Solo Dungeons will Kill the MMO.

zombievalen · January 9

Today, this MMO is special; people play it as "Syrim Online." The community isn't toxic—in fact, it's great—but most are against raids and co-op.
It's incredible that an MMO community celebrates playing dungeons solo when you can play them in any offline game.
I think they should focus on making players need to socialize and cooperate more, and not just instance them alone... that's the essence of every MMO (like WoW, FF, etc.).
If they implement solo dungeons, random dungeons will disappear and the essence of the MMO as well.

spartaxoxo · January 9

Other major MMOs have story modes for dungeons or they have some various forms of safeguards in place to prevent others from being able to force people to skip quest dialogue.

Yet their random dungeons are just fine. Why would this MMO be different? Most of the people in the group dungeons are there for farming or achievements anyway. You only need to enter once to hear the story.

Malyore · January 9

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

SummersetCitizen · January 9

Another major driver behind solo dungeon options is reducing group finder queue times as the overall player population continues to decline.

zombievalen · January 9

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

Soarora · January 9

I don't want to do random dungeons with people who don't want to be there. Give the people solo dungeons so dungeon dungeons can be reinforced as group content (aside from the people who solo dungeons for the challenge, but they're not in the queue anyways) and people can complain less about speedrunners (they cannot be stopped, there's been 27,000 threads on how to stop them and its always the same few suggestions).

Besides, wouldn't it just make DPS queue faster? You can't solo a dungeon as a healer or a tank.

zombievalen · January 9

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Other major MMOs have story modes for dungeons or they have some various forms of safeguards in place to prevent others from being able to force people to skip quest dialogue.

Yet their random dungeons are just fine. Why would this MMO be different? Most of the people in the group dungeons are there for farming or achievements anyway. You only need to enter once to hear the story.

The queues are already long today... with this they're going to be endless.

zombievalen · January 9

Soarora wrote: »

I don't want to do random dungeons with people who don't want to be there. Give the people solo dungeons so dungeon dungeons can be reinforced as group content (aside from the people who solo dungeons for the challenge, but they're not in the queue anyways) and people can complain less about speedrunners (they cannot be stopped, there's been 27,000 threads on how to stop them and its always the same few suggestions).

I still don't understand why you don't play a single-player Skyrim game if people bother you.

spartaxoxo · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Other major MMOs have story modes for dungeons or they have some various forms of safeguards in place to prevent others from being able to force people to skip quest dialogue.

Yet their random dungeons are just fine. Why would this MMO be different? Most of the people in the group dungeons are there for farming or achievements anyway. You only need to enter once to hear the story.

The queues are already long today... with this they're going to be endless.

Most of that is because of the lack of support roles. So that will depend on how many of them it pulls. If these solo dungeons favor dps then it probably won't make a big difference as the queue doesn't lack dps.

Malyore · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

I have. Those are a dry well by this point.
I am biding my time until Elder Scrolls 6 comes out. I've already played through all of the other games and have used the same character throughout. Since my character is currently in ESO, that's where I am, and have been for 5 years now.
This game also aims to support solo play through its quests. It's not strictly a multiplayer experience.

It is also an elder scrolls game. Don't forget that.

Soarora · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I don't want to do random dungeons with people who don't want to be there. Give the people solo dungeons so dungeon dungeons can be reinforced as group content (aside from the people who solo dungeons for the challenge, but they're not in the queue anyways) and people can complain less about speedrunners (they cannot be stopped, there's been 27,000 threads on how to stop them and its always the same few suggestions).

I still don't understand why you don't play a single-player Skyrim game if people bother you.

That's because people don't bother me. Dungeons are my main content. I don't want dungeons to keep being complained about by people who don't want to be there... so with a solo mode for people who find others frustrating, the focus on the 4-man version can be squarely set on the people who do dungeons for the enjoyment of 4-man content.

tomofhyrule · January 9

Malyore wrote: »

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

I have. Those are a dry well by this point.
I am biding my time until Elder Scrolls 6 comes out. I've already played through all of the other games and have used the same character throughout. Since my character is currently in ESO, that's where I am, and have been for 5 years now.
This game also aims to support solo play through its quests. It's not strictly a multiplayer experience.

