Imperial City - Risk vs Reward Proposal

coop500 · January 12

(Top part is a bit of rant, feel free to skip to under the line for the actual proposal)

Now that the only way to actually escape being bullied out of your hard work of Telvar has been removed, can we address the fact that the Risk vs Reward aspect of the area is, while interesting on paper, totally garbage in practice?

The only ones taking the risk are people farming Telvar from mobs, generating stuff to even BE taken by PvPers. The ability to queue gave us a (DELAYED) way to escape, because killing our attacker does nothing.

Most of the time they're carrying nothing, because why risk attacking someone who might take half of your stones if you have anything worth losing?
And most of the time, after killing them, they get to respawn 15 seconds away from you and are right back in your face before you even fully recovered.

I purpose a way to balance this for everyone, and yes people are gonna think this is stupid as hell and it's a PvP zone and yada yada, don't really care, I'm saying it anyway.

ZOS, PLEASE consider adding a limit to the amount of telvar taken, equal to what the killer is actually carrying. This would create TRUE Risk vs Reward, you want to steal people's work? Then you have to risk some stones yourself in case you lose. There's literally no reason why it isn't already this way, it doesn't make it unfair to anyone, and it just evens the playing field. People still are at risk of losing their work, but this means EVERYONE is, not just one side, while the other side just gets to bully and farm. If the actual care is true Risk vs Reward, as the zone is meant to be.

Major_Mangle · January 12

People get the entire "risk vs reward" debate about IC and telvar wrong every single time. The risk/reward has never been aimed that it should be equal between "farmers" and "hunters" (or whatever you wanna call it). The risk/reward is about the fact that telvar is valuable and if you can get away with it, you´re heavily rewarded. The risk is that others obviously will hunt the "farmers".

The entire "you can´t steal more than you´ve" only benefits the people who farm, because then you can run around with millions of telvar because it´s incredibly unlikely anyone else will run around with the same amount (essentially removing the risk). People who suggest these kinda things are telvar farmers who doesn´t wanna PvP. Time to learn how to defend your telvar. Some of the best changes ZOS have made since IC was introduced.

MincMincMinc · January 12

IMO they should remove IC and reuse it in a rotation concept.

I think they should use this new night market gamemode to host temporary pvevp gamemodes. Like a temporary campaign on rotation where you can sign up for a faction. Then go farm pve for your faction's points. Or opt in to pvp to double your points.

Then zos can intertwine pve and pvp players again and keep the content fresh by rotating out the zones every month or so. Nightmarket, Imperial city, etc, etc.

xylena · January 12

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The entire "you can´t steal more than you´ve" only benefits the people who farm, because then you can run around with millions of telvar

Still better than rewarding players who carry 0 stones.

coop500 · January 12

xylena wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The entire "you can´t steal more than you´ve" only benefits the people who farm, because then you can run around with millions of telvar

Still better than rewarding players who carry 0 stones.

Yes, which is the point of my post and this thing happens way more often than people on the forums like to believe it does.

Cooperharley · January 12

I'd love for them to re-work the way IC works entirely to make it lively again. I haven't played it seriously since within a few years of it coming out. I don't mean re-work it to a PvE-only area, but they need to do something to make it poppin'. I liked the introduction of the roaming bosses a lot - that was dope. Don't know what it'll take though.

gariondavey · January 12

@React had an amazing rework for ic written up somewhere on here

Markytous · January 13

If you don't like the concept of losing Tel Var Stones, the Imperial City is not for you. The change presented is amazing. They should have not even included a 100 Tel Var leeway. It should have been strictly no queueing out of the server. The Imperial City was designed for those with the confidence and know-how to survive PVP and PVE challenges (either through proficient gameplay or group play). If this philosophy doesn't click with you, there are other places you can play. Its this simple.

SummersetCitizen · January 13

My only concern is that this will amp up ganking at alliance sewer entry doors.

That aspect of PVP gameplay is what PVE players despise the most I think.

If this keeps more players out of the zone, it will be counterproductive. The PVP community is thin and I think they need fresh faces to stick around and stay active.

Perhaps make this strict rule for CP campaign only? Not sure, just trying to offer ideas.

coop500 · January 13

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

My only concern is that this will amp up ganking at alliance sewer entry doors.

