Tome/Pass & ESO Plus - Actual Solution

AzuraFan · January 10

Malyore wrote: »

What I still don't understand your reasons for why the value of the subscription is going down for you and like-minded people... Because I don't see what about ESO+ is changing, aside from getting MORE bonuses in this upcoming update.

They might think it's going down because the DLC part is going away. Now everyone will get all the content for free. Before, ESO+ subscribers got dungeon DLCs and later on chapters as part of their sub. Non-subscribers had to pay for them.

To make up for that, there are a bunch of bonuses being added to ESO+, including the tokens that can be used to get one premium+bonus tome/year (if you're subscribed for all 12 months).

As for allowing the tomes to be bought with ESO+ crowns, that's not going to happen. ZOS needs to replace the income it used to get from selling chapters and DLCs. Sure, some ESO+ subscribers never bought a DLC or a chapter, but a lot did. So it would be a loss for ZOS to allow payment with ESO+ crowns.

ESO+ still has value for me. I tried playing without the craft bag once and quickly gave up. Could I do it? Sure, but only if I stop crafting and spend a lot of time doing inventory management. I'd rather pay for the convenience of not having to deal with that. I also like the bank space bonus, the furniture vault, and other stuff.

SneaK · January 10

Malyore wrote: »

What I still don't understand your reasons for why the value of the subscription is going down for you and like-minded people... Because I don't see what about ESO+ is changing, aside from getting MORE bonuses in this upcoming update.

How does ESO+ getting more benefits and ZOS adding a price tag on premium cosmetics make ESO+ less valuable to you? Is it because your value/reason of ESO+ has been being able to get, via crowns, whatever cosmetics you want, thus now being locked out of the new cosmetics by a price tag?

One more time with a few specifics:

I have 140 base bank space, plus gives me 280. Decreasing the cost to upgrade this is great for me, I can take it to what 240(?) base soon. I’ve been doing just fine with the 280, plus a few trunks. So, soon I will really be losing out on 40 bank slots, no big deal.

I currently have plus and 1000 transmute slots, base is going to 1500. These are mostly stocked full all the time at 1000, having 500 more for free is awesome. I don’t need 2000 more at all.

I can decon everything and then remake it as needed, that frees up space.

There are several DLC dungeons that I needed helms for, plus gave me access. I will no longer need plus to run these, another awesome update.

—————

And selling the seasons for crowns would bring the population up. This is the biggest part know one is talking about.

Malyore · January 10

SneaK wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

What I still don't understand your reasons for why the value of the subscription is going down for you and like-minded people... Because I don't see what about ESO+ is changing, aside from getting MORE bonuses in this upcoming update.

How does ESO+ getting more benefits and ZOS adding a price tag on premium cosmetics make ESO+ less valuable to you? Is it because your value/reason of ESO+ has been being able to get, via crowns, whatever cosmetics you want, thus now being locked out of the new cosmetics by a price tag?

One more time with a few specifics:

I have 140 base bank space, plus gives me 280. Decreasing the cost to upgrade this is great for me, I can take it to what 240(?) base soon. I’ve been doing just fine with the 280, plus a few trunks. So, soon I will really be losing out on 40 bank slots, no big deal.

I currently have plus and 1000 transmute slots, base is going to 1500. These are mostly stocked full all the time at 1000, having 500 more for free is awesome. I don’t need 2000 more at all.

I can decon everything and then remake it as needed, that frees up space.

There are several DLC dungeons that I needed helms for, plus gave me access. I will no longer need plus to run these, another awesome update.

—————

And selling the seasons for crowns would bring the population up. This is the biggest part know one is talking about.

Ohhh I think I see what you are saying. It's not that the value of ESO+ is inherently going down, but that the value of the base game is going up along with the subscription, with the base game storage spaces value raising up to that of the old subscription. And the now additional storage space the new subscription will offer seems unnecessary for your needs.

