1) I wish charm would disappear, because game already has good type of similar CC - fear, the only thing, feared player stays on one place, which is perfectly OK. Fear is unlockable, undodgeable and AoE already. Charm looks like bad decision overall, and moreover, it can stuck you behind textures

2) It is not that powerful combo and it has counterplay. Also, DC is not very good set, so player wearing it loses damage in total. You can play against this combo pretty effectively, to sum it all up.

3) Why there are people complaining about this combo, which requires some buttons to be pressed and not complaining against other combos and sets, which do not require buttons to be pressed? Relequen, Zaan for example. Each set alone will do more damage than all skills combined in a long duel. Relequen requires LA only to work, and it was cancerous set before update, and it became even more cancerous after, and devs was told during entire PTS it will be insane set in PvP, but they changed it anyway. No one (in good health) will duel with player in Relequen now. It is not interesting long fight. Or short, depending on how good you can counterplay Relequen and how good you prepared for it, e.x. if you know in advance opponent will use it.

Pretty the same you can tell about Zaan, and there is one very frustrating thing about it - it is 8meter long according to description, but in fact you need to run very far, more like 12-15 meters to break it, because they changed how it is calculated in some patch long ago, so if opponent will chase you, you will probably be unable to break Zaan at all. Everybody just resigned themselves to it.

4) I would say, this game needs no balance. There are two types of games - either you have one character and play with it, so it would be frustrating to see unbalanced classes, either you have access to everything, so them you can follow "meta" and tweak your gameplay accordingly. Now it is charm/burst meta. Next patch it will be DoT DK meta, and you will forget about charms. If you think, this build is too strong, you can try to play DC + charm yourself, try and see if it is really strong and you will manage to kill other players as they killed you or not. Well, some balance is still needed, that is why they have some base numbers for sets, skills, etc.

It’s usually paired with Rush of Agony, which is far worse than Dark Convergence.

Both should be removed from PvP.

Ball groups can practically go afk when using these two sets.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

It’s usually paired with Rush of Agony, which is far worse than Dark Convergence.

Both should be removed from PvP.

Ball groups can practically go afk when using these two sets.

This has nothing to do with other sets this is simply about charm, please keep the conversation on topic.

Additionally, the biggest issue is the bugs it causes, it gets people stuck in terrain all the time.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I really don’t understand how Warden’s charm (class mastery) is allowed to function the way it does in PvP.

It’s an AoE CC that is:

- Unblockable
- Undodgeable
- Applies a snare
- Guaranteed CC

That alone is already absurd, but when you pair it with Dark Convergence, it becomes completely oppressive. You either get pulled in and stunned or get charmed, and then forced to eat a fully timed burst window with 100% certainty. There is no reaction check. No skill expression. No counterplay. You just die if the other player presses their buttons correctly. What makes this even more frustrating is that every other charm-style ability in the game has counterplay like being blockable.

But for some reason, Warden’s version ignores all of that. Why? Why does one class get a charm that bypasses every core defensive mechanic in ESO PvP?

- Block doesn’t work.
- Roll dodge doesn’t work.
- Positioning doesn’t matter because it’s AoE.

At that point, PvP stops being about decision-making.

If the intent is for charms to be powerful CC tools, fine—but they should follow the same rules as every other charm in the game. Either: make it blockable or make it dodgable. I would prefer it being blockable to be consistent across charm abilities. Right now, it’s just a free, unavoidable setup button that deletes players with zero counterplay. That’s not balance, and it’s definitely not good PvP design.

Curious how this has gone untouched for so long?

wdym roll dodge doesnt work? you can just roll out of the aoe. I have plenty of fights where the player/s im fighting almost never get hit with that charm. And the same goes for me if i care enough to get out of it. People just move out of it because its extremely easy to do so. Its not a huge aoe. Even when its run with the root you either roll out or snare remove and then run out. If you have no movement speed then thats one thing but thats more of a build issue imo. But it deff has counterplay.

imPDA wrote: »

1) I wish charm would disappear, because game already has good type of similar CC - fear, the only thing, feared player stays on one place, which is perfectly OK. Fear is unlockable, undodgeable and AoE already. Charm looks like bad decision overall, and moreover, it can stuck you behind textures

I get the comparison, but fear and Warden charm function very differently in practice, and that difference is exactly why charm is such a problem.

The biggest issue is that Warden charm is delayed. That delay makes it far easier to pre-time burst, because the CC doesn’t happen immediately—it happens on a predictable timer. With fear, the CC is instant. You react the moment it lands, break free, and you’re done. There’s no setup window baked into the ability itself.

With Warden charm, you’re locked into a guaranteed displacement. Whether intended or not, break free feels buggy or delayed—even when you break promptly, the displacement still happens. You don’t just get CC’d, you get moved, and sometimes even clipped into terrain or behind textures. That alone makes it fundamentally different from fear.

Fear:

- Instant application

- You can break free immediately

- No forced displacement

Warden charm:

- Delayed CC (easy to time burst)

- Break free often feels delayed or inconsistent

- Forced displacement

- Can move you into bad positioning or terrain

So while fear is unblockable and undodgeable, it’s also clean and predictable. You know exactly when it happens, and you have full agency to break it instantly. Warden charm removes that agency by design—or at least by how it currently behaves.

That’s why calling charm “just another fear” doesn’t really hold up. The delay, the forced movement, and the inconsistent break free interaction are what push it from strong CC into unhealthy design.

Radiate77 wrote: »

Agreed that it does too much, but I also just want to chime in and say that I appreciate the design of it.

Such a shame that Warden has the only Class Mastery that truly feels unique, whereas every other Mastery functions as a stat boost or a convenience tool (Necro/Arcanist).

I agree, but a class with the ability to mind control another target into running off the nearest ledge to deal massive fall damage to themselves and die would be unique, but not exactly balanced. The charm should at the very least be blockable.

I agree remove charm it’s 100% game breaking and everyone and their moms are running warden because if it and the broken warden pet that cleanse and heals you for free absolutely no thumbs required on warden subclass builds

Let’s be honest, the Warden Mastery script is akin to slotting a stronger Mass Hysteria, and it’s free.

There is no argument to be had about this: either Warden Mastery needs to be toned down, or every other class mastery needs to be brought up.

Personally, I’m all for buffs, but I also understand it would be much easier to just hammer the lone nail.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I really don’t understand how Warden’s charm (class mastery) is allowed to function the way it does in PvP.

It’s an AoE CC that is:

- Unblockable
- Undodgeable
- Applies a snare
- Guaranteed CC

That alone is already absurd, but when you pair it with Dark Convergence, it becomes completely oppressive. You either get pulled in and stunned or get charmed, and then forced to eat a fully timed burst window with 100% certainty. There is no reaction check. No skill expression. No counterplay. You just die if the other player presses their buttons correctly. What makes this even more frustrating is that every other charm-style ability in the game has counterplay like being blockable.

But for some reason, Warden’s version ignores all of that. Why? Why does one class get a charm that bypasses every core defensive mechanic in ESO PvP?

- Block doesn’t work.
- Roll dodge doesn’t work.
- Positioning doesn’t matter because it’s AoE.

At that point, PvP stops being about decision-making.

If the intent is for charms to be powerful CC tools, fine—but they should follow the same rules as every other charm in the game. Either: make it blockable or make it dodgable. I would prefer it being blockable to be consistent across charm abilities. Right now, it’s just a free, unavoidable setup button that deletes players with zero counterplay. That’s not balance, and it’s definitely not good PvP design.

Curious how this has gone untouched for so long?

wdym roll dodge doesnt work? you can just roll out of the aoe. I have plenty of fights where the player/s im fighting almost never get hit with that charm. And the same goes for me if i care enough to get out of it. People just move out of it because its extremely easy to do so. Its not a huge aoe. Even when its run with the root you either roll out or snare remove and then run out. If you have no movement speed then thats one thing but thats more of a build issue imo. But it deff has counterplay.

I disagree, and I think this is based on a misunderstanding of how roll dodge and AoEs actually work in ESO PvP.

