Official Discussion Thread for "Leaping into the Dragonknight Class Refresh"

Personofsecrets · January 12

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I think what the class refresh will come down to is just people needing to adapt to no longer being able to stack 3 pure DPS lines or 3 pure tank lines or 3 pure heal/support lines to essentially build the ultimate/perfect build for each role and have to look into picking lines for their role based on class,

Thing is, you only really stacked three of the same with DPS anyway.

Stacking 3 tank or healer lines is usually actually redundant because they tend to have the same tools in, so you pick the best version of those tools and then choose your other lines to add utility around them.

You only need one copy of Major Resolve, you only need one self heal, you only need to hit block cap and any investment beyond is wasted, and you use a lot of scribed and weapon skills.

It just turns out currently that the best version of all of that is on Winter's Embrace* so you pick that and then decide what to support it with. DK is going to get worse at supporting Winter's Embrace in the next patch because instead of all the tools being in Earthen Heart they're getting split between that and Draconic Power and being done in a way that will make them less consistent to activate than just chucking a stone giant every so often to keep up a bit of stagger and minor brutality for everyone and reduce their value unless you invest in DK skills that you won't want to because you have other, better versions of the same tool.

If you're a pureclass DK tank this update does basically nothing to make you better, if you included DK in a subclassing tank it makes you worse.

Yay?

*Because Chilled is loaded with utility that is good for a tank to provide, much moreso than any other element's status, and Winter's Embrace comboed with a frost staff means you can do it better and more consistently with more skills.

And this is why the changes are more like heavy handed nerfs which also upend long time playstyles. I'm deeply saddened by these events.

Personofsecrets · January 12

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tank skills.
Dragon Blood

Talons

Chain

Wings (Group mitigation)

Worse than Polar Winds. (less reliable)

Worse than Gripping Shards. (more expensive, no chilled)

Worse than scribed chain. (Druid's Resurgence activates whether the target was pulled or not)

Radius too short for most situations (also already out of bar slots, and I gave them all Major Resolve with EFC).

Boom

And this is why what DK really needed was some buffs and mechanical changes, not a total revamp that rips everything about it apart.

Ratzkifal · January 12

Earnest_Victory wrote: »

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Storm Voice- makes zero sense for the dragonknight class. That seems like a sorcerer passive name. Voice of the Dragon would be better thematically

The Storm Voice has been one of the names for the Thu'um since Morrowind at the latest.

@Earnest_Victory That's the thing. Dragonknights are not wielders of Thu'um. They are Akaviri martial artists, who are mimicking Thu'um but are actually using something completely different. Unless we are meant to understand this change as a retcon (which I think would be a disservice to the concept of Thu'um), let's not confuse people about it further and not use The Storm Voice as a name for a DK passive.

Also "Voice of the Dragon" is only slightly less bad. Battle Roar was good because that's more or less what a "kiai" is. But hey, we might as well call the passive "Kiai" to make it even more obvious.

Ratzkifal · January 12

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tank skills.
Dragon Blood

Talons

Chain

Wings (Group mitigation)

Worse than Polar Winds. (less reliable)

Worse than Gripping Shards. (more expensive, no chilled)

Worse than scribed chain. (Druid's Resurgence activates whether the target was pulled or not)

Radius too short for most situations (also already out of bar slots, and I gave them all Major Resolve with EFC).

Personofsecrets wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tank skills.
Dragon Blood

Talons

Chain

Wings (Group mitigation)

Worse than Polar Winds. (less reliable)

Worse than Gripping Shards. (more expensive, no chilled)

Worse than scribed chain. (Druid's Resurgence activates whether the target was pulled or not)

Radius too short for most situations (also already out of bar slots, and I gave them all Major Resolve with EFC).

Boom

And this is why what DK really needed was some buffs and mechanical changes, not a total revamp that rips everything about it apart.

Welcome to the world post-subclassing. If you think Warden has the better tools for tanking, then subclass into Warden. I don't like what subclassing has done to this game either, but without removing/limiting/punishing subclassing a "revamp that rips everything apart" is the only logical consequence of attempting to balance subclassing.
Also, Warden will be put on the chopping block too, so don't get comfortable thinking that Warden will have the better tanking tools forever.

Realistically the only things you can do now are:

demand subclassing be undone so none of this is necessary anymore and we can return to single-purpose dedicated skill lines,
participate in PTS and suggest balance improvements to the chopped up DK skills until pure DK has the tools you think are necessary,
play Warden and brace for the next set of changes,
or give up.

Updating all classes at the same time no longer seems like an option at this point, so prepare for a bumpy balance ride over the next years. I recommend option one and two.

