Early Impressions on The DK Overhaul

Decimus · January 10

Some thoughts here on the DK reworks, primarily from PvP point of view:

https://youtu.be/e7oDhPKYnwg

Quick Summary:

The approach to balance subclassing by spreading out healing/damage/tankiness across more skill lines is good, hopefully we'll see a lot more of that!
Most of the ability/passive changes are good, especially Ardent Flame/Draconic Power ones.
Corrosive change is not ideal... doesn't really promote it for PvE as advertised in the developer comment as getting more penetration is kind of pointless since you're pen capped anyway from group buffs and for PvP making it give you full penetration on DoTs (think Pyrebrand, Relequen, Zaan... as well as the already buffed class DoTs like the new Searing claw) is not going to lead into particularly fun fights.

Making Corrosive Armor weaker defensively is also not something that's ideal for PvP as this'll make you take almost three times more damage while in Corrosive Armor... leading to a lot more situations (particularly outnumbered fights) where you simply cannot switch to offense to fight back because now almost everything will still deal full damage to you.
Some of the worst DK abilities (and worst abilities in the game in general) received zero changes:
Talons still being 6m radius still prevents it from competing with Contingency, Soul Burst or any other similar Root+DoT (or another similarly powerful effect) 8m radius ability. Choking Talons is still a terrible morph (you give up decent DoT damage for Minor Maim, which is not particularly powerful & very easily applied from any Frost damage for example).

Igneous Shield/Fragmented Shield are still extremely weak as demonstrated on the video, these would require a much bigger buff than 12% to ever be worth even considering. Again, you should compare these abilities to Warding Contingency for example, which has more than double the size on the shield and can pick from multiple useful buffs+powerful signature effects.

Otherwise pretty solid changes on the first glance, going to have to test them more thoroughly on the PTS. Still, figured I'd post some early feedback.

React · January 10

Think we'll have to wait and see how corrosive pans out on Monday. Most people here probably don't remember how strong corrosive was back when it affected dots. This coupled with the 300% damage increase to the corro dot itself, which is also now going to get the benefit of ignoring pen, is probably going to be a bit too oppressive in pvp.

That said, I don't think a reduction in the defensive capability of the skill is a bad thing. Ive been saying for years how it would be fine if the skill was very strong offensively, as long as it didnt also couple as an extremely strong defensive ult as well.

MXVIIDREAM · January 10

Can’t lie I loved all the changes up until I read the fire breath morph from a PvP perspective running a stam fire breath on a mag dk is going to be rough with how much resource management is axed on dks shame it only give major breach because we all have multiple access to that already, a unique buff would have been cool but I can’t use the other one. channeled abilities don’t really have much place in PvP honestly won’t be long before that’s obsolete getting based won’t be much fun in that

Personofsecrets · January 10

I genuinely hate the changes to battle roar, mountain's blessing, and helping hands. It's disturbing that the designer don't mind swapping these things around which are some of the few things that actually feel good about playing DK tank and actually add to that identity.

No amount of splitting up skill lines is likely to make pure classes worth while. It's not statistically probable that out of 21 possilbe skill lines, for each class to have a preference for it's own kit and those three skill lines only. Therefore, breaking up skill lines so that they have less focus toward any one goal is really just nerfing all roles and upending current ways of playing that people such as myself may enjoy.

And if there is some strange scenario where all classes prefer their own kits, then again there will be a tendency toward the homogenization that people complain about.

I'm struggling to find much in the changes that makes DK feel cool. Whether it is as a pure class or as a multiclass, DK has had tools stolen from it time and time again over the years and that theft has caused a great loss in what makes it feel cool. Sliding around passives doesn't make DK feel cool. Transforming some of the few things about DK that feel remotely interesting, for example the Ultimates, doesn't help them be cool. Maybe, they are becoming even less cool now. Mutilating the Earthen Heart passives doesn't feel cool, it makes me sick.

Imagine how useless Magma Shell or especially corrosive armor is without the immediate health restoration provided by Battle Roar. That is especially the case in the current toxic PvP environment that will not be improving whatsoever for DK.

Igneous shield loses it's niche effect of restoring stamina in tight spots due to the gutting helping hands. So in these scenarios where a DK is being pressured on health and wants some stamina back for blocking, it now has to break up it's shielding with..... heavy attacking..... That's right, the pulled the old swaparoo and are trying to force players to heavy attack again. So the thing that you definitely do not have time or health for under pressure, heavy attacking, is new selling point of the changed skill line. That such an old way of thinking for the design team and I'm not surprised that they went there. And was there any review of "da data" which showed DK tanks enjoying heavy attacking? That's not only doubtful but also flies in the face of the change to Stonefist which would have helped tanks not have to drop block during key moments.

And how funny it is that Mountains Blessing couldn't have been left alone to allow for Igneous Weapons to buff both Major and Minor Brutality at once.

These changes aren't just upending a playstyle, they are nerfs, and they are a slap in the face. I'm more disgusted than I have ever been regarding the changes to this game.

