Warden class mastery charm breaks PvP rules

MeridiaFavorsMe · December 27

I really don’t understand how Warden’s charm (class mastery) is allowed to function the way it does in PvP.

It’s an AoE CC that is:

- Unblockable
- Undodgeable
- Applies a snare
- Guaranteed CC

That alone is already absurd, but when you pair it with Dark Convergence, it becomes completely oppressive. You either get pulled in and stunned or get charmed, and then forced to eat a fully timed burst window with 100% certainty. There is no reaction check. No skill expression. No counterplay. You just die if the other player presses their buttons correctly. What makes this even more frustrating is that every other charm-style ability in the game has counterplay like being blockable.

But for some reason, Warden’s version ignores all of that. Why? Why does one class get a charm that bypasses every core defensive mechanic in ESO PvP?

- Block doesn’t work.
- Roll dodge doesn’t work.
- Positioning doesn’t matter because it’s AoE.

At that point, PvP stops being about decision-making.

If the intent is for charms to be powerful CC tools, fine—but they should follow the same rules as every other charm in the game. Either: make it blockable or make it dodgable. I would prefer it being blockable to be consistent across charm abilities. Right now, it’s just a free, unavoidable setup button that deletes players with zero counterplay. That’s not balance, and it’s definitely not good PvP design.

Curious how this has gone untouched for so long?

imPDA · December 27

1) I wish charm would disappear, because game already has good type of similar CC - fear, the only thing, feared player stays on one place, which is perfectly OK. Fear is unlockable, undodgeable and AoE already. Charm looks like bad decision overall, and moreover, it can stuck you behind textures

2) It is not that powerful combo and it has counterplay. Also, DC is not very good set, so player wearing it loses damage in total. You can play against this combo pretty effectively, to sum it all up.

3) Why there are people complaining about this combo, which requires some buttons to be pressed and not complaining against other combos and sets, which do not require buttons to be pressed? Relequen, Zaan for example. Each set alone will do more damage than all skills combined in a long duel. Relequen requires LA only to work, and it was cancerous set before update, and it became even more cancerous after, and devs was told during entire PTS it will be insane set in PvP, but they changed it anyway. No one (in good health) will duel with player in Relequen now. It is not interesting long fight. Or short, depending on how good you can counterplay Relequen and how good you prepared for it, e.x. if you know in advance opponent will use it.

Pretty the same you can tell about Zaan, and there is one very frustrating thing about it - it is 8meter long according to description, but in fact you need to run very far, more like 12-15 meters to break it, because they changed how it is calculated in some patch long ago, so if opponent will chase you, you will probably be unable to break Zaan at all. Everybody just resigned themselves to it.

4) I would say, this game needs no balance. There are two types of games - either you have one character and play with it, so it would be frustrating to see unbalanced classes, either you have access to everything, so them you can follow "meta" and tweak your gameplay accordingly. Now it is charm/burst meta. Next patch it will be DoT DK meta, and you will forget about charms. If you think, this build is too strong, you can try to play DC + charm yourself, try and see if it is really strong and you will manage to kill other players as they killed you or not. Well, some balance is still needed, that is why they have some base numbers for sets, skills, etc.

Mojey87 · December 27

to be honest as regular player in cyrodil, majority now run warden with charm , full armored and extreme speed make them trolls for unkillable players.
you find 15 players chasing 1 and unable to to apply any damage while that warden trolls them all and keep running.

after subclassing pvp became a joke where half are bombers and other half are wardens and they really takes away all the fun from pvp since they have no skills to engage in a fight.

as ZOS said, cyrodil is unfixable as this stage and hope we see some nerfs to those overpowered classes/skills.

katanagirl1 · December 27

It’s usually paired with Rush of Agony, which is far worse than Dark Convergence.

Both should be removed from PvP.

Ball groups can practically go afk when using these two sets.

heaven13 · December 27

It's ability to also shove players into objects and get them stuck is extra annoying. Most of the time, there's nothing to be done other than log off because you're also stuck in combat as they ring-around-the-crate and can't be killed so you can't even use the stuck command to free yourself.

Artisian0001 · December 27

katanagirl1 wrote: »

It’s usually paired with Rush of Agony, which is far worse than Dark Convergence.

Both should be removed from PvP.

Ball groups can practically go afk when using these two sets.

This has nothing to do with other sets this is simply about charm, please keep the conversation on topic.

Additionally, the biggest issue is the bugs it causes, it gets people stuck in terrain all the time.

Turtle_Bot · December 28

heaven13 wrote: »

It's ability to also shove players into objects and get them stuck is extra annoying. Most of the time, there's nothing to be done other than log off because you're also stuck in combat as they ring-around-the-crate and can't be killed so you can't even use the stuck command to free yourself.

If they're waiting around the crate keeping you in combat, queue to imperial city then queue back into cyrodiil. It's not ideal (and likely waiting in queue back into cyro if this is during prime time), but it at least allows you to keep playing.

Also this exact reason is why porting in combat should not be removed until bugs like this are permanently fixed.