Personofsecrets · January 12

Ratzkifal wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tank skills.
Dragon Blood

Talons

Chain

Wings (Group mitigation)

Worse than Polar Winds. (less reliable)

Worse than Gripping Shards. (more expensive, no chilled)

Worse than scribed chain. (Druid's Resurgence activates whether the target was pulled or not)

Radius too short for most situations (also already out of bar slots, and I gave them all Major Resolve with EFC).

Personofsecrets wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tank skills.
Dragon Blood

Talons

Chain

Wings (Group mitigation)

Worse than Polar Winds. (less reliable)

Worse than Gripping Shards. (more expensive, no chilled)

Worse than scribed chain. (Druid's Resurgence activates whether the target was pulled or not)

Radius too short for most situations (also already out of bar slots, and I gave them all Major Resolve with EFC).

Boom

And this is why what DK really needed was some buffs and mechanical changes, not a total revamp that rips everything about it apart.

Welcome to the world post-subclassing. If you think Warden has the better tools for tanking, then subclass into Warden. I don't like what subclassing has done to this game either, but without removing/limiting/punishing subclassing a "revamp that rips everything apart" is the only logical consequence of attempting to balance subclassing.
Also, Warden will be put on the chopping block too, so don't get comfortable thinking that Warden will have the better tanking tools forever.

Realistically the only things you can do now are:
demand subclassing be undone so none of this is necessary anymore and we can return to single-purpose dedicated skill lines,

participate in PTS and suggest balance improvements to the chopped up DK skills until pure DK has the tools you think are necessary,

play Warden and brace for the next set of changes,

or give up.

Updating all classes at the same time no longer seems like an option at this point, so prepare for a bumpy balance ride over the next years. I recommend option one and two.

I already sub-class warden. My character is simply getting worse and the playstyle that I've enjoyed for 11 years is getting completey upended. Subclassing isn't an issue for me. Designers purposefully breaking apart skill lines so that those skill lines are not only less good, but lose the tools and functionality that they have had for a decaded is a problem.

GloatingSwine · January 12

Ratzkifal wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tank skills.
Dragon Blood

Talons

Chain

Wings (Group mitigation)

Worse than Polar Winds. (less reliable)

Worse than Gripping Shards. (more expensive, no chilled)

Worse than scribed chain. (Druid's Resurgence activates whether the target was pulled or not)

Radius too short for most situations (also already out of bar slots, and I gave them all Major Resolve with EFC).

Personofsecrets wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tank skills.
Dragon Blood

Talons

Chain

Wings (Group mitigation)

Worse than Polar Winds. (less reliable)

Worse than Gripping Shards. (more expensive, no chilled)

Worse than scribed chain. (Druid's Resurgence activates whether the target was pulled or not)

Radius too short for most situations (also already out of bar slots, and I gave them all Major Resolve with EFC).

Boom

And this is why what DK really needed was some buffs and mechanical changes, not a total revamp that rips everything about it apart.

Welcome to the world post-subclassing. If you think Warden has the better tools for tanking, then subclass into Warden. I don't like what subclassing has done to this game either, but without removing/limiting/punishing subclassing a "revamp that rips everything apart" is the only logical consequence of attempting to balance subclassing.
Also, Warden will be put on the chopping block too, so don't get comfortable thinking that Warden will have the better tanking tools forever.

Realistically the only things you can do now are:
demand subclassing be undone so none of this is necessary anymore and we can return to single-purpose dedicated skill lines,

participate in PTS and suggest balance improvements to the chopped up DK skills until pure DK has the tools you think are necessary,

play Warden and brace for the next set of changes,

or give up.

Updating all classes at the same time no longer seems like an option at this point, so prepare for a bumpy balance ride over the next years. I recommend option one and two.

I do subclass into Warden.

My contention is that DK used to be a very good addition to the core tools in Winter's Embrace because Minor Brutality for team, Stagger from Stone Giant, and Battle Roar were all useful and were all in the same place.

None of the skill lines will have all of those tools in, Draconic Power will have the new source of Minor Brutality and the new much worse Battle Roar (you will not slot three DK skills on one bar to power it up to even with now) but you won't have a convenient throwable to trigger the Minor Brutality, you'll pretty much be locked to using Talons for it which costs more for the sake of a synergy instead of the bonus damage from Stagger (since the boss should already be Minor Maimed from the Chilled which you will have applied to it with blockade/susceptibility)

(Stone Giant is also a useful thing you can throw around in fights where an off-tank doesn't have much to do, except not any more, but they seem to think it's a DPS skill so are probably confused tanks are even thinking about it.)

Nser · January 12

Please reverse flame lash (power lash) skill and the off balance on dragon knight you guys just destroy the best thing in the whip and dragonknight with this new change

The change is soo bad no off balance and the heal is weak.

Just dont change it keep the whip as it please
It just hug nerf to the class

@ZOS_Kevin

Ratzkifal · January 12

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tank skills.
Dragon Blood

Talons

Chain

Wings (Group mitigation)

Worse than Polar Winds. (less reliable)

Worse than Gripping Shards. (more expensive, no chilled)

Worse than scribed chain. (Druid's Resurgence activates whether the target was pulled or not)

Radius too short for most situations (also already out of bar slots, and I gave them all Major Resolve with EFC).