First off, you cannot dodge roll out of AoE effects. Roll dodge does not negate ground-based AoEs at all—it only avoids dodgeable, direct hits. Rolling simply moves your character; if the AoE CC is already active, the roll itself provides zero immunity to it. So saying “roll dodge works” here just isn’t accurate.

Yes, you can run out of the AoE, but that’s not the same thing as counterplay. To do that, you have to drop block, and the moment you do, you’re extremely vulnerable to incoming burst. In real fights, that means you’re choosing between:

- Staying in the AoE while blocking and getting CC’d anyway, or

- Dropping block to move and eating the full damage combo

That isn’t a skill-based reaction—it's a forced gamble.

The AoE also applies a snare/root, which further limits your ability to simply “walk out,” especially if you’re mid-animation, bar-swapping, or reacting under latency. In actual PvP scenarios, you’re rarely standing still with nothing else happening when this lands.

Saying “people just move out of it” ignores how combat really flows. Players are:

- Casting abilities

- Blocking pressure

- Managing resources

- Reacting to multiple opponents

You don’t always have the luxury of instantly turning and sprinting, especially when the CC is unblockable and undodgable.

Calling it a “build issue” misses the point as well. Counterplay shouldn’t be “stack movement speed or lose.” Every other charm-style CC in the game respects core defensive mechanics like block or dodge. This one doesn’t, and that’s the problem.

Being able to sometimes avoid it if you see it early isn’t meaningful counterplay. When an AoE CC bypasses block, can’t be dodge rolled, applies a snare, and guarantees CC if it connects, that’s not player error—that’s a design issue.

[snip]

[snip]

ok ill go point by point for you then.

I never said it’s impossible to avoid. I said roll dodge does not counter the AoE CC itself, and that moving out requires dropping block during a pre-timed window, which is the issue. Repositioning ≠ countering the CC.

I thought it was a given that you cannot dodge aoes like this. But i guess its not so ill elaborate again. Ofc you cannot dodge aoes like this. I am clearly just talking about creating distance, not dodging the effect. But like i said before, attempting to dodge roll out of the aoe does 2 things. It creates distance and makes up for your loss of block, replacing it with another form of defense. Yes it will not stop all the damage in the game, but a good amount of it. But the main point is to create distance.

Expedition, immovable pots, and movement speed are external tools, not core counterplay like block or dodge—which every other charm respects.

You're splitting hairs. So streak is fine because its not a charm? Mass hysteria is fine because its not a charm? Where is the counterplay for streak or mass hysteria? And if your answer is that they arent charms, then we can agree to disagree. Because at that point your issue is just with charms in general. And like i said before thats fine, the charmed CC is a little buggy, but that doesnt make the wardens class mastery broken. It just means charms need to be improved.

- You cannot roll dodge AoEs — rolling only mitigates direct damage while repositioning, it does not counter the CC
answered

- The CC is delayed, making burst timing trivial
i disagree

- Break free interaction is inconsistent, and you’re always displaced
thats an issue with charms in general. And im starting to think thats where your real gripe is, with charm in general.

- Avoiding it by stacking speed doesn’t make the design healthy
Running major expedition on a pvp build in 2025 is neither stacking speed or unreasonable. Its just a good idea. But i also dont think the design is unhealthy. As ive said. I would call it easily avoidable. I think its similar to fear or streak. The main difference is that you dont have 2 seconds to get out of those CCs, like you do with warden class mastery. And that its a charm.

Calling it “choices” doesn’t change that it bypasses fundamental defensive mechanics. You may personally avoid it often—and that’s fine—but that doesn’t invalidate the design concerns being raised

Lots of things bypass fundamental defensive mechanics. This isnt an argument. Unless your argument is that unblockable CCs shouldnt exist. Then thats a different conversation.

to me there isnt much difference between wardens class mastery and streak or fear. But as i said before, if your opinion is that it should not be a charm then im right there with you. And i would even go a step further and say zos should just remove charms in general. There was a reason they changed how nightblade fear worked. And now its just basically what charm is, the old nightblade fear.

This is comparable to streak or mass hysteria

I disagree. Streak and Mass Hysteria are instant, direct CCs with immediate break-free expectations and predictable outcomes. Warden class mastery is a delayed AoE charm that applies displacement after a timer, which creates a fundamentally different risk profile and burst setup window. Streak forcibly repositions the caster rather than the target, which inherently disrupts follow-up burst and does negligible damage. Fear has lower range than the charm, is a more reliable and less buggy CC, and does not meaningfully enable burst because it is not delayed. Neither ability allows the caster to preload burst into a guaranteed CC window, and that lack of delay is the critical difference.

The delayed CC makes burst timing trivial — “I disagree”

I disagree with the disagreement. Delayed, predictable CCs are easier, not harder, to line up burst around—especially in coordinated or experienced play. The delay removes uncertainty and allows players to preload damage, ultimates, or procs before the CC resolves. Simply saying “I disagree” is not an argument; disagreement without mechanical justification does not refute the claim.

Major Expedition in 2025 PvP is normal and sufficient

I disagree. While Major Expedition is common, it is still a build tax, not universal counterplay. Requiring players to maintain Major Expedition specifically to answer a single CC highlights a design imbalance rather than resolving one. The implication that players should keep Major Expedition up 24/7, or avoid casting abilities just in case a charm is used so they can immediately trigger Expedition plus snare removal and sprint out, is an obviously unreasonable expectation that undermines normal combat flow.

Unblockable CCs existing makes this a weak argument

I disagree. The issue isn’t merely that the CC is unblockable; it’s that it is AoE, delayed, charm-based, displacing, and inconsistent on break free all at once. This charm also ties directly into Contingency, which delivers a significant amount of AoE burst. Other unblockable CCs generally have meaningful downsides or clear counterplay, while this interaction lacks comparable tradeoffs.

Removing charms in general would solve it

I disagree. Removing charms might paper over part of the problem, but it does not address why delayed AoE CCs that bypass fundamental defensive mechanics feel bad to play against in the first place. Even without the charm classification, the same issues would remain: delayed resolution, forced displacement, unreliable break free interaction, and burst pre-buffering with minimal counterplay.

If you want to go further, the real productive question becomes which specific tradeoff this ability should have—removing the delay, removing displacement, limiting AoE coverage, or enforcing reliable break free—rather than treating it as equivalent to existing CCs that operate very differently.
[edited to remove quote]

I think all of your claims are so incredibly wrong, and tbh im not sure i want to even try to argue about it on a forum post. I guess first, idk why you think the delay on the cc is such a game changer. Its like your saying people cant/couldnt get by without it, when its just not the case. The delay on the cc is just so trivial i cannot fathom why its something you find so important. You can claim it is, but unfortunately it just does not play out that way in game. And the same goes for your claim about "pre loading" damage because of the delay. Like i said, its extremely trivial, it just does not make the difference you think it does compared to a normal, similar, cc.

A CC is a CC. Your claim that fear doesnt enable burst because it is not delayed, assuming you need a delayed cc for burst, is just outlandish. Your claim about streak is also silly when you add range into the equation. And your claim that unblockable/undodgeable ccs have some kind of counterplay is just strange. if you are hit with streak, for example, and are not CC immune, there is no counterplay, you will be CCd.

Honestly this discussion has become pointless. im not trying to go around in circles again and again with multiple people. Were just so completely at separate sides of the issue its a waste of time. And i think most of your claims are so wrong that it just seems like we must be playing different games. As ive said multiple times, i think the only issue with this skill is the fact that its a charm. Because charms are inherently glitchy in eso. Its the reason the CC is hard to break. Its the reason people sometimes glitch into the mesh or under the map. And by the same token, i think your claim that the same issues would still exist, if the charm was replaced by a different CC type, is completely wrong.

And if you dont think the cc break is an issue on charms just have an arcanist use their charm and you will see. Otherwise i think that wardens class mastery is perfectly fine on whatever skill its put on. I have no issue using it, or fighting against it, and tbh i just cannot relate to people who think it cannot be avoided, or that its too strong. Tbh i find it too easy to avoid when fighting good players. Its rare that it even lands once in those type of 1v1 fights.