Turtle_Bot · January 10

Some early (pre-testing) impressions on the changes (of course will need to actually jump on the PTS and test them out properly before giving final thoughts):

Ardent flame is a mixed bag. There's some really nice changes and some that seem just, why?

Standard seems ok. It definitely was too strong (in PvE) before with the flat 15% bonuses, although it remains to be seen if the total weapon/spell damage will be enough to not feel like too big of a nerf to the standard of might morph.

Flame lash is a nice change, although it could have reduced the cooldown to 15 seconds (33 uptime seems quite low compared to how potentially strong molten whip could be).

Searing strike seems fine, although not having a stam morph seems rough.

Core of flame it feels like they tried to keep too much utility on both morphs, meaning the clear damage morph will struggle to stand out.

Hearthfire is a strange fit, they've made both morphs into tank/utility abilities, but then they compete against each other and just end up like a lot of Sorcs current abilities where there's 1 clearly stronger morph and the other is not worth looking at.

Inferno seems like a really cool ability, not sure about losing FoO for it though (imo it feels like it maybe should have replaced deep breath).

Passives look interesting outside of A soul ablaze that just feels underwhelming, especially being the final passive that takes the longest to unlock.

Draconic power (from a PvP perspective) is going to be an insanely good line now.

Take flight will be one of the best PvP abilities in the game, being a targeted long range streak with a stronger CC and providing a massive damage buff. This ability alone makes this line interesting for sub-classing, but it gets even better.

dragonfire breath
I like what they've done here, disintergrating breath is the clear choice for PvP builds and PvE support builds, while the other morph seems like the clear winner for PvE parse DPS, being essentially flame beam. Gives both morphs real value.

Talons probably could have used an update (especially the choking talons morph), but otherwise fine here.

Wing Buffet (mmm, all you can eat buffalo wing buffet), this ability is the other reason this line is going to be so appealing going forward. Fleetstep is essentially warden wings, but with a stun and mitigation for ranged damage and protect the brood being an insane mitigation buff for PvP group play.

Chains has some nice buffs to bring it up to par with scribing pull with domination now providing longer duration major cowardice and potentially a free cast ability while devastation provides 2 insanely strong buffs (major evasion and major berserk).

The active abilities alone make this line worth considering for PvP, but the passives are also very strong as well. block mitigation remains, unconditional big chunk of health recovery (700 is a lot, even when factoring in being reduced by battle spirit) that also provides minor brutality, world in ruin now also buffs leap, so you're not forced to also run ardent flame to get buffs to account for the raw damage nerf and lastly battle roar is now in this line too.

My only dislike from this line is the name change for battle roar, "The Storm Voice"... This name sounds like a Sorcerer passive, not a DK passive. I would change the name to "Thume" or something similar, referencing back to Skyrim's Dragon Shouts seems very appropriate for the Dragon Knight class.

Earthen Heart is another mixed bag.

Magma shell has some nice changes, but corrosive seems problematic, especially, as React mentioned, for anyone who played back when corrosive used to work for DoTs back in the day. One of the best solutions I have seen for this ability is to reduce the increase in damage given to the DoT from +300% to +200% and double that increase against monsters. This brings it closer to something like destro ult in PvE where the armor ignore is basically a dead effect and reduces the offensive potential of this ability slightly in PvP. The other thing I would change to corrosive is make the damage cap 10% of max heath instead of 8%. That way it becomes much closer to the 2h ultimate in terms of power level since most damage taken will be within that 8-12% of max health range anyway outside of extreme outliers such as spec bow.

Superheated ward has me concerned over the values it will be given. Have to see what they are on the PTS, but one would hope that ZOS learned from the U41 changes to sorc ward regarding numbers swings that are too big (and also one would hope that sorcs ward was not nerfed just to give it to DK instead with the class refresh).

Magma fist has potential for a ranged DK build, but remains to be seen if it will have the damage of a regular ranged spammable to make it worth building around or if it will just keep it's current meh damage that has it relegated to being a support ability.

Molten weapons is actually fairly close imo. I would have instead preferred to see it inflict the burning status effect on each light/heavy attack instead of a single DoT tick of damage, that way it synergizes much nicer for pure DKs with the ardent flame passives while still being a decent way to source major sorcery/brutality for sub-classing builds and will keep it roughly on par with ZOS current proposed changes (i.e. nice ability for sub-classed builds, but even better when kept pure class).

Fossilize is a nice change from a gameplay perspective. having counterplay in being able to dodge roll is nice, but the short delay (only 1 second compared to equivalents that are 2 seconds delay or more) keeps it as a strong targeted CC. Giving it a snare will be interesting for PvP, although I will assume that everyone will have snare immunity between DK wings and/or warden wings.

Earthspike mantle is an strong buff to this ability, basically making it into "DK hurricane", with a mini draugrkin effect instead of minor expedition.

The passives seem mostly fine, but avalanche seems a bit slow in it's ramp up compared to how quickly it falls off. Adjusting this build up to fall off ratio a bit or increasing the payoff are things to look into for this passive.

Overall a lot of good changes here for DK (especially in the Draconic Power line).