It is also an elder scrolls game. Don't forget that.

It's also an MMO.

Here's the fun part: when TES6 releases, a lot of the players who want the solo content will drop ESO like a hot potato and go over there. That means TES6's release will literally kill ESO.

If people want ESO to survive, then ESO needs to offer something that TES6 will not offer, and then the people who move to TES6 will still need to come back to ESO to get what TES6 doesn't have. Which is group content.

Your argument is actually a wonderful reason why ZOS should cater almost exclusively to the MMO crowd: you're only here until TES6 comes out (and because this is an Elder Scrolls game and TES6 is not out, they have you no matter what they do). But players who are here for the group content stuff are the ones who are not likely to leave contingent on a different game releasing.

(also I do note the number of people who seem to not understand that people can like the Elder Scrolls series and enjoy the multiplayer aspect of ESO since it's unique. And because of that, they necessarily need to have different mechanics.)

couriersix · January 9

I already solo a lot of 4 man vet dungeons, and there's already solo instances like Malestrom Arena and Vatehsran Hollow. How is a solo instance of a dungeon any different than these? We're also still getting large scale group PVE content, like the Night Market + the upcoming trial. I really don't think solo dungeons will damage the game.

SeaGtGruff · January 9

I don't think being able to solo dungeons will kill group dungeons. It's already possible to solo a lot of group dungeons if one is good enough (as far as being able to stay alive and kill the bosses and mobs), yet this hasn't killed those group dungeons.

Personally, I prefer to solo the group dungeons which I'm able to-- which is currently only a dozen or so of them-- in normal mode. This has allowed me to become familiar with the layouts and occupants of those dungeons, including the mechanics of the mobs and bosses, which means I should be better able to run those particular dungeons as part of a group if I want or need to do so.

In contrast, most of the times when I've agreed to group with other players from my friends list to help them clear one of the group dungeons I have no familiarity with, it hasn't gone well for the group due to my lack of familiarity with the dungeon. I've also had some successful group dungeon runs, but it was challenging-- especially in veteran mode-- and I tended to get lost trying to keep up with the group.

That's the main reason I prefer to solo dungeons if possible-- not because of a desire to avoid playing with other players, but because of not wanting to be a liability and hindrance to the group.

It sounds like maybe the rewards for "story mode" are going to be a bit different than the rewards for "group mode." Rewards are already a bit different for normal mode versus veteran mode, in the sense that completing Undaunted Pledges in normal mode doesn't grant as many Undaunted Keys as veteran mode, plus the final boss doesn't drop monster gear head pieces as veteran mode does. I don't know how the rewards for "story mode" might differ from the rewards for normal mode, but I'm guessing that "story mode" isn't going to significantly detract from players wanting to clear those same dungeons in normal or veteran mode as far as farming the dungeon sets and monster gear, or for attaining any achievements and earning rewards for those achievements.

Attorneyatlawl · January 9

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

I have. Those are a dry well by this point.
I am biding my time until Elder Scrolls 6 comes out. I've already played through all of the other games and have used the same character throughout. Since my character is currently in ESO, that's where I am, and have been for 5 years now.
This game also aims to support solo play through its quests. It's not strictly a multiplayer experience.

It is also an elder scrolls game. Don't forget that.

It's also an MMO.

Here's the fun part: when TES6 releases, a lot of the players who want the solo content will drop ESO like a hot potato and go over there. That means TES6's release will literally kill ESO.

If people want ESO to survive, then ESO needs to offer something that TES6 will not offer, and then the people who move to TES6 will still need to come back to ESO to get what TES6 doesn't have. Which is group content.

Your argument is actually a wonderful reason why ZOS should cater almost exclusively to the MMO crowd: you're only here until TES6 comes out (and because this is an Elder Scrolls game and TES6 is not out, they have you no matter what they do). But players who are here for the group content stuff are the ones who are not likely to leave contingent on a different game releasing.

(also I do note the number of people who seem to not understand that people can like the Elder Scrolls series and enjoy the multiplayer aspect of ESO since it's unique. And because of that, they necessarily need to have different mechanics.)

