Not really balance related, but I think it would be a nice gesture to add a ''Green/Poison'' Skill Style to the DK skills that are being reworked from Poison to Fire damage. These morphs have been in the game for so long that I'm sure that some people actually built their DKs around a ''poison theme'', and having a few Skill Styles to preserve some of that theme would have no effect on actual combat balance. Could be added as an extra Achievement reward for reaching lvl50 with a DK or something like that.

Vraedlich wrote: »

"All sources of Poison Damage have been updated to Flame Damage in the Dragonknight kit. These changes were made to better focus on the core fantasy of the Dragonknight, where many affixes didn’t work, synergize, or coherently mesh with Poison across the entire kit. We’ll be re-introducing Poison Damage elsewhere in the game with other class refreshes, where it fits into the overall theme of said class rather than being tacked on."

What the [snip]. Terrible choice.
I'm one of the people who MAIN stamdk and hybrid .. and most of my Dragonknight builds make use of or even focus on poison damage.

I knew they were going to ruin the only class I actually enjoy.
[edited for profanity bypass]

Also made it a fire abily that somehow takes stam aswell silly should have been magicka with a unique effect not breach that’s heavy available

I hope ZOS adds the flame damage back to Standard of Might.

monkiie wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

a) Sad to see Poison go. Even if Nightblades or another class takes up the Poison mantle, there's no guarantee we will see similar skills, and that rework is more than a year away. So until then, Poison builds are just deleted from the game?

b) I really, really don't like to see Fire skills still costing Stamina. That makes no sense. It's against the game's own logic that was established over the years. If this continues, and I fully expect it to, what even are Magicka and Stamina? I can't even explain how this itches my brain, where is the magic coming from when I exert Stamina?! It's counter-intuitive, arbitrary, and immersion-smearing.

And this is a problem with hybridization. I like that they are going all in on the flame fantasy of a dragon knight but the developer decisions from years ago dug them into this hole. Hybridization and subclassing have aged very poorly and unfortunately will never be reverted.

Adding to this as

1 I agree it makes no sense and the more traction we can get the more it will be acknowledged
2 it’s use a high stamina costing fire breath (we are dks breathing fire is mandatory) which just isn’t an option on a magicka based fire class it’s just not sustainable
3 feels like I’m forced hard into using the channel or no fire breath on my fire master
Which utterly removes that feeling of, play your way

Sad because the rest of the changes I’m big behind

@ZOS_Kevin

Can we get this looked at please

elocinsere wrote: »

I'm not a dragonknight main, but would love to hear dk mains think of the changes. It seems that the focus on fire damage is cohesive to the dk theme. I know that some use dk for the poison abilities, and would like a sneak peak as to which class will utilize poison. I'd imagine that the request for class change tokens will go up. Any chance we might get them in the future?

I am concerned that while the rework process is in progress, the class won't be great. I am taking a wait and see approach. I'm not angry about the changes. Just concerned about the short term.

Skill lines are mostly focused on specific roles, while core functions are also split up. This makes Dragonknights suffer while subclassing compared to a class like the Arcanist or Necromancer, and it makes their lines less desirable to subclass into. For example, Burning Talons is locked behind an otherwise damage-weak skill line, making it a less optimal option to take despite being an iconic form of damage-over-time to the class.

In light of subclassing, we’ve decided to look at skill line ability and passive distribution more closely than we have before. There are currently two distinct models of building skill lines for classes; a role-centric model (Necromancer, Arcanist, most of Warden), and one that focuses on theme or identity (the original 4 classes, with some exceptions such as the Nightblades’ Assassination).

Prior to subclassing, there was a strong internal sentiment that the newer class model of role-specific skill lines was a more successful system for newer players, building more digestible experiences, and building more modular buckets that could be more easily compared and balanced to one another.

With subclassing, however, this model introduced a slew of challenges and imbalances where now the ideal way to play would involve picking a role-specific line from every class. This created a sense that it was largely ineffective to stay true to your class, and that the power difference between those who do and do not was larger than any other build permutations before.

I can't make heads or tails of this, really. I wouldn't know where to even begin pointing out specific things that confuse me, because that would mean there are things that make sense. Someone needs to explain this to me. For me, every time I think I understand what is being said it's followed by something that points to the opposite.

Just some things I can pick out as a starting point.

Are they now saying that it is good or bad that skill lines are role specific? Are they saying that makes them more or less desirable in subclassing? I mean, if DragonKinight is not strongly role based, and having strongly role based skill lines is a problem why the H(&* are they starting with DK and not with one of the classes that do have role based skill lines.