There are a lot of name changes that are... interesting... and some definitely seem done for the sake of making a change, and some others are completely out of place on DK.

The one thing that has me concerned with the proposed DK changes is the removal of poison as the "secondary" or "stamina" morphs for the class. This removal of poison as DK's secondary ("Stamina") theme has only served to reinforce my already voiced concerns about the upcoming Sorcerer class reworks, concerns that only solidify when factoring in the blurbs of how ZOS sees Sorcerer as the "daedric pact" class (i.e. pets and more pets) and what they have been doing to the class over the years (forcing more into the pets while leaving everything else in such a sorry/messy state).

Decimus · January 10

React wrote: »

Think we'll have to wait and see how corrosive pans out on Monday. Most people here probably don't remember how strong corrosive was back when it affected dots. This coupled with the 300% damage increase to the corro dot itself, which is also now going to get the benefit of ignoring pen, is probably going to be a bit too oppressive in pvp.

That said, I don't think a reduction in the defensive capability of the skill is a bad thing. Ive been saying for years how it would be fine if the skill was very strong offensively, as long as it didnt also couple as an extremely strong defensive ult as well.

It kind of is very strong offensively right now if you build around it... but mostly so in group fights. In a 1v1 situation opponents can play around Corrosive nowadays (especially since they made Whip more delayed a couple patches ago & Shattering Rocks->Molten Whip isn't guaranteed to land anymore).

This of course shifts in the next patch with these current changes, where you get an extremely overtuned offensive ultimate for 1v1s (full penetration on Zaan/Searing Claw last ticks combined with CC+buffed Whip and Pyreband+Rele pressure is ggs), but what was previously S tier for group fights/1vX probably falls down to B tier as you simply won't be able to dive in and focus someone if being attacked by multiple people.

Or it creates a meta where you're juggling even more defensive skills just to click one or two offensive ones every few minutes... adding in things like Cauterize, sets like Mara's etc to counteract the now nerfed survivability to maybe allow an offensive window in a 1vX scenario.

daemondamian · January 11

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I genuinely hate the changes to battle roar, mountain's blessing, and helping hands. It's disturbing that the designer don't mind swapping these things around which are some of the few things that actually feel good about playing DK tank and actually add to that identity.

No amount of splitting up skill lines is likely to make pure classes worth while. It's not statistically probable that out of 21 possilbe skill lines, for each class to have a preference for it's own kit and those three skill lines only. Therefore, breaking up skill lines so that they have less focus toward any one goal is really just nerfing all roles and upending current ways of playing that people such as myself may enjoy.

And if there is some strange scenario where all classes prefer their own kits, then again there will be a tendency toward the homogenization that people complain about.

I really wish they weren't going down this path - muddying the skill lines & roles so you have to pick more than one skill line just to be optimal at a particular role (tank vs healer) or particular playstyle/content (solo vs group vs pvp) doesn't really seem like it will make choosing more than one of your original skill lines more powerful or desirable than subclassing *unless* they weaken each individual skill line so that choosing more than one of a particular class gives you more power.

I would rather they have some kind of incentive - added %damage done per additional original skill line selected or something - that would provide the power for retaining more than one original class skill line to make it a viable choice versus partial or fully subclassing.

I don't mind the reworking of skills but I think the abandonment of skill lines following specific roles or purposes (tank/defence, healer/buffs, damage) is wrong.

Also I see this being a quagmire of never-ending complaints and reworking due to PVP and PVE not being fully separated and abilities being more powerful for one content than the other.

They can put in conditions and qualifiers like "against monsters" but don't seem to want to do that across the board so some skills have to be balanced for PVP and PVE which isn't always possible.

Personofsecrets · January 11

daemondamian wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I genuinely hate the changes to battle roar, mountain's blessing, and helping hands. It's disturbing that the designer don't mind swapping these things around which are some of the few things that actually feel good about playing DK tank and actually add to that identity.

No amount of splitting up skill lines is likely to make pure classes worth while. It's not statistically probable that out of 21 possilbe skill lines, for each class to have a preference for it's own kit and those three skill lines only. Therefore, breaking up skill lines so that they have less focus toward any one goal is really just nerfing all roles and upending current ways of playing that people such as myself may enjoy.

And if there is some strange scenario where all classes prefer their own kits, then again there will be a tendency toward the homogenization that people complain about.

I really wish they weren't going down this path - muddying the skill lines & roles so you have to pick more than one skill line just to be optimal at a particular role (tank vs healer) or particular playstyle/content (solo vs group vs pvp) doesn't really seem like it will make choosing more than one of your original skill lines more powerful or desirable than subclassing *unless* they weaken each individual skill line so that choosing more than one of a particular class gives you more power.

I would rather they have some kind of incentive - added %damage done per additional original skill line selected or something - that would provide the power for retaining more than one original class skill line to make it a viable choice versus partial or fully subclassing.

I don't mind the reworking of skills but I think the abandonment of skill lines following specific roles or purposes (tank/defence, healer/buffs, damage) is wrong.