Well said. The mmo part is what will keep eso alive. That means things like cyrodiil, group-required dungeons, trials, having a thriving economy/trade, etc. Not the same stuff people can and will get from single player games.

Davvy123 · January 9

I want Solo Dungeons in ESO. I have used Dungeon Finder for PUG sessions, but they often are run at breakneck speed, with no time for anyone to explore the dungeon and/or the story/quests associated with the instance. I don't blame the people who want to do those speed runs, I just don't enjoy them myself.

I recently went back to WoW and was amazed to discover their Follower Dungeon mechanic. It starts with something like ESO's Dungeon Finder, where you can enter the role of your toon, then pick a dungeon. The system then creates NPCs that will make up the rest of the group, follow you into the dungeon, and work with you to complete it. I found it very enjoyable and love being able to explore at my own pace, as fast or slow as I want.

FFXIV also has a "Squad" system or something like that, it's been a while since I played there, but I don't think it is as well implemented as what I just found out in WoW.

Estin · January 9

No, I doubt it. People will still do it for transmutes and xp.

The game honestly needs more challenging solo content, and I hope solo dungeons end up being a good option, especially if they have their own rewards. The game only has MA and VH as an option for solo content. Everything else is balanced around 2-4+ players, and you have to deal with the group specific quirks that come with them when soloing them, and you already have plenty of players in the game that do that instead of queuing for random dungeons.

When it comes to rewards, I do wonder how they will handle it. I'm certain story mode will give nothing except upon quest completion and won't be repeatable. Normal and the vet difficulties might give the set drops, though. I wonder how they'll handle doing them repeatedly. Of course I doubt the group related achievements would be given in solo mode, you can't have someone getting True Genius with a much easier method, but solo mode should definitely have its own achievement rewards.

MATH_COW · January 9

A solo mode for dungeons should be there from the begining. A bit a shame it's only now they think about adding it.
Not like it would be hard to manage for the immersion, in every zone in the core game we had those undaunted at a tavern to which we can give a drink and talk about dungeons, going solo mode would group us with them as a group of companions with a tank, a healer and damage dealers. Then just the difficulty to be betwen overland and a public dungeon I guess.

We are talking about a game made from a SOLO franchise. A lot of player came because this is a "The Elder Scrolls" game rather than a "Online" game. Giving this option will be nice for everyone.

And it would not affect pug queue because people who want to do story and look around don't queue with full random, they maybe do it once and then realise everybody rush or go too fast. It would be the same if they decide to add a PvE cyrodiil server to allow people to get skyshard, questing and fishing, it would not reduce that much Cyrodiil population because the people who want to go for it will go only few time, mostly when server are empty, or are procrastinating to go for it because they know it will be long and annoying to run around.

Erickson9610 · January 9

I don't think I'll use the solo dungeon feature, since I can handle the dungeons at much harder difficulties. But, despite this being an MMO, I support more solo-friendly options.

ESO is unique in that it's much more friendly toward people who don't want to group with others, and I believe they'll stick around in ESO even after TES VI releases (if it releases) because of all of the other features unique to ESO that the singleplayer games lack, not all of which involve multiplayer. Plus, people who have spent time in ESO will probably want to continue to invest in their characters, even if more TES games are released.

Radiate77 · January 9

Hopefully solo dungeons free us from Lair of Maarselok farmers in 2027.

LadyLethalla · January 9

I play almost always solo these days, because I a) don't like hassling people, b) don't like grouping with randoms, and c) most of the activities organised by social guild that I'm in, are for the majority of members, who are in EU/UK. I'm in Australia, 8-10 hours ahead depending on the time of year.

So yeah... if I can solo these dungeons, I'll be very happy.

LunaFlora · January 9

solo players are generally not participating in group content.
this gives us more to do

ElvenOverlord · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

I want solo dungeons. I already don't play in groups often, it's usually not fun for me. I've worked for years on fine-tuning my solo build to play.
Being able to engage in dungeons on my own will only keep me playing more of the game. I think this is for a specific audience, one that doesn't already influence the amount of multiplayer activity.