That aspect of PVP gameplay is what PVE players despise the most I think.

If this keeps more players out of the zone, it will be counterproductive. The PVP community is thin and I think they need fresh faces to stick around and stay active.

Perhaps make this strict rule for CP campaign only? Not sure, just trying to offer ideas.

Place is gonna become a ghost down after the queue change anyway. It was already slim, but people are not gonna deal with being griefed over and over again.

Markytous · January 13

coop500 wrote: »

ZOS, PLEASE consider adding a limit to the amount of telvar taken, equal to what the killer is actually carrying. This would create TRUE Risk vs Reward, you want to steal people's work? Then you have to risk some stones yourself in case you lose. There's literally no reason why it isn't already this way, it doesn't make it unfair to anyone, and it just evens the playing field. People still are at risk of losing their work, but this means EVERYONE is, not just one side, while the other side just gets to bully and farm. If the actual care is true Risk vs Reward, as the zone is meant to be.

Engaging in PVP in a PVP content/game mode isn't bullying/trolling. It's playing the game as intended. The issue with the Imperial City is strictly that people use Queueing out of the IC server to "escape" combat encounters to safely gather hundreds of thousands of Tel Var Stones without engaging with the PVP side of the PvPvE design of the Imperial City. Players who will no longer desire to play the Imperial City once this change is released were not playing it before the Imperial City was separated from Cyrodiil anyways and the population before this was great. Allow people who enjoy their PvPvE ghost-town enjoy it. The content is finally going to function as it already did before as intended. This is simply a revert.

MJallday · January 13

coop500 wrote: »

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

My only concern is that this will amp up ganking at alliance sewer entry doors.

That aspect of PVP gameplay is what PVE players despise the most I think.

If this keeps more players out of the zone, it will be counterproductive. The PVP community is thin and I think they need fresh faces to stick around and stay active.

Perhaps make this strict rule for CP campaign only? Not sure, just trying to offer ideas.

Place is gonna become a ghost down after the queue change anyway. It was already slim, but people are not gonna deal with being griefed over and over again.

yep - this is a terrible change. needs to be taken out. it will kill IC

CameraBeardThePirate · January 13

You aren't getting bullied out of TelVar; you're getting killed in a PvP zone.

The "risk vs reward" of IC is that the more you farm TelVar, the faster you gain it. The more you have, the more you lose if you die. You risk losing your TelVar for the reward of larger gains.

Something that many people aren't understanding with this change is that the amount of gankers will go down with this change. IC was a ganker haven because gankers didn't have to risk anything before. They drop in on a group while holding 0 TelVar, try over and over to kill the lowest health player, and when they finally do, they queue out to Cyrodiil so that they don't have to risk the TelVar they just earned.

With this change, gankers will no longer have risk free ganks on groups. If they successfully gank someone in a group, they actually have to escape now. You will see fewer gankers attacking people in a group now.

If you don't want to lose your TelVar, group up. Safety in numbers will be stronger than ever before with this change.

The people trying to argue that the queue exploit was good for IC forget that the entire point of IC is that you are not supposed to be able to easily escape.

Blood_again · January 13

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

With this change, gankers will no longer have risk free ganks on groups. If they successfully gank someone in a group, they actually have to escape now. You will see fewer gankers attacking people in a group now.

If you don't want to lose your TelVar, group up. Safety in numbers will be stronger than ever before with this change.

It will work in different way.
1. Go gank or bomb having 0 tv
2. Got let's say 7000 tv and keep trying.
3. Die, bank 3500 tv at the base. Repeat.
4. PROFIT

Death taxi saves time for gankers as much as for IC-questers

coop500 · January 13

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You aren't getting bullied out of TelVar; you're getting killed in a PvP zone.

The "risk vs reward" of IC is that the more you farm TelVar, the faster you gain it. The more you have, the more you lose if you die. You risk losing your TelVar for the reward of larger gains.

Something that many people aren't understanding with this change is that the amount of gankers will go down with this change. IC was a ganker haven because gankers didn't have to risk anything before. They drop in on a group while holding 0 TelVar, try over and over to kill the lowest health player, and when they finally do, they queue out to Cyrodiil so that they don't have to risk the TelVar they just earned.