Anyway, back on topic, the warden class script has been a big issue in PvP since it's release. There's a reason the meta build is warden (animal companions and base class) + NB (assassination) + X (whichever skill line is preferred).
Charm is really buggy right now and (in PvP) you either run it or lose. It also has the unfortunate side-effect of really accentuating the issues with other problematic abilities like spec bow that hits harder than ultimates.

Immovability potions help, but their 66% downtime is really frustrating. I've personally taken to using more stun based champion point slottables, such as major protection when stunned/feared, reduced damage taken while stunned, etc. If I can't break free, I'm going to make it as difficult as possible to kill me while I am trying to break free to give me the best window to actually get out of the charm.

Lagzee · December 28

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I really don’t understand how Warden’s charm (class mastery) is allowed to function the way it does in PvP.

It’s an AoE CC that is:

- Unblockable
- Undodgeable
- Applies a snare
- Guaranteed CC

That alone is already absurd, but when you pair it with Dark Convergence, it becomes completely oppressive. You either get pulled in and stunned or get charmed, and then forced to eat a fully timed burst window with 100% certainty. There is no reaction check. No skill expression. No counterplay. You just die if the other player presses their buttons correctly. What makes this even more frustrating is that every other charm-style ability in the game has counterplay like being blockable.

But for some reason, Warden’s version ignores all of that. Why? Why does one class get a charm that bypasses every core defensive mechanic in ESO PvP?

- Block doesn’t work.
- Roll dodge doesn’t work.
- Positioning doesn’t matter because it’s AoE.

At that point, PvP stops being about decision-making.

If the intent is for charms to be powerful CC tools, fine—but they should follow the same rules as every other charm in the game. Either: make it blockable or make it dodgable. I would prefer it being blockable to be consistent across charm abilities. Right now, it’s just a free, unavoidable setup button that deletes players with zero counterplay. That’s not balance, and it’s definitely not good PvP design.

Curious how this has gone untouched for so long?

wdym roll dodge doesnt work? you can just roll out of the aoe. I have plenty of fights where the player/s im fighting almost never get hit with that charm. And the same goes for me if i care enough to get out of it. People just move out of it because its extremely easy to do so. Its not a huge aoe. Even when its run with the root you either roll out or snare remove and then run out. If you have no movement speed then thats one thing but thats more of a build issue imo. But it deff has counterplay.

MeridiaFavorsMe · December 28

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I really don’t understand how Warden’s charm (class mastery) is allowed to function the way it does in PvP.

It’s an AoE CC that is:

- Unblockable
- Undodgeable
- Applies a snare
- Guaranteed CC

That alone is already absurd, but when you pair it with Dark Convergence, it becomes completely oppressive. You either get pulled in and stunned or get charmed, and then forced to eat a fully timed burst window with 100% certainty. There is no reaction check. No skill expression. No counterplay. You just die if the other player presses their buttons correctly. What makes this even more frustrating is that every other charm-style ability in the game has counterplay like being blockable.

But for some reason, Warden’s version ignores all of that. Why? Why does one class get a charm that bypasses every core defensive mechanic in ESO PvP?

- Block doesn’t work.
- Roll dodge doesn’t work.
- Positioning doesn’t matter because it’s AoE.

At that point, PvP stops being about decision-making.

If the intent is for charms to be powerful CC tools, fine—but they should follow the same rules as every other charm in the game. Either: make it blockable or make it dodgable. I would prefer it being blockable to be consistent across charm abilities. Right now, it’s just a free, unavoidable setup button that deletes players with zero counterplay. That’s not balance, and it’s definitely not good PvP design.

Curious how this has gone untouched for so long?

wdym roll dodge doesnt work? you can just roll out of the aoe. I have plenty of fights where the player/s im fighting almost never get hit with that charm. And the same goes for me if i care enough to get out of it. People just move out of it because its extremely easy to do so. Its not a huge aoe. Even when its run with the root you either roll out or snare remove and then run out. If you have no movement speed then thats one thing but thats more of a build issue imo. But it deff has counterplay.

I disagree, and I think this is based on a misunderstanding of how roll dodge and AoEs actually work in ESO PvP.

First off, you cannot dodge roll out of AoE effects. Roll dodge does not negate ground-based AoEs at all—it only avoids dodgeable, direct hits. Rolling simply moves your character; if the AoE CC is already active, the roll itself provides zero immunity to it. So saying “roll dodge works” here just isn’t accurate.

Yes, you can run out of the AoE, but that’s not the same thing as counterplay. To do that, you have to drop block, and the moment you do, you’re extremely vulnerable to incoming burst. In real fights, that means you’re choosing between:

- Staying in the AoE while blocking and getting CC’d anyway, or

- Dropping block to move and eating the full damage combo

That isn’t a skill-based reaction—it's a forced gamble.

The AoE also applies a snare/root, which further limits your ability to simply “walk out,” especially if you’re mid-animation, bar-swapping, or reacting under latency. In actual PvP scenarios, you’re rarely standing still with nothing else happening when this lands.

Saying “people just move out of it” ignores how combat really flows. Players are:

- Casting abilities

- Blocking pressure

- Managing resources

- Reacting to multiple opponents

You don’t always have the luxury of instantly turning and sprinting, especially when the CC is unblockable and undodgable.