Also I see this being a quagmire of never-ending complaints and reworking due to PVP and PVE not being fully separated and abilities being more powerful for one content than the other.

They can put in conditions and qualifiers like "against monsters" but don't seem to want to do that across the board so some skills have to be balanced for PVP and PVE which isn't always possible.

They could even streamline passives that care about abilities being slotted to look for them on both bars and look for abilities from the class rather than the skill line.

Instead, they are ripping skill lines apart and there is no way that doing so can make a class feel more powerful, cool, or coherent in and of itself.

ZhuJiuyin · January 11

daemondamian wrote: »

I would rather they have some kind of incentive - added %damage done per additional original skill line selected or something - that would provide the power for retaining more than one original class skill line to make it a viable choice versus partial or fully subclassing.

They can put in conditions and qualifiers like "against monsters" but don't seem to want to do that across the board so some skills have to be balanced for PVP and PVE which isn't always possible.

Have you seen the announcement? In fact, that's exactly what was done in the DK changes.

The damage caused to monsters is additionally increased, such as:
Take Flight: This morph now fills you with draconic fury for 15 seconds after activation, which increases your damage done by 10% and doubles against monsters. This morph no longer extends the range or reduces the cost. We decreased the base damage by ~19% to account for the other potential damage increases.

The effect is improved according to the number of class skills, such as:
Fan the Flames (originally Searing Heat)
This passive now increases your chance of applying Burning by 25% at rank 1 and 50% at rank 2, and the damage it does by 12% at rank 1 and 25% at rank 2. These values increase by 5% at rank 1 and 10% at rank 2, and 2% at rank 1 and 5% at rank 2 per Dragonknight ability slotted. This passive no longer extends the duration or damage of some of your Ardent Flame abilities.

The Storm Voice (originally Battle Roar)
This passive now grants you 8 Health, Magicka, and Stamina per Ultimate spent at rank 1 and 16 at rank 2, plus 3 to these values per Dragonknight ability slotted at rank 1 and 6 at rank 2, rather than 18 Health, Magicka, and Stamina per UItimate spent at rank 1 and 37 at rank 2.

Turtle_Bot · January 11

Personofsecrets wrote: »

They could even streamline passives that care about abilities being slotted to look for them on both bars and look for abilities from the class rather than the skill line.

Instead, they are ripping skill lines apart and there is no way that doing so can make a class feel more powerful, cool, or coherent in and of itself.

The only thing not checked for is skills on the opposite bar (although with some passives like battle roar and searing heat, the ability to check both bars could be extremely overpowered even with reduced numbers).

As was pointed out above, there are passives and skills being changed to check for any respective class ability, not just specific skill line abilities.

Another one not mentioned above, but was in the change notes, was that Molten Whip will now gain stacks from ANY dragonknight ability from ANY of the 3 DK skill lines being activated, not just ardent flame abilities.

daemondamian · January 11

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

I would rather they have some kind of incentive - added %damage done per additional original skill line selected or something - that would provide the power for retaining more than one original class skill line to make it a viable choice versus partial or fully subclassing.

They can put in conditions and qualifiers like "against monsters" but don't seem to want to do that across the board so some skills have to be balanced for PVP and PVE which isn't always possible.

Have you seen the announcement? In fact, that's exactly what was done in the DK changes.

The damage caused to monsters is additionally increased, such as:
Take Flight: This morph now fills you with draconic fury for 15 seconds after activation, which increases your damage done by 10% and doubles against monsters. This morph no longer extends the range or reduces the cost. We decreased the base damage by ~19% to account for the other potential damage increases.

The effect is improved according to the number of class skills, such as:
Fan the Flames (originally Searing Heat)
This passive now increases your chance of applying Burning by 25% at rank 1 and 50% at rank 2, and the damage it does by 12% at rank 1 and 25% at rank 2. These values increase by 5% at rank 1 and 10% at rank 2, and 2% at rank 1 and 5% at rank 2 per Dragonknight ability slotted. This passive no longer extends the duration or damage of some of your Ardent Flame abilities.

The Storm Voice (originally Battle Roar)
This passive now grants you 8 Health, Magicka, and Stamina per Ultimate spent at rank 1 and 16 at rank 2, plus 3 to these values per Dragonknight ability slotted at rank 1 and 6 at rank 2, rather than 18 Health, Magicka, and Stamina per UItimate spent at rank 1 and 37 at rank 2.

Yeah I read it and watched Skinnycheeks breakdown of it too. It's true they've add in "some* 'against monster' qualifiers but not for everything & making some passives stronger by having more class skills slotted is different to adding an external incentive like I suggested.

Also the 'power' storm voice adding 'power' by using more of the skill lines abilities being slotted isn't the same as what I suggested - it doesn't really add much incentive against choosing another class skill lines with better recovery abilities/passives/options.

Perhaps if you chose all three of the new reworked DK skill lines you would have as much power as a current subclassed build might depending on your role or the content but it will be at the cost of having all classes and all skill lines weakened by having to have more than one original class skill line selected to reach the same level of power pure classes used to have and even there still be might be better combinations of subclassing that - for lack of a better term - out class pure classes.