IMO the reason why people get upset at this skill is simple. First, because the charm can be annoying to break sometimes. And Second, because many people in eso love to chase people around towers (for whatever reason) and this skill, specifically with the root on it, makes doing that a lot more difficult. Thats basically it. Zos will do what they will do, but for the life of me i just cannot understand how people struggle with this skill.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I really don’t understand how Warden’s charm (class mastery) is allowed to function the way it does in PvP.

It’s an AoE CC that is:

- Unblockable
- Undodgeable
- Applies a snare
- Guaranteed CC

That alone is already absurd, but when you pair it with Dark Convergence, it becomes completely oppressive. You either get pulled in and stunned or get charmed, and then forced to eat a fully timed burst window with 100% certainty. There is no reaction check. No skill expression. No counterplay. You just die if the other player presses their buttons correctly. What makes this even more frustrating is that every other charm-style ability in the game has counterplay like being blockable.

But for some reason, Warden’s version ignores all of that. Why? Why does one class get a charm that bypasses every core defensive mechanic in ESO PvP?

- Block doesn’t work.
- Roll dodge doesn’t work.
- Positioning doesn’t matter because it’s AoE.

At that point, PvP stops being about decision-making.

If the intent is for charms to be powerful CC tools, fine—but they should follow the same rules as every other charm in the game. Either: make it blockable or make it dodgable. I would prefer it being blockable to be consistent across charm abilities. Right now, it’s just a free, unavoidable setup button that deletes players with zero counterplay. That’s not balance, and it’s definitely not good PvP design.

Curious how this has gone untouched for so long?

wdym roll dodge doesnt work? you can just roll out of the aoe. I have plenty of fights where the player/s im fighting almost never get hit with that charm. And the same goes for me if i care enough to get out of it. People just move out of it because its extremely easy to do so. Its not a huge aoe. Even when its run with the root you either roll out or snare remove and then run out. If you have no movement speed then thats one thing but thats more of a build issue imo. But it deff has counterplay.

I disagree, and I think this is based on a misunderstanding of how roll dodge and AoEs actually work in ESO PvP.

First off, you cannot dodge roll out of AoE effects. Roll dodge does not negate ground-based AoEs at all—it only avoids dodgeable, direct hits. Rolling simply moves your character; if the AoE CC is already active, the roll itself provides zero immunity to it. So saying “roll dodge works” here just isn’t accurate.

Yes, you can run out of the AoE, but that’s not the same thing as counterplay. To do that, you have to drop block, and the moment you do, you’re extremely vulnerable to incoming burst. In real fights, that means you’re choosing between:

- Staying in the AoE while blocking and getting CC’d anyway, or

- Dropping block to move and eating the full damage combo

That isn’t a skill-based reaction—it's a forced gamble.

The AoE also applies a snare/root, which further limits your ability to simply “walk out,” especially if you’re mid-animation, bar-swapping, or reacting under latency. In actual PvP scenarios, you’re rarely standing still with nothing else happening when this lands.

Saying “people just move out of it” ignores how combat really flows. Players are:

- Casting abilities

- Blocking pressure

- Managing resources

- Reacting to multiple opponents

You don’t always have the luxury of instantly turning and sprinting, especially when the CC is unblockable and undodgable.

Calling it a “build issue” misses the point as well. Counterplay shouldn’t be “stack movement speed or lose.” Every other charm-style CC in the game respects core defensive mechanics like block or dodge. This one doesn’t, and that’s the problem.

Being able to sometimes avoid it if you see it early isn’t meaningful counterplay. When an AoE CC bypasses block, can’t be dodge rolled, applies a snare, and guarantees CC if it connects, that’s not player error—that’s a design issue.

[snip]

[snip]

ok ill go point by point for you then.

I never said it’s impossible to avoid. I said roll dodge does not counter the AoE CC itself, and that moving out requires dropping block during a pre-timed window, which is the issue. Repositioning ≠ countering the CC.

I thought it was a given that you cannot dodge aoes like this. But i guess its not so ill elaborate again. Ofc you cannot dodge aoes like this. I am clearly just talking about creating distance, not dodging the effect. But like i said before, attempting to dodge roll out of the aoe does 2 things. It creates distance and makes up for your loss of block, replacing it with another form of defense. Yes it will not stop all the damage in the game, but a good amount of it. But the main point is to create distance.

Expedition, immovable pots, and movement speed are external tools, not core counterplay like block or dodge—which every other charm respects.

You're splitting hairs. So streak is fine because its not a charm? Mass hysteria is fine because its not a charm? Where is the counterplay for streak or mass hysteria? And if your answer is that they arent charms, then we can agree to disagree. Because at that point your issue is just with charms in general. And like i said before thats fine, the charmed CC is a little buggy, but that doesnt make the wardens class mastery broken. It just means charms need to be improved.

- You cannot roll dodge AoEs — rolling only mitigates direct damage while repositioning, it does not counter the CC
answered

- The CC is delayed, making burst timing trivial
i disagree

- Break free interaction is inconsistent, and you’re always displaced
thats an issue with charms in general. And im starting to think thats where your real gripe is, with charm in general.

- Avoiding it by stacking speed doesn’t make the design healthy
Running major expedition on a pvp build in 2025 is neither stacking speed or unreasonable. Its just a good idea. But i also dont think the design is unhealthy. As ive said. I would call it easily avoidable. I think its similar to fear or streak. The main difference is that you dont have 2 seconds to get out of those CCs, like you do with warden class mastery. And that its a charm.

Calling it “choices” doesn’t change that it bypasses fundamental defensive mechanics. You may personally avoid it often—and that’s fine—but that doesn’t invalidate the design concerns being raised

Lots of things bypass fundamental defensive mechanics. This isnt an argument. Unless your argument is that unblockable CCs shouldnt exist. Then thats a different conversation.

to me there isnt much difference between wardens class mastery and streak or fear. But as i said before, if your opinion is that it should not be a charm then im right there with you. And i would even go a step further and say zos should just remove charms in general. There was a reason they changed how nightblade fear worked. And now its just basically what charm is, the old nightblade fear.

This is comparable to streak or mass hysteria

I disagree. Streak and Mass Hysteria are instant, direct CCs with immediate break-free expectations and predictable outcomes. Warden class mastery is a delayed AoE charm that applies displacement after a timer, which creates a fundamentally different risk profile and burst setup window. Streak forcibly repositions the caster rather than the target, which inherently disrupts follow-up burst and does negligible damage. Fear has lower range than the charm, is a more reliable and less buggy CC, and does not meaningfully enable burst because it is not delayed. Neither ability allows the caster to preload burst into a guaranteed CC window, and that lack of delay is the critical difference.

The delayed CC makes burst timing trivial — “I disagree”

I disagree with the disagreement. Delayed, predictable CCs are easier, not harder, to line up burst around—especially in coordinated or experienced play. The delay removes uncertainty and allows players to preload damage, ultimates, or procs before the CC resolves. Simply saying “I disagree” is not an argument; disagreement without mechanical justification does not refute the claim.

Major Expedition in 2025 PvP is normal and sufficient

I disagree. While Major Expedition is common, it is still a build tax, not universal counterplay. Requiring players to maintain Major Expedition specifically to answer a single CC highlights a design imbalance rather than resolving one. The implication that players should keep Major Expedition up 24/7, or avoid casting abilities just in case a charm is used so they can immediately trigger Expedition plus snare removal and sprint out, is an obviously unreasonable expectation that undermines normal combat flow.

Unblockable CCs existing makes this a weak argument

I disagree. The issue isn’t merely that the CC is unblockable; it’s that it is AoE, delayed, charm-based, displacing, and inconsistent on break free all at once. This charm also ties directly into Contingency, which delivers a significant amount of AoE burst. Other unblockable CCs generally have meaningful downsides or clear counterplay, while this interaction lacks comparable tradeoffs.

