Now make self-healing not effected by this, and make it apply to damage shields as well.

Moothos wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yes... as other sensible rational comments have been put forth here. This should -only- apply to Healing over time stickies AND more specifically; healing over time stickies NOT sourced by yourself but from others. This would impact the biggest offenders the most.

I think this makes a lot of sense.

Currently as this change is written, it removes some player agency because it allows another player (on your own team, who you can't kill) to reduce the effectiveness of your own heals. If this part of the equation was removed, this change would be great.

Yea exactly. And honestly when I first read it, that's what I thought. Three sticky hots = nerf to further sticky hots... perfect rational and logical. Thank you for nerfing one obnoxious aspect of ballgroups, huzzah! But then... the zos team elaboration on ALL heals incurring the 50% debuff including burst heals from yourself to yourself.... HUH? Why do I have such developed anxiety with patch notes? Absolutely WILD.

I just want to reiterate on what other people have been saying. Whatever change we get to this, it cannot be just a simple HoT number increase.

And what happens when using pale order and such? This is a bad change. The debuff should only happen while in a group.

oops my double heal return poison popped at the same time my vigor is rolling......guess im dead

The direction is not entirely bad as heal stacking is out of hand in Cyrodiil, but not in the current proposed form. The issue with healing in Cyrodiil is not the size of the healing but the stacking of hots on the characters. And the most simplest solution for this is limiting the number of stacks and not reducing the healing amount. And also it should be included to shields as well.
I think what could work well is something like this:
- a character only can have X instance of the same sticky heals or shields on them, max X vigor, max X radiating regen, and so on
- and if a character gets a X+1instance of a same healing the oldest non-self applied drops (so your own one can be kept on yourself to trigger sets etc)
- X most likely could be 2 or 3, but this should be tested in practice which works better

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I think this is a good change, and for everyone who says it's a bad change, keep in mind that they specifically said 3 or more "sticky" heals.

It'd be helpful if they defined which skills specifically count, but if it's just Echoing Vigor + Regeneration and morphs, this isn't likely to impact many people outside of coordinated ball groups. Things like the templar ritual, healing springs, burst heals won't count towards it. I'm curious if crit surge and the rune focus heal are considered sticky hots.

I think this change would be even better if they changed healing so that only people within a group can heal each other, and anyone ungrouped can heal other ungrouped people.

For this reason it is even worse. Now instead of groups spamming targetted hots, they will be spamming massive aoe ground hots.

Care to take a guess what will lag the server more?

I still remember the days where you could get a ball group to stack into a corner and spam Grand healing. With enough people you could freeze up the server and cause people to be forced logged out.

I actually think that ground based healing is far more balanced than sticky HoTs, not sure about the performance cost. So think of it this way, with sticky HoTs you can just press one button and the game decides who the heal should go to. Players can basically move wherever you want without having to worry about positioning to keep their healing. This allows coordinated groups to push and position themselves however they want without much thought, it's part of what makes them so effective.

Ground based heals create a trade off between repositioning and staying healed. When sets like Vicious Death exist, it's probably not a great idea for players to always stand close together in a ground based HoT constantly. It requires a bit more effort from the healers and the group as a whole to perform well as a group when ground based HoTs become more important.

Now you might say "well people can just reposition their ground based HoTs constantly as they move". That's true, but this is where making sure ground based HoTs cost a lot of resources to cast becomes more important. In my opinion, having to think about where your teammates may go next and making sure ground based HoTs are positioned correctly is more involved than thoughtlessly pressing an auto targeting sticky HoT. It's better for the game for both skill expression and balance.

I think the original devs understood all of this. If you think back, healing springs used to be a weak heal that you had to cast like 3 times in the same area just to get good healing over time from it. When they changed healing springs into a single stronger ground based HoT, they buffed the sticky HoTs to make sure healing was still sufficient for PvE. This was actually a pretty disastrous change because it threw healing in PvP way out of balance and made the heal stacking with sticky heals that we see today possible. This change to healing springs was literally one of the biggest reasons PvP went downhill so fast in 2019. So much that went wrong goes back to that change.

From the 5.1 Patch Notes:

Grand Healing: Converted this ability into a true AoE HoT, rather than a hybrid spammable hybrid HoT.

- Increased the duration from 3 seconds to 8 seconds, but you may only have 1 active at a time.
- Reduced the healing per tick by approximately 44%.
- Reduced cost to 2808 from 3510.

- Illustrious Healing (morph): This ability continues to increase the duration. The new duration is 9 seconds, which ranks up to 12 seconds at Rank IV. It also increases the healing of the ability per tick by 50%.

Regeneration:

- Increased the healing per tick by approximately 98%, but reduced duration to 10 seconds. It now only hits 1 ally per cast.
- Increased cost to 2700 from 2160.

