Solo Dungeons will Kill the MMO.

jm42 · January 9

other games have story modes like forever and most of the dungeons are soloable as it is if you put a bit of effort. story mode just removes the effort, so what's the problem?

Blood_again · January 9

These things related to 4-people dungeons were told to kill the MMO:
- guaranteed monster hat drop
- dungeon loot trade with group
- separating "type II" dungeons from vet
- One Tamriel with no more level of dungeons
- Bolgrul with solo Undaunted quests
- golden trader in Cyrodiil
- retraiting a gear
- collection with curated drop

You know what? I'm still running the dungeons, and they are not empty yet

Nemesis7884 · January 9

I think story dungeons are a great addition and would also line to see private instances for delves and public dungeons...

This will in no way kill tge mmo....many ppl enjoy multi and single player content but might want to switch from one to the other depending how they feel any given day...

gusthermopyle · January 9

tomofhyrule wrote: »

the people who move to TES6 will still need to come back to ESO to get what TES6 doesn't have. Which is group content.

Just gonna offer a different perspective here.

I like playing solo content in a game with other people around. I can solo overland content, and sometimes another player will join in - world bosses are a good example of this. I don't have to engage with what might be considered "group" content to enjoy the fact that Tamriel is populated by other players.

The main thing that attracted me to ESO was the fact that group content is optional within the construct of the game, and I can play solo or choose to interact with others.

Just need to accept that people play differently to you, and that doesn't mean anything bad is going to happen.

SkaiFaith · January 9

The dichotomy.

For every player asking more group content there's one asking no-group content.

It's always best to simply give the options and let the players decide.
Being able to choose if to solo a dungeon in story mode or to get a trifecta achievement in group is the best solution. Not excluding one nor the other. Players' choice.

rothan117 · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

Single player games are once and done, MMOs get updates and expansions that allow you to play the same game and the characters for years (decades even). I have been playing ESO since 2016 and WoW since 2008 (and LOTRO since 2009). There are no single player games where I could play the same game and characters/classes for that long and have new content added to the existing game.

MMO really means lots of people online together at the same time, nothing more. Nothing about forced grouping. It enables a lot of things besides grouping up for group content, including crafting for other players, trade between players creating an economy and socialization (which is not solely driven by grouping.) 90% of the people I have on my friends list are people I have never run group content with.

And there are probably others like me, who used to run lots of group content in various MMOs but no longer do so. But we still like the persistent world environment. I stopped running group content due to both boredom with the formulaic group content across MMOs and the ever increasing toxicity of a certain portion of the group content players who are intolerant of mistakes, wipes or variant builds that are not what they perceive to be the optimal one for the role.

And lets be honest with ourselves, without the casual solo crowd who mostly never come to the echo chamber of the forums, ESO would not get enough money to stay open. ZOS has realized this just as Blizzard has, which is why both are adding substantial amounts of solo content. They want to keep those players that pay the bills and keep the lights on.

Gabriel_H · January 9

Solo dungeons are there for 2 reasons:

Fill the demands from some players from a story mode
Be the new solo arena type content

Neither of those break from the model ESO has been using, so won't affect anything.

They are going to be slow released, as they do not have the internal resources to do them quicker, drip feeding the demand for story mode, and filling in the gap of lack of arena content.

My only concern - the lack of group dungeons in that roadmap, it's a HUGE mistake by ZOS.

Lord_Hev · January 9

I'm keeping a neutral view on this. On one-hand I always liked the idea of a solo story mode of a dungeon. On the other hand, I prefer more the ability to push my limits by trying to solo /duo/3-man dungeons. The only thing that really prevented that were arbitrary forced mechanics like needing two or more for a pressure plate or unbreakable CCs.

I think if solo dungeons provide monster helms, then it would be a negative. Group dungeons should be required for it. And ofc obviously the associated group achievements.

Gabriel_H · January 9

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The only thing that really prevented that were arbitrary forced mechanics like needing two or more for a pressure plate or unbreakable CCs..