Personofsecrets wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tank skills.
Dragon Blood

Talons

Chain

Wings (Group mitigation)

Worse than Polar Winds. (less reliable)

Worse than Gripping Shards. (more expensive, no chilled)

Worse than scribed chain. (Druid's Resurgence activates whether the target was pulled or not)

Radius too short for most situations (also already out of bar slots, and I gave them all Major Resolve with EFC).

Boom

And this is why what DK really needed was some buffs and mechanical changes, not a total revamp that rips everything about it apart.

Welcome to the world post-subclassing. If you think Warden has the better tools for tanking, then subclass into Warden. I don't like what subclassing has done to this game either, but without removing/limiting/punishing subclassing a "revamp that rips everything apart" is the only logical consequence of attempting to balance subclassing.
Also, Warden will be put on the chopping block too, so don't get comfortable thinking that Warden will have the better tanking tools forever.

Realistically the only things you can do now are:
demand subclassing be undone so none of this is necessary anymore and we can return to single-purpose dedicated skill lines,

participate in PTS and suggest balance improvements to the chopped up DK skills until pure DK has the tools you think are necessary,

play Warden and brace for the next set of changes,

or give up.

Updating all classes at the same time no longer seems like an option at this point, so prepare for a bumpy balance ride over the next years. I recommend option one and two.

I already sub-class warden. My character is simply getting worse and the playstyle that I've enjoyed for 11 years is getting completey upended. Subclassing isn't an issue for me. Designers purposefully breaking apart skill lines so that those skill lines are not only less good, but lose the tools and functionality that they have had for a decaded is a problem.

ESO wasn't built with subclassing in mind 11 years ago. Breaking the skill lines apart is necessary under the subclass paradigm because it makes every individual skill line less attractive to be subclassed, which becomes a major issue if you use multiple tanking or DPS skill lines. If the DK's entire supporting power is in Earthen Heart, then any non-DK can become better than DK by just grabbing Earthen Heart and ignoring the rest. So if the sustain passive gets moved to Draconic Might, Earthen Heart becomes less attractive to nonDKs as a result, nerfing their overperforming builds.
With subclassing ZOS went from having to balance 7 classes against each other to having to balance 21 individual skill lines against each other. It didn't used to matter if Ardent Flame was more powerful than Draconic Might since all that really mattered was how powerful DK was as a whole. Now it does matter and the only fix to that is either punish players for subclassing (by lowering values when subclassing), introduce more restrictions to subclassing (only 1 new skill line per character) or by doing what they are doing right now, breaking the skill lines apart and spread out the power more evenly between them, even if that goes against what ZOS has been trying to do for years.
They tried to do their usual approach with Sorc when they wanted to take away Major Resolve but then had to capitulate because their new system has too many moving parts. Either Stamsorc or Sorc tank losing their only source of Major Resolve for example, forcing them to subclass when ZOS intially said that they wouldn't do that or how subclassing won't be leading to blanket nerfs.

This is exactly why so many people (myself included) were against subclassing or told them to push back the update, because we saw the writing on the walls. Now subclassing is here and it is likely here to stay. These are the consequences.

Tariq9898 · January 12

Skinny Cheeks also saying that Standard of Might needs to be reversed. Make Shifting standard the group support ult. I’ve also seen other creators such as Charles and Lucht express the same on Discord.

At 3:40.

https://youtu.be/swLoAXucgbQ?si=vPIQApNWACA3eSZO

Wolfshade · January 12

Overall it is reading pretty goOP atm and Corrosiv Onslaught Mayhem is might coming back.

Gives some hope for upcoming changes to other classes.

Radiate77 · January 12

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Skinny Cheeks also saying that Standard of Might needs to be reversed. Make Shifting standard the group support ult. I’ve also seen other creators such as Charles and Lucht express the same on Discord.

At 3:40.

https://youtu.be/swLoAXucgbQ?si=vPIQApNWACA3eSZO

Take Flight is the new Standard of Might.

Reversing Standard of Might will undo the work that was done to make Take Flight competitive.

irstarkey57 · January 12

Lord_Hev wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

If you’re running out of resources on Dragonknight, you’re double-casting, have the wrong skills on, and/or rotating poorly, and all of those are very easy things to fix… which further hammers home the point that you can play the game for a decade and still have no idea how to parse.

That is the entire purpose of this rework.

You can assume I don't know what I'm doing all you want. DK's having sustain issues is a widely agreed upon sentiment. There are way bigger issues than sustain alone, as listed in my previous post. If you think dummy humping is the way to measure these changes, well, lol. I guess this further hammers home the point that you can play the game for x amount of time and still have no idea what it's like to play in all the different content the game has to offer. cyro, bgs, dungeons, arenas, etc, etc. But hey, I hear dk is going to be really good at housing, enjoy!

