Cyrodiil Healing Nerf!!

xylena · January 14

Is it possible to use this mechanic for a diminishing returns effect? e.g.

33% penalty at 5 hots
66% penalty at 10 hots
99% penalty at 15 hots

xFocused · January 14

Yudo wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Just reduce the amount of times vigor, regen and shields can stack. Simple. There is no need for echoing vigor to stack a million times and there’s no need for overall healing, whether you’re solo or in a group, to be affected depending on a variable outside of your control

Exactly this.
Balls would be forced to "bring" more healing to their comp if cross healing was limited. Literally only a few skills like vigor, radiant, conti or burst. Puts a hard on how much it can scale, forces more healing into comps to survive, without affecting those below the cap. Ball groups will find a way around anyway, but this is a healthier step forward.

Agreed. As it stands, ball groups are able to stack multiple heals, shields and buffs with being able to keep said heals/buffs/shields up constantly. Siege does nothing, even cold fires barely drop their healthbars. This has been an ongoing issue for how long now? Reducing the times these things can stack when you're grouped would be a viable fix, or if you're not going to address the ongoing issue of these comped groups being near unkillable then make a set like Snake in the Stars viable again...there needs to be a counter to these groups like we've been saying and asking them for how long now? When a 12 man can withstand siege and 30-40 players without even taking a single dip in their shields/health, that's a huge issue

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · January 14

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%

We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

So before discussing 33% vs 50%, or 3 vs 5 HoTs, the priority has to be making this strictly group scoped, both for counting toward the trigger and for any replacement or refreshing behavior. If that safeguard is not in place, no amount of tuning makes it safe to ship.

Doing this will mean that groups will just split and run together so you get the full benefit of all HoTs and healing form those outside your group. Not a good solution imo

Teeba_Shei · January 14

xylena wrote: »

Is it possible to use this mechanic for a diminishing returns effect? e.g.

33% penalty at 5 hots
66% penalty at 10 hots
99% penalty at 15 hots

Another terrible solution. Besides for the arbitrary and absurd values you suggest, do you think ball groups wouldn't optimize and build around this? This would still impact normal players while leaving the supposed target left unscathed.

MincMincMinc · January 14

xylena wrote: »

Is it possible to use this mechanic for a diminishing returns effect? e.g.

33% penalty at 5 hots
66% penalty at 10 hots
99% penalty at 15 hots

This is another option, but the worst offenders that are causing us to need the rule put in place are just going to avoid the rule all together while reaping the benefit of the casuals becoming DRASTICALLY weaker.

Not only will it now achieve the primary purpose, but this will only add extra strain on the server so we are going to be better off without it.

Simpler solutions would be for zos to just look at ball groups and what they are stacking. Maybe echoing vigor should only be a 8m radius and only heal 3 other allies at a time?

The group mechanics in the game should be pushed towards longer cooldown systems like ultimates. Coordinating negates is a prime example of good group play design.

Overamera · January 14

I definitely think option 2 is better.

Thank you for the quick response to the community about this matter and the ideas/solutions for now and future.

acastanza_ESO · January 14

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%

We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

I don't think either of those options are acceptable, they have all the same issues that have been discussed ad nauseam, just tuned down a hair. As long as the solution involves HOTs cutting Burst heals, it is an unacceptable solution.
While I do appreciate ZOS at least attempting to finally look at this, this variant just isn't it and should be shelved in its entirety. If this absolutely must be done with this method, which I hope not, combining both the proposed changes could probably create something that would be tolerable, but the healing reduction absolutely only needs to affect HOTs.

I would quite literally prefer only being able to have one single iteration of a given named HOT on you that can only be overwritten by a version with a larger tooltip.

I do have to say, I do very much appreciate ZOS attempting something here to address a widespread longterm player complaint, seeing the backlash, and quickly committing to both revert it and come to the table with additional options, that is fantastic.