With this change, gankers will no longer have risk free ganks on groups. If they successfully gank someone in a group, they actually have to escape now. You will see fewer gankers attacking people in a group now.

If you don't want to lose your TelVar, group up. Safety in numbers will be stronger than ever before with this change.

The people trying to argue that the queue exploit was good for IC forget that the entire point of IC is that you are not supposed to be able to easily escape.

Then make the risk equal. Make gankers have to carry telvar too to even steal.

Major_Mangle · January 13

coop500 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You aren't getting bullied out of TelVar; you're getting killed in a PvP zone.

The "risk vs reward" of IC is that the more you farm TelVar, the faster you gain it. The more you have, the more you lose if you die. You risk losing your TelVar for the reward of larger gains.

Something that many people aren't understanding with this change is that the amount of gankers will go down with this change. IC was a ganker haven because gankers didn't have to risk anything before. They drop in on a group while holding 0 TelVar, try over and over to kill the lowest health player, and when they finally do, they queue out to Cyrodiil so that they don't have to risk the TelVar they just earned.

With this change, gankers will no longer have risk free ganks on groups. If they successfully gank someone in a group, they actually have to escape now. You will see fewer gankers attacking people in a group now.

If you don't want to lose your TelVar, group up. Safety in numbers will be stronger than ever before with this change.

The people trying to argue that the queue exploit was good for IC forget that the entire point of IC is that you are not supposed to be able to easily escape.

Then make the risk equal. Make gankers have to carry telvar too to even steal.

The moment you make it "equal" you remove the risk for the players who mainly focus on farming telvar (which is what the people who oppose the change wants), essentially undermining the entire point of the system with telvar.

NuclearPath · January 13

coop500 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You aren't getting bullied out of TelVar; you're getting killed in a PvP zone.

The "risk vs reward" of IC is that the more you farm TelVar, the faster you gain it. The more you have, the more you lose if you die. You risk losing your TelVar for the reward of larger gains.

Something that many people aren't understanding with this change is that the amount of gankers will go down with this change. IC was a ganker haven because gankers didn't have to risk anything before. They drop in on a group while holding 0 TelVar, try over and over to kill the lowest health player, and when they finally do, they queue out to Cyrodiil so that they don't have to risk the TelVar they just earned.

With this change, gankers will no longer have risk free ganks on groups. If they successfully gank someone in a group, they actually have to escape now. You will see fewer gankers attacking people in a group now.

If you don't want to lose your TelVar, group up. Safety in numbers will be stronger than ever before with this change.

The people trying to argue that the queue exploit was good for IC forget that the entire point of IC is that you are not supposed to be able to easily escape.

Then make the risk equal. Make gankers have to carry telvar too to even steal.

If you don't want your telvar stolen, kill the other player. Yeah you may not get anything from them, but you get to keep your telvar. The zone is PvP for a reason. If you don't want to engage in PvP, don't bother going into the zone.

SummersetCitizen · January 13

I agree with what people supporting this change are saying.

That being said, I also think it will have a negative effect on the number of players choosing to enter the zone.

It’s a difficult decision I think. They cannot please both parties and it’s been the way it is now for quite some time.

LunaFlora · January 13

with Event Tickets getting replaced by Trade Bars and there being no limit,
there is less of a need to go to imperial city during Mayhem after update 49.

Combined with the queue change will likely equal fewer people in ic overall. the zone is already quite empty, no idea if this is better or not.

i already dislike the zone and mostly only went there during Mayhem or to get Furniture/Collectibles.
i could imagine this zone being fun if we ever get a PvE campaign, with a new story set after the base game like Solstice.

heimdall14_9 · January 13

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

I agree with what people supporting this change are saying.

That being said, I also think it will have a negative effect on the number of players choosing to enter the zone.

It’s a difficult decision I think. They cannot please both parties and it’s been the way it is now for quite some time.

TBH this change is showing just how toxic the game is over telvar , PLAYERS SHOULD NEVER BEEN ABLE TO FREELY KILL THEN LEAVE OUT , but since you could players mis-used it and im happy this is getting FIXED , wont see 5 players attacking 1 for their telvar now because them 5 cant TP right out like cowards after jumping you 5v1 they have to MAKE IT BACK TO BASE giving the 1 an chance to fine them an get back some if not all telvar they was JUMPED for

Ishtarknows · January 13

Whatever they decide it has to cover being knocked under the map by a sewer boss with no way to damage the boss, get out of combat or even die.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 13

Blood_again wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

With this change, gankers will no longer have risk free ganks on groups. If they successfully gank someone in a group, they actually have to escape now. You will see fewer gankers attacking people in a group now.