I only play pureclass. My magdk had easy sustain before subclassing update. Now after all the changes, I've gotten so fed up having to heavy attack in content due to being starved for magicka that I slapped on a mag regen glyph. And this is also with me going with 4 or even 5 light armor. Before I was able to magdk parse with very comfortable sustain in 5 medium. All same exact rotation.

yep, same dude.

GloatingSwine · January 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Skinny Cheeks also saying that Standard of Might needs to be reversed. Make Shifting standard the group support ult. I’ve also seen other creators such as Charles and Lucht express the same on Discord.

At 3:40.

https://youtu.be/swLoAXucgbQ?si=vPIQApNWACA3eSZO

Take Flight is the new Standard of Might.

Reversing Standard of Might will undo the work that was done to make Take Flight competitive.

How is a self buff the new version of a team buff?

irstarkey57 · January 12

GloatingSwine wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Anyone who has mained magdk since the beginning knows how bad this stuff is. the things that needed buffed werent. the things that didn't need touched, were. i hope you guys realize that the dk's main and coolest skill, whip, is not even being used. something is seriously wrong with that. please fix it..

So Molten Whip is odd, right.

It's a buildup and burst skill, but it's also the only direct damage spam skill on the class. Everything else is a DoT so you won't repeatedly activate other skills in between whips, you will very occasionally get a one-charge whip if it comes after your FoO or Claw, and that isn't changing because unless New Stone Giant is a good enough spammer to replace whip as the main skill and have it only cast every fourth activation you will basically only coincidentally use it with charges when it happens to come after the reactivation of one of your DoTs.

Which is why everyone who's slotting it is backbarring it for the passive weapon and spell damage and using a different spammer that doesn't eat its charges.

Also, the new off-balance/extra stam on fully charged heavy attack is dead points. Ain't nobody got time to fully charge heavy attacks in this economy.

Yep, so true about whip. You have to spam "dots" to activate it. It's silly, its always been silly. Feeds in to why I say sustain is so bad, or at least one of the reasons. It makes absolutely no sense. Glad other people get it.

Radiate77 · January 12

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Skinny Cheeks also saying that Standard of Might needs to be reversed. Make Shifting standard the group support ult. I’ve also seen other creators such as Charles and Lucht express the same on Discord.

At 3:40.

https://youtu.be/swLoAXucgbQ?si=vPIQApNWACA3eSZO

Take Flight is the new Standard of Might.

Reversing Standard of Might will undo the work that was done to make Take Flight competitive.

How is a self buff the new version of a team buff?

Standard of Might was not a team buff.

Vulkunne · January 12

That's all fine and well but having one damage type for the DK is not good design. I think there should be fire damage from magicka sustain sources and poison damage from stamina sustain sources. It makes perfect sense to keep these inclusive instead of just making everything do fire damage. Both of these are dots and have status effects with specific usages. Poison, in other words, something that uses oil (from alchemy) fits in perfectly with fire because oil is flammable.

To me, building things this way just feels like they're making a Paladin, not a DragonKnight. Paladin being more aggressive than a Templar, but what I'm concerned will happen is people will say, my Templar already does all that and more, why do I need a DK?

And they'd be right. Then people who like the DK the way it is will say, this is no longer a class that I enjoy using and your changes are too much, too fast. There are reasons why the DragonKnight in its current form is so tough and cool, so unique. But much of your changes seem to be set on stripping all that away and watering the class down into something resembling a Templar, but not a Templar. I think many out there will take one look at this and we'll all leave for a nice subclass. That's what will surely happen with the DK here. I'm not with the majority on this, not with everyone here and I think preserving the DK's class identity is more important than overhauling the class to this extent with a broad vision in mind. Which I'm not sure what the vision would be, it's not wrong but it's aiming too high.

So, this is a screen capture of geological activity at Yellow Stone:

There is a large pocket of magma beneath. And so, in addition to all that fire, a great deal of poison chemicals, toxins, gas and other hazards are produced. So, your DragonKnight is alot of Fire and nothing else. Which is weird. It works with the Templar because they're using Holy Fire, but the DK is not like that. Its like there's also a few select way of producing Disease dmg with the DK as well, one thru Standard of Might, I think. It's one of those morphs. See its fire, and poison, and chains, and all kinds of things that make a DragonKnight and give it an identity.

This DK you're putting together has no real foundation in anything. Fire but nothing else produced from that fire. It would be like a Templar who only heals and never uses fire themselves when we all know how fire burns undead from movies. You see what I'm saying? There's also types of acid used when producing metal, in addition to the fire that goes with that. Fire and Poison really go together. I have no use for a Paladin. Subclass has already provided for one of those which is better in every conceivable way possible, at least as of today. Considering this fact, that the DK you're designing offers less than a regular DK, how would you expect it to even compete with a Subclass creation?