Tandor · January 10

SneaK wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

Craft bag, additional crowns, housing limit, transmute limit, bank limit, additional time for antiquities.

This is changing, did you watch the reveal?

The hook, line, and sinker of plus is all the craft bag now. Which is a really crappy way to sell a product/service, something that is close to required if you’re serious about the game, only because the inventory management system is bloated. Here’s an example, I took a 5 year break, came back without plus, my bank space was 100 slots over the limit. I literally couldn’t move gear from character to character. I grinded anyway, stacked mats to create the newer sets, but still had major issues transferring gear. So I caved and bought plus. It’s not an exciting purchase, people aren’t buying it cause it’s cool or nice, they buy it cause they feel like they have to.

I’m not complaining about money, I’m saying the product of ESO+ needs to be more than a craft bag and Crowns should be a currency for the passes.

@SneaK What is changing? From what I understand the ESO+ subscribers still will get more even after the increase of limits. I think I saw that for transmutes it will be 1500 for non subscribers and 3000 for ESO+. Probably, the same will be for housing limits. And I have not seen anything about the changes for bank limits.

I have to be careful how
I say this cause these are not bad things, they are very good actually.

The changes to lower cost of bag/bank space, add more vault space, more housing limits, more transmute capacity, antiquity time, etc. is going to be free. These all will impact the actually “necessity” for the craft bag. That’s a great thing. But, what’s left of ESO+? Crowns, and even higher limits, which people are pointing out above are not needed. The incentive to keep eso+ active isn’t there unless they tie it to the passes, and/or make crowns the currency to pay for the passes.

I have no real problem with ESO+, aside from its main function (inventory control) is not something myself enjoys throwing money at.

The post is honestly how I think they’ll sell more ESO+ and ultimately get more players to pick up the game, by spending their rotting crowns and (hopefully) having fun playing ESO.
game balance has to run as fast or faster for people to have fun and stay, though

I do not see how decreasing the cost of bag/bank space will affect the necessity of the craft bag. The bank limit is not changing to my knowledge. While the reduced cost is a good thing for new players it does not affect players that spent any sizable time in the game. They already purchased all bag upgrades a long time ago and will still have the same issues with managing the inventory without access to craft bag.

Edit: while I'd LOVE to have free infinite craft bag, I do not see this happening any time soon.

I don’t think we’re seeing each others points.

Let me ask this, if the 10 year vets have everything in regard to inventory unlocked and don’t need the bank space/bag bonus, why do you think they pay for ESO+ each month?

Speaking personally, I sub mostly to support the game. I had ESO+ way before there was a craft bag or DLC's and have never considered stopping it.

Yes, the craft bag and double bank are nice. The double housing limits are the nearest to an essential for me but I could probably get away with just subbing when I want to change completed houses if it was the reason I keep it. The DLC's are a non issue because I "own" all the zones and don't care all that much about access to dungeons. It would actually mean I'd do dungeons more without them because I avoid randoms now knowing they'll probably be time-consuming DLC's.

The idea of somehow punishing ZoS for not running their game how I want by unsubbing makes no sense to me. They're a business that needs income to keep going. If everyone stops every time they did something we didn't like there'd be no game. It costs me less each month than the same amount of crowns so I don't see a downside

So it’s a donation from you and you see no value in it other than crowns and maybe some weird tax write off. Got it.

Kinda proves my point.

More on topic though, how does allowing the passes to be bought with crowns have any negative affect to us consumers?

It really doesn't prove anything.

I'm buying a product and consider I get value for my money.

You asked why 10+ year players still buy ESO+ and I gave my motivation.

And more on topic, allowing passes to be bought with crowns hurts them because if people are using ESO+ crowns (and the suggestion was that's how it should be) it doesn't generate any revenue for them. They're already giving subscribers 25% off as it is. At the end of the day they still need to make money.