Calling it a “build issue” misses the point as well. Counterplay shouldn’t be “stack movement speed or lose.” Every other charm-style CC in the game respects core defensive mechanics like block or dodge. This one doesn’t, and that’s the problem.

Being able to sometimes avoid it if you see it early isn’t meaningful counterplay. When an AoE CC bypasses block, can’t be dodge rolled, applies a snare, and guarantees CC if it connects, that’s not player error—that’s a design issue.

MeridiaFavorsMe · December 28

imPDA wrote: »

1) I wish charm would disappear, because game already has good type of similar CC - fear, the only thing, feared player stays on one place, which is perfectly OK. Fear is unlockable, undodgeable and AoE already. Charm looks like bad decision overall, and moreover, it can stuck you behind textures

I get the comparison, but fear and Warden charm function very differently in practice, and that difference is exactly why charm is such a problem.

The biggest issue is that Warden charm is delayed. That delay makes it far easier to pre-time burst, because the CC doesn’t happen immediately—it happens on a predictable timer. With fear, the CC is instant. You react the moment it lands, break free, and you’re done. There’s no setup window baked into the ability itself.

With Warden charm, you’re locked into a guaranteed displacement. Whether intended or not, break free feels buggy or delayed—even when you break promptly, the displacement still happens. You don’t just get CC’d, you get moved, and sometimes even clipped into terrain or behind textures. That alone makes it fundamentally different from fear.

Fear:

- Instant application

- You can break free immediately

- No forced displacement

Warden charm:

- Delayed CC (easy to time burst)

- Break free often feels delayed or inconsistent

- Forced displacement

- Can move you into bad positioning or terrain

So while fear is unblockable and undodgeable, it’s also clean and predictable. You know exactly when it happens, and you have full agency to break it instantly. Warden charm removes that agency by design—or at least by how it currently behaves.

That’s why calling charm “just another fear” doesn’t really hold up. The delay, the forced movement, and the inconsistent break free interaction are what push it from strong CC into unhealthy design.

Radiate77 · December 28

Agreed that it does too much, but I also just want to chime in and say that I appreciate the design of it.

Such a shame that Warden has the only Class Mastery that truly feels unique, whereas every other Mastery functions as a stat boost or a convenience tool (Necro/Arcanist).

Artisian0001 · December 28

Radiate77 wrote: »

Agreed that it does too much, but I also just want to chime in and say that I appreciate the design of it.

Such a shame that Warden has the only Class Mastery that truly feels unique, whereas every other Mastery functions as a stat boost or a convenience tool (Necro/Arcanist).

I agree, but a class with the ability to mind control another target into running off the nearest ledge to deal massive fall damage to themselves and die would be unique, but not exactly balanced. The charm should at the very least be blockable.

Lagzee · December 28

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I really don’t understand how Warden’s charm (class mastery) is allowed to function the way it does in PvP.

It’s an AoE CC that is:

- Unblockable
- Undodgeable
- Applies a snare
- Guaranteed CC

That alone is already absurd, but when you pair it with Dark Convergence, it becomes completely oppressive. You either get pulled in and stunned or get charmed, and then forced to eat a fully timed burst window with 100% certainty. There is no reaction check. No skill expression. No counterplay. You just die if the other player presses their buttons correctly. What makes this even more frustrating is that every other charm-style ability in the game has counterplay like being blockable.

But for some reason, Warden’s version ignores all of that. Why? Why does one class get a charm that bypasses every core defensive mechanic in ESO PvP?

- Block doesn’t work.
- Roll dodge doesn’t work.
- Positioning doesn’t matter because it’s AoE.

At that point, PvP stops being about decision-making.

If the intent is for charms to be powerful CC tools, fine—but they should follow the same rules as every other charm in the game. Either: make it blockable or make it dodgable. I would prefer it being blockable to be consistent across charm abilities. Right now, it’s just a free, unavoidable setup button that deletes players with zero counterplay. That’s not balance, and it’s definitely not good PvP design.

Curious how this has gone untouched for so long?

wdym roll dodge doesnt work? you can just roll out of the aoe. I have plenty of fights where the player/s im fighting almost never get hit with that charm. And the same goes for me if i care enough to get out of it. People just move out of it because its extremely easy to do so. Its not a huge aoe. Even when its run with the root you either roll out or snare remove and then run out. If you have no movement speed then thats one thing but thats more of a build issue imo. But it deff has counterplay.

I disagree, and I think this is based on a misunderstanding of how roll dodge and AoEs actually work in ESO PvP.

First off, you cannot dodge roll out of AoE effects. Roll dodge does not negate ground-based AoEs at all—it only avoids dodgeable, direct hits. Rolling simply moves your character; if the AoE CC is already active, the roll itself provides zero immunity to it. So saying “roll dodge works” here just isn’t accurate.

Yes, you can run out of the AoE, but that’s not the same thing as counterplay. To do that, you have to drop block, and the moment you do, you’re extremely vulnerable to incoming burst. In real fights, that means you’re choosing between:

- Staying in the AoE while blocking and getting CC’d anyway, or

- Dropping block to move and eating the full damage combo

That isn’t a skill-based reaction—it's a forced gamble.