MXVIIDREAM · January 12

I want to start by saying I’m genuinely excited about the upcoming Dragonknight updates. There’s a lot here to love, and it’s great to see the class getting meaningful attention again.

However, there is one change that’s really difficult for me — and clearly many others — to accept: the new Dragonknight Spikes animation.

The original spikes weren’t just a visual effect; they were a core part of the Dragonknight’s identity. Full-body, outward-facing, aggressive spikes that instantly communicated power and intimidation. This animation has existed for over a decade, appearing in trailers, previews, and promotional material, and it’s something many of us have played with and grown attached to for years.

The new version feels more like a small spiked shell or backpack rather than a transformation, and it breaks the established class fantasy and lore that Dragonknight players have loved for so long.

To be clear, this isn’t about the gameplay changes — those are fine. This is purely about preserving the iconic visual identity of the class.

I respectfully ask that the original spike animation be restored, or at least offered as an option, while keeping the updated skill effects intact. Dragonknight spikes are synonymous with the class, and changing them this drastically takes away something fundamental.

Thank you for listening, and thank you for continuing to support Dragonknight. 🐉🔥

MXVIIDREAM · January 12

Vulkunne wrote: »

That's all fine and well but having one damage type for the DK is not good design. I think there should be fire damage from magicka sustain sources and poison damage from stamina sustain sources. It makes perfect sense to keep these inclusive instead of just making everything do fire damage. Both of these are dots and have status effects with specific usages. Poison, in other words, something that uses oil (from alchemy) fits in perfectly with fire because oil is flammable.

To me, building things this way just feels like they're making a Paladin, not a DragonKnight. Paladin being more aggressive than a Templar, but what I'm concerned will happen is people will say, my Templar already does all that and more, why do I need a DK? And they'd be right. Then people who like the DK the way it is will say, this is no longer a class that I enjoy using and your changes are too much, too fast. There are reasons why the DragonKnight in its current form is so tough and cool, so unique. But much of your changes seem to be set on stripping all that away and watering the class down into something resembling a Templar, but not a Templar.

I think many out there will take one look at this and we'll all leave for a nice subclass. That's what will surely happen with the DK here. I'm not with the majority on this, not with everyone here and I think preserving the DK's class identity is more important than overhauling the class to this extent with a broad vision in mind. Which I'm not sure what the vision would be, it's not wrong but it's aiming too high.

So, this is a screen capture of geological activity at Yellow Stone:

There is a large pocket of magma beneath. And so, in addition to all that fire, a great deal of poison chemicals, toxins, gas and other hazards are produced. So, your DragonKnight is alot of Fire and nothing else. Which is weird. It works with the Templar because they're using Holy Fire, but the DK is not like that. Its like there's also a few select way of producing Disease dmg with the DK as well, one thru Standard of Might, I think. It's one of those morphs. See its fire, and poison, and chains, and all kinds of things that make a DragonKnight and give it an identity.

This DK you're putting together has no real foundation in anything. Fire but nothing else produced from that fire. It would be like a Templar who only heals and never uses fire themselves when we all know how fire burns undead from movies. You see what I'm saying? There's also types of acid used when producing metal, in addition to the fire that goes with that. Fire and Poison really go together.

I love my DK and part of the reason why is because its different but it's the difference that makes it special, not conforming. Conforming is what brought us Herald of the Tome, I suspect. But that aside, I have no use for a Paladin. Subclass has already provided for one of those which is better in every conceivable way possible, at least as of today. Considering this fact, that the DK you're designing offers less than a regular DK, how would you expect it to even compete with a Subclass creation?

This is not going to stop players from using subclassing, if anything it will intensify it as we all flee upcoming class changes.

Ontop of all this dk has lost its spikes

MXVIIDREAM · January 12

I pray this is reverted back to the old animation the new skip is great but the animation takes away everything we love about dragonknights

s3dulo · January 13

Was this the intention? Is this the plan for all other classes? Jumble skill lines and remove the identity from every skill line? It's all just a mishmash blob of random fire skills. I doubt that's the plan for Warden. Warden has an actual theme and identity in each line. DK almost had that but not quite. Physical, poison, fire. Earth, dragon flame. Now it doesn't really have anything but lots and lots of fire.

Lol I don't know what I was expecting but it wasn't this homogeneous blob of what feels like random passives and fire skills.

Apollosipod · January 13

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

I pray this is reverted back to the old animation the new skip is great but the animation takes away everything we love about dragonknights

I gotta disagree here. While I think the spikes could be a little bigger, the old animations is just awful. It's like a skill ported from a PS2. Between the two, this is still better

CAB_Life · January 13

The wings look really silly. The update overall is great, and the art team is often on point, but this was a miss.

noneatza · January 13

I don't know how many care about this since people mostly give feedback on the dd aspect of it.