The point is that the people that currently pay for plus, do it for more than just crowns. Many of the upcoming changes diminishes ESO+’s value into more of a crown subscription, which can’t be used on the passes that will give cosmetics. People will drop plus to opt for the passes instead. If we can use crowns for the passes, there’s more incentive to keep plus. The number in the post was just an example, make the passes instead cost 5000 crowns, whatever. It would still incentivize people to maintain plus in order to buy the passes, and people will still buy crowns (aka spend money) to make up the differences in cost for passes, which you can’t buy exact amounts of crowns so you’re still spending more money than what is just “required”.

I have no intention of either dropping ESO+ or buying the the paid version of Tomes. I will continue to get a lot of benefits from the sub and I have zero interest in premium cosmetics. I shall continue to pay the same level of subscription as before but get a lot more value as a result of this update than I got before.

SerafinaWaterstar · January 10

I don’t agree with all of what the OP says, but I do like the idea that the Premium/+ Tomes can be purchased with crowns.

That should be considered. @ZOS_Kevin ?

SneaK · January 10

Malyore wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

What I still don't understand your reasons for why the value of the subscription is going down for you and like-minded people... Because I don't see what about ESO+ is changing, aside from getting MORE bonuses in this upcoming update.

How does ESO+ getting more benefits and ZOS adding a price tag on premium cosmetics make ESO+ less valuable to you? Is it because your value/reason of ESO+ has been being able to get, via crowns, whatever cosmetics you want, thus now being locked out of the new cosmetics by a price tag?

One more time with a few specifics:

I have 140 base bank space, plus gives me 280. Decreasing the cost to upgrade this is great for me, I can take it to what 240(?) base soon. I’ve been doing just fine with the 280, plus a few trunks. So, soon I will really be losing out on 40 bank slots, no big deal.

I currently have plus and 1000 transmute slots, base is going to 1500. These are mostly stocked full all the time at 1000, having 500 more for free is awesome. I don’t need 2000 more at all.

I can decon everything and then remake it as needed, that frees up space.

There are several DLC dungeons that I needed helms for, plus gave me access. I will no longer need plus to run these, another awesome update.

—————

And selling the seasons for crowns would bring the population up. This is the biggest part know one is talking about.

Ohhh I think I see what you are saying. It's not that the value of ESO+ is inherently going down, but that the value of the base game is going up along with the subscription, with the base game storage spaces value raising up to that of the old subscription. And the now additional storage space the new subscription will offer seems unnecessary for your needs.

Yes, plus the added content which is huge. It’s a great update for people who have never spent their crowns on the DLC content or maxed out bag space.

SneaK · January 10

Tandor wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

lillybit wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

Craft bag, additional crowns, housing limit, transmute limit, bank limit, additional time for antiquities.

This is changing, did you watch the reveal?

The hook, line, and sinker of plus is all the craft bag now. Which is a really crappy way to sell a product/service, something that is close to required if you’re serious about the game, only because the inventory management system is bloated. Here’s an example, I took a 5 year break, came back without plus, my bank space was 100 slots over the limit. I literally couldn’t move gear from character to character. I grinded anyway, stacked mats to create the newer sets, but still had major issues transferring gear. So I caved and bought plus. It’s not an exciting purchase, people aren’t buying it cause it’s cool or nice, they buy it cause they feel like they have to.

I’m not complaining about money, I’m saying the product of ESO+ needs to be more than a craft bag and Crowns should be a currency for the passes.

@SneaK What is changing? From what I understand the ESO+ subscribers still will get more even after the increase of limits. I think I saw that for transmutes it will be 1500 for non subscribers and 3000 for ESO+. Probably, the same will be for housing limits. And I have not seen anything about the changes for bank limits.

I have to be careful how
I say this cause these are not bad things, they are very good actually.

The changes to lower cost of bag/bank space, add more vault space, more housing limits, more transmute capacity, antiquity time, etc. is going to be free. These all will impact the actually “necessity” for the craft bag. That’s a great thing. But, what’s left of ESO+? Crowns, and even higher limits, which people are pointing out above are not needed. The incentive to keep eso+ active isn’t there unless they tie it to the passes, and/or make crowns the currency to pay for the passes.