Removing charms in general would solve it

I disagree. Removing charms might paper over part of the problem, but it does not address why delayed AoE CCs that bypass fundamental defensive mechanics feel bad to play against in the first place. Even without the charm classification, the same issues would remain: delayed resolution, forced displacement, unreliable break free interaction, and burst pre-buffering with minimal counterplay.

If you want to go further, the real productive question becomes which specific tradeoff this ability should have—removing the delay, removing displacement, limiting AoE coverage, or enforcing reliable break free—rather than treating it as equivalent to existing CCs that operate very differently.
[edited to remove quote]

I think all of your claims are so incredibly wrong, and tbh im not sure i want to even try to argue about it on a forum post. I guess first, idk why you think the delay on the cc is such a game changer. Its like your saying people cant/couldnt get by without it, when its just not the case. The delay on the cc is just so trivial i cannot fathom why its something you find so important. You can claim it is, but unfortunately it just does not play out that way in game. And the same goes for your claim about "pre loading" damage because of the delay. Like i said, its extremely trivial, it just does not make the difference you think it does compared to a normal, similar, cc.

A CC is a CC. Your claim that fear doesnt enable burst because it is not delayed, assuming you need a delayed cc for burst, is just outlandish. Your claim about streak is also silly when you add range into the equation. And your claim that unblockable/undodgeable ccs have some kind of counterplay is just strange. if you are hit with streak, for example, and are not CC immune, there is no counterplay, you will be CCd.

Honestly this discussion has become pointless. im not trying to go around in circles again and again with multiple people. Were just so completely at separate sides of the issue its a waste of time. And i think most of your claims are so wrong that it just seems like we must be playing different games. As ive said multiple times, i think the only issue with this skill is the fact that its a charm. Because charms are inherently glitchy in eso. Its the reason the CC is hard to break. Its the reason people sometimes glitch into the mesh or under the map. And by the same token, i think your claim that the same issues would still exist, if the charm was replaced by a different CC type, is completely wrong.

And if you dont think the cc break is an issue on charms just have an arcanist use their charm and you will see. Otherwise i think that wardens class mastery is perfectly fine on whatever skill its put on. I have no issue using it, or fighting against it, and tbh i just cannot relate to people who think it cannot be avoided, or that its too strong. Tbh i find it too easy to avoid when fighting good players. Its rare that it even lands once in those type of 1v1 fights.

IMO the reason why people get upset at this skill is simple. First, because the charm can be annoying to break sometimes. And Second, because many people in eso love to chase people around towers (for whatever reason) and this skill, specifically with the root on it, makes doing that a lot more difficult. Thats basically it. Zos will do what they will do, but for the life of me i just cannot understand how people struggle with this skill.

1. “The delay on the CC is trivial” — this is objectively wrong in ESO terms

Calling the delay “trivial” ignores how ESO actually handles burst windows, animation locks, and server timing. A delayed CC is not just “a CC that happens later.” It changes when resources are committed, when immunity is applied, and when damage can be queued relative to break free and dodge checks.

The entire concept of preloading damage exists because of delayed effects. You don’t need it to be life-changing in every fight for it to be impactful. That’s a strawman. The argument is not “players can’t function without delayed CC,” it’s that delayed CCs:

- allow abilities to be cast before CC immunity applies,

- let burst land during server frames where counterplay is already locked out,

- interact differently with dodge roll and block checks.

You saying “it just doesn’t play out that way in game” is not an argument — it’s an assertion with no mechanics behind it.

2. Your fear vs delayed CC argument is internally inconsistent

You accuse me of saying delayed CC is required for burst, but that’s not what I'm arguing. I'm saying delayed CC enables safer, more reliable burst, with little option for counterplay, not that burst is impossible without it.

Fear or steak:

- applies immediately,

- applies immunity immediately,

- gives the target immediate break-free timing.

- Puts you on global cooldown when cast, which doesn't allow for other abilities to be cast for 1 second

Delayed CC:

- lets damage land before immunity,

- compresses counterplay into a narrower window,

- punishes reaction instead of prediction.

Those are not equivalent. At all. Pretending they are is either misunderstanding or bad faith.

3. The “we must be playing different games” line is a cop-out

This is where the argument stops being about mechanics and starts being about frustration. Saying “we must be playing different games” is just a way to disengage without addressing the substance.

If multiple people are independently describing the same mechanical issues — delay timing, charm bugs, CC break inconsistency — then the odds that everyone else is wrong and you alone see reality correctly are… not great.

4. “Good players avoid it” is not a balance argument

Every broken or overtuned skill in ESO history has had someone say:

- “good players don’t get hit by it,”

- “it rarely lands in my 1v1s,”

- “just don’t chase towers.”

That argument would justify literally any skill no matter how oppressive, as long as it can theoretically be avoided. Balance is about what happens when it does land, how reliable it is, and how much counterplay exists after the cast — not whether perfect players can avoid it in ideal duels.

PvP is not just honorable 1v1s with spacing and anticipation.

Final point

You rely heavily on:

- “it feels trivial to me,”

- “I don’t struggle with it,”

- “good players avoid it,”

and very little on:

- server timing,

- immunity frames,

- break-free behavior,

- CC type distinctions.

That’s why the disagreement feels irreconcilable. You’re arguing from personal experience, emotion, and frustration tolerance, while I and many others are arguing from mechanical interaction, logic, and consistency.

And no — you’re not “just playing different games.” You’re just minimizing systems you personally don’t find punishing, while dismissing the fact that those systems behave differently under the hood than you claim.

Ive argued in circles in this thread for days. You have an issue with making claims and expecting that people will take it as facts. Ive tried arguing with logic and ive tried arguing with personal experience. It doesn't matter either way because some of what you believe to be logic i believe to be silly, and vice versa. Plus arguing on a forum like this, across multiple days, is pointless. But if you want to keep going i will.

- compresses counterplay into a narrower window,

You have ignored this but ill say it again, there is no counterplay to any unblockable CCs, as ive said before. So if anything this skill brings counterplay to the table where unblockable ccs are concerned. Plus what do you base this conclusion on? Where is the window? Is it the 2 seconds before i fear you? Whats the difference between the 2 seconds before i fear you and the 2 seconds that you're sitting in my aoe waiting to be charmed? The only difference i see is that in one scenario you know you will be CCd and can do something to counter it, and in the other scenario you dont know the cc is coming.

The GCD argument is like half valid, but not really because, again, it does not make the skill over powered. The only thing you gain with a delayed CC vs something like petrify, for example, is the GCD you are saving when you go to burst someone. Petrify-incap-bow becomes concealed-incap-bow, because you have freed up the CC GCD by casting it 2 seconds earlier. But again, this does not make the skill over powered, and saying it does ignores the risks. Its easily telegraphed, easily avoided, and you can easily be killed within that 2 second window. This is the give and take of having skills that do different things in a game, because not everyone wants everything to be the same.

- punishes reaction instead of prediction.

how does an easily telegraphed, easily avoidable, CC, punish reaction? If anything it gives more reactionary counterplay than any of the similar CCs in game. And even if i conceded this point to you, the 1 skill you can land is not meaningful enough to call this a negative impact or interaction, especially considering the counterplay it offers. Like simply removing yourself from the aoe.

- allow abilities to be cast before CC immunity applies,
that goes both ways. you see it coming, you react. And i just dont see this as the same issue that you see it as. But you can try to explain why this is such a major issue for you.

- let burst land during server frames where counterplay is already locked out,
You say burst but you mean a single skill. Some skills, because you couldnt do this with all skills. At least if i understand what you mean by this. You mean someone launching a spectral bow, for example, at the exact precisely timed moment that the charm is about to hit. So that the person has to take the bow. Sure, this is true but I just dont think it is an actual issue that makes the skill broken.

Its the same idea with meteor. Fear meteor, petrify meteor. You can CC someone right as the meteor hits and make them take the full damage Should that be on the chopping block next? Do people complain about that these days? No. Just because something is delayed does not make it broken. Its just different. And we can agree to disagree about that, but if zos thought it was broken meteor would not be delayed. And another one that comes to mind is overload/streak. Or even snipe. This is not a new concept.