The AoE also applies a snare/root, which further limits your ability to simply “walk out,” especially if you’re mid-animation, bar-swapping, or reacting under latency. In actual PvP scenarios, you’re rarely standing still with nothing else happening when this lands.

Saying “people just move out of it” ignores how combat really flows. Players are:

- Casting abilities

- Blocking pressure

- Managing resources

- Reacting to multiple opponents

You don’t always have the luxury of instantly turning and sprinting, especially when the CC is unblockable and undodgable.

Calling it a “build issue” misses the point as well. Counterplay shouldn’t be “stack movement speed or lose.” Every other charm-style CC in the game respects core defensive mechanics like block or dodge. This one doesn’t, and that’s the problem.

Being able to sometimes avoid it if you see it early isn’t meaningful counterplay. When an AoE CC bypasses block, can’t be dodge rolled, applies a snare, and guarantees CC if it connects, that’s not player error—that’s a design issue.

[snip]

[snip]

ok ill go point by point for you then.

I never said it’s impossible to avoid. I said roll dodge does not counter the AoE CC itself, and that moving out requires dropping block during a pre-timed window, which is the issue. Repositioning ≠ countering the CC.

I thought it was a given that you cannot dodge aoes like this. But i guess its not so ill elaborate again. Ofc you cannot dodge aoes like this. I am clearly just talking about creating distance, not dodging the effect. But like i said before, attempting to dodge roll out of the aoe does 2 things. It creates distance and makes up for your loss of block, replacing it with another form of defense. Yes it will not stop all the damage in the game, but a good amount of it. But the main point is to create distance.

Expedition, immovable pots, and movement speed are external tools, not core counterplay like block or dodge—which every other charm respects.

You're splitting hairs. So streak is fine because its not a charm? Mass hysteria is fine because its not a charm? Where is the counterplay for streak or mass hysteria? And if your answer is that they arent charms, then we can agree to disagree. Because at that point your issue is just with charms in general. And like i said before thats fine, the charmed CC is a little buggy, but that doesnt make the wardens class mastery broken. It just means charms need to be improved.

- You cannot roll dodge AoEs — rolling only mitigates direct damage while repositioning, it does not counter the CC
answered

- The CC is delayed, making burst timing trivial
i disagree

- Break free interaction is inconsistent, and you’re always displaced
thats an issue with charms in general. And im starting to think thats where your real gripe is, with charm in general.

- Avoiding it by stacking speed doesn’t make the design healthy
Running major expedition on a pvp build in 2025 is neither stacking speed or unreasonable. Its just a good idea. But i also dont think the design is unhealthy. As ive said. I would call it easily avoidable. I think its similar to fear or streak. The main difference is that you dont have 2 seconds to get out of those CCs, like you do with warden class mastery. And that its a charm.

Calling it “choices” doesn’t change that it bypasses fundamental defensive mechanics. You may personally avoid it often—and that’s fine—but that doesn’t invalidate the design concerns being raised

Lots of things bypass fundamental defensive mechanics. This isnt an argument. Unless your argument is that unblockable CCs shouldnt exist. Then thats a different conversation.

to me there isnt much difference between wardens class mastery and streak or fear. But as i said before, if your opinion is that it should not be a charm then im right there with you. And i would even go a step further and say zos should just remove charms in general. There was a reason they changed how nightblade fear worked. And now its just basically what charm is, the old nightblade fear.
[edited to remove quote]

rlindsey912nub18_ESO · December 28

I agree remove charm it’s 100% game breaking and everyone and their moms are running warden because if it and the broken warden pet that cleanse and heals you for free absolutely no thumbs required on warden subclass builds

Teeba_Shei · December 28

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I really don’t understand how Warden’s charm (class mastery) is allowed to function the way it does in PvP.

It’s an AoE CC that is:

- Unblockable
- Undodgeable
- Applies a snare
- Guaranteed CC

That alone is already absurd, but when you pair it with Dark Convergence, it becomes completely oppressive. You either get pulled in and stunned or get charmed, and then forced to eat a fully timed burst window with 100% certainty. There is no reaction check. No skill expression. No counterplay. You just die if the other player presses their buttons correctly. What makes this even more frustrating is that every other charm-style ability in the game has counterplay like being blockable.

But for some reason, Warden’s version ignores all of that. Why? Why does one class get a charm that bypasses every core defensive mechanic in ESO PvP?

- Block doesn’t work.
- Roll dodge doesn’t work.
- Positioning doesn’t matter because it’s AoE.

At that point, PvP stops being about decision-making.

If the intent is for charms to be powerful CC tools, fine—but they should follow the same rules as every other charm in the game. Either: make it blockable or make it dodgable. I would prefer it being blockable to be consistent across charm abilities. Right now, it’s just a free, unavoidable setup button that deletes players with zero counterplay. That’s not balance, and it’s definitely not good PvP design.

