of the honest truth. I have no way to confirm what your personal preferences are, so I will assume that you are being honest when saying that you are happy about the change. Perhaps you should reevaluate your position though since it seems to be founded on exaggerations.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tanking used to be an active playstyle where heavy attacking was essential.

That's generally not true. Heavy attacking isn't something that is really needed or has been needed with good resource management. It's something that players can weave in and sometimes it's okay to, but it has never been an essential tool of tanks.

That said, I am very happy about this change.

Are there any changes that you don't like?

Helping Hands now requires a Heavy Attack, but provides SIGNIFICANTLY more resources through Off-Balance, a buff that helps your entire group.

2 Global cooldowns used to trigger helping hands generates 2240 stamina from the passive. The heavy attack triggering Mountain Giant only returns 1430 stamina from the passive.

Using multiple global cooldowns to get stamina from a heavy attack is generally inferior to getting that stamina back while casting Igneous shield which has the benefits of shielding oneself, shielding team members, getting a great buff to healing done, and triggering minor brutality.

There are some other comparison points too. For example, casting igneous shield for helping hands costs magicka. Heavy attacking comes with additional risks. Overall, it's an inaccuracy to write that there are "SIGNIFIGANTLY" more resource being gained via this change. That's especially because you skew the analysis by writing "through off-balance." At that point, one would be assuming there being multiple heavy attacks within the same 9 second window and if someone really is doing that, what are they really doing? Someone certainly doesn't need that much surplus stamina within that short amount of time. They would also look fairly silly and novice when heavy attacking so much.

This change will benefit Earthen Heart viability in 4-man content, greatly, as players running with a Dragonknight who regularly tanks will be able to slot the Exploiter CP for a free 10% damage.

You are exaggerating by writing that the passive use will cause a free 10% damage. From what I've found, "Off Balance has a cooldown of 22 seconds, but only a duration of 7 seconds. So your target gets 7 seconds Off Balance, then becones immune to Off Balance for 15 seconds." That would mean that there are 15 seconds of time where that 10% damage bonus from Exploiter isn't in use. Because a player would lose a different champion point passive that could boost damage, they would be losing 22 seconds of what ever that damage boost is in order to gain 7 seconds of 10% increased damage by off balance.

Earthen Heart is perfectly viable, even great, as things are on live. It's strange to be writing that the new passive will be helping Earthen Heart's viability within the context of how things are on live. Earthen Heart would be perfectly "viable" post-update if it staye the same as it is on live too. If anything, the changes to the passives of the Earthen Heart line hurt the skill line.

Also, viability toward what? If the goal of the update is pure-classing, then a pure-DK is stuck with whatever skills are in their trees anyhow. The place where viability matters more is if the skill line would get a seat at the sub-classing table. But sub-classing is a no-no stinky thing, so let's not talk about that.

I'd like to note that out of the 4 points you made, three of them seem as though they are stetches of the honest truth. I have no way to confirm what your personal preferences are, so I will assume that you are being honest when saying that you are happy about the change. Perhaps you should reevaluate your position though since it seems to be founded on exaggerations.

Nothing about what I wrote is false or exaggerated.
Listen, this is now the 3rd or 4th thread where you’ve tried to come at my posts from a sideways slant, at this point I’m going to start recommending that you ignore me.

You are clearly in a state of perpetual unhappiness and we are diametrically opposed. It doesn’t take a PHD in mathematics to tell a lot of work went into this and as a theorycrafter this is top to bottom good.

Support DK is stronger
DPS DK is stronger
PvP DK is stronger

I do not subscribe to this idea that because something is being replaced it is inherently bad, and attempting to twist my words when I have already asked you to stop, nicely, while still providing you the dignity of a reply… is starting to annoy even me.






But what do I know?
I’ve only been around forever and done everything.

Resource management in the skills instead of passive was intended though to make running pure dk more favorable than subclassing it. I've been testing things and have zero resource issues while still pulling around 130k dps on pure dk. Otherwise just subclass Aedric and run Luminous Spear Shards for damage passives as well as being able to activate your own shard for both resources.

Radiate77 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tanking used to be an active playstyle where heavy attacking was essential.