Just to say, you can game some of the pressure plates, with things like charge and timed attacks. Unbreakable CCs are rendered meaningless with the Psijic Order ultimate.

Edit: Typos

AzuraFan · January 9

It won't kill ESO. There are solo dungeons in other MMOs that have been around before ESO and will likely be around after it.

BardokRedSnow · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

The point for me is options. There's too many times where I want to do something in eso but cant because either my schedule gives me free time when everyone else is at work still, or I am just not in the mood to talk with people, which is often lol. I like the option of playing with others or myself.

Thats why IA is so fun, its fun alone and better with others. Solo content wont kill ESO, anymore than questing does. Its designed to be played alone already, you can quest with others and I have but its glitchy and too easy also.

Are yall not exhausted having to always deal with other people for everything? This is why solo builds for pve are so popular, and companions for that matter.

Also, I personally do play single player games as well but I dont think telling people to go to another game when the player count is dropping is a good marketing strategy for Zos.

BardokRedSnow · January 9

Sylosi wrote: »

zombievalen wrote: »

It's incredible that an MMO community celebrates playing dungeons solo when you can play them in any offline game.

The only thing incredible is that some people think that 4 man content is "massively multiplayer" and that 4-man content set outside of the persistent world in its own instance is "MMORPG". It shows how far themepark "MMORPGs" have moved away from being actual MMORPGs in order to accommodate people who don't want an MMORPG, but want content more like a co-op game or normal multiplayer.

The only things somewhat MMORPG in this game are the economy, Cyrodiil/IC, open world, etc (except of course the open world in this game is laughable and "world bosses" are a joke that you can solo).

Also true, for me the most fun Ive had in this game is pvp, which is tons of player interaction, and (controversial take maybe) that writhing fortress public dungeon they released in Solstice. I would personally rather have more stuff like that, than more four man dungeons. Can have both but I'd be playing the former more if it was a regular thing... and they ironed out the glitches.

CalamityCat · January 9

Players who don't want to play with a group already play solo and have been for a while now, so this isn't going to end the MMO bit. It honestly doesn't exist much in dungeons, I rarely see groups who can even say "hi!" It's often a lot of fake role players who speed run and really don't seem to notice they're actually IN a group at all.

Some players don't care for group dungeons because they've had bad experiences with those groups. No amount of force will make them want to deal with randoms again. Once you have enough transmutes and have whatever stickerbook and achievements you want, there is no actual reason to re-run dungeons anyway.

Dungeons are just one activity in this game. I rarely do group dungeons or trials, but I do enjoy group PvP and I will group up during events and engage with my guilds. If anyone says they need help with a vet DLC or they need to repeat run to fill their stickerbook, I'll join in. So I'm not avoiding the MMO thing, I love it. But I will be selective in who I play with if I have limited game time and I'm playing ESO to relax.

Malyore · January 9

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

I have. Those are a dry well by this point.
I am biding my time until Elder Scrolls 6 comes out. I've already played through all of the other games and have used the same character throughout. Since my character is currently in ESO, that's where I am, and have been for 5 years now.
This game also aims to support solo play through its quests. It's not strictly a multiplayer experience.

It is also an elder scrolls game. Don't forget that.

It's also an MMO.

Here's the fun part: when TES6 releases, a lot of the players who want the solo content will drop ESO like a hot potato and go over there. That means TES6's release will literally kill ESO.

If people want ESO to survive, then ESO needs to offer something that TES6 will not offer, and then the people who move to TES6 will still need to come back to ESO to get what TES6 doesn't have. Which is group content.

Your argument is actually a wonderful reason why ZOS should cater almost exclusively to the MMO crowd: you're only here until TES6 comes out (and because this is an Elder Scrolls game and TES6 is not out, they have you no matter what they do). But players who are here for the group content stuff are the ones who are not likely to leave contingent on a different game releasing.

(also I do note the number of people who seem to not understand that people can like the Elder Scrolls series and enjoy the multiplayer aspect of ESO since it's unique. And because of that, they necessarily need to have different mechanics.)