Curious how this has gone untouched for so long?

wdym roll dodge doesnt work? you can just roll out of the aoe. I have plenty of fights where the player/s im fighting almost never get hit with that charm. And the same goes for me if i care enough to get out of it. People just move out of it because its extremely easy to do so. Its not a huge aoe. Even when its run with the root you either roll out or snare remove and then run out. If you have no movement speed then thats one thing but thats more of a build issue imo. But it deff has counterplay.

I disagree, and I think this is based on a misunderstanding of how roll dodge and AoEs actually work in ESO PvP.

First off, you cannot dodge roll out of AoE effects. Roll dodge does not negate ground-based AoEs at all—it only avoids dodgeable, direct hits. Rolling simply moves your character; if the AoE CC is already active, the roll itself provides zero immunity to it. So saying “roll dodge works” here just isn’t accurate.

Yes, you can run out of the AoE, but that’s not the same thing as counterplay. To do that, you have to drop block, and the moment you do, you’re extremely vulnerable to incoming burst. In real fights, that means you’re choosing between:

- Staying in the AoE while blocking and getting CC’d anyway, or

- Dropping block to move and eating the full damage combo

That isn’t a skill-based reaction—it's a forced gamble.

The AoE also applies a snare/root, which further limits your ability to simply “walk out,” especially if you’re mid-animation, bar-swapping, or reacting under latency. In actual PvP scenarios, you’re rarely standing still with nothing else happening when this lands.

Saying “people just move out of it” ignores how combat really flows. Players are:

- Casting abilities

- Blocking pressure

- Managing resources

- Reacting to multiple opponents

You don’t always have the luxury of instantly turning and sprinting, especially when the CC is unblockable and undodgable.

Calling it a “build issue” misses the point as well. Counterplay shouldn’t be “stack movement speed or lose.” Every other charm-style CC in the game respects core defensive mechanics like block or dodge. This one doesn’t, and that’s the problem.

Being able to sometimes avoid it if you see it early isn’t meaningful counterplay. When an AoE CC bypasses block, can’t be dodge rolled, applies a snare, and guarantees CC if it connects, that’s not player error—that’s a design issue.

[snip]

[snip]

ok ill go point by point for you then.

I never said it’s impossible to avoid. I said roll dodge does not counter the AoE CC itself, and that moving out requires dropping block during a pre-timed window, which is the issue. Repositioning ≠ countering the CC.

I thought it was a given that you cannot dodge aoes like this. But i guess its not so ill elaborate again. Ofc you cannot dodge aoes like this. I am clearly just talking about creating distance, not dodging the effect. But like i said before, attempting to dodge roll out of the aoe does 2 things. It creates distance and makes up for your loss of block, replacing it with another form of defense. Yes it will not stop all the damage in the game, but a good amount of it. But the main point is to create distance.

Expedition, immovable pots, and movement speed are external tools, not core counterplay like block or dodge—which every other charm respects.

You're splitting hairs. So streak is fine because its not a charm? Mass hysteria is fine because its not a charm? Where is the counterplay for streak or mass hysteria? And if your answer is that they arent charms, then we can agree to disagree. Because at that point your issue is just with charms in general. And like i said before thats fine, the charmed CC is a little buggy, but that doesnt make the wardens class mastery broken. It just means charms need to be improved.

- You cannot roll dodge AoEs — rolling only mitigates direct damage while repositioning, it does not counter the CC
answered

- The CC is delayed, making burst timing trivial
i disagree

- Break free interaction is inconsistent, and you’re always displaced
thats an issue with charms in general. And im starting to think thats where your real gripe is, with charm in general.

- Avoiding it by stacking speed doesn’t make the design healthy
Running major expedition on a pvp build in 2025 is neither stacking speed or unreasonable. Its just a good idea. But i also dont think the design is unhealthy. As ive said. I would call it easily avoidable. I think its similar to fear or streak. The main difference is that you dont have 2 seconds to get out of those CCs, like you do with warden class mastery. And that its a charm.

Calling it “choices” doesn’t change that it bypasses fundamental defensive mechanics. You may personally avoid it often—and that’s fine—but that doesn’t invalidate the design concerns being raised

Lots of things bypass fundamental defensive mechanics. This isnt an argument. Unless your argument is that unblockable CCs shouldnt exist. Then thats a different conversation.

to me there isnt much difference between wardens class mastery and streak or fear. But as i said before, if your opinion is that it should not be a charm then im right there with you. And i would even go a step further and say zos should just remove charms in general. There was a reason they changed how nightblade fear worked. And now its just basically what charm is, the old nightblade fear.

This is comparable to streak or mass hysteria

I disagree. Streak and Mass Hysteria are instant, direct CCs with immediate break-free expectations and predictable outcomes. Warden class mastery is a delayed AoE charm that applies displacement after a timer, which creates a fundamentally different risk profile and burst setup window. Streak forcibly repositions the caster rather than the target, which inherently disrupts follow-up burst and does negligible damage. Fear has lower range than the charm, is a more reliable and less buggy CC, and does not meaningfully enable burst because it is not delayed. Neither ability allows the caster to preload burst into a guaranteed CC window, and that lack of delay is the critical difference.