If you don't want to lose your TelVar, group up. Safety in numbers will be stronger than ever before with this change.

It will work in different way.
1. Go gank or bomb having 0 tv
2. Got let's say 7000 tv and keep trying.
3. Die, bank 3500 tv at the base. Repeat.
4. PROFIT

Death taxi saves time for gankers as much as for IC-questers

Gankers ganking people for TelVar will not opt to kill someone in a group and risk losing half their earnings. They will keep looking for a solo player instead.

Blood_again · January 14

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

With this change, gankers will no longer have risk free ganks on groups. If they successfully gank someone in a group, they actually have to escape now. You will see fewer gankers attacking people in a group now.

If you don't want to lose your TelVar, group up. Safety in numbers will be stronger than ever before with this change.

It will work in different way.
1. Go gank or bomb having 0 tv
2. Got let's say 7000 tv and keep trying.
3. Die, bank 3500 tv at the base. Repeat.
4. PROFIT

Death taxi saves time for gankers as much as for IC-questers

Gankers ganking people for TelVar will not opt to kill someone in a group and risk losing half their earnings. They will keep looking for a solo player instead.

Sweet dreams.
If I'm a ganker, I will attack more aggressively after the patch. Because the death taxi from a group I attacked or from a bad company near my base ends with the same -50% tv.
The only differences are:
- the time I would spend to reach the base
- a surprise effect, that's on my side in the distict, but against me near the base.

Really, why should I try to be careful, gank only solo players and go to base to be ganked?
I will try to get that 20k hp boy from a rich farming group. Yes, I'll res on base with my half. In a minute I will gank somebody else.
I'll make as many suicidal attacks as I can per minute while I have a chance to kill somebody a second before I die.

This suicidal tactic is simply more profitable per time. And I always will be in plus, because every time I start with 0 tv from my base. My risk is 0 with current telvar loot system.

OP's offer, if implemented, would force me to be way more careful, though.

coop500 · January 14

Blood_again wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

With this change, gankers will no longer have risk free ganks on groups. If they successfully gank someone in a group, they actually have to escape now. You will see fewer gankers attacking people in a group now.

If you don't want to lose your TelVar, group up. Safety in numbers will be stronger than ever before with this change.

It will work in different way.
1. Go gank or bomb having 0 tv
2. Got let's say 7000 tv and keep trying.
3. Die, bank 3500 tv at the base. Repeat.
4. PROFIT

Death taxi saves time for gankers as much as for IC-questers

Gankers ganking people for TelVar will not opt to kill someone in a group and risk losing half their earnings. They will keep looking for a solo player instead.

Sweet dreams.
If I'm a ganker, I will attack more aggressively after the patch. Because the death taxi from a group I attacked or from a bad company near my base ends with the same -50% tv.
The only differences are:
- the time I would spend to reach the base
- a surprise effect, that's on my side in the distict, but against me near the base.

Really, why should I try to be careful, gank only solo players and go to base to be ganked?
I will try to get that 20k hp boy from a rich farming group. Yes, I'll res on base with my half. In a minute I will gank somebody else.
I'll make as many suicidal attacks as I can per minute while I have a chance to kill somebody a second before I die.

This suicidal tactic is simply more profitable per time. And I always will be in plus, because every time I start with 0 tv from my base. My risk is 0 with current telvar loot system.

OP's offer, if implemented, would force me to be way more careful, though.

Wish I could pin this post as a perfect example of why I suggest what I'm suggesting.

No shade towards you, Blood-Again, this is simply HOW it's designed and that's why I am advocating for it to be fair. Everyone should be taking a risk, everyone should have a reason to be careful.

MJallday · January 14

theres gank builds that will basically kill you in < 0.5 seconds - even with 34k resistance and 60% block mit - so all this move will do is keep people out of IC (and into the sewers in their zones) - IC will be dead.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 14

Blood_again wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

With this change, gankers will no longer have risk free ganks on groups. If they successfully gank someone in a group, they actually have to escape now. You will see fewer gankers attacking people in a group now.