- interact differently with dodge roll and block checks.
This may be true but different does not mean bad or overpowered.

Fear or steak:

- applies immediately,
yes which gives it zero counterplay. Does that mean unblockable, undogeable CCs are broken? Over tuned? Because there is no way to avoid it? Or is it just different.

- applies immunity immediately,
Ill have to fact check this later. But even if this is accurate I would say first it really wouldnt be high up on my list of big issues, because you should be immediately breaking CC. And if you arent you are probably dead anyway. Yes there are other factors at play, like CP, but that brings my to my next point. This would just be an issue with charm, again. Which is why i think its so strange you wont conceded that changing the CC to something other than charm would improve the skill.

- gives the target immediate break-free timing.
You can break free immediately. If a CC break issue happens its because charms cause it on occasion. Just like with the arcanist charm. But if there is no issue you can break free just as fast as any other CC. Ill also point out that CCs in general, in eso, can be buggy. Knock backs like javaline can be extremely buggy, skills that knock you up into the air, like meteor, can be extremely buggy and more often than not will put you into a wall/ceiling if you are near one. CCs in general in lag have break free issues. This is far from a perfect game, especially in cyrodiil.

You rely heavily on:

- “it feels trivial to me,”
misrepresenting

- “I don’t struggle with it,”
true

- “good players avoid it,”
true

and very little on:

- server timing,
covered

- immunity frames,
you have not proven anything about this to have a meaningful impact

- break-free behavior,
covered

- CC type distinctions.
obvious

pointing out anecdotal arguments i made, in the course of a gigantic back and forth over the course of multiple days, while ignoring logical points that are not anecdotal, does not make any of the points invalid. You also fail to realize that most of the arguments you are making, that you would like to pretend are logical fact, are unproven and unconvincing. When i use the word trivial i am talking about something that is a very small distinction or difference. You have to prove how a small difference turns into this skill being over powered. And imo you have failed to do so.

You have the burden of proof. You have to prove to this dev team that there is an issue with this skill, and you have not. Especially when you compare this skill to other CCs. Differences? Yes. Positives and negatives? Yes. But issues that make it broken? No.

You say other people describe the same issues, and yet plenty of people dont have an issue. Charm bugs, sure as ive said on occasion. But delay timing? A non issue. And CC break issues fall into the category of charm bugs, or vice versa. It is an issue with charms. None of these things are sufficient enough to prove there is a problem, opposed to differences. Plus all of these things are easily verified in game. I can prove the skill is easily avoided, or that it can be broken just as fast as any other CC. And you could prove some things as well, like that yes there is an extra GCD within the 2 seconds before the CC goes off. But that doesnt prove that its an issue.

You can go search the forums and find people complain about any skill they dont know how to deal with, or dont like dealing with, that does not make it broken.

And as i also said, you completely ignore the down sides to running a CC like this. Which is what balance is. Risk vs reward. You have to prove either A, that the skill has issues that are so game breaking compared to other skills in this game, that it needs to be adjusted, or B, that the skill has positives/rewards that outweigh the negatives/risks to running a skill like this. And i dont think you have done either of these things.

Basically the only points i see that have any validity are the extra GCD you have vs a non delayed CC, the potential fraction of a second you have to get off certain skills right before the CC lands, and the fact that charm has some issues. None of these things make this skill broken or over powered. Especially when you consider the risks of the skill. They just make the skill different. By your logic meteor should be on the chopping block next. But it wont be, because its not impacting the ability of zergs to chase people around keeps/towers like this skill does. Which is also why so many people complain about the root.

You have failed to prove that any of the differences of this skill, besides charm, cause any meaningful issues. But fear not, it will probably end up getting nerfed, like many things over the years that players complained about because they did not understand how to fight against it. The skill has way more counterplay, and risk, than any other similar CC in the game. The extremely small, or trivial, window of timing it gives you to get an extra skill off does not make it broken or over powered. And any issues with the CC, or CC break on rare occasion, can be attributed to charm. And remedied by removing charm from the skill or game, and replacing it with another CC type.

JohnRingo wrote: »

All due respect, Gents, but the Charm skill, in my opinion, is much lower of a PvP concern than, for example, over tuned burst combos that delete players inside a single CC window with minimal telegraph or counterplay. Charm is situational, breaks on damage, and is largely handled through basic awareness, positioning, and standard CC counters rather than deciding fights on its own. Bigger fish to fry, here.

I disagree. If Charm happens to send you traveling in the same direction that you were already moving, then it can take several seconds to realize that you are no longer using your skills and attempt to break free, which can also take a few seconds. Even if you do realize fairly quickly, you lose seconds to react. Despite someone trying to silence me on Rush of Agony, the very next thing you are going to be hit with after Charm is RoA, and you will unable to react and block that. Guaranteed.

Lagzee wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I really don’t understand how Warden’s charm (class mastery) is allowed to function the way it does in PvP.

It’s an AoE CC that is:

- Unblockable
- Undodgeable
- Applies a snare
- Guaranteed CC

That alone is already absurd, but when you pair it with Dark Convergence, it becomes completely oppressive. You either get pulled in and stunned or get charmed, and then forced to eat a fully timed burst window with 100% certainty. There is no reaction check. No skill expression. No counterplay. You just die if the other player presses their buttons correctly. What makes this even more frustrating is that every other charm-style ability in the game has counterplay like being blockable.

But for some reason, Warden’s version ignores all of that. Why? Why does one class get a charm that bypasses every core defensive mechanic in ESO PvP?

- Block doesn’t work.
- Roll dodge doesn’t work.
- Positioning doesn’t matter because it’s AoE.

At that point, PvP stops being about decision-making.

If the intent is for charms to be powerful CC tools, fine—but they should follow the same rules as every other charm in the game. Either: make it blockable or make it dodgable. I would prefer it being blockable to be consistent across charm abilities. Right now, it’s just a free, unavoidable setup button that deletes players with zero counterplay. That’s not balance, and it’s definitely not good PvP design.

Curious how this has gone untouched for so long?

wdym roll dodge doesnt work? you can just roll out of the aoe. I have plenty of fights where the player/s im fighting almost never get hit with that charm. And the same goes for me if i care enough to get out of it. People just move out of it because its extremely easy to do so. Its not a huge aoe. Even when its run with the root you either roll out or snare remove and then run out. If you have no movement speed then thats one thing but thats more of a build issue imo. But it deff has counterplay.

I disagree, and I think this is based on a misunderstanding of how roll dodge and AoEs actually work in ESO PvP.

First off, you cannot dodge roll out of AoE effects. Roll dodge does not negate ground-based AoEs at all—it only avoids dodgeable, direct hits. Rolling simply moves your character; if the AoE CC is already active, the roll itself provides zero immunity to it. So saying “roll dodge works” here just isn’t accurate.

Yes, you can run out of the AoE, but that’s not the same thing as counterplay. To do that, you have to drop block, and the moment you do, you’re extremely vulnerable to incoming burst. In real fights, that means you’re choosing between:

- Staying in the AoE while blocking and getting CC’d anyway, or

- Dropping block to move and eating the full damage combo

That isn’t a skill-based reaction—it's a forced gamble.

The AoE also applies a snare/root, which further limits your ability to simply “walk out,” especially if you’re mid-animation, bar-swapping, or reacting under latency. In actual PvP scenarios, you’re rarely standing still with nothing else happening when this lands.

Saying “people just move out of it” ignores how combat really flows. Players are:

- Casting abilities

- Blocking pressure

- Managing resources

- Reacting to multiple opponents

You don’t always have the luxury of instantly turning and sprinting, especially when the CC is unblockable and undodgable.

Calling it a “build issue” misses the point as well. Counterplay shouldn’t be “stack movement speed or lose.” Every other charm-style CC in the game respects core defensive mechanics like block or dodge. This one doesn’t, and that’s the problem.