Yes, it being an MMO is a main point that the OP mentioned, which is why I felt it important to highlight it is an MMO built upon the elder scrolls franchise. If this game was not elder scrolls and was its own thing... I do not know what the games audience would look like. Like you said, ESO has me "no matter what they do". With all of the difficulties the developers and game have had, I wonder if they would still have that power to retain if they were not elder scrolls.

I will drop this game like a hot potato when ES6 comes out. But that's not just because this is as an MMO, as I said it's also elder scrolls and offers a lot of solo content. The main problem is the quality of that elder scrolls aspect. The MMO influence seems to really challenge ZOS in creating experiences, stories, designs, and lore, that actually fits the franchise it dares to wield. If the game had better solo content and things that actually felt like elder scrolls, with the driven updates that an MMO brings, I would likely want to return to ESO on my alternate character in order to experience the game. But the stories are getting worse and worse in recent years. And so the MMO aspects remain. Things such as queueing for a long time, only to then speed run the dungeons over and over again; or going through the cycle of being part of an active guild, only for it to crumble as the game updates in ways people don't like... These experiences are not going to keep me wanting to come back to ESO.

Good stories and elder scrolls content would keep me here, if ZOS are able to get a grip and improve themselves as they are now hoping to do. And increasing the accessibility of that content, in the form of additional solo play, would make it more likely for me to stay engaged.

MaraxusTheOrc · January 9

When I queue for normal dungeons they may as well be solo dungeons. Nobody communicates, fake tanks and fake healers, and people just sprint to the end. I am grateful for solo dungeons. Means those people can get out of my group dungeon experience finally.

Northwold · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

Who says it's not allowed to be played solo? I very much doubt ESO would still be with us today if they hadn't recognised that they have multiple different types of player who come to MMOs for different reasons. One of the big appeals of MMOs is that, unlike many / most single player games they are live service and in continuous development. They also give you the ability to have people around / do group content when you feel like, even if your primary preference is to solo.

CaptainVenom · January 9

> implying people don't run solo VT HM dungeons already.

Cooperharley · January 9

Solo dungeons are objectively a good thing. It’s another modality for the player to choose how to play a game they enjoy when they have time.

What will ultimately affect the rest of the game is rewards included - if you can get the same gear, achievements, etc as you can in group modes, that could change things. I think gear is fine, but the random normal dungeon bonus should be in groups so people still engage with this system in this way.

With my schedule nowadays and a new baby, I don’t have as much time to queue up for dungeons on my dps characters but hopping into solo challenges so I can play immediately when I have time is huge. MMOs are special because sometimes I just want to play solo in a world inhabited by other people so when I want to engage with group activities and talk to other people, I can.

Nestor · January 9

Story Mode Trash Mob and Delve Boss Level Rewards Only. This could include the Dungeon sets, but not the Monster Sets. Although I could understand not getting Dungeon Set Stickers for Story Mode.

Normal or Vet Mode gets all the rewards including the Skill Point.

Only thing I am up in the air on, and perhaps it could be handled by a Story Mode or perhaps a Lore Master Achivement is, well getting an Achievement for completing the story.

Tandor · January 9

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

I have. Those are a dry well by this point.
I am biding my time until Elder Scrolls 6 comes out. I've already played through all of the other games and have used the same character throughout. Since my character is currently in ESO, that's where I am, and have been for 5 years now.
This game also aims to support solo play through its quests. It's not strictly a multiplayer experience.

It is also an elder scrolls game. Don't forget that.

It's also an MMO.

Here's the fun part: when TES6 releases, a lot of the players who want the solo content will drop ESO like a hot potato and go over there. That means TES6's release will literally kill ESO.

A lot of players don't just play ESO, they keep two or three games on the go - in my case, I'm currently playing Cyberpunk 2077 and Where Rivers Meet as well as ESO. The fact that I'm playing them doesn't stop me playing ESO and I still maintain 3 subscriptions. That won't change when TES6 comes out, and I doubt it will make a difference to many other players who will still play ESO along with TES6. Rather than killing ESO, TES6 might actually boost it as new players come to ESO from TES6 as they have done from Skyrim.