The reverse also makes no sense. If having strong role specific skill lines is the new standard and the DK needs to be strengthened then decentralizing DK role abilities would be the last thing to do?

elocinsere wrote: »

I'm not a dragonknight main, but would love to hear dk mains think of the changes. It seems that the focus on fire damage is cohesive to the dk theme. I know that some use dk for the poison abilities, and would like a sneak peak as to which class will utilize poison. I'd imagine that the request for class change tokens will go up. Any chance we might get them in the future?

Im so happy that they got rid of that ugly poison stuff, DK will actually feel like a Dragon Knight now. Dragon magic is too varied to accurately represent it in just a class for an mmo so sticking to the basic thu'um most associate with them, that being yol, fire, is very good. Even if its not specifically that but akaviri magics etc, we all know whats everyone's favorite association.

That taco breath being gone is a huge win, the ugly green on corrosive, same. Thematically I think its a major Zos W, never thought I'd say that. Especially the Wings change, I wanted this exact idea ever since warden was introduced and was sure to put that in the surveys, am shocked they listened.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

That taco breath being gone is a huge win, the ugly green on corrosive, same. Thematically I think it’s a major Zos W, never thought I'd say that. Especially the Wings change, I wanted this exact idea ever since warden was introduced and was sure to put that in the surveys, am shocked they listened.

Yeah bro honestly. Every. Single. Survey.
Cheers to the betterment of Dragonknight. 🍻

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for people saying fire skills using stamina makes no sense, it makes sense when you remember DK skills dont fully derive from magicka, they come from "ki" I believe its called like in DBZ, which is energy from the spirit. That was the case also loosely in Skyrim with the thu'um which is what the akaviri dragon magic is a cousin to, its tonal architecture and has different properties to normal magics.

So since we dont have a ki bar, it being represented as draining physical energy as well as magic is a decent workaround vs Skyrim which used a built in timer that didnt affect your magicka.

TLDR its lore accurate for what we know about dragon knights

TLDR this is a game/class that all other fire comes from magicka include this too so we have an option not to HAVE to pick a channel ability

Muizer wrote: »

Skill lines are mostly focused on specific roles, while core functions are also split up. This makes Dragonknights suffer while subclassing compared to a class like the Arcanist or Necromancer, and it makes their lines less desirable to subclass into. For example, Burning Talons is locked behind an otherwise damage-weak skill line, making it a less optimal option to take despite being an iconic form of damage-over-time to the class.

In light of subclassing, we’ve decided to look at skill line ability and passive distribution more closely than we have before. There are currently two distinct models of building skill lines for classes; a role-centric model (Necromancer, Arcanist, most of Warden), and one that focuses on theme or identity (the original 4 classes, with some exceptions such as the Nightblades’ Assassination).

Prior to subclassing, there was a strong internal sentiment that the newer class model of role-specific skill lines was a more successful system for newer players, building more digestible experiences, and building more modular buckets that could be more easily compared and balanced to one another.

With subclassing, however, this model introduced a slew of challenges and imbalances where now the ideal way to play would involve picking a role-specific line from every class. This created a sense that it was largely ineffective to stay true to your class, and that the power difference between those who do and do not was larger than any other build permutations before.

I can't make heads or tails of this, really. I wouldn't know where to even begin pointing out specific things that confuse me, because that would mean there are things that make sense. Someone needs to explain this to me. For me, every time I think I understand what is being said it's followed by something that points to the opposite.

Just some things I can pick out as a starting point.

Are they now saying that it is good or bad that skill lines are role specific? Are they saying that makes them more or less desirable in subclassing? I mean, if DragonKinight is not strongly role based, and having strongly role based skill lines is a problem why the H(&* are they starting with DK and not with one of the classes that do have role based skill lines.

The reverse also makes no sense. If having strong role specific skill lines is the new standard and the DK needs to be strengthened then decentralizing DK role abilities would be the last thing to do?

Role-specific class skill lines are no longer going to be a thing if you ask me, since stacking 3 skill lines with the same ''role'' is one of the major issues that Subclassing introduced. If every class skill line ends up providing a roughly similar performance in each of the 3 roles, then there is no longer a problem with Subclass stacking and Pure Class should(in theory) have similar performance.

None of this will happen until all 7 Class reworks are finished tho, since you still have skill lines like Herald of the Tome/Assassination/etc being hyper focused on 1 role, so I don't expect a ''Pure DK'' to be able to compete just yet.

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for people saying fire skills using stamina makes no sense, it makes sense when you remember DK skills dont fully derive from magicka, they come from "ki" I believe its called like in DBZ, which is energy from the spirit. That was the case also loosely in Skyrim with the thu'um which is what the akaviri dragon magic is a cousin to, its tonal architecture and has different properties to normal magics.

So since we dont have a ki bar, it being represented as draining physical energy as well as magic is a decent workaround vs Skyrim which used a built in timer that didnt affect your magicka.