Being able to sometimes avoid it if you see it early isn’t meaningful counterplay. When an AoE CC bypasses block, can’t be dodge rolled, applies a snare, and guarantees CC if it connects, that’s not player error—that’s a design issue.

[snip]

[snip]

ok ill go point by point for you then.

I never said it’s impossible to avoid. I said roll dodge does not counter the AoE CC itself, and that moving out requires dropping block during a pre-timed window, which is the issue. Repositioning ≠ countering the CC.

I thought it was a given that you cannot dodge aoes like this. But i guess its not so ill elaborate again. Ofc you cannot dodge aoes like this. I am clearly just talking about creating distance, not dodging the effect. But like i said before, attempting to dodge roll out of the aoe does 2 things. It creates distance and makes up for your loss of block, replacing it with another form of defense. Yes it will not stop all the damage in the game, but a good amount of it. But the main point is to create distance.

Expedition, immovable pots, and movement speed are external tools, not core counterplay like block or dodge—which every other charm respects.

You're splitting hairs. So streak is fine because its not a charm? Mass hysteria is fine because its not a charm? Where is the counterplay for streak or mass hysteria? And if your answer is that they arent charms, then we can agree to disagree. Because at that point your issue is just with charms in general. And like i said before thats fine, the charmed CC is a little buggy, but that doesnt make the wardens class mastery broken. It just means charms need to be improved.

- You cannot roll dodge AoEs — rolling only mitigates direct damage while repositioning, it does not counter the CC
answered

- The CC is delayed, making burst timing trivial
i disagree

- Break free interaction is inconsistent, and you’re always displaced
thats an issue with charms in general. And im starting to think thats where your real gripe is, with charm in general.

- Avoiding it by stacking speed doesn’t make the design healthy
Running major expedition on a pvp build in 2025 is neither stacking speed or unreasonable. Its just a good idea. But i also dont think the design is unhealthy. As ive said. I would call it easily avoidable. I think its similar to fear or streak. The main difference is that you dont have 2 seconds to get out of those CCs, like you do with warden class mastery. And that its a charm.

Calling it “choices” doesn’t change that it bypasses fundamental defensive mechanics. You may personally avoid it often—and that’s fine—but that doesn’t invalidate the design concerns being raised

Lots of things bypass fundamental defensive mechanics. This isnt an argument. Unless your argument is that unblockable CCs shouldnt exist. Then thats a different conversation.

to me there isnt much difference between wardens class mastery and streak or fear. But as i said before, if your opinion is that it should not be a charm then im right there with you. And i would even go a step further and say zos should just remove charms in general. There was a reason they changed how nightblade fear worked. And now its just basically what charm is, the old nightblade fear.

This is comparable to streak or mass hysteria

I disagree. Streak and Mass Hysteria are instant, direct CCs with immediate break-free expectations and predictable outcomes. Warden class mastery is a delayed AoE charm that applies displacement after a timer, which creates a fundamentally different risk profile and burst setup window. Streak forcibly repositions the caster rather than the target, which inherently disrupts follow-up burst and does negligible damage. Fear has lower range than the charm, is a more reliable and less buggy CC, and does not meaningfully enable burst because it is not delayed. Neither ability allows the caster to preload burst into a guaranteed CC window, and that lack of delay is the critical difference.

The delayed CC makes burst timing trivial — “I disagree”

I disagree with the disagreement. Delayed, predictable CCs are easier, not harder, to line up burst around—especially in coordinated or experienced play. The delay removes uncertainty and allows players to preload damage, ultimates, or procs before the CC resolves. Simply saying “I disagree” is not an argument; disagreement without mechanical justification does not refute the claim.

Major Expedition in 2025 PvP is normal and sufficient

I disagree. While Major Expedition is common, it is still a build tax, not universal counterplay. Requiring players to maintain Major Expedition specifically to answer a single CC highlights a design imbalance rather than resolving one. The implication that players should keep Major Expedition up 24/7, or avoid casting abilities just in case a charm is used so they can immediately trigger Expedition plus snare removal and sprint out, is an obviously unreasonable expectation that undermines normal combat flow.

Unblockable CCs existing makes this a weak argument

I disagree. The issue isn’t merely that the CC is unblockable; it’s that it is AoE, delayed, charm-based, displacing, and inconsistent on break free all at once. This charm also ties directly into Contingency, which delivers a significant amount of AoE burst. Other unblockable CCs generally have meaningful downsides or clear counterplay, while this interaction lacks comparable tradeoffs.

Removing charms in general would solve it

I disagree. Removing charms might paper over part of the problem, but it does not address why delayed AoE CCs that bypass fundamental defensive mechanics feel bad to play against in the first place. Even without the charm classification, the same issues would remain: delayed resolution, forced displacement, unreliable break free interaction, and burst pre-buffering with minimal counterplay.

If you want to go further, the real productive question becomes which specific tradeoff this ability should have—removing the delay, removing displacement, limiting AoE coverage, or enforcing reliable break free—rather than treating it as equivalent to existing CCs that operate very differently.
[edited to remove quote]

I think all of your claims are so incredibly wrong, and tbh im not sure i want to even try to argue about it on a forum post. I guess first, idk why you think the delay on the cc is such a game changer. Its like your saying people cant/couldnt get by without it, when its just not the case. The delay on the cc is just so trivial i cannot fathom why its something you find so important. You can claim it is, but unfortunately it just does not play out that way in game. And the same goes for your claim about "pre loading" damage because of the delay. Like i said, its extremely trivial, it just does not make the difference you think it does compared to a normal, similar, cc.

A CC is a CC. Your claim that fear doesnt enable burst because it is not delayed, assuming you need a delayed cc for burst, is just outlandish. Your claim about streak is also silly when you add range into the equation. And your claim that unblockable/undodgeable ccs have some kind of counterplay is just strange. if you are hit with streak, for example, and are not CC immune, there is no counterplay, you will be CCd.

Honestly this discussion has become pointless. im not trying to go around in circles again and again with multiple people. Were just so completely at separate sides of the issue its a waste of time. And i think most of your claims are so wrong that it just seems like we must be playing different games. As ive said multiple times, i think the only issue with this skill is the fact that its a charm. Because charms are inherently glitchy in eso. Its the reason the CC is hard to break. Its the reason people sometimes glitch into the mesh or under the map. And by the same token, i think your claim that the same issues would still exist, if the charm was replaced by a different CC type, is completely wrong.

And if you dont think the cc break is an issue on charms just have an arcanist use their charm and you will see. Otherwise i think that wardens class mastery is perfectly fine on whatever skill its put on. I have no issue using it, or fighting against it, and tbh i just cannot relate to people who think it cannot be avoided, or that its too strong. Tbh i find it too easy to avoid when fighting good players. Its rare that it even lands once in those type of 1v1 fights.

IMO the reason why people get upset at this skill is simple. First, because the charm can be annoying to break sometimes. And Second, because many people in eso love to chase people around towers (for whatever reason) and this skill, specifically with the root on it, makes doing that a lot more difficult. Thats basically it. Zos will do what they will do, but for the life of me i just cannot understand how people struggle with this skill.

1. “The delay on the CC is trivial” — this is objectively wrong in ESO terms

Calling the delay “trivial” ignores how ESO actually handles burst windows, animation locks, and server timing. A delayed CC is not just “a CC that happens later.” It changes when resources are committed, when immunity is applied, and when damage can be queued relative to break free and dodge checks.

The entire concept of preloading damage exists because of delayed effects. You don’t need it to be life-changing in every fight for it to be impactful. That’s a strawman. The argument is not “players can’t function without delayed CC,” it’s that delayed CCs:

- allow abilities to be cast before CC immunity applies,

- let burst land during server frames where counterplay is already locked out,

- interact differently with dodge roll and block checks.

You saying “it just doesn’t play out that way in game” is not an argument — it’s an assertion with no mechanics behind it.

2. Your fear vs delayed CC argument is internally inconsistent

You accuse me of saying delayed CC is required for burst, but that’s not what I'm arguing. I'm saying delayed CC enables safer, more reliable burst, with little option for counterplay, not that burst is impossible without it.