I definitely understand that the class reworks are, justifiably, taking up a huge amount of internal bandwidth, but this change, this way, might not be worth it. I'd rather wait and continue to deal with the status quo, than deal with this janky and bad version for an unknown period of time.

Teeba_Shei · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Is it possible to use this mechanic for a diminishing returns effect? e.g.

33% penalty at 5 hots
66% penalty at 10 hots
99% penalty at 15 hots

This is another option, but the worst offenders that are causing us to need the rule put in place are just going to avoid the rule all together while reaping the benefit of the casuals becoming DRASTICALLY weaker.

Not only will it now achieve the primary purpose, but this will only add extra strain on the server so we are going to be better off without it.

Simpler solutions would be for zos to just look at ball groups and what they are stacking. Maybe echoing vigor should only be a 8m radius and only heal 3 other allies at a time?

The group mechanics in the game should be pushed towards longer cooldown systems like ultimates. Coordinating negates is a prime example of good group play design.

Your solution would impact PvE as well. They are trying to implement a solution that doesn't hit other aspects of the game.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · January 14

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%

We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

So before discussing 33% vs 50%, or 3 vs 5 HoTs, the priority has to be making this strictly group scoped, both for counting toward the trigger and for any replacement or refreshing behavior. If that safeguard is not in place, no amount of tuning makes it safe to ship.

Doing this will mean that groups will just split and run together so you get the full benefit of all HoTs and healing form those outside your group. Not a good solution imo

Doing that would cost you so many set slots that it just wouldn’t be worth it. Splitting the group into two or more would be more punishing than simply limiting yourself to two “sticky” HoTs per player and leaning harder on AoE heals and burst heals, which would still be a significant hit to ball groups

JohnG · January 14

I know eso's code is a spaghetti nightmare, but is it really that complicated to just implement a hard cap on hots. You already wrote the code to nerf healing if a player has 3 or more sticky hots on them, it should be a very simple thing to change that code to only allow 3 sticky hots period. I think probably 5 would be a more reasonable number, but either way a hard cap on the number of hots is a far better way to go than to nerf healing when you have too many. A hard cap on the number of hots might also actually do something to help with lag, which your current plan will do nothing for and might even make worse in some cases.

Though on the other hand, if your healing nerf does go live I fully intend to chase people around with a level 1 resto staff and no gear putting as many worthless hots on them as I can just to troll.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 14

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Is it possible to use this mechanic for a diminishing returns effect? e.g.

33% penalty at 5 hots
66% penalty at 10 hots
99% penalty at 15 hots

This is another option, but the worst offenders that are causing us to need the rule put in place are just going to avoid the rule all together while reaping the benefit of the casuals becoming DRASTICALLY weaker.

Not only will it now achieve the primary purpose, but this will only add extra strain on the server so we are going to be better off without it.

Simpler solutions would be for zos to just look at ball groups and what they are stacking. Maybe echoing vigor should only be a 8m radius and only heal 3 other allies at a time?

The group mechanics in the game should be pushed towards longer cooldown systems like ultimates. Coordinating negates is a prime example of good group play design.

Your solution would impact PvE as well. They are trying to implement a solution that doesn't hit other aspects of the game.

Clearly it wouldn't when all of these changes are being discussed in the context of Battle Spirit.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 14

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%

We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

So before discussing 33% vs 50%, or 3 vs 5 HoTs, the priority has to be making this strictly group scoped, both for counting toward the trigger and for any replacement or refreshing behavior. If that safeguard is not in place, no amount of tuning makes it safe to ship.

Doing this will mean that groups will just split and run together so you get the full benefit of all HoTs and healing form those outside your group. Not a good solution imo

Many sets that Ball Groups run specifically buff group members. If they were to split up, they would lose a lot of effectiveness due to now needing to double up on many of the sets they were running.