I have no real problem with ESO+, aside from its main function (inventory control) is not something myself enjoys throwing money at.

The post is honestly how I think they’ll sell more ESO+ and ultimately get more players to pick up the game, by spending their rotting crowns and (hopefully) having fun playing ESO.
game balance has to run as fast or faster for people to have fun and stay, though

I do not see how decreasing the cost of bag/bank space will affect the necessity of the craft bag. The bank limit is not changing to my knowledge. While the reduced cost is a good thing for new players it does not affect players that spent any sizable time in the game. They already purchased all bag upgrades a long time ago and will still have the same issues with managing the inventory without access to craft bag.

Edit: while I'd LOVE to have free infinite craft bag, I do not see this happening any time soon.

I don’t think we’re seeing each others points.

Let me ask this, if the 10 year vets have everything in regard to inventory unlocked and don’t need the bank space/bag bonus, why do you think they pay for ESO+ each month?

Speaking personally, I sub mostly to support the game. I had ESO+ way before there was a craft bag or DLC's and have never considered stopping it.

Yes, the craft bag and double bank are nice. The double housing limits are the nearest to an essential for me but I could probably get away with just subbing when I want to change completed houses if it was the reason I keep it. The DLC's are a non issue because I "own" all the zones and don't care all that much about access to dungeons. It would actually mean I'd do dungeons more without them because I avoid randoms now knowing they'll probably be time-consuming DLC's.

The idea of somehow punishing ZoS for not running their game how I want by unsubbing makes no sense to me. They're a business that needs income to keep going. If everyone stops every time they did something we didn't like there'd be no game. It costs me less each month than the same amount of crowns so I don't see a downside

So it’s a donation from you and you see no value in it other than crowns and maybe some weird tax write off. Got it.

Kinda proves my point.

More on topic though, how does allowing the passes to be bought with crowns have any negative affect to us consumers?

It really doesn't prove anything.

I'm buying a product and consider I get value for my money.

You asked why 10+ year players still buy ESO+ and I gave my motivation.

And more on topic, allowing passes to be bought with crowns hurts them because if people are using ESO+ crowns (and the suggestion was that's how it should be) it doesn't generate any revenue for them. They're already giving subscribers 25% off as it is. At the end of the day they still need to make money.

The point is that the people that currently pay for plus, do it for more than just crowns. Many of the upcoming changes diminishes ESO+’s value into more of a crown subscription, which can’t be used on the passes that will give cosmetics. People will drop plus to opt for the passes instead. If we can use crowns for the passes, there’s more incentive to keep plus. The number in the post was just an example, make the passes instead cost 5000 crowns, whatever. It would still incentivize people to maintain plus in order to buy the passes, and people will still buy crowns (aka spend money) to make up the differences in cost for passes, which you can’t buy exact amounts of crowns so you’re still spending more money than what is just “required”.

I have no intention of either dropping ESO+ or buying the the paid version of Tomes. I will continue to get a lot of benefits from the sub and I have zero interest in premium cosmetics. I shall continue to pay the same level of subscription as before but get a lot more value as a result of this update than I got before.

To each their own, didn’t say everybody.

Cooperharley · January 10

Malyore wrote: »

I think it's fine as it is. The content is free.
You can just keep your ESO+ subscription and play whatever new content they release.

I like it as is, too.

Cooperharley · January 10

SneaK wrote: »

Maybe it’s already planned similar I dunno. But,,,

Just let us buy the passes with crowns.

Example:
Free = Free
Paid = 3000 crowns or ESO+
Premium = 3000 crowns and must be ESO+ member to purchase..

That gives incentive to still do ESO + cause we get crowns monthly, we can save up two months worth and still have 1500 leftover after buying the premium [Although you know your consumer will blow them anyway without saving and buy more so they can get the pass]. It also rewards vet players who have lots of crowns, and might entice some that left the game to come back to it cause they won’t have to get locked into anything and likely have crowns on their account.

