Cyrodiil Healing Nerf!!

edward_frigidhands · January 13

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Dalinar4 wrote: »

50% healing nerf 2.0

The goal seems to be targeted specifically at Ball Groups, but this will hurt "normal" players the most. Nuking all healing received by 50% with a mostly uncontrollable proc condition is one of the worse decisions I have ever seen in this game. Burst healing is one of the primary ways solo players survive.Being a healer in PvP is now a net negative to your faction's survivability.

Instead:
1. Only applies to Healing over time skills
2. 2.5% healing received reduction for each player you are grouped with. 12 players = 27.50%, 30% if you count yourself.
3. Limit the number of the same HOT on each person. Example: 3 Echoing Vigor stacks, hit by #4 resets the oldest one.

The amount of extra calculations this would add to the server would be insane. The lag would be the worst its ever been.

Not enough people are pointing out the server performance related ramifications of this change in a game where that is already an issue more prominent and prevalent than the one they are trying to address with this change.

Teeba_Shei · January 13

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I hate to say it, but this really feels like they’re rolling out this garbage in week one on purpose, just so when the real change they want to make comes later it doesn’t seem as bad by comparison.

This is a textbook negotiation tactic — start with an extreme, unreasonable position so that when you “compromise,” people are relieved and accept something they would’ve pushed back on otherwise. It’s the same thing you see in salary negotiations, and it’s incredibly transparent here.

If that’s what’s happening, it’s hard not to see this as manipulative rather than thoughtful balance design.

Agreed. Even a slightly reduced version of this would be enough to keep me from returning. The core issue right now isn’t ball groups—it’s resist stacking and the ability to overcap resists to absurd levels like 40k. Ball groups only feel oppressive because you can’t adapt to fight them effectively; being stuck in combat prevents swapping setups, which removes any real counterplay.

edward_frigidhands · January 13

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I hate to say it, but this really feels like they’re rolling out this garbage in week one on purpose, just so when the real change they want to make comes later it doesn’t seem as bad by comparison.

This is a textbook negotiation tactic — start with an extreme, unreasonable position so that when you “compromise,” people are relieved and accept something they would’ve pushed back on otherwise. It’s the same thing you see in salary negotiations, and it’s incredibly transparent here.

If that’s what’s happening, it’s hard not to see this as manipulative rather than thoughtful balance design.

I would think this true if I hadnt seen previous just as badly thought out changes throughout the many years.

Still, you could be right.

I personally think that doesn't change the fact that there needs to be feedback and pushback against what we're seeing from them right now regardless.

We will see what happens next week though.

Lagzee · January 13

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just chatted with the combat team. For those who think this change needs more work, we’re passing this feedback on so our teams can iterate on this. Please make sure to clearly express your feedback so we can take it into account during adjustments.

I think this is better than doing nothing but i do share the concern of @MincMincMinc this could potentially lead to someone coming to help you in an outnumbered fight, throwing a like 2 hots on you, then you vigor, and your burst heal is nerfed by 50%. Like that would be awful. And its not even potentially, that situation will happen quite often.

I dont think this is how a lot of people imagined the heal stacking and ball group issue would be addressed. Ive said it before, when 2 ball groups are in the same area fighting you can feel it through the entire server. And theres no wonder why, all you have to do is watch them constantly re spamming hots, buffs, shields, set procs, etc.

I think the easiest, and most effective, way to go about it is very similar to what many others have said. Why not just make hots remove themselves when they overlap? Whether at full health or not. There are so many hots in the game people dont need vigor from 12 sources, and rapid regen from 8 sources, etc. And they should include aoes in this as well.

Or at the very least, if they insist on moving forward in this way, they should make it so if 3 or more hots are on you all incoming healing is reduced, but not your own. Although maybe we are reading it wrong, i cant remember if healing taken includes your own healing.

But if im being honest its strange that they wouldnt just go about all of this in the easiest way and simply not make HoTs stack. Its what so many people had hoped the combat team would do.

