PTS Update 49 - Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Dragonknight

ZOS_Kevin · January 12

This is the official feedback thread for Combat Refresh changes for the Dragonknight coming in Update 49. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

Do the refreshed abilities correctly portray the mechanics of the ability?
Are there any key DK changes that you enjoyed?
Are there any key DK changes that did not feel great?
Is there anything else you would like to share about the DK changes?

festegios · January 12

Why is the new dragon breath channeled skill on the ‘tank’ line?

Perhaps i misread, but i thought the point was to move skills to synergies better with each other?

MurkyWetWolf198 · January 12

festegios wrote: »

Why is the new dragon breath channeled skill on the ‘tank’ line?

Perhaps i misread, but i thought the point was to move skills to synergies better with each other?

They are going away from dedicated role skill lines. This will be done for all class skill lines in theory, and should make subclassing less overwhelmingly powerful

MurkyWetWolf198 · January 12

Biggest pain points:
Give us a DD morph of Standard and Eruption
Avalanche needs more Juice (and a non-ice feeling name)
Need crit damage somewhere in these passives
Buff Stagger

Tariq9898 · January 12

- Reverse the changes to Standard of Might.
- Make Shifting standard the group support ult.

This ensures that both ults will be more widely used and will each have a stronger identity. Each morph will have more value in solo and group content and for different play styles and roles. In addition, being able to relocate the Shifting standard is more beneficial for group play anyways. Right now, Shifting is barely used, if at all. This is a great opportunity to reinvigorate it. Plus it feels bad to remove a huge staple of the DK playstyle since launch, which is Might being the damage ult.

Skinny Cheeks and other content creators such as Lucht, Charles have all expressed similar things about this. Video timestamp: 3:40.

https://youtu.be/swLoAXucgbQ?si=vPIQApNWACA3eSZO

Personofsecrets · January 12

Context: I have played DK tank only since I started playing the game over a decade ago. I have nearly 700 days of slash played time. This is to say that 95% of the time I am on one specific DK tank character. Most of the content that I enjoy would be Trials, especially trifecta progressions, and dungeons.

There are certain mechanics, one could say part of the class identity, that I've enjoyed for this stretch of time. Subclassing actually didn't upend these mecanics or, more importantly, way of playing. Rather, because DK has gotten mostly nerfed and left behind since the start of the game, subclassing actually made me feel like I could still do Dragonknight things that I liked to do with my character, but also have some other tools that my character normally didn't have access to due to being left behind. And now none of the skill lines on DK will be able to give me all Earthen Heart used to.

With the proposed changes, in particular the moving of the battle roar passive, moving minor brutality out of mountains blessing, and heavy handed change to helping hands (no, I absolutely do not want to heavy attack for stamina when I have been getting stamina back in exchange for using my skills for years), I feel like the play style which I have enjoyed for a decade is becoming stolen from me.

I see these changes as over all nerfs that not only invalidate my long-time enjoyed playstyle, but also as potentially invalidating the only character that I have ever played as a whole.

I hate these changes and am deeply saddened by them. Now I too have to say that sub classing is causing a class identity problem because the designer response to subclassing now seems to be ripping my class apart. Apparently identity doesn't matter so much if so many changes to the Dragonknight, especially ones that are functional nerfs or ones that change decade old ways of enjoying Dragonknight skills, can just come out of nowhere and be foisted upon the players who don't want them.

There have been a few updates that players recall due to large changes to the game and this will be the one that I remember as the worst update in the history of ESO due to the impact that I've outlined here. That is a direct impact to the way that I have enjoyed playing forever.

C_Inside · January 12

I've only seen the new animations so far. Haven't tested how DK actually plays as I'm waiting for the PTS to switch to EU. My immediate first thoughts are that you went way too far with the bass and distortion on most of the sound effects. They all sound way too artificial and out of place compared to the rest of ESO's sound scape. Like, compare an explosion from say, Xalvaaka in Rockgrove to an explosion from the DK skills. The DK ones sound like they're straight up from a different game. Whip and Hearthfire are the worst examples of this imo. Whip in particular annoys me the most since that's a spammable so you'll be hearing it all the time.