That's generally not true. Heavy attacking isn't something that is really needed or has been needed with good resource management. It's something that players can weave in and sometimes it's okay to, but it has never been an essential tool of tanks.

That said, I am very happy about this change.

Are there any changes that you don't like?

Helping Hands now requires a Heavy Attack, but provides SIGNIFICANTLY more resources through Off-Balance, a buff that helps your entire group.

2 Global cooldowns used to trigger helping hands generates 2240 stamina from the passive. The heavy attack triggering Mountain Giant only returns 1430 stamina from the passive.

Using multiple global cooldowns to get stamina from a heavy attack is generally inferior to getting that stamina back while casting Igneous shield which has the benefits of shielding oneself, shielding team members, getting a great buff to healing done, and triggering minor brutality.

There are some other comparison points too. For example, casting igneous shield for helping hands costs magicka. Heavy attacking comes with additional risks. Overall, it's an inaccuracy to write that there are "SIGNIFIGANTLY" more resource being gained via this change. That's especially because you skew the analysis by writing "through off-balance." At that point, one would be assuming there being multiple heavy attacks within the same 9 second window and if someone really is doing that, what are they really doing? Someone certainly doesn't need that much surplus stamina within that short amount of time. They would also look fairly silly and novice when heavy attacking so much.

This change will benefit Earthen Heart viability in 4-man content, greatly, as players running with a Dragonknight who regularly tanks will be able to slot the Exploiter CP for a free 10% damage.

You are exaggerating by writing that the passive use will cause a free 10% damage. From what I've found, "Off Balance has a cooldown of 22 seconds, but only a duration of 7 seconds. So your target gets 7 seconds Off Balance, then becones immune to Off Balance for 15 seconds." That would mean that there are 15 seconds of time where that 10% damage bonus from Exploiter isn't in use. Because a player would lose a different champion point passive that could boost damage, they would be losing 22 seconds of what ever that damage boost is in order to gain 7 seconds of 10% increased damage by off balance.

Earthen Heart is perfectly viable, even great, as things are on live. It's strange to be writing that the new passive will be helping Earthen Heart's viability within the context of how things are on live. Earthen Heart would be perfectly "viable" post-update if it staye the same as it is on live too. If anything, the changes to the passives of the Earthen Heart line hurt the skill line.

Also, viability toward what? If the goal of the update is pure-classing, then a pure-DK is stuck with whatever skills are in their trees anyhow. The place where viability matters more is if the skill line would get a seat at the sub-classing table. But sub-classing is a no-no stinky thing, so let's not talk about that.

I'd like to note that out of the 4 points you made, three of them seem as though they are stetches of the honest truth. I have no way to confirm what your personal preferences are, so I will assume that you are being honest when saying that you are happy about the change. Perhaps you should reevaluate your position though since it seems to be founded on exaggerations.

But what do I know?

It doesn't matter what one knows. It matters what ones actions are.

If you aren't stretching the truth, then provide the theory that what you have previously written is reasonable.

How exactly are "SIGNIFIGANTLY" more resources being made by the new passive compared to Helping Hands? That's what was written, so you must have an idea about how that statement is true, correct?

Also, what is the point of your screenshots? Would it imply that someone who has finished those achievements, such as myself, before you has been around foreverer and therefore has a more valid perspective? The thing about the truth is that someone can stretch it exactly because of a biased view set in by time. If someone starts playing this year, they could potentially come to know the truth too.

It's good that you have some experiences, but it's what you do with the experience which counts.

BruteRX7 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Okay, but part of the DK identity are the core skills and ways of using them that exist on live and have existed there for a decade. The proposed changes are upending that identity due to the sins of sub classing and there isn't any indication that these changes will actually impact sub-classing in a meaningful way.

So stop thinking of the old ways of using them and figure out how to use them with the changes made? Cause resource management is not an issue at all. Even just equipping Core of Flame(either morph) if you're having issues with sustain. The combustion passive grants resource management by applying burning status effect to the enemies. It all plays off of each other...some skills increasing chance of applying burning status and some skills guaranteeing burning status.

