Quick Post about 5 sticky hot limit

Alchimiste1 · January 14

I think people might be blowing out of proportion the amount of people this actually would affect.

I've quicky logged on pts and tested a few things.
The following abilities DO NOT contribute to the sticky hot limit before debuff:

Crit surge
blood craze
extended ritual
cinder storm
healing orbs

abilities that DO count towards the limit

restoring focus
vigor
radiation regens
cauterize

as it stand, I feel like this change would really only target people who have plenty of echoing and radiant regens on them like ball groups.
Feel free to leave a comment about other abilities you want me to test.

YandereGirlfriend · January 14

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I think people might be blowing out of proportion the amount of people this actually would affect.

I've quicky logged on pts and tested a few things.
The following abilities DO NOT contribute to the sticky hot limit before debuff:
Crit surge

blood craze

extended ritual

cinder storm

healing orbs

abilities that DO count towards the limit
restoring focus

vigor

radiation regens

cauterize

as it stand, I feel like this change would really only target people who have plenty of echoing and radiant regens on them like ball groups.
Feel free to leave a comment about other abilities you want me to test.

Conveniently omitted:

DO APPLY:

1. Templar Incantation and morphs
2. Templar Rune (!!!)
3. Dragonknight Green Dragon Blood (!!!)
4. Soul Siphon HOT
5. Warden Trees HOT
6. Barrier HOT
7. Necromancer AOE burst heal HOT
8. Nightblade Dark Cloak (!!!)
9. Arcanist Evolving Runemend
10. Arcanist Tidal Chakram
11. Necromancer Hungry Scythe
12. Necromancer Bitter Harvest and morphs (!!!)
13. Warden Polar Wind (!!!)
14. Warden Nature's Embrace
15. Psijic Meditate and morphs
16. Nightblade Funnel Health
17. Restoration Staff ultimate Panacea and morphs
18. Restoration Staff Healing Ward
19. All Scribing HOTs

SYNERGIES:

1. Warden Harvest
2. Nightblade Hidden Refresh

POTENTIALLY:

1. Burning Embers

PLUS TONS OF SETS

Most of those above are CORE CLASS SKILLS that are now essentially outlawed in PvP formats.

The U49 framework needs to be sent completely back to the lab and something better thought-up to replace it.

The best solutions is limiting sticky HOTs to one copy per morph and disallowing them to stack with themselves.

Alchimiste1 · January 14

"Conveniently omitted" ? @YandereGirlfriend

what are you talking about I said I quickly tested not that I tested everything. also, I did test templar rune its right on the list if you can read.

also, why would some of those be outlawed? 5 isn't an insignificant amount.

Radiate77 · January 14

Are we certain that Blood Craze & Rend are not affected? Can someone test this?

MXVIIDREAM · January 14

Did they not roll this change back yesterday

Alchimiste1 · January 14

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Did they not roll this change back yesterday

they proposed a 5 or more hots instead of 3

tomofhyrule · January 14

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Did they not roll this change back yesterday

There was another post in that thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8416632#Comment_8416632

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%
We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5
There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

YandereGirlfriend · January 14

We can see from my post above that:

1. The breadth of the punishment falls far wider than most people imagine. It is NOT just Radiating Regen and Vigor that is impacted. Tons of everyday healing abilities that solo players take for granted fall into the outlawed category, including supremely "bread and butter" abilities such as Templar Rune, Polar Wind, Necromancer Tether, etc.).

2. Certain classes (e.g. Necromancer) are punished incredibly severely vs. other classes (e.g. Sorcerer) by having a huge proportion of their overall class healing abilities falling into the outlawed category. How is this fair and balanced? Obviously, it isn't.

This proposal remains incredibly slapdash and half-baked and should never see the light of day.

Alchimiste1 · January 14

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

We can see from my post above that:

1. The breadth of the punishment falls far wider than most people imagine. It is NOT just Radiating Regen and Vigor that is impacted. Tons of everyday healing abilities that solo players take for granted fall into the outlawed category, including supremely "bread and butter" abilities such as Templar Rune, Polar Wind, Necromancer Tether, etc.).

2. Certain classes (e.g. Necromancer) are punished incredibly severely vs. other classes (e.g. Sorcerer) by having a huge proportion of their overall class healing abilities falling into the outlawed category. How is this fair and balanced? Obviously, it isn't.