BattleAxe · January 11

As it stands this is class 1 of 7 being reworked 6 more to go meaning these changes make dk pureclassing a viable option in the grand scheme with subclassing now as other classes get reworked subclassing will likely lose a lot of its appeal as they strength the class identity for the 6 remaining classes. Subclassing based on what’s changing on dk will likely become a niche system for people looking for a power fantasy outside of what the 7 classes bring once they are all reworked. Prime example a pure summoner build using sorc daedric summons with wardens animal companions and necros gravelord. Mark my words now down the road people are going to soon enough cal for subclassing to get a buff or a complete rework.

A quick idea for the future if I’m right and subclassing becomes niche. Rework subclassing to, you keep your 3 primary class skill lines and choose 1 subclass and build a 4th skill line example choose 1 ultimate from the subclass 5 active skills and 4 passive skills to create custom skill line tailored to your character. All skills ultimates and passives must come from that single subclass

Markytous · January 11

BattleAxe wrote: »

As it stands this is class 1 of 7 being reworked 6 more to go meaning these changes make dk pureclassing a viable option in the grand scheme with subclassing now as other classes get reworked subclassing will likely lose a lot of its appeal as they strength the class identity for the 6 remaining classes. Subclassing based on what’s changing on dk will likely become a niche system for people looking for a power fantasy outside of what the 7 classes bring once they are all reworked. Prime example a pure summoner build using sorc daedric summons with wardens animal companions and necros gravelord. Mark my words now down the road people are going to soon enough cal for subclassing to get a buff or a complete rework.

A quick idea for the future if I’m right and subclassing becomes niche. Rework subclassing to, you keep your 3 primary class skill lines and choose 1 subclass and build a 4th skill line example choose 1 ultimate from the subclass 5 active skills and 4 passive skills to create custom skill line tailored to your character. All skills ultimates and passives must come from that single subclass

I will definitely be happy if/when Subclassing becomes a meme. I will never ever miss seeing the same cookiecutter builds being copied over and over again that resulted within week 1 of Subclassing release. I enjoyed the flavor of each class and the counterplay mechanics built into each. Strengthening class skills/passives to increase in potency the more you invest into your class is the right way in my opinion. I've had enough Scorch Grim Focus for several lifetimes. It would have been cool if people really got creative but every single skill lines being balanced against each other was never going to happen.

If Dragonknight's overhauled skills/passives can end up performing very well played pure, the rest of the classes will have a very decent model to follow.

MXVIIDREAM · January 11

As a dk main (and a very good one) these changes are good/great for a pure class, not so great if you want to subclass which is EXACTLY HOW IT SHOULD BE if you can’t understand the changes or adjust your playstyle that’s on you but the moans I’m seeing are a joke, crying about dots lasting 10 seconds which was a mandatory change, in my opinion the fact people are crying it should be over 20 seconds minimum or longer shows how uneducated the people are, also makes me laugh that 10k over 10/20s is still 10k if you apply it only every 20 seconds because you can’t keep it up you literally don’t miss out on anything you still done the same damage, those however who can keep it up will be rewarded with 50% more dps as such a basic thing to do in the game this finally feels like the right thing to do and I’m glad they are doing it

MY ONLY CHANGE RN
Add major protection for 5seconds on activation of the new channeled fire breath, this will keep it in line with arcanists channeled beam or the Templar passive that mitigates a huge chunk of damage when you channel and stop people getting smacked while channeling and make it so much more appealing for players of any skill level

Personofsecrets · January 11

BattleAxe wrote: »

As it stands this is class 1 of 7 being reworked 6 more to go meaning these changes make dk pureclassing a viable option in the grand scheme with subclassing now as other classes get reworked subclassing will likely lose a lot of its appeal as they strength the class identity for the 6 remaining classes. Subclassing based on what’s changing on dk will likely become a niche system for people looking for a power fantasy outside of what the 7 classes bring once they are all reworked. Prime example a pure summoner build using sorc daedric summons with wardens animal companions and necros gravelord. Mark my words now down the road people are going to soon enough cal for subclassing to get a buff or a complete rework.

A quick idea for the future if I’m right and subclassing becomes niche. Rework subclassing to, you keep your 3 primary class skill lines and choose 1 subclass and build a 4th skill line example choose 1 ultimate from the subclass 5 active skills and 4 passive skills to create custom skill line tailored to your character. All skills ultimates and passives must come from that single subclass

If players just find 3 skill lines, when looking at all 21 skill lines, with the best damage passives and maybe 2 active skills that are good enough in each line, there are plenty of skills from scribing and the guild skill lines to fill in the gaps and reach 12 overall skill slots filled.

It will be highly unlikely that the those 3 best skill lines for each class are going to be it's 3 native ones, which will be completely butchered based on whatever the current "vision" is, rather than picking and choosing from all classes. There are simply modifiers that are the best, there are stats that are capped, and those modifiers play into how players will naturally homegenize gampelay simply by doing what makes the biggest number.

