Agreed, making Uppercut faster is certainly a prelude to an incoming nerf and I would much rather just keep the cast time.

Personally I like being able to medium weave people down with Dizzy, and get much more resources on heavy attacks, but yeah we’ve been creeping towards an instant-cast skill and I’d rather not have Uppercut lose it’s identity.

I like it. Looks cool, and if LA weaving into repeated casts it lets the LA look a bit more aligned with the flow of attacks.

Only complaint is that the contrails seem way too excessive for the visual rework as a whole (But I'm not a flashy kind of person, could these be toned down/slotted into skill styles?).

But, why would they remove damage from a skill that is still beholden to the GCD?

GCD starts at cast, not on channel end, it's why you can do something like Dizzy+SA landing withing a GCD, or Snipe+SA. Unless there's some hidden oddities I'm not aware of.

Myself this will be an interesting skill to use to source Major Berserk prior to a cast-time effect, such as the DK's new Engulfing Flames)

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I like it. Looks cool, and if LA weaving into repeated casts it lets the LA look a bit more aligned with the flow of attacks.

Only complaint is that the contrails seem way too excessive for the visual rework as a whole (But I'm not a flashy kind of person, could these be toned down/slotted into skill styles?).

But, why would they remove damage from a skill that is still beholden to the GCD?

GCD starts at cast, not on channel end, it's why you can do something like Dizzy+SA landing withing a GCD, or Snipe+SA. Unless there's some hidden oddities I'm not aware of.

Myself this will be an interesting skill to use to source Major Berserk prior to a cast-time effect, such as the DK's new Engulfing Flames)

Way back when they had kept playing with the timing and always adjusted its damage based on the cast time. Originally the whole draw of the skill was aiming and hitting the long cast time for a skill that did 1.5x the spammable damage as a reward. It was chunky and hit hard.

Now the skill plays like any other spammble. You cant fully rely on it like before and inevitably you need to supplement it with a timed skill like sub assault or curse. So instead of being its own playstyle now it is a clunky niche version of the generic playstyle available all throughout the game.

Just hard for me as a 10 year stamsorc player to see my main playstyle gutted apart and then gutted even more.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I like it. Looks cool, and if LA weaving into repeated casts it lets the LA look a bit more aligned with the flow of attacks.

Only complaint is that the contrails seem way too excessive for the visual rework as a whole (But I'm not a flashy kind of person, could these be toned down/slotted into skill styles?).

But, why would they remove damage from a skill that is still beholden to the GCD?

GCD starts at cast, not on channel end, it's why you can do something like Dizzy+SA landing withing a GCD, or Snipe+SA. Unless there's some hidden oddities I'm not aware of.

Myself this will be an interesting skill to use to source Major Berserk prior to a cast-time effect, such as the DK's new Engulfing Flames)

Way back when they had kept playing with the timing and always adjusted its damage based on the cast time. Originally the whole draw of the skill was aiming and hitting the long cast time for a skill that did 1.5x the spammable damage as a reward. It was chunky and hit hard.

Now the skill plays like any other spammble. You cant fully rely on it like before and inevitably you need to supplement it with a timed skill like sub assault or curse. So instead of being its own playstyle now it is a clunky niche version of the generic playstyle available all throughout the game.

Just hard for me as a 10 year stamsorc player to see my main playstyle gutted apart and then gutted even more.

Oh gotcha, your concern is PvP Burst (Why else bring up curse or shalks).

Even if it did go back to the old one, you'd still be slapping shalks/contingency/curse on it since you can layer them, still playing the same meta because that'd be even more burst damage.

Why not try layering it all with Anthelmir's, using a HA into a CC ability?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just hard for me as a 10 year stamsorc player to see my main playstyle gutted apart and then gutted even more.

Bit off topic, but as a StamSorc main, I would prepare yourself for when Sorcerer loses Physical Damage.

Oh the second I heard about subclassing I knew the go to was going to be animal, assassin, and storm. Stamwarden, stamsorc, and stamblade have all relied on a single skill line forever. Then we got the chance to use all 3 which perfectly fill in their gaps?

Stamblade had DPS skills but missed buffs and utility
Stamsorc had utility but missed buffs and dps skills
Stamwarden had buffs but missed utility and dps.

Perfect storm right there. If jabs didnt miss targets that are standing still we probably would see alot more aedric in top level pvp.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I like it. Looks cool, and if LA weaving into repeated casts it lets the LA look a bit more aligned with the flow of attacks.

Only complaint is that the contrails seem way too excessive for the visual rework as a whole (But I'm not a flashy kind of person, could these be toned down/slotted into skill styles?).

But, why would they remove damage from a skill that is still beholden to the GCD?

GCD starts at cast, not on channel end, it's why you can do something like Dizzy+SA landing withing a GCD, or Snipe+SA. Unless there's some hidden oddities I'm not aware of.