This proposal remains incredibly slapdash and half-baked and should never see the light of day.

you know I just went down the list of abilities you wrote, and I think you'd be surprised that some of the things you listed arent actually affected. For example necromancer healing tether and green dragon blood.

Can you go on pts and test this for yourself and confirm the results ? maybe I made a mistake

Alchimiste1 · January 14

Radiate77 wrote: »

Are we certain that Blood Craze & Rend are not affected? Can someone test this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuA6n7y2Xpw

looks that way to me.
5437 healing soul with just vigor, 5437 with vigor+ blood craze, 5437 with vigor + blood craze + radiating

Artisian0001 · January 14

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

"Conveniently omitted" ? @YandereGirlfriend

what are you talking about I said I quickly tested not that I tested everything. also, I did test templar rune its right on the list if you can read.

also, why would some of those be outlawed? 5 isn't an insignificant amount.

You said it would mostly affect ballgroups because these are the ones you've tested. If I log on and only test 3 and they all affect ballgroups because I conveniently only tested those, that would be extremely dishonest. You left out a huge list that ruin it for smaller groups as well, and it still doesn't affect shields which is a major issue because most large groups already use them, and even more would if it went through.

Alchimiste1 · January 14

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

"Conveniently omitted" ? @YandereGirlfriend

what are you talking about I said I quickly tested not that I tested everything. also, I did test templar rune its right on the list if you can read.

also, why would some of those be outlawed? 5 isn't an insignificant amount.

You said it would mostly affect ballgroups because these are the ones you've tested. If I log on and only test 3 and they all affect ballgroups because I conveniently only tested those, that would be extremely dishonest. You left out a huge list that ruin it for smaller groups as well, and it still doesn't affect shields which is a major issue because most large groups already use them, and even more would if it went through.

I am not being dishonest.
tell me which to test and I will otherwise test them yourself

MincMincMinc · January 14

The implementation of the rule though doesn't fix the reason for the rule in the first place.

>> There is too much heal over time stacking in pvp

The problem isn't that all heals are too high for all players. We can go as far to argue that for solo and smallman players, there are no issues with hots. We only see the issues as we get to larger and more dense groups abusing the same 2-3 BIS skills without any gamerules to softcap the issue.

You go and make one TYPE of heal "banned" well now we have 12 person groups spamming aoe ground hots. I can only imagine adding the ground calcs and persistence in large fights will impact the server even worse than doing a single initial aoe check.

Either make the change to not allow hots/dots/effects to stack and be abused. Or go to the individual skills and limit them there. EX: echoing could only be 8m and affect 3 group members at a time.

Artisian0001 · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The implementation of the rule though doesn't fix the reason for the rule in the first place.

>> There is too much heal over time stacking in pvp

The problem isn't that all heals are too high for all players. We can go as far to argue that for solo and smallman players, there are no issues with hots. We only see the issues as we get to larger and more dense groups abusing the same 2-3 BIS skills without any gamerules to softcap the issue.

You go and make one TYPE of heal "banned" well now we have 12 person groups spamming aoe ground hots. I can only imagine adding the ground calcs and persistence in large fights will impact the server even worse than doing a single initial aoe check.

Either make the change to not allow hots/dots/effects to stack and be abused. Or go to the individual skills and limit them there. EX: echoing could only be 8m and affect 3 group members at a time.

Shields still being unaffected is insane, idk how it was mentioned so many times on that thread and wasn't even mentioned in the follow up.

YandereGirlfriend · January 14

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

We can see from my post above that:

1. The breadth of the punishment falls far wider than most people imagine. It is NOT just Radiating Regen and Vigor that is impacted. Tons of everyday healing abilities that solo players take for granted fall into the outlawed category, including supremely "bread and butter" abilities such as Templar Rune, Polar Wind, Necromancer Tether, etc.).

2. Certain classes (e.g. Necromancer) are punished incredibly severely vs. other classes (e.g. Sorcerer) by having a huge proportion of their overall class healing abilities falling into the outlawed category. How is this fair and balanced? Obviously, it isn't.

This proposal remains incredibly slapdash and half-baked and should never see the light of day.

you know I just went down the list of abilities you wrote, and I think you'd be surprised that some of the things you listed arent actually affected. For example necromancer healing tether and green dragon blood.

Can you go on pts and test this for yourself and confirm the results ? maybe I made a mistake

I'm testing them right now (see updated list).

Green Dragon Blood most definitely applies the debuff.