Ball Groups are all about efficiency. Echoing is run instead of Radiating because it hits more people per cast. Sets are picked very carefully from the list of trial and dungeon sets that provide unnamed buffs to the group. By splitting the group up, all of a sudden they either need to find sets that don't only apply to group members or ensure that bith of the split groups have those sets, taking the place of another valuable set.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · January 14

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%

We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

So before discussing 33% vs 50%, or 3 vs 5 HoTs, the priority has to be making this strictly group scoped, both for counting toward the trigger and for any replacement or refreshing behavior. If that safeguard is not in place, no amount of tuning makes it safe to ship.

Doing this will mean that groups will just split and run together so you get the full benefit of all HoTs and healing form those outside your group. Not a good solution imo

Doing that would cost you so many set slots that it just wouldn’t be worth it. Splitting the group into two or more would be more punishing than simply limiting yourself to two “sticky” HoTs per player and leaning harder on AoE heals and burst heals, which would still be a significant hit to ball groups

There are multiple sets a lot of groups currently double up on as well as sets like SPC and Trans, Alkosh, Bulwark etc which benefit to non-group players. I think the impact of running 2x8m and then cross-heal HoTs would be quite significant and you wouldn't lose much power from shifting the sets onto a few duplicates.

umagon · January 14

Just make a separate stat for healing to scale from. If zos is taking the time to revamp the combat systems once again now is the time to resolve it. Healing output needs to scale from a separate stat. And limit the number of active heals (all types) a person can have in a given second to two in pvp areas. And all this nonsense with over performing heals ends.

gariondavey · January 14

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

Cut HoTs and Shields down to one of each kind, and don't overthink a solution into something that will impact non-BGers potentially every bit as much or (invariably) more than the BGers.

Important to note that shields are already limited to one of a kind, and furthermore, the limit applies to the base skill, meaning that even 2 different morphs of the same shield cannot stack.

Shielding will need a bigger change to nerf it. Large groups rely on 4 primary shields; Contingency, Chakrams, Barrier, and Arcanist's Bubble ultimate. There are other shields that are also large offenders, such as Soul Burst and Wield Soul, but these shields are slightly less efficient and thus not as commonly used.

The best route to nerfing shields is to either 1) reduce each subsequently stacked shield by a percentage, so that each shield you stack is weaker than the last, or 2) cap the total shielding amount of a player to a % of their health, rather than having a cap for each individual shield (as it doesn’t matter that an individual shield caps at 60% of a target's health when 3 can be combined to double or triple someone's healthbar).

For option 2 I could see Ultimate sourced shields being exempt, but given that Barrier is one of the largest offenders in Ball Groups, something needs to give.

Excellent points

Alchimiste1 · January 14

I feel like this is fine tbh.

Can people actually start making all the different sticky hots they get while playing solo/small scale.

Because having played this game for so long primarily as a solo and small group player I really can’t recall having over 5 sticky hots on me at a time, unless we were deliberately building into it.

So I ask that people name all the sticky hots that they would have as a 4 man group.

Thumbless_Bot · January 14

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%

We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I'm getting PTSD from the early Dark Convergence days... They introduce things to counter ballgroups, but, because they don't know how their own game works, the ballgroups end up taking full advantage of those things, and we end up suffering for months, before the devs realize they did something wrong.
Here we go again.

There was less community engagement back then. This time around things seem much more promising. I know they can't make everyone happy, but at least they are doing something good for the game and engaging the players more now before committing to release long changes.

Edit:

Second option is by far preferable. I think 4 or 5 are good numbers for hots, but that is me and based on my experience. This gives flexibility to solo and small groups to accept one or two off heals. It also lets ball.groups have one or two dedicated healers but also prevents abusing the off heal mechanic in organized play.

Artisian0001 · January 14

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%

We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

What is wrong with ZOS and making such huge changes, why are you starting at such a high number. Start at 10-15% and move from there. Again, this is the only game where changes happen at such an extreme value, like the DoT patch that ruined the game for months.

MincMincMinc · January 14

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I feel like this is fine tbh.

Can people actually start making all the different sticky hots they get while playing solo/small scale.

Because having played this game for so long primarily as a solo and small group player I really can’t recall having over 5 sticky hots on me at a time, unless we were deliberately building into it.