Myself this will be an interesting skill to use to source Major Berserk prior to a cast-time effect, such as the DK's new Engulfing Flames)

Way back when they had kept playing with the timing and always adjusted its damage based on the cast time. Originally the whole draw of the skill was aiming and hitting the long cast time for a skill that did 1.5x the spammable damage as a reward. It was chunky and hit hard.

Now the skill plays like any other spammble. You cant fully rely on it like before and inevitably you need to supplement it with a timed skill like sub assault or curse. So instead of being its own playstyle now it is a clunky niche version of the generic playstyle available all throughout the game.

Just hard for me as a 10 year stamsorc player to see my main playstyle gutted apart and then gutted even more.

Oh gotcha, your concern is PvP Burst (Why else bring up curse or shalks).

Even if it did go back to the old one, you'd still be slapping shalks/contingency/curse on it since you can layer them, still playing the same meta because that'd be even more burst damage.

Why not try layering it all with Anthelmir's, using a HA into a CC ability?

Well you wouldn't want to back then. Yes you can now, but the purpose of the oldschool dizzy stamsorc was that there was no setup. The build was the speed class which could engage and disengage on a target at whim. (again now adays speed is a joke and everyone is as fast or even faster than stamsorc)

You are talking about setting it up as a traditional generic meta build where there is not lost time or the issue of people countering your long cast time leaving you unblocked during setup and open to stun, snare, or root counters. All of which end your planned combo.

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Zos allowing and not designing against timed skills was a terrible move too. They already saw issues with crystal weapon and imbue.....then they let subclassing have people pair up 3 proc sets, curse, shalks, merciless, you name it all at the same time. No wonder we are stuck in a meta where people stall tank run around for 40s and only do ult combos.

I'm confused.

You're talking about there not being setup when your reminiscing on an ability with a longer channel time before damage, more setup, that is better telegraphed and able to be blocked or dodged in order to allow for greater damage, if it lands.

That being said, haven't played oldschool stamsorc. Was there a way to bypass the windup? Or is this annoyance on how complex burst in the current-day meta is?

ya the dk animations are a W, at least at a first glance. God knows what issues they will cause down the road, and honestly i would have sooner just had the old ones because i played with them for a decade. But these do look nice. That being said, the 2h ones are a massive L. Not a fan. They look mid and feel bad.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just hard for me as a 10 year stamsorc player to see my main playstyle gutted apart and then gutted even more.

Bit off topic, but as a StamSorc main, I would prepare yourself for when Sorcerer loses Physical Damage.

Oh the second I heard about subclassing I knew the go to was going to be animal, assassin, and storm. Stamwarden, stamsorc, and stamblade have all relied on a single skill line forever. Then we got the chance to use all 3 which perfectly fill in their gaps?

Stamblade had DPS skills but missed buffs and utility
Stamsorc had utility but missed buffs and dps skills
Stamwarden had buffs but missed utility and dps.

Perfect storm right there. If jabs didnt miss targets that are standing still we probably would see alot more aedric in top level pvp.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I like it. Looks cool, and if LA weaving into repeated casts it lets the LA look a bit more aligned with the flow of attacks.

Only complaint is that the contrails seem way too excessive for the visual rework as a whole (But I'm not a flashy kind of person, could these be toned down/slotted into skill styles?).

But, why would they remove damage from a skill that is still beholden to the GCD?

GCD starts at cast, not on channel end, it's why you can do something like Dizzy+SA landing withing a GCD, or Snipe+SA. Unless there's some hidden oddities I'm not aware of.

Myself this will be an interesting skill to use to source Major Berserk prior to a cast-time effect, such as the DK's new Engulfing Flames)

Way back when they had kept playing with the timing and always adjusted its damage based on the cast time. Originally the whole draw of the skill was aiming and hitting the long cast time for a skill that did 1.5x the spammable damage as a reward. It was chunky and hit hard.

Now the skill plays like any other spammble. You cant fully rely on it like before and inevitably you need to supplement it with a timed skill like sub assault or curse. So instead of being its own playstyle now it is a clunky niche version of the generic playstyle available all throughout the game.

Just hard for me as a 10 year stamsorc player to see my main playstyle gutted apart and then gutted even more.

Oh gotcha, your concern is PvP Burst (Why else bring up curse or shalks).

Even if it did go back to the old one, you'd still be slapping shalks/contingency/curse on it since you can layer them, still playing the same meta because that'd be even more burst damage.

Why not try layering it all with Anthelmir's, using a HA into a CC ability?

Well you wouldn't want to back then. Yes you can now, but the purpose of the oldschool dizzy stamsorc was that there was no setup. The build was the speed class which could engage and disengage on a target at whim. (again now adays speed is a joke and everyone is as fast or even faster than stamsorc)

You are talking about setting it up as a traditional generic meta build where there is not lost time or the issue of people countering your long cast time leaving you unblocked during setup and open to stun, snare, or root counters. All of which end your planned combo.