I removed Structured Entropy and Necromancer Tether.
Added Psijic Meditate and Templar ulti as they are, bizarrely, affected. And more evidence that this change is slapdash and not at all thought-through. There is zero consistency in these rules.

Lest you forget, I'm the one calling for the complete abolition of sticky HOT stacking, FYI.

gariondavey · January 14

The thing with spamming ground hots is you have to stand in that area, which makes you easier to hit with aoes and siege. If hots were limited to 1 per named spell, and shields were capped at 60 percent max hp or something like that, ball groups would be way way way more killable.
Make another change like "pve support sets don't work in pvp (similar to how rallying cry doesn't work in pve)" and now ball groups have lost a huge amount of their strength.

MincMincMinc · January 14

gariondavey wrote: »

The thing with spamming ground hots is you have to stand in that area, which makes you easier to hit with aoes and siege. If hots were limited to 1 per named spell, and shields were capped at 60 percent max hp or something like that, ball groups would be way way way more killable.
Make another change like "pve support sets don't work in pvp (similar to how rallying cry doesn't work in pve)" and now ball groups have lost a huge amount of their strength.

Except you can just spam recast while at full movement speed because you have snowtreaders on (which is the counter argument to the whole ground cast hots are fine)...............If we all remember from the 2015-17 era zos had to remove the aoe group snare immunity because it was too strong and abusive. Now ball groups have it perfectly all the time guaranteed, not tied to a skill.

Something like snow treaders should give the immunity while sprinting, but you have -50% sprint speed. They still need to activate sprint, pay the cost, and cant cast during full immunity.

Alchimiste1 · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The implementation of the rule though doesn't fix the reason for the rule in the first place.

>> There is too much heal over time stacking in pvp

The problem isn't that all heals are too high for all players. We can go as far to argue that for solo and smallman players, there are no issues with hots. We only see the issues as we get to larger and more dense groups abusing the same 2-3 BIS skills without any gamerules to softcap the issue.

You go and make one TYPE of heal "banned" well now we have 12 person groups spamming aoe ground hots. I can only imagine adding the ground calcs and persistence in large fights will impact the server even worse than doing a single initial aoe check.

Either make the change to not allow hots/dots/effects to stack and be abused. Or go to the individual skills and limit them there. EX: echoing could only be 8m and affect 3 group members at a time.

I'm not disagreeing that it would be better to just cap the amount of echoing or radiant regens you can have at a time I'm just saying that I'd be willing to try this proposed approach if that is the best they can do with the current coding.

Alchimiste1 · January 14

@YandereGirlfriend good catch on the GDB, I crit the first 2 times I cast and let the vigor run out after

J18696 · January 14

I would personally like to try a patch with the proposed 5 limit just to see how it plays out vs nothing at all while I agree its not a end all solution I think its a somewhat liveable compromise to try out for the meantime

While I understand hitting the limit wont be necessarily difficult and groups will still abuse shields in the recent dev QnA going over server performance degradation since the hardware refresh alot of it sounded like it was contributed by player behaviour evolving over time so maybe this might shift player behaviour back towards what it was in the meantime

MincMincMinc · January 14

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The implementation of the rule though doesn't fix the reason for the rule in the first place.

>> There is too much heal over time stacking in pvp

The problem isn't that all heals are too high for all players. We can go as far to argue that for solo and smallman players, there are no issues with hots. We only see the issues as we get to larger and more dense groups abusing the same 2-3 BIS skills without any gamerules to softcap the issue.

You go and make one TYPE of heal "banned" well now we have 12 person groups spamming aoe ground hots. I can only imagine adding the ground calcs and persistence in large fights will impact the server even worse than doing a single initial aoe check.

Either make the change to not allow hots/dots/effects to stack and be abused. Or go to the individual skills and limit them there. EX: echoing could only be 8m and affect 3 group members at a time.

I'm not disagreeing that it would be better to just cap the amount of echoing or radiant regens you can have at a time I'm just saying that I'd be willing to try this proposed approach if that is the best they can do with the current coding.

IMO, they would have been better off bringing more systems into vengeance to get it to a middle ground point. Imagine lets say it had gear, mundus, enchants, attributes, passives. Except we excluded potentially cascading proc effects from sets, passives, weapon enchants, poisons, status effects for now.