TLDR its lore accurate for what we know about dragon knights

TLDR this is a game/class that all other fire comes from magicka include this too so we have an option not to HAVE to pick a channel ability

This game exists within the confines of the lore of the series, that shouldnt be ignored, the DK is already one of the least lore friendly, it should at least be consistent with its own introduced lore. People want to stand out and have class identity, not be the same in every aspect as everyone else. It sucks having the coolest part of your class being restricted to magic or stamina. Especially when other classes dont follow this rule, suddenly no one cares that templar has restoration magic offensive abilities that use stamina.

Besides, poison "magic" being stamina based makes as much sense as fire... what because theyre both represented with green? Lol.

Its a good change not just from that aspect but also just functionality for DK and build consistency.

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Not really balance related, but I think it would be a nice gesture to add a ''Green/Poison'' Skill Style to the DK skills that are being reworked from Poison to Fire damage. These morphs have been in the game for so long that I'm sure that some people actually built their DKs around a ''poison theme'', and having a few Skill Styles to preserve some of that theme would have no effect on actual combat balance. Could be added as an extra Achievement reward for reaching lvl50 with a DK or something like that.

Ya. This please at least. My poor Holly Tosis character is gonna be undone by this.

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Role-specific class skill lines are no longer going to be a thing if you ask me

Well that would be cool, but if that's the case, surely they'd start with the classes that actually have
role specific skill classes? I mean I realize those aren't the ones that are most in need of an aesthetic refresh, but surely that should not take priority over restoring a modicum of balance in the wake of subclassing?

Lava Whip:
This ability now becomes Volcanic Whip for 7.9 seconds after it damages an Off Balance enemy. The time window activation can occur only once every 20 seconds. Volcanic Whip costs half as much, deals 33.3% more damage, and deals its damage in a 5-meter radius around the original target. This change was made to help introduce the Flame Lash morph gameplay element sooner, while also making the window of interaction with Off Balance less restrictive. You now get a guaranteed window of time after hitting the Off Balance target, rather than being forced to drop everything you’re doing while Off Balance is active. These abilities no longer set Immobilized or Stunned enemies Off Balance. (We’ve sourced Off Balance on a new passive you’ll read about later in a different skill line.)

Flame Lash:
This morph now heals you any time the ability deals damage, rather than only when the Power Lash version is active. This morph sees the same changes to activating Power Lash as the base ability does.


Mountain Giant:
This passive has been reworked. It now causes your fully charged Heavy Attacks to apply Off Balance to the enemy (this applies after the damage, so you can’t instantly stun the target with this). Additionally, rank 2 of this passive causes your fully charged Heavy Attacks to generate 1430 Stamina (this is considered a proc, so no interplay with other effects) on top of whatever restore they’d normally grant, to help keep some of the original passive functionality. This passive should pair nicely with Lava Whip, while also just giving you a much more controlled and simple way of triggering Off Balance in general


Please keep Off Balance applying when attacking an immobilized or stunned target, the same way it worked before.
The old version gave us many options to apply Off Balance through skills and CC.

In the new version, relying on Heavy Attacks only to apply Off Balance is not good:

It is slow

It breaks combat flow

It is unrealistic in PvP

This is a clear downgrade compared to the old gameplay.

Also, why is there a 20-second cooldown on the new Flame Lash / Volcanic Whip proc?
This cooldown feels unnecessary and restrictive.

Please remove the 20-second cooldown and keep the old Off Balance interaction, while allowing the new mechanic to exist alongside it.

The old system was more flexible, more skill-based, and more fun than the new one.

Generate 1430 stamina from heavy attack is bad change and not in place keep it with any dk skills with cooldown
Suggestion: Change heavy attack to light attack instead to proc off balance dont make us force to use heavy attack builds.

I am more or less just a pve player and I am one of those who had a poison DK. I ran Venomous smite and Witch-knights defiance with 2 handed front and bow (poison) back. I'm not sure I see any use for either of those sets now.

Was it the best build? No probably not. Was it fun to play? Yes. Gap closing with stampede and then smothering anything the proc missed with Noxious breath was fun. Staying back and peppering a large group with poison arrow before leaping in and finishing off a load of weakened foes was fun.

I doubt if there will be as good a close quarters poison skill as Noxious breath and the other current class poison sources (Venom skull in Necro and Subterranean Assault in Warden) are both distance. Sub assault also has the 3 second delay where as Noxious hit instantly and carried on hitting.

So I am now left with either deleting that character or waiting to see if it is worth getting poison via sub classing from elsewhere.

I know this post is probably going to have zero effect. Those who wanted a fire DK now have one but I didn't want a fire based character; I wanted, and have used for years, a poison based one. Now my main has gone along with the way I played.