So I ask that people name all the sticky hots that they would have as a 4 man group.

It really depends what counts. Do double lifesteal poisons count? What niche random things can randomly force my healing to be cut in half.

lets say each hot in pvp ticks for 1k and we keep adding an additional hot each line

1k
2k
3k
4K
5k
>>cut by 50%
3k
3.5k
4k

Its just a strange concept to have this mechanic that tips you over the deep end when you otherwise should have been better. Not to mention this tipping is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. Any random can run past you with 4 proc sets spamming resto skills thinking they are helping and tank your heals.

It just isnt a solution to the problem. Its a blanket without any idea what the target they are trying to address is. Which we all know is ballgroup gameplay. Funny enough ballgroups probably got forced to rely more on hots because plaguebreak made it much harder to rely on using purge to keep their HP bars consistent. Combine that with zos gutting impen and Boosting crit damage, the hots issue is also a result of the butchered stat system turning the game into a random yoyo feeling with healthbars.

Alchimiste1 · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I feel like this is fine tbh.

Can people actually start making all the different sticky hots they get while playing solo/small scale.

Because having played this game for so long primarily as a solo and small group player I really can’t recall having over 5 sticky hots on me at a time, unless we were deliberately building into it.

So I ask that people name all the sticky hots that they would have as a 4 man group.

It really depends what counts. Do double lifesteal poisons count? What niche random things can randomly force my healing to be cut in half.

lets say each hot in pvp ticks for 1k and we keep adding an additional hot each line

1k
2k
3k
4K
5k
>>cut by 50%
3k
3.5k
4k

Its just a strange concept to have this mechanic that tips you over the deep end when you otherwise should have been better. Not to mention this tipping is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. Any random can run past you with 4 proc sets spamming resto skills thinking they are helping and tank your heals.

It just isnt a solution to the problem. Its a blanket without any idea what the target they are trying to address is. Which we all know is ballgroup gameplay. Funny enough ballgroups probably got forced to rely more on hots because plaguebreak made it much harder to rely on using purge to keep their HP bars consistent. Combine that with zos gutting impen and Boosting crit damage, the hots issue is also a result of the butchered stat system turning the game into a random yoyo feeling with healthbars.

That’s the thing though, I really don’t think there are many sticky hots on me when I play. Now I could be wrong so I’m asking people to name the common ones I might encounter

Thumbless_Bot · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I feel like this is fine tbh.

Can people actually start making all the different sticky hots they get while playing solo/small scale.

Because having played this game for so long primarily as a solo and small group player I really can’t recall having over 5 sticky hots on me at a time, unless we were deliberately building into it.

So I ask that people name all the sticky hots that they would have as a 4 man group.

It really depends what counts. Do double lifesteal poisons count? What niche random things can randomly force my healing to be cut in half.

lets say each hot in pvp ticks for 1k and we keep adding an additional hot each line

1k
2k
3k
4K
5k
>>cut by 50%
3k
3.5k
4k

Its just a strange concept to have this mechanic that tips you over the deep end when you otherwise should have been better. Not to mention this tipping is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. Any random can run past you with 4 proc sets spamming resto skills thinking they are helping and tank your heals.

It just isnt a solution to the problem. Its a blanket without any idea what the target they are trying to address is. Which we all know is ballgroup gameplay. Funny enough ballgroups probably got forced to rely more on hots because plaguebreak made it much harder to rely on using purge to keep their HP bars consistent. Combine that with zos gutting impen and Boosting crit damage, the hots issue is also a result of the butchered stat system turning the game into a random yoyo feeling with healthbars.

Sticky hots count. What is and isnt a sticky hot... I need my decoder ring for that...

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · January 14

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%

We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

So before discussing 33% vs 50%, or 3 vs 5 HoTs, the priority has to be making this strictly group scoped, both for counting toward the trigger and for any replacement or refreshing behavior. If that safeguard is not in place, no amount of tuning makes it safe to ship.