Last'One · January 9

I want more difficulty. I want to solo dungeons. I want to play-the-way-I-like. I want to play the game without toxicity about my build, my DPS, my skills, my logs, my parse printscreens....

I just want to play the game.

So every single change ZOS brings to the game that allows me to have fun will be welcome. Because all other “options” we have are just gatekeeping, harassment, bullying, toxicity, and bulls***t.

Neatle · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

Please reconsider your mindset:

There is nothing inherent to MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) that implies players must be compelled to play in a group in order to participate in or complete activities..

Multiplayer game dungeons already differ from solo game dungeons through mechanics such as leaderboards and region-wide challenges and theorycrafting without enforcing mandatory group play

Castagere · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

Why are people like you upset that the game devs want everyone to do content their way? Why is the way you want the only way to play? ESO is based on the single-player TES games. You still have what you want. Most mmos now offer single-player story modes. I will never understand this kind of post.

AScarlato · January 9

I am interested in solo dungeons, but to do once for the story. It's hard to get the story done as is. Elsewise I'd play in a party as that's more fun.

Attorneyatlawl · January 9

EDIT: I'd love to see singleplayer challenge modes that are harder than soloing vets now too, but without the group mechanics you sometimes have to cheese.

I'm wary of the long term implications here and the potential snowball effect... As @Desiato talks about below. I've had those same sorts of comments made to me by people over time.

Castagere · January 10

What a lot of people don't realize is that the mmo community is aging. Younger gamers are not flocking to mmos anymore. The big money makers are Call of Duty, Fortnite, and sports games. Blizzard is seeing this now. They are giving all group content, even raids story modes, and they already have NPC's you can group with to do that content. And it's working well be making the queue times for groups shorter too. All the new expansion content for Midnight is like this. We MMO players like to think we are on top in the gaming community, but we are not.

SilverBride · January 10

zombievalen wrote: »

I think they should focus on making players need to socialize and cooperate more...

Making players need to socialize and cooperate more? Absolutely not. There are many different types of players and they should all be able to play how they like, not how someone else thinks they should.

Desiato · January 10

I agree OP, but it's a dead horse.

The impact won't be felt right away, but down the road.

Over the years, I've heard countless anecdotes from players in the vet trial community about how they started ESO as Skyrim fans and played ESO as a single player game in a bubble until they pushed themselves into group content with dungeons. Stories like this are actually close to the norm than exceptions IMO. The same is true of PVP.

Many of those players would never have gotten over the hump if there was an option available to play dungeons solo.

So a year or two downstream from this change, the end game community will be smaller than it would have been otherwise because there was no nudge to push these players out of their comfort zone.

Why do some players feel that all content must be accessible to them? Why is it not okay for a minority of content to be appealing to only special interest groups like housing, cosmetics, ToT, etc are? I'm happy there are aspects of ESO that others enjoy but I don't. I wish they could feel the same about the things I enjoy.

But whatever, like I said, it is a total dead horse. ZOS will proceed and soon the players who demanded it will move on to the next things: PVE Cyrodiil, PVE IC, Trials and Dungeons with companion groups, etc.... They will never be satisfied if anything isn't ideal for them.

ArchangelIsraphel · January 10

I very much doubt that solo dungeons will kill the "MMO". In fact, they're more likely to aide in player retention. Solo story-mode dungeons are a massively requested feature by solo-playes and group players alike. The reason being? It is extraordinarily difficult to enjoy the stories in higher tier content without tolerant friends and guild members to aide you. Even when they do, the pressure of having other people waiting on you to complete a dialogue can prevent complete immersion.

The truth is, many solo players aren't participating in this group content anyway, because they simply do not want to deal with the way other players behave. A story mode will open the doors of this content to them, meaning that they will have more to do, more reasons to log in and play.