The delayed CC makes burst timing trivial — “I disagree”

I disagree with the disagreement. Delayed, predictable CCs are easier, not harder, to line up burst around—especially in coordinated or experienced play. The delay removes uncertainty and allows players to preload damage, ultimates, or procs before the CC resolves. Simply saying “I disagree” is not an argument; disagreement without mechanical justification does not refute the claim.

Major Expedition in 2025 PvP is normal and sufficient

I disagree. While Major Expedition is common, it is still a build tax, not universal counterplay. Requiring players to maintain Major Expedition specifically to answer a single CC highlights a design imbalance rather than resolving one. The implication that players should keep Major Expedition up 24/7, or avoid casting abilities just in case a charm is used so they can immediately trigger Expedition plus snare removal and sprint out, is an obviously unreasonable expectation that undermines normal combat flow.

Unblockable CCs existing makes this a weak argument

I disagree. The issue isn’t merely that the CC is unblockable; it’s that it is AoE, delayed, charm-based, displacing, and inconsistent on break free all at once. This charm also ties directly into Contingency, which delivers a significant amount of AoE burst. Other unblockable CCs generally have meaningful downsides or clear counterplay, while this interaction lacks comparable tradeoffs.

Removing charms in general would solve it

I disagree. Removing charms might paper over part of the problem, but it does not address why delayed AoE CCs that bypass fundamental defensive mechanics feel bad to play against in the first place. Even without the charm classification, the same issues would remain: delayed resolution, forced displacement, unreliable break free interaction, and burst pre-buffering with minimal counterplay.

If you want to go further, the real productive question becomes which specific tradeoff this ability should have—removing the delay, removing displacement, limiting AoE coverage, or enforcing reliable break free—rather than treating it as equivalent to existing CCs that operate very differently.
[edited to remove quote]

Radiate77 · December 28

Let’s be honest, the Warden Mastery script is akin to slotting a stronger Mass Hysteria, and it’s free.

There is no argument to be had about this: either Warden Mastery needs to be toned down, or every other class mastery needs to be brought up.

Personally, I’m all for buffs, but I also understand it would be much easier to just hammer the lone nail.

imPDA · December 28

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

So while fear is unblockable and undodgeable, it’s also clean and predictable. You know exactly when it happens, and you have full agency to break it instantly. Warden charm removes that agency by design—or at least by how it currently behaves.

That’s why calling charm “just another fear” doesn’t really hold up. The delay, the forced movement, and the inconsistent break free interaction are what push it from strong CC into unhealthy design.

Warden charm is also clean and predictable - you can see HUGE AoE, you know the delay, so that is the problem? You can learn timing easily and break free instantly too. You can also easily dodge out or step out if you keep your distance. IDK, as for me, warden charm is not a problem; you can play against it easily. I would make it smaller because of all complaining to make it a little easier to play against, but I am OK with as it is now. As I said, it will be most likely forgotten in next DK update, because meta will go further.

What I wanted to say is that game just does not need new type of CC, "charm" can easily be replaced with fear. So, Warden could place AoE with fear, as Manifestation of Terror from NB, but instead of "trap" mechanic, it could simply fire after N seconds and fear everybody in this area. It would work exactly as it works now, but it would eliminate bug with textures, and it would be simpler from code perspective, as it reuses existing things instead of creating new ones.

ZOS_Icy · December 28

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We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

forum_propagandist · December 28

imPDA wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

So while fear is unblockable and undodgeable, it’s also clean and predictable. You know exactly when it happens, and you have full agency to break it instantly. Warden charm removes that agency by design—or at least by how it currently behaves.

That’s why calling charm “just another fear” doesn’t really hold up. The delay, the forced movement, and the inconsistent break free interaction are what push it from strong CC into unhealthy design.

Warden charm is also clean and predictable - you can see HUGE AoE, you know the delay, so that is the problem? You can learn timing easily and break free instantly too. You can also easily dodge out or step out if you keep your distance. IDK, as for me, warden charm is not a problem; you can play against it easily. I would make it smaller because of all complaining to make it a little easier to play against, but I am OK with as it is now. As I said, it will be most likely forgotten in next DK update, because meta will go further.

What I wanted to say is that game just does not need new type of CC, "charm" can easily be replaced with fear. So, Warden could place AoE with fear, as Manifestation of Terror from NB, but instead of "trap" mechanic, it could simply fire after N seconds and fear everybody in this area. It would work exactly as it works now, but it would eliminate bug with textures, and it would be simpler from code perspective, as it reuses existing things instead of creating new ones.

I don't know about you but personally the warden and arcanist charms are somewhat buggy and take longer to break free from than any other cc. Yes both the warden and arcanist charms have visual indicators allowing players to anticipate when a stun is coming, but it still takes me 1/4 of a second to break free regardless.

Your suggestion for making the warden class mastery a fear is reasonable, but imo it misses the biggest issue which is that its a delayed cc (allowing for burst to be lined up) that stuns through block. Additionally, you can put this stun on a ranged ability and apply a significant debuff like major defile or apply a significant buff to oneself. This Class Mastery massively outperforms the others and changing the cc type isn't an adequate fix.

Lagzee · 1:41AM

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

I really don’t understand how Warden’s charm (class mastery) is allowed to function the way it does in PvP.