Doing this will mean that groups will just split and run together so you get the full benefit of all HoTs and healing form those outside your group. Not a good solution imo

Doing that would cost you so many set slots that it just wouldn’t be worth it. Splitting the group into two or more would be more punishing than simply limiting yourself to two “sticky” HoTs per player and leaning harder on AoE heals and burst heals, which would still be a significant hit to ball groups

There are multiple sets a lot of groups currently double up on as well as sets like SPC and Trans, Alkosh, Bulwark etc which benefit to non-group players. I think the impact of running 2x8m and then cross-heal HoTs would be quite significant and you wouldn't lose much power from shifting the sets onto a few duplicates.

I don’t think splitting the group would be optimal. Splitting just to gain two more HoTs per player means giving up weapon damage, recovery convergence, and a bunch of other key sets and buffs, and that tradeoff is not worth it compared to simply running fewer sticky HoTs and leaning more on AoE heals and burst heals.

But putting the optimization argument aside, the bigger point is this.

Out of group healing cannot, and should not, be able to debuff you, both for the sake of casual healing, and for the overall health of the game. If heals from outside your group can count toward the trigger, then nothing stops someone from following you on a high HP tank and applying two or three low value HoTs that tick for almost nothing, while still pushing them over the threshold and giving them a massive healing taken penalty. That is just griefing, and it is simply unacceptable, and almost impossible to prove since the player can simply claim they were "trying to heal the player or the group".

Radiate77 · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I feel like this is fine tbh.

Can people actually start making all the different sticky hots they get while playing solo/small scale.

Because having played this game for so long primarily as a solo and small group player I really can’t recall having over 5 sticky hots on me at a time, unless we were deliberately building into it.

So I ask that people name all the sticky hots that they would have as a 4 man group.

It really depends what counts. Do double lifesteal poisons count? What niche random things can randomly force my healing to be cut in half.

This is a great point, I would appreciate an adjustable list of all things that count towards this value.

For something like this to work, we need to be sure silly things like double lifesteal poisons won’t be committing suicide.

ZOS_GregoryV · January 14

Greetings all,

After some review, and having to remove 2 pages worth of comments, we feel it important to remind all members of the community that when posting, please be sure to keep the Community Rules in mind.
We also ask that all comments be kept civil, constructive, and stick to the subject of the initial thread, and avoid derailing the conversation.

Regards,
-Greg-

Artisian0001 · January 14

It's just so odd to read the proposed change and see that of the countless suggestions they are all ignored. 33% is still an insane number for small groups, whereas 5 HoTs might increase the group limit by a single person not affected by this change. On top of the fact that large groups can still spam shields and not be affected. It's so strange that of all the things suggested, this is the updated proposal, it doesn't appease anyone except those that don't understand how the game works.

Large groups can still avoid this with shield stacking, ground hots, etc.
Smaller groups are still heavily affected when echoing was huge in smaller groups.

There are an endless amount of other options. Start it at a group size of 8, and scale it up based on group size.Ex:
5% at 8
10% at 9
15% at 10
20% at 11
25% at 12

These numbers are still huge but they punish only the bigger groups. You can even start it at 6 and have it ramp up by 4% or something.

A lot of people come to another conclusion of allowing only 1 unique HoT in a group and that's great and all but the skill gets completely gutted at the same time. If you want to make it so only 1 of these can be cast in a huge group you would have to change the skill.

Additionally you can do a ramping reduction in healing based on the number of HoTs on a person, this, sadly, can be avoided as well by doing what was previously mentioned.

Regardless, starting at 33% is still too much. If you want people to be happy without upsetting those that actively play in 12 man groups, or multiple 12 man groups, or those in smaller groups, start the number lower and progressively adjust it based on feedback. All players should be okay with a 10% decrease. Changing this to a 15%, then a 20% if needed, can be done within seconds during regular maintenance. Large changes never happen like this in other games and it just reminds me of the period of DoT changes that ruined the game for months.