From a tank(mainly earthen heart) POV:

All is fine on the dd side of things, if not a bit overtuned/undertuned in certain spots as many others have pointed out before me, and the animations are overall sick AF.
But on the tank side...ehhhh I will definitely be one of the "back in my day" tanks in regards to stone giant.

But, BUT, BUT I do have one massive gripe with it, why the rework of helping hands? Being able to just invest into mag regen and use igneous shield to regain stamina made for one of the easier pathways to get into tanking (if we ignore the arcanist ofc). And also it was very efficient at skillcap, now other than the nerfed stone giant there's way fewer reasons to tank on a DK.

I know this feedback(complaint?) is just one that will get lost and ignored but if you're like me and mourning the loss of helping hands, you're not alone buddy

.

LtClungeX · January 13

Hi, I don't come to the forums often, I'm a DK main, I've played on and off since console launch, on both pc and console I know the dk inside and out, the current changes to my main class are bitter sweet, there's some major issues and if it goes live as is, it would be a massive disappointment.

Typically I'm not a complainer and Its not all doom and gloom so ill start with the positives,

Positives

Visuals
fire breath looks incredible, searing strike talons and petrify look great.

Balance
the DOT changes were needed, every one in PVP runs purify or netch and the changes will add some much needed pressure, corrosive armour changes are good, inhale being on ardent flame is nice but expensive. Molten armament's awesome. expedition on wings was always needed is it 6 seconds? it should be 6 seconds.

Negatives

Visuals

Why is everything now a fire circle? the new flames of oblivion the new cinder storm, the new flame lash, the new talons and the new inhale and standard, as an opponent fighting a dk how will you even distinguish what the dk player has used? iots just a bunch of fiery rings

the new dk armour looks terrible, the new dragons blood looks terrible the old one was better. corrosive looks bugged atm so cant judge but probably should be green

Balance

Okay I'm most upset about this I've been having sinking feelings in my belly because of this if nothing changes I will leave, if devs read this I'm begging for this reconsideration

Fire breath moving to draconic power, wow please no.

First of all I'm losing fracture on my offensive skill line, with noxious,( warden has this both major and minor aoe,) which is a massive nerf, if subclassed, (you said you wanted skill lines to be more modular, this goes against the logic)

secondly how does it make sense to have the coolest looking fire spell not in the ardent FLAME skill line, fire claw and noxious breath go together mechanically please reconsider.

My suggestions

please read this.

I understand that you want to make fire breath synergize with leap and that's okay, lets think about this.
Draconic power is for healing and tanking, you have dragons blood, spiked armour, healing passives and armour passives, so why not put cinder storm (a heal) and dk standard (damage mitigation) on draconic power and move leap and fire breath to ardent flame, call ardent flame, dragon's fury /inferno/wrath or something for to fit the theme, this makes more sense for both PVE and PVP, leap has always been the offensive ultimate of choice for PVP, having standard with chains, talons and cinder storm for a tank in one skill line makes sense for PVE it would literally all synergize.

other gripes

Whip my changes to whip would read like this

Lava whip costs magicka, gain stacks of seething fury just like molten whip adds weapon and spell damage just like molten whip but you can gain 6 stacks so you get 2 power lashes but still only getting 300 weapon and spell damage at 3 stacks hitting and enemy whips power lash adds magicka steal to the target. the second power lash must be used within 5 seconds before dropping off

molten whip costs stamina gain stacks of seething fury just like molten whip adds weapon and spell damage just like molten whip but you can gain 6 stacks so you get 2 power lashes but still only getting 300 weapon and spell damage at 3 stacks hitting and enemy whips power lash adds sundered to the target. the second power lash must be used within 5 seconds before dropping off

in other words it gets the spec bow treatment. or at least allow us to keep the 300 weapon and spell damage for 5 seconds after the whip, the damage falling off after whipping is awful.

It would be good if both dragons bloods gave minor intellect and endurance sustain is needed .

I would of liked to of seen a reduced cost in ardent flame abilities they just cost too much compared to other skill lines.

although the new fossilize looks good I liked the old instant one I'm assuming the change was made to hit dragon fire breath on players more easily,

Wing buffet? seriously I love hot wings but why not gale wings? tail wind? for the expedition version make all speed buff 6'seconds, race against time bow roll dodge passive, and reduce cost of retreating maneuverers, I know that's not dk feed back but please consider

Earthen heart makes no sense at all, what has earth got to do with dragons or knights? make it, knight themed call it Alessian Knight.

stone fist remove this skill, instead give us

Flames of Akatosh purify up to 3 negative effect gain one ultimate for each negative effect removed

morphs Fury/valor of Akatosh purify 3 negetive effect and gain 2 ultimate for each negetive effect removed
Blessings of Akatosh remove up to 4 negative effect from you and your group mates in a 12 meter radius no longer gives ultimate.

with a purify all of a sudden earthen heart becomes desirable.