It’s an AoE CC that is:

- Unblockable
- Undodgeable
- Applies a snare
- Guaranteed CC

That alone is already absurd, but when you pair it with Dark Convergence, it becomes completely oppressive. You either get pulled in and stunned or get charmed, and then forced to eat a fully timed burst window with 100% certainty. There is no reaction check. No skill expression. No counterplay. You just die if the other player presses their buttons correctly. What makes this even more frustrating is that every other charm-style ability in the game has counterplay like being blockable.

But for some reason, Warden’s version ignores all of that. Why? Why does one class get a charm that bypasses every core defensive mechanic in ESO PvP?

- Block doesn’t work.
- Roll dodge doesn’t work.
- Positioning doesn’t matter because it’s AoE.

At that point, PvP stops being about decision-making.

If the intent is for charms to be powerful CC tools, fine—but they should follow the same rules as every other charm in the game. Either: make it blockable or make it dodgable. I would prefer it being blockable to be consistent across charm abilities. Right now, it’s just a free, unavoidable setup button that deletes players with zero counterplay. That’s not balance, and it’s definitely not good PvP design.

Curious how this has gone untouched for so long?

wdym roll dodge doesnt work? you can just roll out of the aoe. I have plenty of fights where the player/s im fighting almost never get hit with that charm. And the same goes for me if i care enough to get out of it. People just move out of it because its extremely easy to do so. Its not a huge aoe. Even when its run with the root you either roll out or snare remove and then run out. If you have no movement speed then thats one thing but thats more of a build issue imo. But it deff has counterplay.

I disagree, and I think this is based on a misunderstanding of how roll dodge and AoEs actually work in ESO PvP.

First off, you cannot dodge roll out of AoE effects. Roll dodge does not negate ground-based AoEs at all—it only avoids dodgeable, direct hits. Rolling simply moves your character; if the AoE CC is already active, the roll itself provides zero immunity to it. So saying “roll dodge works” here just isn’t accurate.

Yes, you can run out of the AoE, but that’s not the same thing as counterplay. To do that, you have to drop block, and the moment you do, you’re extremely vulnerable to incoming burst. In real fights, that means you’re choosing between:

- Staying in the AoE while blocking and getting CC’d anyway, or

- Dropping block to move and eating the full damage combo

That isn’t a skill-based reaction—it's a forced gamble.

The AoE also applies a snare/root, which further limits your ability to simply “walk out,” especially if you’re mid-animation, bar-swapping, or reacting under latency. In actual PvP scenarios, you’re rarely standing still with nothing else happening when this lands.

Saying “people just move out of it” ignores how combat really flows. Players are:

- Casting abilities

- Blocking pressure

- Managing resources

- Reacting to multiple opponents

You don’t always have the luxury of instantly turning and sprinting, especially when the CC is unblockable and undodgable.

Calling it a “build issue” misses the point as well. Counterplay shouldn’t be “stack movement speed or lose.” Every other charm-style CC in the game respects core defensive mechanics like block or dodge. This one doesn’t, and that’s the problem.

Being able to sometimes avoid it if you see it early isn’t meaningful counterplay. When an AoE CC bypasses block, can’t be dodge rolled, applies a snare, and guarantees CC if it connects, that’s not player error—that’s a design issue.

[snip]

[snip]

ok ill go point by point for you then.

I never said it’s impossible to avoid. I said roll dodge does not counter the AoE CC itself, and that moving out requires dropping block during a pre-timed window, which is the issue. Repositioning ≠ countering the CC.

I thought it was a given that you cannot dodge aoes like this. But i guess its not so ill elaborate again. Ofc you cannot dodge aoes like this. I am clearly just talking about creating distance, not dodging the effect. But like i said before, attempting to dodge roll out of the aoe does 2 things. It creates distance and makes up for your loss of block, replacing it with another form of defense. Yes it will not stop all the damage in the game, but a good amount of it. But the main point is to create distance.

Expedition, immovable pots, and movement speed are external tools, not core counterplay like block or dodge—which every other charm respects.

You're splitting hairs. So streak is fine because its not a charm? Mass hysteria is fine because its not a charm? Where is the counterplay for streak or mass hysteria? And if your answer is that they arent charms, then we can agree to disagree. Because at that point your issue is just with charms in general. And like i said before thats fine, the charmed CC is a little buggy, but that doesnt make the wardens class mastery broken. It just means charms need to be improved.

- You cannot roll dodge AoEs — rolling only mitigates direct damage while repositioning, it does not counter the CC
answered

- The CC is delayed, making burst timing trivial
i disagree

- Break free interaction is inconsistent, and you’re always displaced
thats an issue with charms in general. And im starting to think thats where your real gripe is, with charm in general.

- Avoiding it by stacking speed doesn’t make the design healthy
Running major expedition on a pvp build in 2025 is neither stacking speed or unreasonable. Its just a good idea. But i also dont think the design is unhealthy. As ive said. I would call it easily avoidable. I think its similar to fear or streak. The main difference is that you dont have 2 seconds to get out of those CCs, like you do with warden class mastery. And that its a charm.