ToddIngram · January 14

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%

We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

I don't think either of those options are acceptable, they have all the same issues that have been discussed ad nauseam, just tuned down a hair. As long as the solution involves HOTs cutting Burst heals, it is an unacceptable solution.
While I do appreciate ZOS at least attempting to finally look at this, this variant just isn't it and should be shelved in its entirety. If this absolutely must be done with this method, which I hope not, combining both the proposed changes could probably create something that would be tolerable, but the healing reduction absolutely only needs to affect HOTs.

I would quite literally prefer only being able to have one single iteration of a given named HOT on you that can only be overwritten by a version with a larger tooltip.

I do have to say, I do very much appreciate ZOS attempting something here to address a widespread longterm player complaint, seeing the backlash, and quickly committing to both revert it and come to the table with additional options, that is fantastic.

I definitely understand that the class reworks are, justifiably, taking up a huge amount of internal bandwidth, but this change, this way, might not be worth it. I'd rather wait and continue to deal with the status quo, than deal with this janky and bad version for an unknown period of time.

I feel the same. In order to keep the system fair, it has to apply equally to everyone, grouped or not. Limiting to just one instance of any given HoT ever being active at any given time is the fairest. Ball groups will be able to capitalize on this system more than a solo player, but each player in the group won't have more healing ability than the solo player that way.

So ball groups will still get an advantage to being grouped, but their healing will be limited in the same way the solo player is limited. Their only advantage the ball group player will have is that they'll have coordinated heals. So still a benefit to grouping, it's just far less of a benefit.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

YandereGirlfriend · January 14

Here are some hard facts for this misguided change:

The following skills APPLY THE DEBUFF:

1. Templar Incantation and morphs
2. Templar Rune and morphs (!!!)
3. Dragonknight Green Dragon Blood (!!!)
4. Soul Siphon HOT
5. Warden Trees HOT
6. Barrier HOT
7. Necromancer AOE burst heal HOT
8. Nightblade Dark Cloak (!!!)
9. Arcanist Evolving Runemend
10. Arcanist Tidal Chakram
11. Necromancer Hungry Scythe
12. Necromancer Bitter Harvest and morphs (!!!)
13. Warden Polar Wind (!!!)
14. Warden Nature's Embrace
15. Psijic Meditate and morphs
16. Nightblade Funnel Health
17. Restoration Staff ultimate Panacea and morphs
18. Restoration Staff Healing Ward
19. Restoration Staff Regeneration and morphs
20. Alliance Vigor and morphs
21. Dragonknight Cauterize (!!!)
22. All Scribing HOTs

Plus the synergies:

1. Warden Harvest
2. Nightblade Hidden Refresh

And tons of sets.

This is a FAR more expansive list than I would imagine that most were previously believing.

The outlawed skills list extends way beyond Echoing Vigor and Radiating Regen, the two skills that folk are typically talking about when they complain about sticky HOT-stacking. Nearly every current PvP build uses one or highly likely more of the above skills.

Things like Warden Trees, Soul Siphon, and Incantation are among the most common ultimates for ungrouped zone healers to use in order to help their allies. If zone healers are out there in Cyrodiil applying Echoing Vigor, Radiating Regen, and using one of those ultimates... that is nearly guaranteed to get their allies killed.

Which is hopefully yet more evidence that the current approach is fatally flawed and should never see the Live server. Most players do not read patch notes and will be getting their allies killed continuously through no fault of their own. The acrimony in the zone chats will be insane and unfairly directed toward zone healers.

What to do? Solve the actual problem! Eliminate sticky HOT stacking by limiting it to one copy per morph. The solution is staring us all directly in the face. We don't need or want any of these U49 options.

@ZOS_Kevin

Lagzee · January 14

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the continued feedback provided in this thread. We recognize that many of you would still like to see this issue addressed – we do too! – and reverting this change doesn’t mean we are shelving it. Again, this first try was exactly that – it was a first try and just didn’t land. This is all part of development being a bit more fluid moving forward and allowing us the space to iterate and try different things.