Fear or steak:

- applies immediately,

- applies immunity immediately,

- gives the target immediate break-free timing.

- Puts you on global cooldown when cast, which doesn't allow for other abilities to be cast for 1 second

Delayed CC:

- lets damage land before immunity,

- compresses counterplay into a narrower window,

- punishes reaction instead of prediction.

Those are not equivalent. At all. Pretending they are is either misunderstanding or bad faith.

3. The “we must be playing different games” line is a cop-out

This is where the argument stops being about mechanics and starts being about frustration. Saying “we must be playing different games” is just a way to disengage without addressing the substance.

If multiple people are independently describing the same mechanical issues — delay timing, charm bugs, CC break inconsistency — then the odds that everyone else is wrong and you alone see reality correctly are… not great.

4. “Good players avoid it” is not a balance argument

Every broken or overtuned skill in ESO history has had someone say:

- “good players don’t get hit by it,”

- “it rarely lands in my 1v1s,”

- “just don’t chase towers.”

That argument would justify literally any skill no matter how oppressive, as long as it can theoretically be avoided. Balance is about what happens when it does land, how reliable it is, and how much counterplay exists after the cast — not whether perfect players can avoid it in ideal duels.

PvP is not just honorable 1v1s with spacing and anticipation.

Final point

You rely heavily on:

- “it feels trivial to me,”

- “I don’t struggle with it,”

- “good players avoid it,”

and very little on:

- server timing,

- immunity frames,

- break-free behavior,

- CC type distinctions.

That’s why the disagreement feels irreconcilable. You’re arguing from personal experience, emotion, and frustration tolerance, while I and many others are arguing from mechanical interaction, logic, and consistency.

And no — you’re not “just playing different games.” You’re just minimizing systems you personally don’t find punishing, while dismissing the fact that those systems behave differently under the hood than you claim.

Ive argued in circles in this thread for days. You have an issue with making claims and expecting that people will take it as facts. Ive tried arguing with logic and ive tried arguing with personal experience. It doesn't matter either way because some of what you believe to be logic i believe to be silly, and vice versa. Plus arguing on a forum like this, across multiple days, is pointless. But if you want to keep going i will.

- compresses counterplay into a narrower window,

You have ignored this but ill say it again, there is no counterplay to any unblockable CCs, as ive said before. So if anything this skill brings counterplay to the table where unblockable ccs are concerned. Plus what do you base this conclusion on? Where is the window? Is it the 2 seconds before i fear you? Whats the difference between the 2 seconds before i fear you and the 2 seconds that you're sitting in my aoe waiting to be charmed? The only difference i see is that in one scenario you know you will be CCd and can do something to counter it, and in the other scenario you dont know the cc is coming.

The GCD argument is like half valid, but not really because, again, it does not make the skill over powered. The only thing you gain with a delayed CC vs something like petrify, for example, is the GCD you are saving when you go to burst someone. Petrify-incap-bow becomes concealed-incap-bow, because you have freed up the CC GCD by casting it 2 seconds earlier. But again, this does not make the skill over powered, and saying it does ignores the risks. Its easily telegraphed, easily avoided, and you can easily be killed within that 2 second window. This is the give and take of having skills that do different things in a game, because not everyone wants everything to be the same.

- punishes reaction instead of prediction.

how does an easily telegraphed, easily avoidable, CC, punish reaction? If anything it gives more reactionary counterplay than any of the similar CCs in game. And even if i conceded this point to you, the 1 skill you can land is not meaningful enough to call this a negative impact or interaction, especially considering the counterplay it offers. Like simply removing yourself from the aoe.

- allow abilities to be cast before CC immunity applies,
that goes both ways. you see it coming, you react. And i just dont see this as the same issue that you see it as. But you can try to explain why this is such a major issue for you.

- let burst land during server frames where counterplay is already locked out,
You say burst but you mean a single skill. Some skills, because you couldnt do this with all skills. At least if i understand what you mean by this. You mean someone launching a spectral bow, for example, at the exact precisely timed moment that the charm is about to hit. So that the person has to take the bow. Sure, this is true but I just dont think it is an actual issue that makes the skill broken.

Its the same idea with meteor. Fear meteor, petrify meteor. You can CC someone right as the meteor hits and make them take the full damage Should that be on the chopping block next? Do people complain about that these days? No. Just because something is delayed does not make it broken. Its just different. And we can agree to disagree about that, but if zos thought it was broken meteor would not be delayed. And another one that comes to mind is overload/streak. Or even snipe. This is not a new concept.

- interact differently with dodge roll and block checks.
This may be true but different does not mean bad or overpowered.

Fear or steak:

- applies immediately,
yes which gives it zero counterplay. Does that mean unblockable, undogeable CCs are broken? Over tuned? Because there is no way to avoid it? Or is it just different.

- applies immunity immediately,
Ill have to fact check this later. But even if this is accurate I would say first it really wouldnt be high up on my list of big issues, because you should be immediately breaking CC. And if you arent you are probably dead anyway. Yes there are other factors at play, like CP, but that brings my to my next point. This would just be an issue with charm, again. Which is why i think its so strange you wont conceded that changing the CC to something other than charm would improve the skill.

- gives the target immediate break-free timing.
You can break free immediately. If a CC break issue happens its because charms cause it on occasion. Just like with the arcanist charm. But if there is no issue you can break free just as fast as any other CC. Ill also point out that CCs in general, in eso, can be buggy. Knock backs like javaline can be extremely buggy, skills that knock you up into the air, like meteor, can be extremely buggy and more often than not will put you into a wall/ceiling if you are near one. CCs in general in lag have break free issues. This is far from a perfect game, especially in cyrodiil.

You rely heavily on:

- “it feels trivial to me,”
misrepresenting

- “I don’t struggle with it,”
true

- “good players avoid it,”
true

and very little on:

- server timing,
covered

- immunity frames,
you have not proven anything about this to have a meaningful impact

- break-free behavior,
covered

- CC type distinctions.
obvious

pointing out anecdotal arguments i made, in the course of a gigantic back and forth over the course of multiple days, while ignoring logical points that are not anecdotal, does not make any of the points invalid. You also fail to realize that most of the arguments you are making, that you would like to pretend are logical fact, are unproven and unconvincing. When i use the word trivial i am talking about something that is a very small distinction or difference. You have to prove how a small difference turns into this skill being over powered. And imo you have failed to do so.

You have the burden of proof. You have to prove to this dev team that there is an issue with this skill, and you have not. Especially when you compare this skill to other CCs. Differences? Yes. Positives and negatives? Yes. But issues that make it broken? No.

You say other people describe the same issues, and yet plenty of people dont have an issue. Charm bugs, sure as ive said on occasion. But delay timing? A non issue. And CC break issues fall into the category of charm bugs, or vice versa. It is an issue with charms. None of these things are sufficient enough to prove there is a problem, opposed to differences. Plus all of these things are easily verified in game. I can prove the skill is easily avoided, or that it can be broken just as fast as any other CC. And you could prove some things as well, like that yes there is an extra GCD within the 2 seconds before the CC goes off. But that doesnt prove that its an issue.

You can go search the forums and find people complain about any skill they dont know how to deal with, or dont like dealing with, that does not make it broken.

And as i also said, you completely ignore the down sides to running a CC like this. Which is what balance is. Risk vs reward. You have to prove either A, that the skill has issues that are so game breaking compared to other skills in this game, that it needs to be adjusted, or B, that the skill has positives/rewards that outweigh the negatives/risks to running a skill like this. And i dont think you have done either of these things.

Basically the only points i see that have any validity are the extra GCD you have vs a non delayed CC, the potential fraction of a second you have to get off certain skills right before the CC lands, and the fact that charm has some issues. None of these things make this skill broken or over powered. Especially when you consider the risks of the skill. They just make the skill different. By your logic meteor should be on the chopping block next. But it wont be, because its not impacting the ability of zergs to chase people around keeps/towers like this skill does. Which is also why so many people complain about the root.