- Rapid Regeneration (morph): This morph now doubles the frequency but halves the duration.

- Mutagen (morph): This morph no longer attempts to grant affected targets a burst heal and purge if they were under 20% Health after the heal triggered. It will now instead heal up to 2 additional targets in your radius, and is called Radiating Regeneration to better showcase its ability to diverge to targets.

Developer Comment: This change was done to better help healers grant high mobility targets healing with the skill, and to tone down the incredibly powerful ability to come back from the brink of death passively.

So as you can see here, Radiating Regeneration literally didn't even exist before they moved away from ground based HoTs. It used to be a skill called Mutagen and not many people used it. So the reason we are in this mess to begin with is because they moved away from ground based healing.

The solution is honestly very simple. In the same way scribed shields cannot stack, multiple instances of “sticky hots” shouldn’t be able to stack either. Echoing vigor, mutagen, skills like these NEED to just simply have a limit. They are the outliers. Ground HoT’s can’t really have a limit by design but they aren’t the problem (in terms of balance anyways. They do cause a decent amount of lag if there’s enough of them). Sticky aoe hots need a smaller target cap or just need to not be stackable. If you want to do this sort of iteration with battle spirit proposed in the pts you would need to take away cross healing as well. I don’t want people outside of my group applying hots to me if it’s going to gut my healing

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

A sweeping change this large just shows how unserious the devs are. It's actually just an insult to anyone who PvPs and plays with just 2 friends or more. Saying "oh well it's a work in progress" is a joke. You don't start from some insane position and slowly bring it to normality, it would be the other way around.

Sweeping change? To be fair I would prefer a hard cap at 3 HoTs so absolutely no HoT more than that. So for me that 50% is not even enough yet. Also that would reduce server calculations by a lot and with that lag. Its absolutely insane to me that you can stack 12 RR and 12 Vigor plus any other heal you please. And thats something people complain about since years, and now finally they address it.

50% isn't enough? Okay go play another game lol The opinion of people whose PvP consists of staring down from inside a keep sieging and dying to every other person isn't something I take serious.

I saw someone else suggest making a Major and Minor buff. This is probably the way going forward: Major and Minor buffs which increases Health Recovery by a flat amount. Kinda like how Major Courage increases damage by 430.

Sticky HoTs with smart target would apply the major/minor health recovery, while AoE ground hots and single target aimed heals scale off the caster's stats.

Stamicka wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I think this is a good change, and for everyone who says it's a bad change, keep in mind that they specifically said 3 or more "sticky" heals.

It'd be helpful if they defined which skills specifically count, but if it's just Echoing Vigor + Regeneration and morphs, this isn't likely to impact many people outside of coordinated ball groups. Things like the templar ritual, healing springs, burst heals won't count towards it. I'm curious if crit surge and the rune focus heal are considered sticky hots.

I think this change would be even better if they changed healing so that only people within a group can heal each other, and anyone ungrouped can heal other ungrouped people.

For this reason it is even worse. Now instead of groups spamming targetted hots, they will be spamming massive aoe ground hots.

Care to take a guess what will lag the server more?

I still remember the days where you could get a ball group to stack into a corner and spam Grand healing. With enough people you could freeze up the server and cause people to be forced logged out.

I actually think that ground based healing is far more balanced than sticky HoTs, not sure about the performance cost. So think of it this way, with sticky HoTs you can just press one button and the game decides who the heal should go to. Players can basically move wherever you want without having to worry about positioning to keep their healing. This allows coordinated groups to push and position themselves however they want without much thought, it's part of what makes them so effective.

Ground based heals create a trade off between repositioning and staying healed. When sets like Vicious Death exist, it's probably not a great idea for players to always stand close together in a ground based HoT constantly. It requires a bit more effort from the healers and the group as a whole to perform well as a group when ground based HoTs become more important.

Now you might say "well people can just reposition their ground based HoTs constantly as they move". That's true, but this is where making sure ground based HoTs cost a lot of resources to cast becomes more important. In my opinion, having to think about where your teammates may go next and making sure ground based HoTs are positioned correctly is more involved than thoughtlessly pressing an auto targeting sticky HoT. It's better for the game for both skill expression and balance.

I think the original devs understood all of this. If you think back, healing springs used to be a weak heal that you had to cast like 3 times in the same area just to get good healing over time from it. When they changed healing springs into a single stronger ground based HoT, they buffed the sticky HoTs to make sure healing was still sufficient for PvE. This was actually a pretty disastrous change because it threw healing in PvP way out of balance and made the heal stacking with sticky heals that we see today possible. This change to healing springs was literally one of the biggest reasons PvP went downhill so fast in 2019. So much that went wrong goes back to that change.

From the 5.1 Patch Notes:

Grand Healing: Converted this ability into a true AoE HoT, rather than a hybrid spammable hybrid HoT.