IncultaWolf · January 13

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

Artisian0001 · January 13

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

So you have an issue with PvE players dying to 12 man groups. You want the 12 man groups to die to the PvE players? When you frame your arguments like this it's just silly. Sorry, 12 man coordinated groups will kill PvE and solo players, this will happen with a 50% nerf or not. Try engaging with the actual problems people bring up rather than just claiming they play in ballgroups.

master_vanargand · January 13

Great.
What this means is that in 4v4, you should decide the role of the healer.
For group healing, you should only use "Radiating Regeneration" and not "Echoing Vigor".
DPS and tanks can use just one HoT without any problems.
The penalty for having three or more HoTs is very well balanced.
"Ward Ally" will attract attention.
However, HoTs like "Radiating Regeneration" should not stack.
You don't want to accidentally receive two HoTs from another player.
Other morphs, like "Echoing Vigor" and "Resolving Vigor", should not stack.

Teeba_Shei · January 13

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

Care to actually engage in the conversation? This impacts normal players and small scalers a lot more than ball groups. Ball groups can play around this healing nerf. Small scale is DEAD now.

It also forces a meta of running 12 players. If you enjoy 8 man groups then you are nerfed just as heavily as a group of 12.

Artisian0001 · January 13

master_vanargand wrote: »

Great.
What this means is that in 4v4, you should decide the role of the healer.
For group healing, you should only use "Radiating Regeneration" and not "Echoing Vigor".
DPS and tanks can use just one HoT without any problems.
The penalty for having three or more HoTs is very well balanced.
"Ward Ally" will attract attention.
However, HoTs like "Radiating Regeneration" should not stack.
You don't want to accidentally receive two HoTs from another player.
Other morphs, like "Echoing Vigor" and "Resolving Vigor", should not stack.

Do you think a 4 man group shouldn't be able to heal each other with HoTs at all, the DPS should only be doing DPS? I get that a lot of people on the forums are unskilled at PvP and think tanks should stand still and hold block, DPS players should only deal damage and never heal, but why are people so obsessed with playing poorly and making others play poorly as well? Good players heal each other when they are under pressure and deal damage when they see a window too.

MincMincMinc · January 13

The problem is that for zos to properly fix heal stacking they would have to hard recode all the skills in pvp to not stack effects again. Which is possible with the new vengeance systems allowing them to make PvE and PvP versions of skills.

Do we think zos would rather recode all the skills in the game......or slap on a simple blanket "fix" through battlespirit?

There are plenty of other fixes too like we could have hots purge themselves off if they tick at full health. This would drastically help cull unnecessary calculations on the server.

We could change group sets to incentivize group healers to use less massive aoe over time skills that lag the server. For instance require group healers to use aimed single target skills.

Erissime · January 13

The main issue of Cyrodiil nowdays are the playstyles enabled overimte by the game itself. When I first joined Cyrodiil, I found a place of freedom, in which everyone brings what they have, and fight together as an alliance for a purpose ( campaign results). Groups were merely 24 random people, among which maybe some friends, simply grouping to go together somewhere for a purpose (take an objective, help their alliance, fight along side each other). It was because of ballgroups that the original nr of grouping in Cyrodiil was reduced.

Nowdays we have so called "organized groups" from 4 to 12, functioning exactly like trial groups - and I do not mean in terms of what they wear or what they do - no, they are indeed very pvp organized. But the mentality of these groups is 100% driven by said trial groups. They even have schedules for when to play together. Fine and well - for them. Some are even decent enough to admit their playstyle is special, and only fight other balls, but the majority - for now it's a well-spread trend - would just run over anyone still daring to play freely. Pretty sure there are special requirements to be in any of these groups - exactly like in "serious trial groups". And the sad part? I see nowdays they are even reffered to as "groups" - simply. As if that is the only variety of groups existing in Cyrodiil.

And no it is not normal even for 4 organized ppl to be able to wipe an entire group of randoms ( 12 or more), just because they live longer, organize among each other and can work together. It is normal to be better - yes, but not to this extent! Mainly because they live longer to do their thing enough to achieve such results. And for anyone complaining about burst-kills only? That's exactly how balls and groups kill. Burst- kills. Just organized. Stacking together ultimates and synergies. All in one burst. It's still burst x 4 plus ( however many they are).

I'll take anything helping downgrade these types of groups. And if complaints arise? Consider the spread-amount of this trend which led to this situation to begin with. For a free Cyrodiil!