Also, I just want to point out that it's really weird how artificial and over the top DK now sounds when fire is supposed to be one of nature's primal elements.

Overall I really don't like what you did with the sound. Except for Searing Strike. That one actually sounds nice and coincidentally, it's one where the bass and distortion weren't overdone.

Shadesofkin · January 12

I ran my MagickaDK non subclassing build in against of the harder world bosses. Overall, I would say things are good.

I love the Dragon breath, but I feel like the mechanics of seething fury now belong with Breath over whip. I found myself wanting to spam whip more and use Breath at the end of the rotation, it just feels like that should get some build up to buff it.
Besides that it's a fantastic animation, and it feels punchy.

Claws animations are reflective of what I think a claw should look like, but they could stand to be just a tad "wider" like each claw mark should be thicker, they feel just a little thin.

Standard not being the primary damage force is a wild choice, Id like to see us bring back slotting bonuses to DoTs for the non-damage standards.

Radiate77 · January 12

Tariq9898 wrote: »

- Reverse the changes to Standard of Might.
- Make Shifting standard the group support ult.

Keep Shifting Standard as is, it still outperforms Destruction Staff ultimate for an AoE damage ultimate, there is no need to ruin something other people enjoy to capitulate to the “PvE only” mob.

Josh3133 · January 12

Stamina return through obsidian shield + helping hands is a core part of DK tanking. Why not add the stamina return to the igneous shield morph and change the new passive to something useful like crit damage for DD’s

ssewallb14_ESO · January 12

Earthen heart is.. spicy for solo PvE. Really nice to have an alternative to Storm Calling here for a defense/offense mix type skill line.

Shadesofkin · January 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

- Reverse the changes to Standard of Might.
- Make Shifting standard the group support ult.

Keep Shifting Standard as is, it still outperforms Destruction Staff ultimate for an AoE damage ultimate, there is no need to ruin something other people enjoy to capitulate to the “PvE only” mob.

I think I agree. I'm literally a MagDK main without subclassing, and while I would like to see the non damage standard get a slot bonus so PvE can find it useful, shifting isn't too bad. I get the ult gen bump and I get to use damage with it.

Personofsecrets · January 12

Tariq9898 wrote: »

- Reverse the changes to Standard of Might.
- Make Shifting standard the group support ult.

This ensures that both ults will be more widely used and will each have a stronger identity. Each morph will have more value in solo and group content and for different play styles and roles. In addition, being able to relocate the Shifting standard is more beneficial for group play anyways. Right now, Shifting is barely used, if at all. This is a great opportunity to reinvigorate it. Plus it feels bad to remove a huge staple of the DK playstyle since launch, which is Might being the damage ult.

Skinny Cheeks and other content creators such as Lucht, Charles have all expressed similar things about this. Video timestamp: 3:40.

https://youtu.be/swLoAXucgbQ?si=vPIQApNWACA3eSZO

I know that this suggestion is way too cool for the designers to approve, but standard of might should be for huge amounts of damage, standard of support should be a group buff, and BOTH standards should be able to be shifted.

Radiate77 · January 12

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

- Reverse the changes to Standard of Might.
- Make Shifting standard the group support ult.

This ensures that both ults will be more widely used and will each have a stronger identity. Each morph will have more value in solo and group content and for different play styles and roles. In addition, being able to relocate the Shifting standard is more beneficial for group play anyways. Right now, Shifting is barely used, if at all. This is a great opportunity to reinvigorate it. Plus it feels bad to remove a huge staple of the DK playstyle since launch, which is Might being the damage ult.

Skinny Cheeks and other content creators such as Lucht, Charles have all expressed similar things about this. Video timestamp: 3:40.

https://youtu.be/swLoAXucgbQ?si=vPIQApNWACA3eSZO

BOTH standards should be able to be shifted.

If this was the path taken, I would be more hesitant to push back on a suggested Shifting change.

That said, Take Flight is the new Standard of Might, and any changes made to Standard, would need to keep this in mind otherwise Take Flight would be once again taking a back seat in PvE.

Tariq9898 · January 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

- Reverse the changes to Standard of Might.
- Make Shifting standard the group support ult.