So get this halfway mark between the beta quality vengeance and live GH. Then you would conduct a ton of rule change tests like no stacking effects. Or Aoe caps on skills. Maybe no aoe caps on ults. Crosshealing, no crosshealing. Test hots that purge themselves if they heal at max hp twice in a row. ETC.

ToddIngram · January 14

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I think people might be blowing out of proportion the amount of people this actually would affect.

I've quicky logged on pts and tested a few things.
The following abilities DO NOT contribute to the sticky hot limit before debuff:
Crit surge

blood craze

extended ritual

cinder storm

healing orbs

abilities that DO count towards the limit
restoring focus

vigor

radiation regens

cauterize

as it stand, I feel like this change would really only target people who have plenty of echoing and radiant regens on them like ball groups.
Feel free to leave a comment about other abilities you want me to test.

Conveniently omitted:

DO APPLY:

1. Templar Incantation and morphs
2. Templar Rune (!!!)
3. Dragonknight Green Dragon Blood (!!!)
4. Soul Siphon HOT
5. Warden Trees HOT
6. Barrier HOT
7. Necromancer AOE burst heal HOT
8. Nightblade Dark Cloak (!!!)
9. Arcanist Evolving Runemend
10. Arcanist Tidal Chakram
11. Necromancer Hungry Scythe
12. Necromancer Bitter Harvest and morphs (!!!)
13. Warden Polar Wind (!!!)
14. Warden Nature's Embrace
15. Psijic Meditate and morphs
16. Nightblade Funnel Health
17. Restoration Staff ultimate Panacea and morphs
18. Restoration Staff Healing Ward
19. All Scribing HOTs

SYNERGIES:

1. Warden Harvest
2. Nightblade Hidden Refresh

POTENTIALLY:

1. Burning Embers

PLUS TONS OF SETS

Most of those above are CORE CLASS SKILLS that are now essentially outlawed in PvP formats.

The U49 framework needs to be sent completely back to the lab and something better thought-up to replace it.

The best solutions is limiting sticky HOTs to one copy per morph and disallowing them to stack with themselves.

This does appear to be another case of ZOS trying a fix that doesn't really address the problem and will adversely effect smaller groups.

Why can't they just cap heals as one instance of each HoT on every player at any given time? Otherwise ball groups will just figure out which heals aren't limited and use only those.

I don't see the fix ZOS is proposing as getting the job done. We'll see how it goes though. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. In the end this system is just going to make ball groups stronger compared to the rest of the population I think.

J18696 · January 14

ToddIngram wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I think people might be blowing out of proportion the amount of people this actually would affect.

I've quicky logged on pts and tested a few things.
The following abilities DO NOT contribute to the sticky hot limit before debuff:
Crit surge

blood craze

extended ritual

cinder storm

healing orbs

abilities that DO count towards the limit
restoring focus

vigor

radiation regens

cauterize

as it stand, I feel like this change would really only target people who have plenty of echoing and radiant regens on them like ball groups.
Feel free to leave a comment about other abilities you want me to test.

Conveniently omitted:

DO APPLY:

1. Templar Incantation and morphs
2. Templar Rune (!!!)
3. Dragonknight Green Dragon Blood (!!!)
4. Soul Siphon HOT
5. Warden Trees HOT
6. Barrier HOT
7. Necromancer AOE burst heal HOT
8. Nightblade Dark Cloak (!!!)
9. Arcanist Evolving Runemend
10. Arcanist Tidal Chakram
11. Necromancer Hungry Scythe
12. Necromancer Bitter Harvest and morphs (!!!)
13. Warden Polar Wind (!!!)
14. Warden Nature's Embrace
15. Psijic Meditate and morphs
16. Nightblade Funnel Health
17. Restoration Staff ultimate Panacea and morphs
18. Restoration Staff Healing Ward
19. All Scribing HOTs

SYNERGIES:

1. Warden Harvest
2. Nightblade Hidden Refresh

POTENTIALLY:

1. Burning Embers

PLUS TONS OF SETS

Most of those above are CORE CLASS SKILLS that are now essentially outlawed in PvP formats.

The U49 framework needs to be sent completely back to the lab and something better thought-up to replace it.

The best solutions is limiting sticky HOTs to one copy per morph and disallowing them to stack with themselves.

This does appear to be another case of ZOS trying a fix that doesn't really address the problem and will adversely effect smaller groups.

Why can't they just cap heals as one instance of each HoT on every player at any given time? Otherwise ball groups will just figure out which heals aren't limited and use only those.