ArctosCethlenn · January 13

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

It doesn't matter if someone plays in a ball or not if everyone with a pulse can see that the nerf hits everyone in all forms of pvp, from solos to small groups to zergs to balls.

something like adjusted tick = tick*1/sqrt(#echos)

assuming a tick tooltip of 1k for simple numbers

1 echo: 1000 per tick
2 echoes: 1/sqrt(2) = 0.707 multiplier to each echo = 707 per tick from each echo, 1414 total healing per tick
3 echoes: 1/sqrt(3) = 0.577 multiplier to each echo = 577 per tick from each echo, 1731 total HpT
4 echoes: 1/sqrt(4) = 0.5 multiplier to each echo = 500 per tick from each echo, 2000 total HpT (vs 4k live version)
12 echoes: 1/sqrt(12) = 0.288 multiplier to each echo = 288 per tick from each echo, 3464 total HpT (vs 12k live version)
and so on, and the same applied to other stackable hots (radiating, sets, scribing, funnel health)

the benefit per each new echo cast is reduced so eventually you hit a point where its not worth the resources vs another heal, but you're never in a situation where someone else healing you reduces your total healing taken.

Artisian0001 · January 13

Erissime wrote: »

The main issue of Cyrodiil nowdays are the playstyles enabled overimte by the game itself. When I first joined Cyrodiil, I found a place of freedom, in which everyone brings what they have, and fight together as an alliance for a purpose ( campaign results). Groups were merely 24 random people, among which maybe some friends, simply grouping to go together somewhere for a purpose (take an objective, help their alliance, fight along side each other). It was because of ballgroups that the original nr of grouping in Cyrodiil was reduced.

Nowdays we have so called "organized groups" from 4 to 12, functioning exactly like trial groups - and I do not mean in terms of what they wear or what they do - no, they are indeed very pvp organized. But the mentality of these groups is 100% driven by said trial groups. They even have schedules for when to play together. Fine and well - for them. Some are even decent enough to admit their playstyle is special, and only fight other balls, but the majority - for now it's a well-spread trend - would just run over anyone still daring to play freely. Pretty sure there are special requirements to be in any of these groups - exactly like in "serious trial groups". And the sad part? I see nowdays they are even reffered to as "groups" - simply. As if that is the only variety of groups existing in Cyrodiil.

I'll take anything helping downgrade these types of groups. And if complaints arise? Consider the spread-amount of this trend which led to this situation to begin with. For a free Cyrodiil!

I don't know what reality you are claiming to live in, but going back to the first year of cyro isn't the right play. If you think it is, like has already been said before, just stick to vengeance because ESO GH is not for you. Even when 24 man groups existed, for the VAST MAJORITY of ESO's life, these groups have been coordinated with sets, playstyles, healers, purge, etc. Why people want to devolve is beyond me.

Teeba_Shei · January 13

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

It doesn't matter if someone plays in a ball or not if everyone with a pulse can see that the nerf hits everyone in all forms of pvp, from solos to small groups to zergs to balls.

something like final tick = tick*1/sqrt(#echos)

assuming a tick tooltip of 1k for simple numbers

1 echo: 1000 per tick
2 echoes: 1/sqrt(2) = 0.707 multiplier to each echo = 707 per tick from each echo, 1414 total healing per tick
3 echoes: 1/sqrt(3) = 0.577 multiplier to each echo = 577 per tick from each echo, 1731 total HpT
4 echoes: 1/sqrt(4) = 0.5 multiplier to each echo = 500 per tick from each echo, 2000 total HpT (vs 4k live version
12 echoes: 1/sqrt(12) = 0.288 multiplier to each echo = 288 per tick from each echo, 3464 total HpT (vs 12k live version)
and so on, and the same applied to other stackable hots (radiating, sets, scribing, funnel health)

the benefit per each new echo cast is reduced so eventually you hit a point where its not worth the resources vs another heal, but you're never in a situation where someone else healing you reduces your total healing taken.

Cyrodiil is already extremely laggy at prime time. You could probably crash the server if the game had to recalculate the healing per hot stack.

Artisian0001 · January 13

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

It doesn't matter if someone plays in a ball or not if everyone with a pulse can see that the nerf hits everyone in all forms of pvp, from solos to small groups to zergs to balls.

something like adjusted tick = tick*1/sqrt(#echos)

assuming a tick tooltip of 1k for simple numbers

1 echo: 1000 per tick
2 echoes: 1/sqrt(2) = 0.707 multiplier to each echo = 707 per tick from each echo, 1414 total healing per tick
3 echoes: 1/sqrt(3) = 0.577 multiplier to each echo = 577 per tick from each echo, 1731 total HpT
4 echoes: 1/sqrt(4) = 0.5 multiplier to each echo = 500 per tick from each echo, 2000 total HpT (vs 4k live version)
12 echoes: 1/sqrt(12) = 0.288 multiplier to each echo = 288 per tick from each echo, 3464 total HpT (vs 12k live version)
and so on, and the same applied to other stackable hots (radiating, sets, scribing, funnel health)

the benefit per each new echo cast is reduced so eventually you hit a point where its not worth the resources vs another heal, but you're never in a situation where someone else healing you reduces your total healing taken.