This ensures that both ults will be more widely used and will each have a stronger identity. Each morph will have more value in solo and group content and for different play styles and roles. In addition, being able to relocate the Shifting standard is more beneficial for group play anyways. Right now, Shifting is barely used, if at all. This is a great opportunity to reinvigorate it. Plus it feels bad to remove a huge staple of the DK playstyle since launch, which is Might being the damage ult.

Skinny Cheeks and other content creators such as Lucht, Charles have all expressed similar things about this. Video timestamp: 3:40.

https://youtu.be/swLoAXucgbQ?si=vPIQApNWACA3eSZO

BOTH standards should be able to be shifted.

If this was the path taken, I would be more hesitant to push back on a suggested Shifting change.

That said, Take Flight is the new Standard of Might, and any changes made to Standard, would need to keep this in mind otherwise Take Flight would be once again taking a back seat in PvE.

That’s fine, Take Flight will have its own niche uses such as casting within a group support ult (Might in the pts) and stacking those benefits. It also has a much shorter cooldown whilst offering a vastly different gameplay mechanic/experience for certain bosses.

As of right now, Shifting is barely used and that’s gonna stay that way unless they make it a group support ult. Better to make both Might and Shifting viable so that way we have more options.

Wup_sa · January 12

This is feedback off the rework coming from PvP.

1. (Visual and animation cancel)
I really do not like the animations. Especially coag, armor buff, flames of oblivion and searing strike. The visual is ugly, but more of a problem is that due to the longer animation they are harder to bash cancel which is a very bad thing. It allows the opponent to heal to full hp in very short window.

2. (Main offense)
Dk still very much lacks damage when up against subclass builds. The passives do not cover nearly enough damage and now that the molten whip playstyle is killed with the removal of FoO (flames of oblivion), you are forced to spam DOTs or other dk skills that are not meant to be spammed due to high cost.

Flame lash morph was not buffed in anyway in terms of damage and it is more reliable and sustain friendly atm. Lash would need huge buffs to bring it on par with other playstyles (damage and burst with offbalance).

On top of those changes petrify and it morphs have became one of the most useless stuns now that it can be dodged. It needs to be instant, otherwise there is too much counterplay and it offers zero value and will never be slotted by anyone.

3. (Skill and passive changes)
Most of the skill and passive changes were totally useless. You took each passive put it in a slot machine and saw which skill line it landed to. Why is armor buff in the healing tree? Why did everything that made earthenheart even viable got put into draconic power? Etc. In summary very underwhelming changes.

4. (Overall feedback)
I understand that you cannot take some new visuals out like fiery breath due to range changes, but please allow us to use things like old armor buff and make animations cancelable with a bash like you can do with every dks ability on live. There's a part of the playerbase who would be very happy with these minor changes.

The passives need serous buffing. The fact that combustion is still more useless than it was in 2020 (it was concidered the weakest at the time) speaks volumes. Do not be afraid to give pure classes enough damage and sustain to be on par with subclassed builds. Instead you could take away strenght from subclassed builds with passives like new battle roar.

Overall i was expecting a much better rework for the class that I've mained for too long that is healthy and a lot of these changes push me away from the class whose play style i used to enjoy. It leaves a bit sour taste in my mouth after the rework was so hyped and nothing really changed in the end aside from animations for PvP. The new engulfing flames might make some nasty acuity corossive build for tight areas, but dk is simply not the same for me without the whip.

Radiate77 · January 12

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

- Reverse the changes to Standard of Might.
- Make Shifting standard the group support ult.

This ensures that both ults will be more widely used and will each have a stronger identity. Each morph will have more value in solo and group content and for different play styles and roles. In addition, being able to relocate the Shifting standard is more beneficial for group play anyways. Right now, Shifting is barely used, if at all. This is a great opportunity to reinvigorate it. Plus it feels bad to remove a huge staple of the DK playstyle since launch, which is Might being the damage ult.

Skinny Cheeks and other content creators such as Lucht, Charles have all expressed similar things about this. Video timestamp: 3:40.

https://youtu.be/swLoAXucgbQ?si=vPIQApNWACA3eSZO

BOTH standards should be able to be shifted.