But why don't you play a single-player game then? I think a lot of people don't understand that this is an MMO (even ZoS himself haha)
I say this with all due respect.

Maybe they don’t want to and they don’t have to. Solo elements will not kill the game. Group dungeons will be fine, other forms of group content will be fine. This is aimed towards a specific audience. Let people enjoy what they want to enjoy and you enjoy what you like.

mdjessup4906 · January 9

This isnt gonna kill anything. Its gonna hopefully take away the frustration of people not being able to slow mode the story because theres not enough people out there willing to carry them through.

I learned to solo dungeons originally to hear the story, now I do it for fun too, as well as doing group stuff. I have zero interest playing a designed for solo mode, but im not gonna try to take that from others. This is a long time coming.

Orbital78 · January 9

Have we even heard how it is going to be implemented yet? TBH the livestream was pretty vague on a lot of things which was a bit of a let down. Maybe it missed the details, will we fill stickerbook in solo mode? As it is most of us can solo normals anyway, even the DLC. People are doing hybrid tank builds to solo vet too, personally I would rather just run with friends or a group.

All I know is that having to preload quests and hope they don't bug out isn't very fun. Ideally they would fix most vanilla quests to auto complete like modern DLC quests, but I get that some may want to roleplay the story out. This will give them the option to, and not hold up someone that has done it 100+ times and just wants to get it over with.

GloatingSwine · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

If they implement solo dungeons, random dungeons will disappear and the essence of the MMO as well.

The goal of the random dungeon system is to keep dungeons populated so that the early game dungeons with no good rewards in are still able to be played by new players.

The problem of the random dungeon system is that those new players then get matched with people who have done the same dungeon hundreds of times and just want to rush to the end for their RND reward (having already quit out of Lair of Maarselok once today for being too long), meaning the new player gets a terrible first time experience with the dungeon, especially if they're also trying to do the quest.

So the solution birthed a new problem.

scrappy1342 · January 9

the other two big mmo's you mentioned DO have solo dungeons and it has not taken anything away from groups doing dungeons. if anything it will bring more ppl to the queues eventually. as someone who avoids group content at all costs, now that i can do those dungeons in FF solo, i can go in with no worries, no anxiety and LEARN them before i go in with a random group. prior to the implementation of those solo features, i just did not do the random daily queues.

Sylosi · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

It's incredible that an MMO community celebrates playing dungeons solo when you can play them in any offline game.

The only thing incredible is that some people think that 4 man content is "massively multiplayer" and that 4-man content set outside of the persistent world in its own instance is "MMORPG". It shows how far themepark "MMORPGs" have moved away from being actual MMORPGs in order to accommodate people who don't want an MMORPG, but want content more like a co-op game or normal multiplayer.

The only things somewhat MMORPG in this game are the economy, Cyrodiil/IC, open world, etc (except of course the open world in this game is laughable and "world bosses" are a joke that you can solo).

frogthroat · January 9

zombievalen wrote: »

If they implement solo dungeons, random dungeons will disappear and the essence of the MMO as well.

Depends on how it is implemented.

If there's separate achievements and leaderboards, and if you get, say, Monster sets, motifs and the daily random bonuses (including transmutes) only from the 4 player mode, it's not going anywhere.

WaywardArgonian · January 9

It's by design. I don't think I've seen the official marketing copy refer to ESO as an MMO for a long time now, rather it is being branded as an Online RPG. I don't think there is anything wrong with this necessarily. ESO has had above-average solo-friendliness for the longest time, and many players who gave it a shot over the years did it precisely for this reason, myself included. On the Reddit, one of the most frequent questions from new players is 'can I play this on my own?' Encouraging/forcing players to cooperate more would go against the way they've been building this game for years.

Muizer · January 9

If solo dungeons lead to the demise of group content in ESO, that just means a lot of players have been grouping up out of perceived necessity not because they actually want to. Probably because it is the only way to get certain rewards. IMHO that's another way of saying the group content is just not fun. Let them work on that, then. Personally, I find the award/FOMO driven model an ugly one. Doesn't matter if that is "what MMO's do". From someone who is primarily an ES fan, if that's all ESO had over a future ES VI, it would deserve to die.