Calling it “choices” doesn’t change that it bypasses fundamental defensive mechanics. You may personally avoid it often—and that’s fine—but that doesn’t invalidate the design concerns being raised

Lots of things bypass fundamental defensive mechanics. This isnt an argument. Unless your argument is that unblockable CCs shouldnt exist. Then thats a different conversation.

to me there isnt much difference between wardens class mastery and streak or fear. But as i said before, if your opinion is that it should not be a charm then im right there with you. And i would even go a step further and say zos should just remove charms in general. There was a reason they changed how nightblade fear worked. And now its just basically what charm is, the old nightblade fear.

This is comparable to streak or mass hysteria

I disagree. Streak and Mass Hysteria are instant, direct CCs with immediate break-free expectations and predictable outcomes. Warden class mastery is a delayed AoE charm that applies displacement after a timer, which creates a fundamentally different risk profile and burst setup window. Streak forcibly repositions the caster rather than the target, which inherently disrupts follow-up burst and does negligible damage. Fear has lower range than the charm, is a more reliable and less buggy CC, and does not meaningfully enable burst because it is not delayed. Neither ability allows the caster to preload burst into a guaranteed CC window, and that lack of delay is the critical difference.

The delayed CC makes burst timing trivial — “I disagree”

I disagree with the disagreement. Delayed, predictable CCs are easier, not harder, to line up burst around—especially in coordinated or experienced play. The delay removes uncertainty and allows players to preload damage, ultimates, or procs before the CC resolves. Simply saying “I disagree” is not an argument; disagreement without mechanical justification does not refute the claim.

Major Expedition in 2025 PvP is normal and sufficient

I disagree. While Major Expedition is common, it is still a build tax, not universal counterplay. Requiring players to maintain Major Expedition specifically to answer a single CC highlights a design imbalance rather than resolving one. The implication that players should keep Major Expedition up 24/7, or avoid casting abilities just in case a charm is used so they can immediately trigger Expedition plus snare removal and sprint out, is an obviously unreasonable expectation that undermines normal combat flow.

Unblockable CCs existing makes this a weak argument

I disagree. The issue isn’t merely that the CC is unblockable; it’s that it is AoE, delayed, charm-based, displacing, and inconsistent on break free all at once. This charm also ties directly into Contingency, which delivers a significant amount of AoE burst. Other unblockable CCs generally have meaningful downsides or clear counterplay, while this interaction lacks comparable tradeoffs.

Removing charms in general would solve it

I disagree. Removing charms might paper over part of the problem, but it does not address why delayed AoE CCs that bypass fundamental defensive mechanics feel bad to play against in the first place. Even without the charm classification, the same issues would remain: delayed resolution, forced displacement, unreliable break free interaction, and burst pre-buffering with minimal counterplay.

If you want to go further, the real productive question becomes which specific tradeoff this ability should have—removing the delay, removing displacement, limiting AoE coverage, or enforcing reliable break free—rather than treating it as equivalent to existing CCs that operate very differently.
[edited to remove quote]

I think all of your claims are so incredibly wrong, and tbh im not sure i want to even try to argue about it on a forum post. I guess first, idk why you think the delay on the cc is such a game changer. Its like your saying people cant/couldnt get by without it, when its just not the case. The delay on the cc is just so trivial i cannot fathom why its something you find so important. You can claim it is, but unfortunately it just does not play out that way in game. And the same goes for your claim about "pre loading" damage because of the delay. Like i said, its extremely trivial, it just does not make the difference you think it does compared to a normal, similar, cc.

A CC is a CC. Your claim that fear doesnt enable burst because it is not delayed, assuming you need a delayed cc for burst, is just outlandish. Your claim about streak is also silly when you add range into the equation. And your claim that unblockable/undodgeable ccs have some kind of counterplay is just strange. if you are hit with streak, for example, and are not CC immune, there is no counterplay, you will be CCd.

Honestly this discussion has become pointless. im not trying to go around in circles again and again with multiple people. Were just so completely at separate sides of the issue its a waste of time. And i think most of your claims are so wrong that it just seems like we must be playing different games. As ive said multiple times, i think the only issue with this skill is the fact that its a charm. Because charms are inherently glitchy in eso. Its the reason the CC is hard to break. Its the reason people sometimes glitch into the mesh or under the map. And by the same token, i think your claim that the same issues would still exist, if the charm was replaced by a different CC type, is completely wrong.

And if you dont think the cc break is an issue on charms just have an arcanist use their charm and you will see. Otherwise i think that wardens class mastery is perfectly fine on whatever skill its put on. I have no issue using it, or fighting against it, and tbh i just cannot relate to people who think it cannot be avoided, or that its too strong. Tbh i find it too easy to avoid when fighting good players. Its rare that it even lands once in those type of 1v1 fights.

IMO the reason why people get upset at this skill is simple. First, because the charm can be annoying to break sometimes. And Second, because many people in eso love to chase people around towers (for whatever reason) and this skill, specifically with the root on it, makes doing that a lot more difficult. Thats basically it. Zos will do what they will do, but for the life of me i just cannot understand how people struggle with this skill.