We do still plan to revert this change which you’ll see in next week’s PTS patch, but in the spirit of iteration and talking through options, here are a couple options (it would need to be one or the other) we may be able to explore for Update 49:
We could reduce the 50% modifier to a lower value, such as 33%

We could increase the number of HoTs it takes to trigger the modifier, maybe to 5

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but realistically, many require time-consuming code changes and bandwidth is currently very tight with everything else the team is working on. Also keep in mind any options we lay out for Update 49 don’t and won’t prevent us from considering a longer-term option later. We are definitely open to discussing a short-term solution, though, and are interested to hear what you think of the two options presented above.

I think you should just put it through at 50% and see how it goes, and either adjust it after, or remove it. Maybe increase the amount to 4. I dont see why its an issue if you guys are willing to make adjustments. And If you have to lower the value then so be it but i think its a mistake without letting it go live first. The pts is not a place where you can see how these changes will pan out it large scale combat, or with ball groups. We need it to go live into cyrodiil and see how it goes.

Also, could you elaborate on this? Is it not possible to just use battle spirit in the same way with HoTs (and maybe shields), as it is with a flat % nerf? Like making battle spirit replace, or refresh, the same morphs of HoT/shield skill effects on players. To me they sound similar, but i could be wrong im not a developer.

I just cannot stress enough that we really need something to happen. Yes, many of us think the best path forward is to stop heal/shield stacking as it currently is, with the same abilities stacking on top of each other. But if thats really something that you guys wont do with battle spirit, and something that has to come in a future update, then please at least try something for the time being. As ive said, the worst case scenario is to do nothing.

Varana · January 14

At this point, to be honest, I'd rather prefer the idea to be sent back to the workshop.

The issue this tries to address has been a problem for a long time. I don't understand why there is suddenly such an urgency that a half-baked non-solution is pushed through.

People have noticed that this is actually being worked on, instead of being totally ignored like it was for years. The solution didn't hit and doing it properly needs more time. Fine, so be it.
Better to implement a better solution later this year (being optimistic, hehe) than doing something now that doesn't solve the issue and hurts the wrong targets instead.

Teeba_Shei · January 14

Artisian0001 wrote: »

It's just so odd to read the proposed change and see that of the countless suggestions they are all ignored. 33% is still an insane number for small groups, whereas 5 HoTs might increase the group limit by a single person not affected by this change. On top of the fact that large groups can still spam shields and not be affected. It's so strange that of all the things suggested, this is the updated proposal, it doesn't appease anyone except those that don't understand how the game works.

Large groups can still avoid this with shield stacking, ground hots, etc.
Smaller groups are still heavily affected when echoing was huge in smaller groups.

There are an endless amount of other options. Start it at a group size of 8, and scale it up based on group size.Ex:
5% at 8
10% at 9
15% at 10
20% at 11
25% at 12

These numbers are still huge but they punish only the bigger groups. You can even start it at 6 and have it ramp up by 4% or something.

A lot of people come to another conclusion of allowing only 1 unique HoT in a group and that's great and all but the skill gets completely gutted at the same time. If you want to make it so only 1 of these can be cast in a huge group you would have to change the skill.

Additionally you can do a ramping reduction in healing based on the number of HoTs on a person, this, sadly, can be avoided as well by doing what was previously mentioned.

Regardless, starting at 33% is still too much. If you want people to be happy without upsetting those that actively play in 12 man groups, or multiple 12 man groups, or those in smaller groups, start the number lower and progressively adjust it based on feedback. All players should be okay with a 10% decrease. Changing this to a 15%, then a 20% if needed, can be done within seconds during regular maintenance. Large changes never happen like this in other games and it just reminds me of the period of DoT changes that ruined the game for months.

This actually makes way more sense. The goal is to target large groups, like 12 mans, and not touch small scale groups. The current ideas on the table target cast way too large a net and are likely to disrupt people that aren't the target for this nerf.