Lag simulator. Just make it a flat 10% on groups above 6 to start and adjust as needed.

Lagzee · January 13

shields are also another massive issue with ball groups. Its not just healing anymore since subclassing and scribing. I mean shields have always been a thing in ball groups but nothing like it is now. Like 12 people stacking contingencys shield, or bone armor, or whatever. I just dont understand why these effects are stackable like this.

The effect should just fall off when its put on someone that already has it, or replace it. And if you dont want randoms to replace your heal then give people the option to only heal/get healed, or shielded, by their group, when they are in a group. When not in a group, they can heal whoever.

You could still get multiple shields on 1 player, in a group setting, without letting people stack 12 of them. These groups are running around with 50k resist, 8k+ weapon damage, health bars completely shielded, constant hots going off, basically unkillable, all while causing performance to drop. Subclassing and scribing has changed ball grouping and zos needs to adapt to these changes.

Whether its shields or HoTs/healing. It is all part of the problem, and why these groups are unkillable, and why performance gets so abysmal when they around.

@ZOS_Kevin

Turtle_Bot · January 13

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

Interesting isn't it. Even the exact same deflecting comments are appearing all over again, just like they did during the debates regarding Azureblight countering ball groups in PvP. 🤔

ArctosCethlenn · January 13

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

It doesn't matter if someone plays in a ball or not if everyone with a pulse can see that the nerf hits everyone in all forms of pvp, from solos to small groups to zergs to balls.

something like final tick = tick*1/sqrt(#echos)

assuming a tick tooltip of 1k for simple numbers

1 echo: 1000 per tick
2 echoes: 1/sqrt(2) = 0.707 multiplier to each echo = 707 per tick from each echo, 1414 total healing per tick
3 echoes: 1/sqrt(3) = 0.577 multiplier to each echo = 577 per tick from each echo, 1731 total HpT
4 echoes: 1/sqrt(4) = 0.5 multiplier to each echo = 500 per tick from each echo, 2000 total HpT (vs 4k live version
12 echoes: 1/sqrt(12) = 0.288 multiplier to each echo = 288 per tick from each echo, 3464 total HpT (vs 12k live version)
and so on, and the same applied to other stackable hots (radiating, sets, scribing, funnel health)

the benefit per each new echo cast is reduced so eventually you hit a point where its not worth the resources vs another heal, but you're never in a situation where someone else healing you reduces your total healing taken.

Cyrodiil is already extremely laggy at prime time. You could probably crash the server if the game had to recalculate the healing per hot stack.

So you instead consolidate it into a single hot that ticks for the final total per two seconds rather than 12 small ticks per two seconds, but the game *already* has to constantly recalculate healing from effects like defiles and vitality

Erissime · January 13

Artisian0001 wrote: »

I don't know what reality you are claiming to live in, but going back to the first year of cyro isn't the right play. If you think it is, like has already been said before, just stick to vengeance because ESO GH is not for you. Even when 24 man groups existed, for the VAST MAJORITY of ESO's life, these groups have been coordinated with sets, playstyles, healers, purge, etc. Why people want to devolve is beyond me.

The actual reality, in which a person joins a game to have fun and enjoy what free-time one wills to spend on it. And maybe not have a second job in which one must present the self at a certain hour with a certain setup in order to work with a number of strangers just like having a second job ... in ... a game. Basic coordonation is one thing. Strict rules imposed by strict playstyles to the point of schedules and dictated builds by the overal setup of the group, quite another. And again - I am not against this playstyle for those who find it suitable for themselves. I just disagree with the will of generalizing it and imposing it over everyone else.

Radiate77 · January 13

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

Interesting isn't it. Even the exact same deflecting comments are appearing all over again, just like they did during the debates regarding Azureblight countering ball groups in PvP. 🤔

I haven’t played in a Ball Group in years and I’m saying that this change needs to cook a bit longer.