If this was the path taken, I would be more hesitant to push back on a suggested Shifting change.

That said, Take Flight is the new Standard of Might, and any changes made to Standard, would need to keep this in mind otherwise Take Flight would be once again taking a back seat in PvE.

That’s fine, Take Flight will have its own niche uses such as casting within a group support ult (Might in the pts) and stacking those benefits. It also has a much shorter cooldown whilst offering a vastly different gameplay mechanic/experience for certain bosses.

As of right now, Shifting is barely used and that’s gonna stay that way unless they make it a group support ult. Better to make both Might and Shifting viable so that way we have more options.

I use Shifting every day, and of course you hardly see it being used in PvE because despite Shifting Standard still being a great ultimate in PvE, Standard of Might was leagues ahead of it.

Expect to see Shifting Standard in PvE now.

MurkyWetWolf198 · January 12

I like the animations, but the skills are all bark and no bite. This new DK is just soooooo weak. Current pureclass on live is like 10-15k dps stronger

Estin · January 12

I've always mained NB, but DK was the class I learned to do hard content on. I'm talking vet trials and dungeons, both regular and HM, and 1v1/group PvP. Before getting on DK, I haven't done anything higher than normal in PvE and zerg surfing in pvp. I'm just giving this info so it's clear that my feedback is coming from an experienced DK player.

I quickly did a parse on a 3m dummy. I know PTS can be super laggy with its inputs, so I'm not going to talk about if skills didn't fire or felt like I couldn't use them. My first impressions are that everything felt smooth and snappy when weaving the skills with their new animations. This was my biggest concern about the DK changes, and confirming that the skills are still smooth to use is great news for me. I can appreciate the new sounds and animations. They don't look flashy or garish to me when actually using them. I think the teaser made them look too flashy and filled with too many effects due to the camera being zoomed all the way in as well as video edition such as increased saturation.

I didn't try out all skills, but one skill, shatterspike mantle, feels pretty weak compared to the rest of skills. Like, your character does a normal grunt upon activation, but there's no other sound effects to go with it. It feels pretty disconnected especially since it causes an AoE to go out from you. You see the ring expand out quickly, but there's nothing to go with it, or if there is, it doesn't feel impactful despite all other skills I tried having very good impactful and responsive sounds to them.

And to talk about my parse on the 3m, the last one I had saved on a 3m was a year old at 46k, but the quick one I did was at 51k, so my damage went up. I was using velothi, ansuul, and runecarvers. Pieces were mostly purple and ansuul wasn't perfected. It'll take a bit to get used to the 10s timers, but I can see it working out fine once I do. I play a MagDK with Talons in PvE, and sustain was fine with only bewitched sugar skulls and tripots, but Soul of Flame (Deep Breath) is required to sustain. It's not too much of a problem since the damage is good, and I would expect it not being necessary if I had recovery food, but to give an opinion on this skill, it should be extended to maybe 6-8 seconds so it's not constantly competing with talons which is also a 4 second skill. I could only get 1-2 whip hits in before I had to recast talons and soul of flame, and then all my other 10s dots like wall of elements, noxious breath, flames of oblivion, and venomous claw. Definitely felt more active, but I think a slight increase in the length for soul of flame can add some breathing room.

And as I predicted, corrosive armor rips. I tried leap as an ultimate, but I was parsing higher with corrosive armor. Comparing from my old parse, corrosive does more DPS than standard of might. Yeah, who cares if the penetration isn't going to be useful in PvE, the AoE dot it has does a ton of damage and that was the main reason you used standard. Any people having complaints about new standard, use corrosive. It does the same thing, only better because the AoE is centered on you instead of being in a stationary spot. In fights with a lot of movement, corrosive is the clear winner over standard's stationary aoe. Supports will be using standard to buff your corrosive damage even higher. It's much better this way imo.