You have failed to prove that any of the differences of this skill, besides charm, cause any meaningful issues. But fear not, it will probably end up getting nerfed, like many things over the years that players complained about because they did not understand how to fight against it. The skill has way more counterplay, and risk, than any other similar CC in the game. The extremely small, or trivial, window of timing it gives you to get an extra skill off does not make it broken or over powered. And any issues with the CC, or CC break on rare occasion, can be attributed to charm. And remedied by removing charm from the skill or game, and replacing it with another CC type.

1. “There is no counterplay to any unblockable CCs” — this is incomplete and misleading

Yes, once an unblockable CC connects and you are not CC immune, there is no reactive counterplay at that exact moment.
That is true for all unblockable CCs. What you continue to ignore is how those CCs are accessed and paid for.

Other unblockable CCs:

- require you to slot an actual CC ability

- consume your global cooldown at the moment the CC occurs

- force you to choose CC instead of burst in that instant

That tradeoff is not cosmetic. When you Petrify, Fear, Fossilize, Javelin, or Streak someone, the CC itself is your GCD.
You are not simultaneously free-casting follow-up damage. The delayed CC breaks that rule by shifting the GCD cost earlier,
outside the burst window. That is a real mechanical advantage, not a preference.

2. “This skill adds counterplay compared to other unblockable CCs” — it does not

The “counterplay” you describe exists only before the CC happens:

- leaving the AoE

- predicting the CC

- disengaging early

That is not reactive counterplay. That is pre-emptive avoidance. Once the CC actually fires, it is still unblockable,
undodgeable, and immediate. At that moment, it behaves exactly like every other unblockable CC — except the caster
is not on GCD and can immediately burst.

So no, this skill does not add counterplay where unblockable CCs are concerned. It removes counterplay during the
most important moment, which is the burst window.

3. “What’s the difference between two seconds before fear and two seconds in an AoE?”

The difference is not knowledge — it is timing and commitment.

With Fear or Petrify:

- the CC occurs when the skill is pressed

- immunity is applied immediately

- the caster is on GCD at the moment of CC

- burst must wait

With the delayed CC:

- the CC timing is decoupled from the cast

- immunity is delayed

- the caster is not on GCD when the CC applies

- burst can occur at the exact frame the CC lands

That is the difference. The CC is no longer competing with burst for GCD priority.
That is why this is not “just different.”

4. The GCD argument is not “half valid” — it is central

You concede that the skill frees a GCD compared to non-delayed CCs, then dismiss it as trivial.
In ESO, that dismissal makes no sense.

Burst success is often decided by:

- a single GCD

- a single animation

- a fraction of a second before break free or dodge

Freeing a GCD at the moment the CC applies is not minor. Other CCs must pay that cost in real time.
This one does not.

Risk (telegraphing, AoE, kill window) does not cancel this advantage — those risks exist for many CCs
that do not get a prepaid burst window.

5. “It punishes reaction instead of prediction” — that is exactly the problem

You ask how an easily telegraphed CC can punish reaction. The answer is simple: because reaction matters
after the CC applies, not before.

By the time the CC actually fires:

- block is too late

- dodge is too late

- break free timing is compressed

Your only option was to predict earlier. That is not “more counterplay.”
That is less forgiveness and harsher punishment for reacting instead of predicting.

6. The Meteor comparison still does not work

Meteor:

- costs an ultimate

- is attached to an ultimate ability, not a normal skill slot

- is balanced around massive opportunity cost

- is intentionally slow and high-risk

This skill:

- costs a normal ability slot

- does not require giving up an ultimate

- integrates cleanly into standard burst rotations

Delayed effects existing elsewhere in the game does not justify this implementation, because those effects
are paid for in other ways. This one is not. And if delayed effects alone were enough to justify concern,
Meteor would be everywhere — but it isn’t. It sees limited use precisely because it’s unreliable, expensive,
and inconsistent, whereas this skill is being slotted and used constantly because it integrates cleanly
and reliably into normal burst rotations.

7. Charm bugs are real — but they are not the whole issue

Charm absolutely has break-free and terrain issues. No argument there.
But even if charm were replaced with another CC type tomorrow:

- the prepaid GCD advantage would still exist

- the burst timing compression would still exist

- the immunity delay interaction would still exist

- Charm exacerbates the problem. It does not create it.

8. “Good players avoid it” is still not a balance argument

Good players avoid Incap, Dawnbreaker, Meteor, Fossilize, and Streak too.
That has never been the standard for balance.

Balance is about what happens when:

-equally skilled players interact

- resources and timing are traded

- counterplay exists during the burst window

- Avoidability in ideal scenarios does not invalidate mechanical advantages.

9. This skill should not be treated as equivalent to other CCs

You keep asking why this should be considered an issue.
Here is the direct comparison you keep sidestepping.

Other CCs:

- require a CC to actually be slotted

- require immediate GCD commitment

- force tradeoffs in burst timing

- apply immunity immediately

This skill:

- does not require CC commitment during burst

- does not compete with damage GCDs

- delays immunity

- compresses reaction windows

Those are not cosmetic differences. They are the reason people are criticizing the skill.

Final point

You are right that the skill is “different.” What you have not shown is why those differences should be dismissed
when they remove a fundamental tradeoff that every other unblockable CC must respect.

Calling that “trivial” does not make it trivial. It just means you personally do not value the timing advantage —
and that is not the same thing as it not existing.

imPDA wrote: »

There are at least 2 more delayed unavoidable CCs: NB fear trap and warden Arctic Blast stun. There are a lot of avoidable delayed CCs, and some of them are worse than warden charm.

You probably never saw one of another in action because you are not playing long enough. Both was used previously by some outstanding players. Not they are just out of meta. This topic about delayed CC and burst opportunity is old and the only thing I can say - it is skill issue. It is pretty unique mechanic, but there is nothing you can't handle.

Problems with current charm are:
1) it is easily accessible; you don't need any special skill to use it, so it is widely used and annoying - just deal with it, l2p;
2) break free bug;
3) displacement bug.

Last two can be fixed by replacing charm mechanic with fear mechanic.

IMO this topic is discussed now only because this skill is spread across average PvP enjoyers, so other average PvP enjoyers play against it frequently and just can't learn counterplay and don't want to learn. ZOs made this game too easy and made these people feel like everything should be easy, so when they met steep learning curve, they just can't handle it.

Agreed. As a Warden PvP main, this all feels like a massive over reaction. Calling Warden Charm “overpowered” compared to other mastery skills is mechanically indefensible: it is the only class mastery in ESO that does zero damage, breaks immediately on incoming damage, and provides no burst, DoT, execute pressure, or delayed payoff of any kind. Every other mastery skill applies meaningful damage alongside utility, creating real kill pressure and resource strain, while Charm offers pure, fragile crowd control that costs tempo and actively reduces Warden kill potential. In PvP terms, Charm is a control concession, not a power spike—useful for spacing or resets, but strictly inferior to damage-bearing masteries in any sustained or high-level fight. Frankly, I'll trade ya.

Warden charm is just another victim of subclassing to be honest... the class script wasn't really a problem when scribing was introduced and it made sense that the "frost class" of this MMORPG would have the strongest crowd control as the archetype typically does in RPGs. You didn't have anything too dangerous to combine it with, your class simply excelled with crowd control.

This all went out the window the moment subclassing was introduced, as now you can have things like Merciless Resolve or Blastbones to combine with that strong crowd control.


If the overtuned offence contrast to defense in PvP provided by subclassing is addressed in a proper manner next year I could see warden charm staying as it is right now, but I fail to see how people would suddenly stop combining it with strong burst skills.

Maybe having access to better alternatives playstyle wise (i.e. stronger DoT playstyles and CCs that synergize better with those, more counter abilities like Crystallized Slab vs Merciless and so on) than the delayed CC+burst could be a solution, as well as overall rebalancing of defensive skill lines to provide more counters via passives (adding crit resistance to passives on defensive skill lines for instance, has zero impact on PvE balance) vs the abundance of offensive stats people get nowadays.