Does the dragonknight rework actually bring it up to speed compared to subclassing?

Nyseto · January 10

I read the rework, although I don't main DK. I want to know if judging off the rework this will make pure DK viable because even though the class refresh is meant to focus on class identity, focusing on class identity would be kind of pointless if it still leaves pure classes in the dust compared to subclassing.

So what do you personally think judging from the rework so far? Do you think it's enough to make DK able to stand on its own without subclassing?

Radiate77 · January 10

We should know if DPS is comparable on Monday, as the patch hits PTS, but as far as Support goes, that is a resounding yes.

Part of what makes a Support stand out for their group, is how well they provide damage and mitigation, as heals are quite easy to access.

With Protect the Brood (Wings) providing a unique damage reduction, Standard providing a unique damage increase, and the new Blood of the Elder Dragon (Coag) the class has a way to provide Minor Courage to the group all baked into their heal.

Vulkunne · January 10

The problem is DK already stands on its own well, or at least it did, before subclassing. That was something I liked about the old DK. Having some experience now with subclass and looking at their proposed changes, no amount of change is going to replace the utility provided by subclassing in some instances. I'm sorry/not sorry, but love/hate subclassing, we're not going back.

The question becomes, will the new DK abilities fit into subclassing, or will it be a standalone class? DK already isn't a strong subclass option, so the best-case scenario is to allow the DK to compete with it. But again, I think, in doing this, if you do too much to break down the DK Class identity, compete or not you have completely failed.

Nyseto · January 10

Vulkunne wrote: »

The problem is DK already stands on its own well, or at least it did, before subclassing. That was something I liked about the old DK. Having some experience now with subclass and looking at their proposed changes, no amount of change is going to replace the utility provided by subclassing in some instances. I'm sorry/not sorry, but love/hate subclassing, we're not going back.

The question becomes, will the new DK abilities fit into subclassing, or will it be a standalone class? DK already isn't a strong subclass option, so the best-case scenario is to allow the DK to compete with it. But again, I think, in doing this, if you do too much to break down the DK Class identity, compete or not you have completely failed.

I'm not expecting any nerfing or replacement for the utility provided by subclassing, all I care about is to not be forced to subclass to match dps. It can have all the utility in the world, I just don't want it to punish those of us who choose to pure class. There's got to be an upside to pure classing.

Nemesis7884 · January 10

more good than bad changes and definitely in the right direction but some things absolutely need another look at and wont really work (wont work as in these skills will not be used by anyone) imo

Personofsecrets · January 11

It's hard to tell now without the actual numbers, but no, I don't believe that much will be changing regarding DK. I believe that a number of changes will be a pain in the butt and not really bear any fruit.

Personofsecrets · January 11

Vulkunne wrote: »

The problem is DK already stands on its own well, or at least it did, before subclassing. That was something I liked about the old DK. Having some experience now with subclass and looking at their proposed changes, no amount of change is going to replace the utility provided by subclassing in some instances. I'm sorry/not sorry, but love/hate subclassing, we're not going back.

The question becomes, will the new DK abilities fit into subclassing, or will it be a standalone class? DK already isn't a strong subclass option, so the best-case scenario is to allow the DK to compete with it. But again, I think, in doing this, if you do too much to break down the DK Class identity, compete or not you have completely failed.

Yup - and this is why I don't like the Earthen Heart passive changes from a tanking perspective. Moving the passives around to other skill lines diminishes this classic tanking line in power and will overall make it less useful from the subclassing perspective. Even if Earthen Heart ends up being used in many places, I'd consider the changes to the passives to constitute a tanking nerf.

Desiato · January 11

Vulkunne wrote: »

The question becomes, will the new DK abilities fit into subclassing, or will it be a standalone class? DK already isn't a strong subclass option, so the best-case scenario is to allow the DK to compete with it. But again, I think, in doing this, if you do too much to break down the DK Class identity, compete or not you have completely failed.

That's not true. The only skill line currently considered weak is Draconic Power. Ardent Flame is one of the best DD skill lines and Earthen Heart is one of the best tank/support skill lines.

A DK that swaps Draconic Power for Assassination, Herald or another decent DD skill line is a very strong solo dungeon/wb setup.

I have no idea how ZOS plans to make a pure dragonknight competitive with subclassed builds without making it OP -- which is a BIG problem considering how long it's going to take them to update each class.

The thing is, pure classes aren't actually weak in most contexts. They just aren't optimal. They can easily and competently complete all content. I think ZOS is more focused on restoring the power fantasy for ultra-casuals by making them easier to achieve good parse results on through Fatecarver-like gameplay. On DK this will be through Engulfing Dragonfire and AEs IMO.

Turtle_Bot · January 11

I think it's going to be a case of wait for more classes to get refreshed and see what ZOS does. It will also depend on what other changes are made to non-DK classes in the meantime as well.

It seems like ZOS is making more class lines be similar to Sorcerers lines where the skills follow a theme, not a particular role, but in doing so they are updating many of the abilities to actually be useful and worth considering on a build (pure or sub-classed) and the lines to give each other additional bonuses for having multiple lines from the same class.

There's a lot of good changes made to DK (and some that are not good) with this rework, and imo once more classes have been reworked this way, the classes will be a lot closer together than the current massive gap between beam and everything else.

My guess is that the changes to fiery breath will offer a pseudo beam build for DKs either remaining pure, or partially sub-classes taking draconic power (for the channeled flame breath) + ardent flame for the burning DPS and passives, and swapping out earthen heart for a sub-classed line (assassination, aedric spear, etc.). This way while it might not match beam for raw numbers it will at least offer a viable alternative. (this is all subject to seeing and testing things on the PTS and what other changes are made).