I'm very excited for this particular aspect of the update, as it's something I've advocated for even though I play group content and like it. I plan on replaying every single dungeon quest over again, because now I can do it without feeling as though I'm wasting someone else's time. And after words? I'll return to whatever group content I'm interested in, as a majority of players will, because the rewards for the two modes are going to be different.

And like others before me have said, it is already possible to solo some group dungeons. I highly doubt you'll be losing as many players as you think, because quite a few solo players were already avoiding the group aspect of content to begin with.

If anything, experiencing the story in a relaxed setting might interest them in completing the group content later, especially since they no longer have to worry about missing parts of a story. The friction between the two groups will ease.

Here's the fun part: when TES6 releases, a lot of the players who want the solo content will drop ESO like a hot potato and go over there. That means TES6's release will literally kill ESO.

Not likely. What you have to remember is that "solo players" often are only solo in the sense that they want to complete quests and other content alone. Many solo players are also roleplayers, and will seek out player made group content, such as guild roleplays and interactions with close friends who also roleplay. Some people who are truly solo love the feeling of being alone in a populated world, a concept often refereed to as parallel play.

ESO will -always- offer a unique experience in that it isn't just an MMO, its an MMORPG, and that "RPG" element is often expanded upon by it's player base. I have friends in game who have been playing longer than me, who complete the content solo, but seek out company when they want to roleplay. Several have been playing since release, and while other single player games may pull them away temporarily, they always return to the friends and characters they've grown to love.

Thinking that solo players simply drop MMO's for single player games is really a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamics at play, of what's really drawing those players to the MMO. While not every solo player will be a roleplayer, many of of them have formed a deeper bond to the game than one involving it's mere mechanical aspects. It's a world they like living in, returning to, to feel the heartbeat of the world living and breathing around them.

There are also solo players who simply love the challenge of "going it alone" in a setting where most people need to rely on other people.

These improvements will make ESO a magnet for solo players. And I will say, I was purely a solo player in the beginning, but various changes and improvements over the years drew me into group content. That's been the experience of several of my long-time friends as well. Taking care of you solo player base can make them more curious about group content, because it doesn't feel as though it's their only option. In the long run, I think we'll see both aspects thrive.

Malyore · January 10

Desiato wrote: »

I agree OP, but it's a dead horse.

The impact won't be felt right away, but down the road.

Over the years, I've heard countless anecdotes from players in the vet trial community about how they started ESO as Skyrim fans and played ESO as a single player game in a bubble until they pushed themselves into group content with dungeons. Stories like this are actually close to the norm than exceptions IMO. The same is true of PVP.

Many of those players would never have gotten over the hump if there was an option available to play dungeons solo.

So a year or two downstream from this change, the end game community will be smaller than it would have been otherwise because there was no nudge to push these players out of their comfort zone.

Why do some players feel that all content must be accessible to them? Why is it not okay for a minority of content to be appealing to only special interest groups like housing, cosmetics, ToT, etc are? I'm happy there are aspects of ESO that others enjoy but I don't. I wish they could feel the same about the things I enjoy.

But whatever, like I said, it is a total dead horse. ZOS will proceed and soon the players who demanded it will move on to the next things: PVE Cyrodiil, PVE IC, Trials and Dungeons with companion groups, etc.... They will never be satisfied if anything isn't ideal for them.

The thing for me is I have gotten into groups and guilds after starting as a solo player. I got over that hump. But doing so doesn't change what I'm seeking to do when playing a game, and I don't think that's an exceptional thing. I'm wanting to relax and feel drawn into a fantasy world, not have to interact with other people.

It also doesn't help that many guilds can fade and die as the multiple players we crux our gameplay on fatigue over time. Then I have a long period of solo content, then eventually find another guild in order to get more access to something I want that's locked behind multiplayer. Then that guild eventually dies too. Has happened with PvE, PvP, and Trade guilds that I've been in across 5 years.
Again, that's not what I'm seeking when playing a game. I believe as an elder scrolls game, it's not too drastic to offer solo play for more content. Especially when, apparently, other popular MMOs do too.