Those “ball group players” I’m seeing referenced have offered great alternatives that solve the problem for others, I have seen MANY great answers to this problem in this thread alone.

Now there’s no denying that the direction of this change is good, but we also can’t pretend that a solo player won’t run into that new 50% reduction when they go for their burst heal using Living Death, Restoring Light, Green Balance, our fancy new Ardent Flame, and/or any of our skill lines that give even one sticky HoT, irregardless of how small that value is.

Do not discount how horrible of a feeling it will be when you die in PvP because of someone tagging you with Radiating Regeneration.

Artisian0001 · January 13

Erissime wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

I don't know what reality you are claiming to live in, but going back to the first year of cyro isn't the right play. If you think it is, like has already been said before, just stick to vengeance because ESO GH is not for you. Even when 24 man groups existed, for the VAST MAJORITY of ESO's life, these groups have been coordinated with sets, playstyles, healers, purge, etc. Why people want to devolve is beyond me.

The actual reality, in which a person joins a game to have fun and enjoy what free-time one wills to spend on it. And maybe not have a second job in which one must present the self at a certain hour with a certain setup in order to work with a number of strangers just like having a second job ... in ... a game. Basic coordonation is one thing. Strict rules imposed by strict playstyles to the point of schedules and dictated builds by the overal setup of the group, quite another.

Who is making you join a group? Nobody. Do exactly what you want, but cyro has been this way for the majority of it's existence. If you don't want to play in a group go play vengeance or just play solo. What is this fake narrative that you are being forced into a group. I also know plenty of people that just play together when everyone is off work at a random time. You can make things up to push your narrative but it just looks silly when you say you are being forced into a second job by grouping at a specific time when you can just....not do that.

Turtle_Bot · January 13

Radiate77 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

Interesting isn't it. Even the exact same deflecting comments are appearing all over again, just like they did during the debates regarding Azureblight countering ball groups in PvP. 🤔

I haven’t played in a Ball Group in years and I’m saying that this change needs to cook a bit longer.

Those “ball group players” I’m seeing referenced have offered great alternatives that solve the problem for others, I have seen MANY great answers to this problem in this thread alone.

Now there’s no denying that the direction of this change is good, but we also can’t pretend that a solo player won’t run into that new 50% reduction when they go for their burst heal using Living Death, Restoring Light, Green Balance, our fancy new Ardent Flame, and/or any of our skill lines that give even one sticky HoT, irregardless of how small that value is.

Do not discount how horrible of a feeling it will be when you die in PvP because of someone tagging you with Radiating Regeneration.

Don't get me wrong, there have been plenty of good suggestions put forward, I even put forward some myself, but I (and the person I directly replied to) were referring more to some comments using the same "complaints" we saw in the past regarding Azureblight that were being made in direct reply to my suggested adjustments to the flat 50% nerf to healing ZOS has put forward.

Edit to update for edit of comment being replied to:

I already have stated in my original comment my very real concerns with the flat 50% nerf to all healing taken when tagged by a random 3rd HoT.

Erissime · January 13

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Erissime wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

I don't know what reality you are claiming to live in, but going back to the first year of cyro isn't the right play. If you think it is, like has already been said before, just stick to vengeance because ESO GH is not for you. Even when 24 man groups existed, for the VAST MAJORITY of ESO's life, these groups have been coordinated with sets, playstyles, healers, purge, etc. Why people want to devolve is beyond me.

The actual reality, in which a person joins a game to have fun and enjoy what free-time one wills to spend on it. And maybe not have a second job in which one must present the self at a certain hour with a certain setup in order to work with a number of strangers just like having a second job ... in ... a game. Basic coordonation is one thing. Strict rules imposed by strict playstyles to the point of schedules and dictated builds by the overal setup of the group, quite another.

Who is making you join a group? Nobody. Do exactly what you want, but cyro has been this way for the majority of it's existence. If you don't want to play in a group go play vengeance.