If you don't want to lose your TelVar, group up. Safety in numbers will be stronger than ever before with this change.

It will work in different way.
1. Go gank or bomb having 0 tv
2. Got let's say 7000 tv and keep trying.
3. Die, bank 3500 tv at the base. Repeat.
4. PROFIT

Death taxi saves time for gankers as much as for IC-questers

Gankers ganking people for TelVar will not opt to kill someone in a group and risk losing half their earnings. They will keep looking for a solo player instead.

Sweet dreams.
If I'm a ganker, I will attack more aggressively after the patch. Because the death taxi from a group I attacked or from a bad company near my base ends with the same -50% tv.
The only differences are:
- the time I would spend to reach the base
- a surprise effect, that's on my side in the distict, but against me near the base.

Really, why should I try to be careful, gank only solo players and go to base to be ganked?
I will try to get that 20k hp boy from a rich farming group. Yes, I'll res on base with my half. In a minute I will gank somebody else.
I'll make as many suicidal attacks as I can per minute while I have a chance to kill somebody a second before I die.

This suicidal tactic is simply more profitable per time. And I always will be in plus, because every time I start with 0 tv from my base. My risk is 0 with current telvar loot system.

OP's offer, if implemented, would force me to be way more careful, though.

What?

The options aren't "die to the group you gank" or "die to the ganker in the sewers".

You are aware that there are sigils of imperial retreat, right?

Gankers are going to look for solo players, kill them to take their Tel Var, then port back to base with a Sigil of Imperial Retreat.

I swear it's like the people in this thread don't understand that ZOS has an item in this game that allows you to port back to your base. The caveat is that you have a long cast time on it.

Gankers are not going to risk losing half their haul when there is an option to get everything back to their base. Gank a solo player, and now you're safe to use a sigil to port back.

Vulkunne · January 14

Seasoned ganker, rogue, malcontent, troublemaker and occasional farmer here. So, let's think about this in a more pragmatic format.

Really, the new policy should be, no one queues out of Imperial City while in combat. Otherwise, there's no real reason to hold people there. Although, it would be more interesting for IC Sewer groups to have to run back once again instead of just leaving but still I get it.

Why are they adding this policy?

Well, I can't speak for them. However, I know that from experience, you have lots of players just porting out at the first sign of a PvP engagement. In other words, IC is a PvP zone but in many instances, people just leave when PvP actually begins. Tsk tsk tsk. For better or worse, that's not how this works.

Many have asked for a non-PvP IC

Then the Tel Vars and everything else in there will become worthless overnight.

It won't be worth playing. You'll be all alone and having no risk and no reward.

Incoming complaints about this loophole finally getting patched (after years)

When I goto IC, which to be honest, I really don't have as much time to visit IC (nowhere near as much as I used to), but you need to have a plan. You need to pack a lunch and sit down around a kitchen table and think about your options, think about your build, try to get creative and stay one step ahead of umm people like me.

Which it can be done. There are lots of builds out there and advice from others who know what's up.

The price for being lazy and doing stupid things in IC is about to be at an all-time high. Might want to prepare yourselves and stop looking for a way out of everything. Just learn to deal with it instead of trying to queue away at the first sign of trouble. Pay attention to what you're doing, your surroundings and your goals. Get organized. If you don't know who you're grouping with or some random person wants to group with you, that's probably a bad sign. But what do I know, because I never group in IC for this very reason. I've had guilds do really mean-spirited things like drop me from the group in the middle of the sewers for example.

The bottom line is you can't completely rely on anyone in IC and are going to have to start thinking and paying attention. Don't run around with more Tel Vars than your afraid to lose. You know, there are stories I could tell about fortune and loss from IC but most of it boils down to not being greedy and not doing anything without having a plan, but follow it too.

Freelancer_ESO · January 14

I'd say that the change runs into issues on the low reward end.

Look, if someones is earning boatloads of Tel Var it's going to be cost effective for them to spend the 10,000 AP on Sigil of Retreat or on the time to run back.

If someone doesn't have much Tel Var it simply isn't worth the trouble of spending the AP on the Sigil or doing the walk back.