Call corrosive and magma armour, armour of akatosh or Alessian armour, you have a good skin for it with the final fight from molag bal,

Please please consider my suggestions, I think and I'm sure others will think the same as I do.

Ps thankyou for tying new things and trying to improve the game.

I have to go to work now will update this later

all the best.
Luke.

Vaelithra_Sundergale · January 13

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LtClungeX · January 13

s3dulo wrote: »

Can't wait to check this out on the PTS but straight off, just from reading, I hate that you are moving fiery breath from Ardent. One of the things that is unique to Ardent is having major savagery/prophecy, an incredible major breach AOE, and a nasty spamable in one line. I don't, at all, get why you would move it. There is no other line that offers this. You've certainly improved DK overall but this one change is really leaving a sour taste.

Yes they need to move leap and fire breath to ardent flame, and standard and cider storm to draconic power. that way chains talons, standard and cinder storm all synergize, and leap fire breath synergize in ardent flame, breach needs to be in the offensive skill line.

CrimsonXReaper · January 13

As a main DK with over 12k hours, here’s my take along with feedback from friends on the changes that feel too intense or unnecessary. I think many players would agree with at least some of these points. @ZOS_Kevin

Standard of Might: Not being able to move the standard is underwhelming, maybe make the effect persist for a while after moving out of it.

Lava Whip: Overall it looks great, but the audio feels off. It sounds wet, almost like SpongeBob’s footsteps when spammed.
Flamelash: Still the underwhelming morph out of the two with the 20s cooldown effect. Needs improvement.

Core of Flame: Interesting sustain tool but its damage is so bad, would be a lot more useful if it pulsed damage on cast and every 2 second after lining up with the resource restore.

Hearthfire: I don’t like that both morphs are now heal‑focused, especially considering it’s a fireball falling from the sky that turns into an AoE. Most of the new visuals reuse the same fire VFX, which makes it harder to see what’s actually happening. The older version had more personality with the black smoke and was simply more visually appealing. The minor heroism and fortitude should be applied on over heals. Also I don't think it should be in Ardent Flame. Breath should probably be back here.

Engulfing Dragonfire: The lack of movement speed while channeling might make this ability completely unusable in PvP. Movement speed bonuses also do not increase the speed.

Disintegrating Dragonfire/Burning Embers: Both skill DoTs should have a damage increase to make up for the duration loss.

Inferno: This didn’t need to become a smaller AoE with waves. It was the only DK ranged skill that could pressure people streaking through me and helped me track where to aim my camera while chasing. The new VFX, swirling fire around the arms, feel strange. I’d much rather have the floating fireball back, it already looked great. Please revert.

Dragon Blood: I’m glad my character no longer turns translucent with a beating heart, but I really dislike the floating heart above the head. Honestly, just remove the heart entirely. A subtle fire effect on the skin, or nothing at all, would be much better.

Wing Buffet: Hard to comment fully yet, but maybe there should be a limit on how many players it affects. In 8v8, giving 8 people 25% projectile damage reduction feels a bit over tuned.

Earthen Heart: The whole skill line feels weak. People are definitely going to subclass out of it. The only ability that looks good is Corrosive Armor. Overall, this is worse than live.

Corrosive Armor: The area DoT is too strong.

Superheated Ward: Honestly, the entire concept should just be removed.

Obsidian Shield: Still as weak as it is on live. This skill is never going to be used, same issue as Superheated Ward. The concept just doesn’t work.

Molten Weapons: I liked it at first, but then realized: why do I even have weapon outfit styles if this overrides them? On the long term, people will get tired of looking at it and would rather see their chosen weapon styles with a fire VFX layered on top 100%. I’d much prefer an improved version of the current live effect. If I get tired of it, I’ll probably just use another source of Brutality or Sorcery.

Maybe even keep Molten Armaments with the new change, and let Igneous Weapons (mostly used in PvP) retain the older fire‑layered VFX on top, which would also help reduce particle clutter.

Earthspike: There are already multiple posts about this, so I won’t add more.

Other

Uppercut: The VFX reads more like a slash than the heavy, clunky impact of an uppercut or a dizzying swing. A visual tweak and reduced cast time isn’t enough to fix the ability’s weaker performance. It should deal significantly more damage even if the off‑balance effect is removed, especially since that effect isn’t particularly useful to begin with.

I think what would really help build diversity is reverting the change, removing the extra effects, increasing the base damage, and letting players choose between a stamina or magicka morph while also selecting the damage type. For the stamina morph, players could pick between bleed, poison, or disease damage. For the magicka morph, they could choose fire, frost, or shock.