Once more - a group is not the same with a ballgroup. I have played in plenty of normal groups, and we have all enjoyed and connected and got things done. Ballgroups are what I said - and this level of missconception which feels precisely like imposing one over the other, as if ballgroups are the only groups into existence is the bothersome attitude. Which is what the problem ultimately is no? Attitude. For balls and any other form of play is much welcome as it should - provided they stick to their lane. Go GvG if you're a ball. Find your own type of playstyle to play against. Don't run over normal groups, or solo players even. Because in the end that is gamebreaking for the others, and sadly nobody considers the ethical side of such behaviour, but it is against TOS. 12 people harrasing an entire faction? Scroll baiting? And other toxic behaviours ballgroups displayed over time? Just because they can? And they can because yes they are better organized, more strict about things, and good for them. In stead of being admired though - as they should, they are disliked. Therefore their power needs be diminished.

Also this is not about me - personally. I never said "being forced into myself". I merely stated the necessary rules to be part of such a group, and how they may feel for those of us who simply refuse to play a game under such conditions, because it feels like a second job. Good for those who can - the behaviour and attempt to make it pass as norm is the problem. Not the playstyle.

YandereGirlfriend · January 13

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

Interesting isn't it. Even the exact same deflecting comments are appearing all over again, just like they did during the debates regarding Azureblight countering ball groups in PvP. 🤔

And yet here I am out here calling directly for sticky HOTs to not stack with each other.

Because I am focused on the overall health of the game mode, inclusive of all players, not some simplistic worldview where anything that theoretically harms ballgroups is good no matter the cost to the rest of the game.

The proposed change is an abomination. That is also the overwhelming consensus of this thread, encompassing the comments of ballgroupers, small-scalers, and solo players alike.

dcrush · January 13

This proposal almost feels like it’s deliberately terrible so that it can be used to manufacture consent for a less severe nerf.

As someone who plays in Cyrodiil in a group (as a healer even) I agree that there needs to be a nerf to healing in groups, it’s overpowered right now. But this… this is not it. This will affect small groups and solo players way more and, as many have already mentioned, will just be an incentive for trolls to spam radiating regen to weaken other players while at the same time well-meaning solo players will get chewed out by their own faction.

I think the approach should be to limit the stacking of the same skill. When running around in a group I will often have multiple echoing vigors and radiating regens on me at the same time. Limit that amount (and maybe prioritize heals coming from inside your group to prevent trolling) and it will impact heal stacking in groups in a way that does not punish solo players or group players as much as the current proposal.

Teeba_Shei · January 13

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

Interesting isn't it. Even the exact same deflecting comments are appearing all over again, just like they did during the debates regarding Azureblight countering ball groups in PvP. 🤔

I didn't mind azureblight. It was a ton of fun, but it was overall unhealthy for the game. This is not fun or healthy.

Artisian0001 · January 13

Erissime wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Erissime wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

I don't know what reality you are claiming to live in, but going back to the first year of cyro isn't the right play. If you think it is, like has already been said before, just stick to vengeance because ESO GH is not for you. Even when 24 man groups existed, for the VAST MAJORITY of ESO's life, these groups have been coordinated with sets, playstyles, healers, purge, etc. Why people want to devolve is beyond me.

The actual reality, in which a person joins a game to have fun and enjoy what free-time one wills to spend on it. And maybe not have a second job in which one must present the self at a certain hour with a certain setup in order to work with a number of strangers just like having a second job ... in ... a game. Basic coordonation is one thing. Strict rules imposed by strict playstyles to the point of schedules and dictated builds by the overal setup of the group, quite another.

Who is making you join a group? Nobody. Do exactly what you want, but cyro has been this way for the majority of it's existence. If you don't want to play in a group go play vengeance.

Once more - a group is not the same with a ballgroup. I have played in plenty of normal groups, and we have all enjoyed and connected and got things done. Ballgroups are what I said - and this level of missconception which feels precisely like imposing one over the other, as if ballgroups are the only groups into existence is the bothersome attitude. Which is what the problem ultimately is no? Attitude. For balls and any other form of play is much welcome as it should - provided they stick to their lane. Go GvG if you're a ball. Find your own type of playstyle to play against. Don't run over normal groups, or solo players even. Because in the end that is gamebreaking for the others, and sadly nobody considers the ethical side of such behaviour, but it is against TOS. 12 people harrasing an entire faction? Scroll baiting? And other toxic behaviours ballgroups displayed over time? Just because they can? And they can because yes they are better organized, more strict about things, and good for them. In stead of being admired though - as they should, they are disliked. Therefore their power needs be diminished.