Overamera · January 12

Been watching people duel dk vs dk and there is just soooo much flames pulsing around not very enjoyable to watch. Specially the new flames of oblivion. Way to much flames, id prefer more clean animations and not so much flames around.

olsborg · January 12

Corrosive seems to be the go to ultimate for pvp again, its a win button in duels on pts.

noblecron · January 12

Are the wings for protect the brood and it's morphs and ferocious leap and it's morphs be sideways?

xencthlu · January 12

Ran through normal Fungal Grotto 1 solo on my Orc stamDK, my main, for better or worse. She runs ansuuls/runecarvers. I was running only DK abilities, since it seems like that's what you were intending with storm voice and fan the flames. I had serious sustain problems. If soul of flame is intended to address recovery problems, it's not doing a very good job. The 4s duration felt extremely burdensome to juggle around in combat. Also, I think too many of DK's buffs/utility/healing abilities use magicka. Molten weapons, earthspike, dragon blood, inferno, core of flame, none of these abilities have a stamina morph. I practically bottom out my magicka with just igneous weapons and incinerate at the beginning of combat. Admittedly, I'm running dubious camoran throne, but... If I'm running a magicka food, then I might as well be running a magicka build at that point. Are DKs not intended to support stamina builds? My character even runs a staff on her back bar, I don't know how anyone would play this with two stamina weapons.

I like doing pure fire damage. I theoretically like the new animations, though I'll have to see what they look like when they're not hideously bugged.

MJallday · January 12

The only reason people would subclass into dk was because of FOO and standard

So yeah thanks for nerfing those. Guess I’ll swap it out for nightblade

gamergirldk · January 12

most morphs look visuel the same, are they planing to chance this later ?

Taylord900 · January 12

Whatever happens, please don't make the channel so strong it's a must have on a build.
There are many of us that did not ask for this slow playstyle. Templar has already been taken from me please don't do it again.
Thanks

Personofsecrets · January 12

Wup_sa wrote: »

Overall i was expecting a much better rework for the class that I've mained for too long that is healthy and a lot of these changes push me away from the class whose play style i used to enjoy. It leaves a bit sour taste in my mouth after the rework was so hyped and nothing really changed in the end aside from animations for PvP. The new engulfing flames might make some nasty acuity corossive build for tight areas, but dk is simply not the same for me without the whip.

If there was a room full of people who hated DK, I think that the changes that they would envision for the class would be pretty close to what we get with this "refresh."

Some of the final things left in the DK kit, like you mention Petrify, seems to be gettings dismantled once and for all. I doubt that I will Pure DK in PvP post update. What's left? Pyrebrand?

Overamera · January 12

New DK animations. just feels like it's flames and less detailed spells like before.

Wup_sa · January 12

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Overall i was expecting a much better rework for the class that I've mained for too long that is healthy and a lot of these changes push me away from the class whose play style i used to enjoy. It leaves a bit sour taste in my mouth after the rework was so hyped and nothing really changed in the end aside from animations for PvP. The new engulfing flames might make some nasty acuity corossive build for tight areas, but dk is simply not the same for me without the whip.

If there was a room full of people who hated DK, I think that the changes that they would envision for the class would be pretty close to what we get with this "refresh."

Some of the final things left in the DK kit, like you mention Petrify, seems to be gettings dismantled once and for all. I doubt that I will Pure DK in PvP post update. What's left? Pyrebrand?

The critisism I've given will probably fall to deaf ears with so many hyping over flashy animations with no actual clue of how the character is played effectively in high end. But can only hope some devs see it.

xylena · January 12

New Spike Armor animation is horrendous. Do not want. Put it back. Templars I now share in your pain over the Jabs animation change. The other visuals are fine, but the sfx are weak.

The mechanical changes are hard to evaluate without all 7 classes being similarly overhauled with subclassing in mind, but mostly seem like a step in the right direction.

dhoward5b14_ESO · January 12

Really dislike moving minor brutality out of Earthen Heart. If you have to move it put it in Ardent Flame instead of Draconic, as I don't see Draconic being a skill line a DK DPS is necessarily going to want. The group alternative is minor sorcery from Templar which has its own issues.

With the nerf to Stone Giant, changes in stamimna recovery, and moving minor brutality I am not sure why I'd want to be a DK tank any more. Seems to be losing identity instead of improving it from tank perspective. The only good change I see for tank (beyond healing perhaps) is moving major resolve to Earthen Heart, but that won't matter on trial tank (even many dungeon tanks) because we use Frost Cloak anyway.