I don't really care about adaptation. There are all kinds of cruel and extreme things that people can overcome. Adaptation will happen regardless of what happens.

Part of why there shouldn't be such heavy handed changes is cause this update is focusing on class identity. If parts of the fundamental DK kit such as where minor brutality comes from can be freely messed around with, then that dynamic means that DK has no identity to be respected.

Cone of Flame or Combustion are minor game pieces to me as I don't DD.

Radiate77 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

How exactly are "SIGNIFIGANTLY" more resources being made by the new passive compared to Helping Hands? That's what was written, so you must have an idea about how that statement is true, correct?

Some of us have been using Off-Balance for years, others have been around when it was changed.

When hitting an Off-Balance target you’re going to land almost double your resources that you would have normally received, so priming a target for off-balance and then Heavy Attacking again at any point within the 7 second window you will have doubled your Helping Hands return without using any Magicka, except now your whole group is going to do more Heavy Attack damage and also benefit from that same resource return.

Thank you for sharing this perspective. A tank performing multiple heavy attacks in this way seems like a corner case while the current Helping Hands functionality is strong enough to be meta.

I suppose that the change technically could assist damage dealers in keeping up resources, but it is a pretty rare thing for me to find out that a DD in group is struggling with resources. It has happened, but it is even more rare that they keep having that issue and find themselves resorting to heavy attacks.

BruteRX7 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I don't really care about adaptation. There are all kinds of cruel and extreme things that people can overcome. Adaptation will happen regardless of what happens.

Part of why there shouldn't be such heavy handed changes is cause this update is focusing on class identity. If parts of the fundamental DK kit such as where minor brutality comes from can be freely messed around with, then that dynamic means that DK has no identity to be respected.

Cone of Flame or Combustion are minor game pieces to me as I don't DD.

I main a tank as well, if you're relying on helping hands for resources maybe reevaluate the build. Sure it's helpful, but not needed. If you aren't subclassed on a support roll you're missing out on alot of group utility in content. Lots of other class skills/passives to benefit from that have resource management.

The whole point of the class rework was to make subclassing NOT a requirement for content, but for pureclass to be viable and just as strong.

I would like to add to this that Helping Hands and the ease of sustain it added was one of the reasons many people learn on DK tanks. Taking it away and asking new tanks to heavy attack instead is just making it needlessly more difficult to learn. And every eso player can agree there's already too few tanks as it is.

On Live: You spend 3,000-4,000 Magicka for 1120 Stamina.
This is -1880 resources at best.


On PTS: You do one heavy attack and get 1430 Stamina.
This is +1430 resources at worst.

I’m still trying to find the exaggeration here in saying that 1430 is more than -1880 net resources?

Yea I tested my pureclass dk tank on pts with a buddy duoing some vet dlc dungeons. So no other sustain support, all reliant on myself. With core of flame(heal morph) I was able to purposely perma-block on bosses and trash pulls while liberally casting stamina breathe to force stress my stamina, and I was able to perma-block far better than I ever could hope to do with helping hands. I didn't even have igneous shield on my bars.


The removal of helping hands is a nerf if you subclass. As I'm biased, I greatly prefer this outcome and feel as this is how it should be. With these changes my dk tank actually felt powerful and fun to use rather than forcing myself out of restricting self-inflicted principles.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yea I tested my pureclass dk tank on pts with a buddy duoing some vet dlc dungeons. So no other sustain support, all reliant on myself. With core of flame(heal morph) I was able to purposely perma-block on bosses and trash pulls while liberally casting stamina breathe to force stress my stamina, and I was able to perma-block far better than I ever could hope to do with helping hands. I didn't even have igneous shield on my bars.


The removal of helping hands is a nerf if you subclass. As I'm biased, I greatly prefer this outcome and feel as this is how it should be. With these changes my dk tank actually felt powerful and fun to use rather than forcing myself out of restricting self-inflicted principles.

This logic doesn't make any sense. The helping hands nerf is a nerf to anyone who used helping hands. If your point is that losing Helping Hands isn't a bid deal for pure DK, then it's probably even less of a big deal of sub-classed players. At least you admit the your inherent bias built into this logic?