You can fight over semantics all you want, you don't define what a group or ballgroup is and even if you did, once again, nobody is forcing you into either. You are claiming things are against TOS that aren't. What are you even trying to argue? People like you give discussion a bad name. You have no understanding of the TOS if you think a ballgroup running down smaller groups or solo players is against TOS. Also, your rational is "In stead of being admired though - as they should, they are disliked. Therefore their power needs be diminished." This form of logic is the weirdest thing I have ever read. By your logic if a large group dislikes a smaller group, their power be diminished. That would literally be justifying discrimination lol

Turtle_Bot · January 13

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Crazy how the developers want vengeance to work so badly they are actively making changes to kill the good version of cyrodiil.

This looks like a good change. I've noticed several people complaining in this thread also play in a ballgroup what a coincidence. Current version of cyrodiil isn't good, it's full of unkillable 12 man groups farming pvers at a keep for hours until they get bored and chasing down solo players.

Interesting isn't it. Even the exact same deflecting comments are appearing all over again, just like they did during the debates regarding Azureblight countering ball groups in PvP. 🤔

And yet here I am out here calling directly for sticky HOTs to not stack with each other.

Because I am focused on the overall health of the game mode, inclusive of all players, not some simplistic worldview where anything that theoretically harms ballgroups is good no matter the cost to the rest of the game.

The proposed change is an abomination. That is also the overwhelming consensus of this thread, encompassing the comments of ballgroupers, small-scalers, and solo players alike.

Before you go unfairly chastising someone who is simply posting an observation, I would suggest to scroll up and read my original post regarding ZOS proposed 50% nerf.

Here it is for convenience:

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just chatted with the combat team. For those who think this change needs more work, we’re passing this feedback on so our teams can iterate on this. Please make sure to clearly express your feedback so we can take it into account during adjustments.

@ZOS_Kevin (A bit late in this thread so hopefully it still gets seen) There are 2 ways to go about this, already mentioned by others but I will add my voice to this as well.

1. Make this reduction specifically only apply to heals that you receive from other players, not those you cast yourself.
2. Make this reduction only apply to healing over time effects and damage shields, not to burst heals.

Ideally it would be some combination of both of these adjustments to the proposed healing nerf where it only applies to healing over time effects and those that are cast by other players, but that might have a significant impact on server performance with the amount of check this could require.

The main reasons I have for these adjustments to the nerf are:
1. Burst heals (i.e. reactive defense) are a necessary skill expression to have in any combat game, while healing over time or damage shields (i.e. passive defense) always needs limitations to prevent it being too powerful.
2. As has been mentioned previously as well, there is a very high chance for players so inclined to just go around trolling other players (especially in PvP) spamming very weak heal over time effects to push other players over this threshold, effectively deleting all of their healing and deleting the ability for them to defend themselves.
3. Healers will basically be detrimental to have since they will reduce everyone's healing massively instead of actually healing their allies.
4. It is just too easy for someone to randomly run past and without even thinking cast a heal over time ability that happens to hit an ally that pushes said ally over that threshold killing all healing that ally will receive.

RaidingTraiding · January 13

This "nerf" is going to hurt everyone more than it will hurt the problem ball groups. They have so much shield stacking, you're not likely every going to get close to touching their health bars anyways. Meanwhile lower skilled groups and pugs will suffer since they can no only benefit from 3 hots. I remember someone taking logs in a random pug group once, and their top sources of healing were echoing vigors and radiatings. There are a handful of people who like pug healing, and this is going to hurt. All the while the ball groups will be running around with 50k shields on not caring about the changes and having an easier time killing pugs. You want to really balance groups? Don't just nerf hots, you need to address the shield stacking problem as well.

Ostonoha · January 13

Can’t wait for ball groups to adjust (as they always do) by stacking as much shielding as possible and finding any and all heals that don’t count towards this debuff so they keep survival strong and the pug Zergs get a 50% heal debuff due to no coordination of skills leading to over cross healing debuffing themselves.

This is clearly a well thought out plan by ZOS. Only people who have actual experience in PvP could come up with such a concept.

I have to seriously ask. Do you people actually PvP? At this point I’m convinced they don’t as all their “fixes” are terrible and or backfire. Really at this point. ZOS should spend time with their people actually playing in eso pvp groups and learn all sides. Spend one month with some “zerg” guilds. See what they do. (No offense on the name just can’t think of what else to say) 1 month playing with small scalers. 1 month in a ball group. Get an idea of what’s going on instead of what appears to just be throwing darts at a board.