- Increased the duration from 3 seconds to 8 seconds, but you may only have 1 active at a time.
- Reduced the healing per tick by approximately 44%.
- Reduced cost to 2808 from 3510.

- Illustrious Healing (morph): This ability continues to increase the duration. The new duration is 9 seconds, which ranks up to 12 seconds at Rank IV. It also increases the healing of the ability per tick by 50%.

Regeneration:

- Increased the healing per tick by approximately 98%, but reduced duration to 10 seconds. It now only hits 1 ally per cast.
- Increased cost to 2700 from 2160.

- Rapid Regeneration (morph): This morph now doubles the frequency but halves the duration.

- Mutagen (morph): This morph no longer attempts to grant affected targets a burst heal and purge if they were under 20% Health after the heal triggered. It will now instead heal up to 2 additional targets in your radius, and is called Radiating Regeneration to better showcase its ability to diverge to targets.

Developer Comment: This change was done to better help healers grant high mobility targets healing with the skill, and to tone down the incredibly powerful ability to come back from the brink of death passively.

So as you can see here, Radiating Regeneration literally didn't even exist before they moved away from ground based HoTs. It used to be a skill called Mutagen and not many people used it. So the reason we are in this mess to begin with is because they moved away from ground based healing.

Yeah we also used to not have stacking hots and dots. So people actually had to run rapid regen and mutagen morphs. So build for build people were forced to make interesting niche choices work. Instead now we can "play how you want" except that means to be relevant we all end up playing the same generic meta playstyle with the same meta BIS morphs.

I also agree it would be better if group play revolved around more skillplay like healers actually aiming instead of all aoe smartheals or smart conal heals. I believe vengeance was actually better in that respect where a skill like breath of life had to be aimed at the target since it was a high burst heal aimed single target. Prefferably I would rather group play revolve around more ult timing, buff casting timing, positioning, synergies than a bunch of robot players with guaranteed immune builds 60k+hps running around pull bombing with sets doing all the work for you.

"highly skilled" ballgroups these days also being able to opt out of mechanics with things like snowtreaders was debated and fixed long long long ago already. Remember how much of a problem it was when groups could have a rapids spammer give them immunity and speed? I was baffled when they announced snow treaders just did it for you, zos just forgot that the whole rapids issue happened in pvp?

Snow treaders rant

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

A sweeping change this large just shows how unserious the devs are. It's actually just an insult to anyone who PvPs and plays with just 2 friends or more. Saying "oh well it's a work in progress" is a joke. You don't start from some insane position and slowly bring it to normality, it would be the other way around.

Sweeping change? To be fair I would prefer a hard cap at 3 HoTs so absolutely no HoT more than that. So for me that 50% is not even enough yet. Also that would reduce server calculations by a lot and with that lag. Its absolutely insane to me that you can stack 12 RR and 12 Vigor plus any other heal you please. And thats something people complain about since years, and now finally they address it.

50% isn't enough? Okay go play another game lol The opinion of people whose PvP consists of staring down from inside a keep sieging and dying to every other person isn't something I take serious.

Bold statement coming from someone crying about a mere healstacking nerf.

Bold statement coming from someone who think this boils down to addressing 12 people stacking vigor and RR. Reading is hard huh?

So you as a solo player are affected? You do run more than 3 HoTs plus multiple burstheals? Do you deal damage at any time?

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

A sweeping change this large just shows how unserious the devs are. It's actually just an insult to anyone who PvPs and plays with just 2 friends or more. Saying "oh well it's a work in progress" is a joke. You don't start from some insane position and slowly bring it to normality, it would be the other way around.

Sweeping change? To be fair I would prefer a hard cap at 3 HoTs so absolutely no HoT more than that. So for me that 50% is not even enough yet. Also that would reduce server calculations by a lot and with that lag. Its absolutely insane to me that you can stack 12 RR and 12 Vigor plus any other heal you please. And thats something people complain about since years, and now finally they address it.

50% isn't enough? Okay go play another game lol The opinion of people whose PvP consists of staring down from inside a keep sieging and dying to every other person isn't something I take serious.

Bold statement coming from someone crying about a mere healstacking nerf.

Except with this change stacked hots reduce ALL HEALING not only hot healing, dude. so as soon as someone throws a few hots your way your self healing, including burst healing, is halved.

That is fair and that I already mentioned in my very first post, I am speaking about the HoTs, and I am fully on board with saying there need to be another condition to stop that from happening, being "you can only be healed by groupmembers or yourself" or similar.

Also, if this goes through as-is there will 100% be bad actors who run around on alts with low stats spamming hots to deliberately cut everyone's healing. And you can't do anything about that being done by someone on your own faction while you're defending a keep.

Oh 4 people's rapid regens are broken on my buff timer for 2323523512 days.......guess ill have no heals until i log out and hop back into a 50 person que