This all is so obvious that the class refresh being about making things fresh or being about pure-class viability seems to be just a convenient facade for whatever the true motivation of these changes are. Designers are allowed to make mistakes, but I feel like they need to be better at following the consequences of their actions to their logical conclusions so that they become better at stopping changes for the worse before they start.

Personofsecrets · January 11

Markytous wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

As it stands this is class 1 of 7 being reworked 6 more to go meaning these changes make dk pureclassing a viable option in the grand scheme with subclassing now as other classes get reworked subclassing will likely lose a lot of its appeal as they strength the class identity for the 6 remaining classes. Subclassing based on what’s changing on dk will likely become a niche system for people looking for a power fantasy outside of what the 7 classes bring once they are all reworked. Prime example a pure summoner build using sorc daedric summons with wardens animal companions and necros gravelord. Mark my words now down the road people are going to soon enough cal for subclassing to get a buff or a complete rework.

A quick idea for the future if I’m right and subclassing becomes niche. Rework subclassing to, you keep your 3 primary class skill lines and choose 1 subclass and build a 4th skill line example choose 1 ultimate from the subclass 5 active skills and 4 passive skills to create custom skill line tailored to your character. All skills ultimates and passives must come from that single subclass

I will definitely be happy if/when Subclassing becomes a meme. I will never ever miss seeing the same cookiecutter builds being copied over and over again that resulted within week 1 of Subclassing release. I enjoyed the flavor of each class and the counterplay mechanics built into each. Strengthening class skills/passives to increase in potency the more you invest into your class is the right way in my opinion. I've had enough Scorch Grim Focus for several lifetimes. It would have been cool if people really got creative but every single skill lines being balanced against each other was never going to happen.

If Dragonknight's overhauled skills/passives can end up performing very well played pure, the rest of the classes will have a very decent model to follow.

What is Dragonknights specific strength and how will it have a specific strength that is improved through a pure-class perspective as a result?

Markytous · January 11

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

As it stands this is class 1 of 7 being reworked 6 more to go meaning these changes make dk pureclassing a viable option in the grand scheme with subclassing now as other classes get reworked subclassing will likely lose a lot of its appeal as they strength the class identity for the 6 remaining classes. Subclassing based on what’s changing on dk will likely become a niche system for people looking for a power fantasy outside of what the 7 classes bring once they are all reworked. Prime example a pure summoner build using sorc daedric summons with wardens animal companions and necros gravelord. Mark my words now down the road people are going to soon enough cal for subclassing to get a buff or a complete rework.

A quick idea for the future if I’m right and subclassing becomes niche. Rework subclassing to, you keep your 3 primary class skill lines and choose 1 subclass and build a 4th skill line example choose 1 ultimate from the subclass 5 active skills and 4 passive skills to create custom skill line tailored to your character. All skills ultimates and passives must come from that single subclass

I will definitely be happy if/when Subclassing becomes a meme. I will never ever miss seeing the same cookiecutter builds being copied over and over again that resulted within week 1 of Subclassing release. I enjoyed the flavor of each class and the counterplay mechanics built into each. Strengthening class skills/passives to increase in potency the more you invest into your class is the right way in my opinion. I've had enough Scorch Grim Focus for several lifetimes. It would have been cool if people really got creative but every single skill lines being balanced against each other was never going to happen.

If Dragonknight's overhauled skills/passives can end up performing very well played pure, the rest of the classes will have a very decent model to follow.

What is Dragonknights specific strength and how will it have a specific strength that is improved through a pure-class perspective as a result?

After PTS we will know more intimately what that is. I'm speaking on broad terms with regards to opting for Pure Class Skill Lines and how they SHOULD be.

BattleAxe · January 11

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Can’t lie I loved all the changes up until I read the fire breath morph from a PvP perspective running a stam fire breath on a mag dk is going to be rough with how much resource management is axed on dks shame it only give major breach because we all have multiple access to that already, a unique buff would have been cool but I can’t use the other one. channeled abilities don’t really have much place in PvP honestly won’t be long before that’s obsolete getting based won’t be much fun in that

They did seem to rework some better sustain passives into the dks kit now so a stam skill might not be as rough on a mag dk once these changes go live. I agree tho on changing major breach to something else based on the name change to disintegrating dragon fire a proposal of sorts could be instead of major breach maybe as odd as it may be major brittle instead? Only other thought would be adding either an extended duration burning status effect or another unnamed dot to tick with burning and the skill dot

MXVIIDREAM · January 11

BattleAxe wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Can’t lie I loved all the changes up until I read the fire breath morph from a PvP perspective running a stam fire breath on a mag dk is going to be rough with how much resource management is axed on dks shame it only give major breach because we all have multiple access to that already, a unique buff would have been cool but I can’t use the other one. channeled abilities don’t really have much place in PvP honestly won’t be long before that’s obsolete getting based won’t be much fun in that