Further, grinding Tel Var in the Sewers was a lower risk method of farming with less of a reward. But, if you raise the incentives for people to camp the end points the risk goes up a fair bit.

It might be beneficial to consider reducing the cost of the Sigil of Retreat and having the amount of Sigils consumed when you recall be based on the amount of Tel Var you have.

Avran_Sylt · January 14

coop500 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

You aren't getting bullied out of TelVar; you're getting killed in a PvP zone.

The "risk vs reward" of IC is that the more you farm TelVar, the faster you gain it. The more you have, the more you lose if you die. You risk losing your TelVar for the reward of larger gains.

Something that many people aren't understanding with this change is that the amount of gankers will go down with this change. IC was a ganker haven because gankers didn't have to risk anything before. They drop in on a group while holding 0 TelVar, try over and over to kill the lowest health player, and when they finally do, they queue out to Cyrodiil so that they don't have to risk the TelVar they just earned.

With this change, gankers will no longer have risk free ganks on groups. If they successfully gank someone in a group, they actually have to escape now. You will see fewer gankers attacking people in a group now.

If you don't want to lose your TelVar, group up. Safety in numbers will be stronger than ever before with this change.

The people trying to argue that the queue exploit was good for IC forget that the entire point of IC is that you are not supposed to be able to easily escape.

Then make the risk equal. Make gankers have to carry telvar too to even steal.

Same with groups. If I get dumpstered because there were two people fighting me I don't want to lose that Tel Var because they decided to fight unfairly, their combined Tel Var should be double mine before I lose any to them. (and if three, triple, etc.)

Blood_again · January 15

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Then make the risk equal. Make gankers have to carry telvar too to even steal.

Same with groups. If I get dumpstered because there were two people fighting me I don't want to lose that Tel Var because they decided to fight unfairly, their combined Tel Var should be double mine before I lose any to them. (and if three, triple, etc.)

Bombers would be eager to hear what you suggest for a 1v10 encounter, yes, yes

Actually your idea would push players to play solo, which is the wrong way.
Playing in a group and coordinating with your group is currently a good tactic, and it should stay a good tactic.
Don't get me wrong, grouping as it is doesn't guarantee you any safety, whatever the players told us above. Grouping just raises your chances to stay alive and do the job. It is good for IC.

Please don't try to turn PvP in IC into the same thing as a boss fight, when players curse any unwanted ally.
If your idea were implemented, it would.

I would simply change the fixed 50% fine for death to a variable one, depending on the player's multiplier.
Like, if the attacker had 4x multiplier, they get 60% if won. If it is 2x - 20%. Something like that.
Maybe it should be affected by a ratio between the multipliers of both players.
1. this will really make an attacker risk more and have way more tv if they wanna get more.
2. Also the attacker will miss more % of their own telvars, being killed by a rich 4x farmer they ambushed. Risk-vs-reward, yep.
3. tv farmer can't be calm about his guaranteed budget anymore. "I'll always have my 50%" won't work, because you don't know who you'll encounter. It is a motivation to fight for your life
4. tv farmers won't have some safe threshold, after which they miss just a fixed amount and they won't bother. That point against the plain limit was the reasonable one in the topic.

Cons: multiplayer fights might turn it into a hellish amount of math, really. Well, I would trust in devs in this moment.

s3dulo · January 15

MJallday wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

My only concern is that this will amp up ganking at alliance sewer entry doors.

That aspect of PVP gameplay is what PVE players despise the most I think.

If this keeps more players out of the zone, it will be counterproductive. The PVP community is thin and I think they need fresh faces to stick around and stay active.

Perhaps make this strict rule for CP campaign only? Not sure, just trying to offer ideas.

Place is gonna become a ghost down after the queue change anyway. It was already slim, but people are not gonna deal with being griefed over and over again.

yep - this is a terrible change. needs to be taken out. it will kill IC

Agreed. I go to IC a lot. I can handle myself in PVP just fine. I also have plenty of TV saved for my own purposes but the added inconvenience is enough to make me no longer go. I doubt this is what ZOS wants, to kill an already dying zone, but that's the only result I can see happening.

Any changes made to IC at this point need to be ones that encourage people to spend time there, not deter them.