This is a simplified method, stop adding so much currency in game but still requiring certain content to be actual dollars/pesos/pounds/whatever.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno
I know yall aren’t giddy about specifics, but this drives your bottom line and grants accessibility for people to get back into the game.

Locking a tier behind ESO+ isn't smart.

virtus753 · January 11

As others have alluded to, reducing revenue so drastically is probably not viable.

Crowns are a kind of trauma mechanic when it comes to revenue: they absorb what would be new incoming revenue until they’re used up. Only once crowns are used, so that the player has to put in more real world currency, can ZOS put new revenue on the books. Crowns are also frequently discounted: they can be gotten much more cheaply during periodic sales or through subs. That discounted and irregular revenue is even more of an issue now that ZeniMax is owned by a corporate gaming division that is expected to produce a 30% margin. Viability is long past being about keeping the lights on — it’s about competing with alternative investment opportunities, like AI.

1) There are nearly a decade’s worth of crowns already in the ecosystem. That revenue has already been accounted for previously. (Or hasn’t, if they were fraudulently bought.) I know a lot of crowns get spent, but a lot haven’t been, whether due to lack of interest or due to being unable to gift, etc. I’ve been sitting on around 50k for several years because I occasionally get my partner or myself a little shiny, but it isn’t enough to spend the annual allotment from the sub. I’d be able to pay for even premium seasons for years with no new revenue, even if I stopped my sub right now. I have quite a few friends in a similar situation. There are people like us with lots of crowns that would negate lots of potential revenue, especially up front.

2) Subs will continue to provide crowns, which lowers the amount of money needed to be spent compared to a model in which sub crowns (or crowns in general) can’t be used. If a season cost 3000 crowns, and I get 4950 per quarter with the sub, I don’t have to buy any crowns to get the seasons at no additional cost. I continue to gain 1950 per quarter to spend on other things, which is more than what I use right now. ZOS gets no additional revenue beyond the sub I’m already paying for. This may encourage some new subscriptions from other players, but subs alone are not nearly as much as subs plus seasons. ZOS will want both if they want to remain viable.

3) When people need more crowns, the packs are highly variable in terms of purchase price. Some crowns are bought at over 1 cent each (in USD, $7.99 gets 750 crowns), while others have been bought at less than 0.4 cents (I used to buy crowns at 50% on sale — dating myself here, since it’s normally now only down to 40%). If seasons cost 3000 crowns each, that could be $32 (4 packs of 750, not discounted) or under $13 (using 3000 of a 21000 pack bought at 40% off).

Now seasons are slated to be (USD) $14.99/$29.99 full stop. There are no sales on real world currency, and there’s less pressure to offer sales on quarterly seasons like there are with chapters (which age over the course of an entire year and get increasingly discounted each quarter after the first). ZOS gets the full price for each season, without having to accept the negated or diminished revenue of previously bought crowns, crowns that come with a sub, crowns bought on deep discount, or sale prices.

When ZOS slapped the label “chapter” on certain DLC to stop it being included in ESO+ for a year, that was so they could get new realized revenue rather than letting people use crowns (i.e. old revenue, revenue from subs, and/or less revenue due to crown sales). Seasons act similarly but preserve their value better: like chapters, they provide a new source of regular revenue priced in real world money, but that revenue will now align with the corporate quarterly cadence and won’t decline throughout the year.

Don’t get me wrong — paying for seasons with crowns would be great for us in the short term, and as a consumer I’d love for it to be an option. But it would also cut down significantly on the revenue from this new model. With all the layoffs and cutbacks that have already been made (and looking at how a big tech competitor just dropped gaming development entirely), I don’t see how weakened revenue models are viable in the bigger picture of corporatized game development. And the sooner the game stops meeting corporate expectations, the sooner it gets shelved. These are the deeply unfortunate consequences of corporatizing fun.