I don't see the fix ZOS is proposing as getting the job done. We'll see how it goes though. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. In the end this system is just going to make ball groups stronger compared to the rest of the population I think.

It could be the case they are just unwilling to try capping heal but it could also be the case that the systems to make that happen are just not there and would take more time than this pts to the march 9 launch window will allow to implement

Overamera · January 14

I would also like to know which one counts. Best would be if ZOS would actually tell us which ones.

At first i thought my templar which I play solo with rune, vigor and ritual my heals and I would already get halved. But since it only applies to "sticky" hots ig not since ritual is a aoe hot.

tsaescishoeshiner · January 14

It only reduces "healing taken", which is healing on you by other players (if it's working as they phrased it). So yes, Critical Surge or Rune Focus will count towards the limit of 5, but they themselves wouldn't ever be reduced in healing. Only sticky HoTs sourced from other players would be reduced.

I think they didn't communicate what "healing taken" means well enough—it's not a term that comes up in too many important ways.

J18696 · January 14

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

It only reduces "healing taken", which is healing on you by other players (if it's working as they phrased it). So yes, Critical Surge or Rune Focus will count towards the limit of 5, but they themselves wouldn't ever be reduced in healing. Only sticky HoTs sourced from other players would be reduced.

I think they didn't communicate what "healing taken" means well enough—it's not a term that comes up in too many important ways.

Problem with healing taken is it also buffs your own healing you do to yourself if i had a healing taken buff and a healing done buff they both affect my own healing unless something has recently changed

YandereGirlfriend · January 14

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

It only reduces "healing taken", which is healing on you by other players (if it's working as they phrased it). So yes, Critical Surge or Rune Focus will count towards the limit of 5, but they themselves wouldn't ever be reduced in healing. Only sticky HoTs sourced from other players would be reduced.

I think they didn't communicate what "healing taken" means well enough—it's not a term that comes up in too many important ways.

Healing Taken is ANY healing on YOU. That can be from yourself, others, sets, CP, Companions, etc..

Healing Done is what you are thinking of and that is healing that you generate yourself. But that can be applied both to yourself or others.

The U49 change giga-nukes ALL healing that you receive from ANY source. It's a death sentence.

Radiate77 · January 14

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Are we certain that Blood Craze & Rend are not affected? Can someone test this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuA6n7y2Xpw

looks that way to me.
5437 healing soul with just vigor, 5437 with vigor+ blood craze, 5437 with vigor + blood craze + radiating

Okay thank you, this is a relief.

Radiate77 · January 14

I really don’t think 5 HoTs is a bad number to settle on for 3 months while a better change is on the way, I would just really appreciate if this debuff is VISIBLE on our health bar so we know when we’re getting horribly defiled.

Just make our healthbar blackened like with Pale Order, anything, really.

YandereGirlfriend · January 14

Radiate77 wrote: »

I really don’t think 5 HoTs is a bad number to settle on for 3 months while a better change is on the way, I would just really appreciate if this debuff is VISIBLE on our health bar so we know when we’re getting horribly defiled.

Just make our healthbar blackened like with Pale Order, anything, really.

The list of skills is still super broad and like way out of scope from what people are intending when they call to curtail HOTs.

Like, nobody is talking about Polar Wind or Rune or Deaden Pain being a problem in PvP. But they get vacuumed-up just the same as the actually offending skills, Radiating and yellow Vigor. And if you currently use 2-3 of them on your build, which is pretty common for small-scale and solo players, even at 5 you are perilously close to tripping the proc.

Radiate77 · January 14

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

I really don’t think 5 HoTs is a bad number to settle on for 3 months while a better change is on the way, I would just really appreciate if this debuff is VISIBLE on our health bar so we know when we’re getting horribly defiled.

Just make our healthbar blackened like with Pale Order, anything, really.

The list of skills is still super broad and like way out of scope from what people are intending when they call to curtail HOTs.

Like, nobody is talking about Polar Wind or Rune or Deaden Pain being a problem in PvP. But they get vacuumed-up just the same as the actually offending skills, Radiating and yellow Vigor. And if you currently use 2-3 of them on your build, which is pretty common for small-scale and solo players, even at 5 you are perilously close to tripping the proc.

No of course, that’s why I believe it is imperative that when we do trip it, we have some visual indicator so we can move away from someone pushing us over that threshold.

If they’re following you around to do it intentionally, it will be easier to include in the clip for reporting.