They did seem to rework some better sustain passives into the dks kit now so a stam skill might not be as rough on a mag dk once these changes go live. I agree tho on changing major breach to something else based on the name change to disintegrating dragon fire a proposal of sorts could be instead of major breach maybe as odd as it may be major brittle instead? Only other thought would be adding either an extended duration burning status effect or another unnamed dot to tick with burning and the skill dot

“Chargrilled enemy takes 10% more flame damage while this dot is active on them”

Or just give it access to major vulnerability sure a rare debuff would be cool to have one rare debuff on a dk

Also note the new channeled one, I believe it should come with a paired effect like arcanists get a shield with beam Templar’s get all attacks blocked while channeling
Maybe this should get minor protection for 5 seconds on cast would be super nice feel like a lot of players won’t use it because you’re getting hit full damage while using it which is going to be rough

BattleAxe · January 11

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Can’t lie I loved all the changes up until I read the fire breath morph from a PvP perspective running a stam fire breath on a mag dk is going to be rough with how much resource management is axed on dks shame it only give major breach because we all have multiple access to that already, a unique buff would have been cool but I can’t use the other one. channeled abilities don’t really have much place in PvP honestly won’t be long before that’s obsolete getting based won’t be much fun in that

They did seem to rework some better sustain passives into the dks kit now so a stam skill might not be as rough on a mag dk once these changes go live. I agree tho on changing major breach to something else based on the name change to disintegrating dragon fire a proposal of sorts could be instead of major breach maybe as odd as it may be major brittle instead? Only other thought would be adding either an extended duration burning status effect or another unnamed dot to tick with burning and the skill dot

“Chargrilled enemy takes 10% more flame damage while this dot is active on them”

Or just give it access to major vulnerability sure a rare debuff would be cool to have one rare debuff on a dk

Also note the new channeled one, I believe it should come with a paired effect like arcanists get a shield with beam Templar’s get all attacks blocked while channeling
Maybe this should get minor protection for 5 seconds on cast would be super nice feel like a lot of players won’t use it because you’re getting hit full damage while using it which is going to be rough

Another solution apart from using major brittle is just make it an unnamed armor debuff tht can stack with major and minor breach.

SolarRune · January 11

From a DD perspective I like the changes. Looking at it with my healer or tank eyes on I hate it, all the build variety offered of subclassing just vanishes, and there was no variety for many more years than DD. You basically need to select all the lines to be effective, massive backward step for supports, it swings the pendulum the other way that is as wrong as dd subclassing being overpowered.

MasterSpatula · January 12

Y'all are making me really glad Sorc isn't going first.

Vaqual · January 12

SolarRune wrote: »

From a DD perspective I like the changes. Looking at it with my healer or tank eyes on I hate it, all the build variety offered of subclassing just vanishes, and there was no variety for many more years than DD. You basically need to select all the lines to be effective, massive backward step for supports, it swings the pendulum the other way that is as wrong as dd subclassing being overpowered.

As far as I understood this design was exactly the goal, by popular demand. If you are objective non-optimal doesn't equal ineffective.

ZhuJiuyin · January 12

daemondamian wrote: »

Perhaps if you chose all three of the new reworked DK skill lines you would have as much power as a current subclassed build might depending on your role or the content but it will be at the cost of having all classes and all skill lines weakened by having to have more than one original class skill line selected to reach the same level of power pure classes used to have and even there still be might be better combinations of subclassing that - for lack of a better term - out class pure classes.

I believe the changes to the new DK are better. This encourages players to equip and use more DK-related skills, regardless of their skill line. This not only aligns with the previous calls for strengthening pure classes but also avoids the current drawback of subclasses, which restricts players to only three pure damage skill line or leaves them significantly behind. This design makes pure DK builds or combinations of two DK skill plus one other class line more valuable and avoids the power spike that can result from having three pure damage skill line.

SolarRune · January 12

Vaqual wrote: »

As far as I understood this design was exactly the goal, by popular demand. If you are objective non-optimal doesn't equal ineffective.

Whilst this may have been wanted for DDs, supports were not in the same place, healing still hadnt even surpassing u35 levels and tanking had some real variety in terms of skills and buff/debuffs. As a GM and raid leader, I'm now fielding so many support players coming to me not sure they want to carry on, or just angry about the changes, but as most people are DDs the voice of supports will just be ignored, again. Then people will complain about no good tanks or healers for content they want to run. It feels like supports always take the hit for DDs meta chasing.

Avran_Sylt · January 12

Not a DK main, and the use-case I use DK subclassing isn't meta in the slightest, but I do have an overland ult-gen setup that uses Take Flight like an ability. (Soul Harvest Backbar, Dead-Water's Guile, Fighter's Guild, and Asylum 2H gets about 28-40 ult per unit I kill).

Moving Fiery Breath to Draconic Power is going to make it a cool power fantasy: Take Flight -> Engulfing Flames -> Repeat if having landed on enemy groups larger than 4, (since killing 5 enemies outright gets enough ult back without even the Asylum 2H), otherwise 2H stampede to the next group.

All the damage buffs just means more of a buffet to eat from for this build.

With the 2H skill-line also being looked at at the in short order, I'm very interested in what this will end up looking like.