---

Zos allowing and not designing against timed skills was a terrible move too. They already saw issues with crystal weapon and imbue.....then they let subclassing have people pair up 3 proc sets, curse, shalks, merciless, you name it all at the same time. No wonder we are stuck in a meta where people stall tank run around for 40s and only do ult combos.

I'm confused.

You're talking about there not being setup when your reminiscing on an ability with a longer channel time before damage, more setup, that is better telegraphed and able to be blocked or dodged in order to allow for greater damage, if it lands.

That being said, haven't played oldschool stamsorc. Was there a way to bypass the windup? Or is this annoyance on how complex burst in the current-day meta is?

When you find an enemy player, you have to setup to attack them. So you buff up, then debuff them, then cast dots on them, then do timed setups, then go into spammable combo.

Stamsorc back in the day 2014-2017 era didnt have any of that. You were just a freight train running around as fast as possible hunting for skill shots. You would run up or streak in, then do a dizzy, techchase the block or roll dodge with an execute or ult, then leave. No commitment, just going straight in and out on a target.

No there was no bypass for the cast time. You went into the swing animation and were open to be hit, pressured, stunned, snared, rooted, ulted, burst the whole time. Plenty of swing animation for a clear telegraph, and plenty of counterplay options for your opponent.

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maybe another reference would help. Imagine if you play Call of duty and loved sniping because it required a quick precise skillshot but was hard to hit. Then slowly the game devs say "oh its too hard to hit, so lets half the damage, but make it shoot 2x as fast"...."ehh lets now make it shoot automatically".........Well now its not a sniper...........Its just your typical rifle/machine gun. If I wanted to use a machine gun, I would have slotted a machine gun.

Hmm, by techchase I assume you mean blockcancelling the channel to be able to immediately cast another ability, bypassing the GCD that would have otherwise triggered and performing a "feint", where the only correct option was to just hold block?

Anyway, I don't see too much of an issue with a longer channel, but not on the first ability for the 2H skill-line. Slow, cumbersome, not a great introduction to a skill-line. Maybe they can add more skills to weapon skill-lines in the future, techniques learned through various guilds or NPC's, where such an attack is like that.

But making the 2H more streamlined with how general ability use is handled is the better first step, IMO.

Yes by tech chase I mean stop what you are doing and wait for your opponent to move so you can hit the stun or hit your followup. For example i dizzy stun someone and they roll dodge after I would stall for a split sec to land the execute or to sync up my next dizzy hit.

Well so it used to be that most NPCs did the 2h charge up skill too so even PvE players would learn the play/counterplay intuitively. When was the last time an NPC tought you the inner workings of offbalance mechanics?

Generally weapon skills are not even the spammables anymore with the focus on class skill lines. Initial first impressions are always going to come from the class spammables. Considering weapons are practically optional extra skills you would want to design these to have their own unique flavor instead of being a worse copy of the inclass spammable people have.

React wrote: »

Im just not a fan of the new animation at all. Much preferred the old one.

So after playing it ingame it feels weird to weave. Its very easy to mess up your light attack between dizzy hits. I think because it is just not clear when the hit happens. The animation is way too flamboyant.(granted I keep having my animations bug and stop showing LMAO)

I will say I like it more than current dizzy, but I would prefer to go way back to pre elsweyr dizzy with the knockup and long charge time.

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maybe change onslaught to be old dizzy lol. Instead of the proposed, bound to be nerfed, concept. Let me knock someone into the air with an aim check at the end of the cast on a low cost ult with around 1.5 to 1.75 damage coefficient. DK leap atleast does more than that lol

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IMO it is also not great to bloat combat with needless animation soup. All the big red wooshy trialing animations are cool, but its not a single player game. With a hundred players on screen we NEED to see important animations like Ultimates, Stuns, Pulls.......not some idiot spamming a sword swing.

As a player with high ping (300+ms) I've always hated cast times because having high ping always made them effectively double in length (made the skills actually unusable when they were 1 second cast time or longer) and it just gets worse and more buggy the more that performance degrades.

Over time I've gotten used to some of the shorter cast times (up to 0.5s which is most ults) to still use such abilities and not have them essentially be free GCDs for my opponent to cast something while I can't, but this has come with other issues, namely animation locks and desyncs where my character tries to medium weave despite only inputting for a light attack and the animations mess up and lock my character from doing anything until I dodge roll or bash spam and it fixes itself (sometimes casting everything at once, sometimes just doing nothing at all) and while not exclusive to abilities with cast times, it is far more prevalent when weaving while using abilities with cast times and the longer the cast time, the worse it is. Another bug I have also experienced due to abilities with cast times is bar swap being ignored, even post cast, there's a significant (up to 1s) delay on being able to bar swap, often requiring multiple inputs to fix it (especially noticeable when using dark deal with its 1 second cast time).

I don't mind having skill shots in the game, but with how many issues cast times have, especially with high ping, poor performance and bugs, I like that they are moving away from long cast times to shorter ones.