It’s just a thought, but this kind of system could make the first ability of other weapon lines (except staves) far more interesting and customizable.

Vampire: Ever since the Undeath change, it’s not really possible to run Vampire in PvP anymore, which is lame. I’ve always played as a vampire even my name is vampire inspired but now I’m just nerfing myself if I use it. It’s only good for stealth builds.

Overall, I’m glad DK is getting attention, but some of these changes just don’t land for me. The VFX feel excessive. Keeping the original visuals and simply modernizing and polishing them would have been a better direction. This may come across as mostly negative, but I’d rather focus on the issues than repeat what already works well. Keep up the good work, and I hope some of this feedback will be taken into consideration.

Thank you.

SneaK · January 13

Molten Weapons

What if….. it enabled whatever weapon skill line to use flame damage instead? 2H Flame Damage Dizzy for instance.

Then, when they reassign poison/frost/etc the other classes get something similar.

s3dulo · January 13

CrimsonXReaper wrote: »

As a main DK with over 12k hours, here’s my take on some of the changes that feel too intense or unnecessary. I think a lot of players would agree with at least some of these points.

Lava Whip: Overall it looks great, but the audio feels off. It sounds wet, almost like SpongeBob’s footsteps when spammed.

Hearthfire: I don’t like that both morphs are now heal‑focused, especially considering it’s a fireball falling from the sky that turns into an AoE. Most of the new visuals reuse the same fire VFX, which makes it harder to see what’s actually happening. The older version had more personality with the black smoke and was simply more visually appealing. Also I don't think it should be in Ardent Flame. Breath should probably be back here.

Inferno: This didn’t need to become a smaller AoE with waves. It was the only DK ranged skill that could pressure people streaking through me and helped me track where to aim my camera while chasing. The new VFX, swirling fire around the arms, feel strange. I’d much rather have the floating fireball back; it already looked great. Please revert.

Dragon Blood: I’m glad my character no longer turns translucent with a beating heart, but I really dislike the floating heart above the head. Honestly, just remove the heart entirely. A subtle fire effect on the skin, or nothing at all, would be much better.

Wing Buffet: Hard to comment fully yet, but maybe there should be a limit on how many players it affects. In 8v8, giving 8 people 25% projectile damage reduction feels a bit over tuned.

Earthen Heart: The whole skill line feels weak. People are definitely going to subclass out of it. The only ability that looks good is Corrosive Armor. Overall, this is worse than live.

Superheated Ward: Honestly, the entire concept should just be removed.

Obsidian Shield: Still as weak as it is on live. This skill is never going to be used, same issue as Superheated Ward. The concept just doesn’t work.

Molten Weapons: I liked it at first, but then realized: why do I even have weapon outfit styles if this overrides them? On the long term, people will get tired of looking at it and would rather see their chosen weapon styles with a fire VFX layered on top 100%. I’d much prefer an improved version of the current live effect. If I get tired of it, I’ll probably just use another source of Brutality or Sorcery. Maybe even keep a morph with it and the other without.

Earthspike: There are already multiple posts about this, so I won’t add more.

Overall, I’m glad DK is getting attention, but some of these changes just don’t land for me. The VFX feel excessive. Keeping the original visuals and simply modernizing and polishing them would have been a better direction. This may come across as mostly negative, but I’d rather focus on the issues than repeat what already works well. Keep up the good work, and I hope some of this feedback will be taken into consideration. Thank you.

I'll just double-click on what you said about the sound. Sounds are way too wet and chunky. You know what it sounds like? It sounds like an Arcanist. They made everything fire and instead of intense dry roars they have these awful wet warbles. I have to say, I actually HATE it.

ujimax · January 14

My main is a (hybrid) stamina Dragonknight, so seeing the loss of the poison theme and the Molten Whip hits hard (no pun intended), so the did the added interrupt delay on deep breath... will bother downloading the pts to figure out a build that works for me with these changes. The new skill effects that got showcased on the bethesda_de stream did look good (even tho the turtle shell was amusing).

What happened to Cauterize? It is missing from these patch notes, only the breakdown on Inferno/Incinerate morph (originally Flames of Oblivion) is on there. There are also some formatting errors with Spiked Armor/Dragonfire Breath part @ZOS_Kevin

Chains are still undodgeable - I hope? I also gave away so many Elf Bane pieces last year and now people will want to buy them now for 15 seconds of Corrosive Armor?
Burning Heart < World in Ruin: Shalk aoe boost?
Petrify/Fossilize being dodgeable actually sounds good
Mountain Giant < Helping Hands: ...off-balance on Fully charged Heavy Attack... not a fan

With the swapping around of certain key skills to different skill lines it does seem more complicated to choose which to swap out or what might be interested to incorporate as another class. Will reserve judgement after trying these out on PTS, and even if the class would really suck now, there's two skill lines to replace and other characters to play. In Wheeler we trust.