ZhuJiuyin · January 12

SolarRune wrote: »

Whilst this may have been wanted for DDs, supports were not in the same place, healing still hadnt even surpassing u35 levels and tanking had some real variety in terms of skills and buff/debuffs. As a GM and raid leader, I'm now fielding so many support players coming to me not sure they want to carry on, or just angry about the changes, but as most people are DDs the voice of supports will just be ignored, again. Then people will complain about no good tanks or healers for content they want to run. It feels like supports always take the hit for DDs meta chasing.

The changes to the new DK also benefit supporters.
Dragonknight Standard provides teammates with a damage buff and reduced damage taken. Fire Keeper and Blood of the Elder Dragon now function similarly to Combat Prayer, providing one damage buff and one defense buff. Fire Keeper's range has been increased to 8 feet, and Blood of the Elder Dragon also heals allies within 10 meters. Protect the Brood now provides ranged damage reduction and Minor Protection to the raid.
Even for support DPS, Magma Fist is now easier to use than the original Stone Giant, while Mountain Giant provides a more convenient and stable source of Off Balance，and Exploiter CP is crucial in PvE endgame raids, and this change may even lead to new endgame builds like heavy-attack support DK.

MXVIIDREAM · January 12

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

Perhaps if you chose all three of the new reworked DK skill lines you would have as much power as a current subclassed build might depending on your role or the content but it will be at the cost of having all classes and all skill lines weakened by having to have more than one original class skill line selected to reach the same level of power pure classes used to have and even there still be might be better combinations of subclassing that - for lack of a better term - out class pure classes.

I believe the changes to the new DK are better. This encourages players to equip and use more DK-related skills, regardless of their skill line. This not only aligns with the previous calls for strengthening pure classes but also avoids the current drawback of subclasses, which restricts players to only three pure damage skill line or leaves them significantly behind. This design makes pure DK builds or combinations of two DK skill plus one other class line more valuable and avoids the power spike that can result from having three pure damage skill line.

It’s exactly what’s been asked for, problem are complaining because if this is how all the skill lines are going to be from the classes they won’t be able to play the game on easy mode with 3 super strong skill lines, rewarded for being a pure class, exactly what we all want to see apart from the people chasing 200k dps or 1 hit and run combos in PvP we are moving in a great direction and I’m excited for it

MXVIIDREAM · January 12

Vaqual wrote: »

SolarRune wrote: »

From a DD perspective I like the changes. Looking at it with my healer or tank eyes on I hate it, all the build variety offered of subclassing just vanishes, and there was no variety for many more years than DD. You basically need to select all the lines to be effective, massive backward step for supports, it swings the pendulum the other way that is as wrong as dd subclassing being overpowered.

As far as I understood this design was exactly the goal, by popular demand. If you are objective non-optimal doesn't equal ineffective.

Not really there’s some great stuff in there for tanks and even better stuff in there for support tbh

Makes subclassing a tank viable aswell, but when the whole servers picking the same 3 skill lines there’s a problem

daemondamian · January 12

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

daemondamian wrote: »

Perhaps if you chose all three of the new reworked DK skill lines you would have as much power as a current subclassed build might depending on your role or the content but it will be at the cost of having all classes and all skill lines weakened by having to have more than one original class skill line selected to reach the same level of power pure classes used to have and even there still be might be better combinations of subclassing that - for lack of a better term - out class pure classes.

I believe the changes to the new DK are better. This encourages players to equip and use more DK-related skills, regardless of their skill line. This not only aligns with the previous calls for strengthening pure classes but also avoids the current drawback of subclasses, which restricts players to only three pure damage skill line or leaves them significantly behind. This design makes pure DK builds or combinations of two DK skill plus one other class line more valuable and avoids the power spike that can result from having three pure damage skill line.

I solo everything I can & prefer to be a healer if I do group content with a group & my focus is survivability & sustain not just damage.

I have 14 characters all subclassed for solo content so I am not looking forward to having to redo them every time a class is reworked if they use and of those class skill lines.

I've already decided to swap away from DK for major resolve & the additional armour passive because they've been separated & instead use Solider of Apocrypha which still retains major resolve & the additional armour passive in the same skill line & hopefully being the last class won't be messed with until last.

Personofsecrets · January 12

SolarRune wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

As far as I understood this design was exactly the goal, by popular demand. If you are objective non-optimal doesn't equal ineffective.

Whilst this may have been wanted for DDs, supports were not in the same place, healing still hadnt even surpassing u35 levels and tanking had some real variety in terms of skills and buff/debuffs. As a GM and raid leader, I'm now fielding so many support players coming to me not sure they want to carry on, or just angry about the changes, but as most people are DDs the voice of supports will just be ignored, again. Then people will complain about no good tanks or healers for content they want to run. It feels like supports always take the hit for DDs meta chasing.

Yup, subclassing was the first time in a long time that my DK tank felt truly valuable again. There are so many new tools from new classes that DK had become less useful. Subclassing helped keep what was great about DK, but with other more modern tools.