Syldras wrote: »

I even go one step further: I think it's a problem that real world morals are even applied to this fictional world which has its completely different cultural norms and morals. There's no arguing that some aspects that are seen as normal in some of Tamriel's cultures are horrible from a real world perspective - no matter if we look at slavery, writs of lawful assassination, Altmer eugenics, or whatever - but I want to look at this fictional world and learn about their cultures, including all "good" and "bad" aspects, without it becoming a moral lecture. And if I interact with npcs in this world, I want to see them written in a way that reflects Tamriel's ideas of morality and lawfulness, not the real world's.

PREACH

Unfortunately, this is not strictly a ZOS problem, it's more of a "writing anything after the mid-2010s" problem. It seems that every entertainment industry has pivoted to a "we need to lecture our audience on morality in the modern age" regardless of what setting the specific story is.

It is unfortunate that nobody seems to be able to differentiate between "these are the ideals of the fantasy culture" and "these are the ideals of modern humans" anymore. This also really makes it so "bad guys" are irredeemable and are clownishly over-the-top evil while the "good guys" are paragons of light and virtue, so there's no nuance anymore. The shades of grey is what makes stories like this interesting.

I like to go back to Skyrim thinking about this: the Civil War has the two sides you can support, and - let's face it - both are bad choices. But both have reasons for supporting them: are you going to stand with an oppressed people who have been colonized and now their very religion is being banned against the very colonizers who are little more than puppets of a supremacist organization? Or are you going to fight with the army that has upheld peace for hundreds of years to bring these racist cult-of-personality rebels in line to be able to have the strength to repel the elven supremacists? Are both true? Are both false?
It's when you end up with - exactly what the Solstice story was advertised as - that it becomes disappointing.

“I love the Worm Cult because they’re over-the-top bad guys,” says Baker. “As they say, every villain is the hero of their own story, however misguided it might be. However, the Worm Cult is a different kind of villain. They’re irredeemable, power-mad megalomaniacs. You never have to ask yourself if it’s right for you to stop them, because they want bad things for bad reasons. That’s fun!”

Really? That kind of a story is boring because you're doing the thinking for me. I don't want to be told which side is good or bad, I want to be able to see it for myself. I like the moral quandries. I like needing to consider which side is best to support... and to live with my decision.

Another thing that a lot of fantasy settings are sanding off lately is the racial (ok fine, we'll say "species") upbringings and personality types. Again, a lot of this has to do with trying to make each of them acceptable to modern sensibilities. And the usual example is elves.
ESO's Altmer are shells of what Altmer should be. We got some feelings of it back in Summerset, but for the most part the Altmer of ESO are very generic - which I suspect has a lot to do with the idea of "oh [snip], they were modelled heavily after a certain political movement back in Skyrim, so we need to make them the opposite here!" And they overcorrected - where's the superiority come from? Where is the tension in the AD? Ayrenn herself is constantly seen in game as a competent fighter and proud beloved ruler... so where is the desire for Elven Supremacy that we see in the lorebooks, notably from her own Aincatar of Shimmerene, Sapiarch of Indoctrination?
About the only race that ESO shows consistently as their stereotype is the Nords, in that ESO has almost gone out of their way to make 90% of them Rigurt. Which is just as bad.

Basically, I have no hope that this will change in the near future. I only hope that TES6 spends long enough in production that this "Social Media centric" style of storytelling is over before they write that one.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

And if I interact with npcs in this world, I want to see them written in a way that reflects Tamriel's ideas of morality and lawfulness, not the real world's.

Same. I'm cool with their being some differences in the morals compared to the mainline games going on right now because of the alliances, personally. So, I actually do like that there's an anti-slavery thing happening because of them. But I don't get why other things like taking artifacts would be a problem.

Let's take a look at Bandits/Cultists, for example.

With Bastian, he hates killing civilians but likes hunting down bandits. I've seen people consider that inconsistent. And I think it would be in the real world. But in Tamriel, bandits are bounties and they're legal kills. This is generally viewed as a morally good thing because bandits kill civilians and merchants. This is an example of actually depicting a character as good based off the morals of Tamriel rather then IRL.

And then, let's look at Solstice. There's an plainly evil cultist who you have to interrogate for evidence. If you rough him a bit, you immediately get a lecture about how it's evil from a respected NPC. Why? Jailers are seen in ES games with devices intended for hurting prisoners, presumably for information. The little harm you do him completely pales in comparison to official practices. Yet, your character doing this is treated as shockingly awful. This seems much more grounded in RL than Tamriel.

Yeah John Kiriakou blew the whistle on us for that thing in the jail, for sure lol.

I would like, very much, to not be in the middle of the main quest chain and then have one of the only dialogue options be "can you tell me what's going on here?" Like I have zero idea of the plot so far. Why would they assume my character has amnesia mid quest chain? It was startling the first time it happened in solstice. An option to have an NPC explain why your here and what's happened. No words.

AScarlato wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This also really makes it so "bad guys" are irredeemable and are clownishly over-the-top evil while the "good guys" are paragons of light and virtue, so there's no nuance anymore. The shades of grey is what makes stories like this interesting.

I guess it depends on the game. Over in XIV we are presently discussing how all of the villains are actually just misunderstood and there are no outright evil characters lately, and how that is also boring at this point.

Too much of one thing becomes boring. Sometimes it's nice to just have an evil enemy whose evil for the sake of being evil but we're not getting compelling narratives in general right now. Sure, the last "grey villain" situation was last year... where they

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Same. I'm cool with their being some differences in the morals compared to the mainline games going on right now because of the alliances, personally. So, I actually do like that there's an anti-slavery thing happening because of them. But I don't get why other things like taking artifacts would be a problem.

I'm fine with everything that fits the depicted world, which of course also includes societal changes or the current political situation in Tamriel. It's clear that the Three Banners War and the new alliances have changed a few things. They haven't forbidden slavery in general, by the way - only the enslavement of people who belong to the Ebonheart Pact. So now House Dres trades Khajiit, non-Nord humans and goblins instead of Argonians. And we know there are hypocrites who still enslave their official allies - in Mourhold, there's an Indoril household that still has an Argonian slave, for example. I remember there was even a base game quest where a Dunmer noblewoman was searching for a Breton woman and while at first it sounded like she was searching for a missing friend, it turned out it was her slave who ran away. The player character even had the choice to either let her go or bring her back. I don't think we'd see anything like that - all that - anymore with their current tendencies in writing.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Unfortunately, this is not strictly a ZOS problem, it's more of a "writing anything after the mid-2010s" problem. It seems that every entertainment industry has pivoted to a "we need to lecture our audience on morality in the modern age" regardless of what setting the specific story is.
It is unfortunate that nobody seems to be able to differentiate between "these are the ideals of the fantasy culture" and "these are the ideals of modern humans" anymore.

The question I ask myself is: Why? Are they afraid someone might think depicting things in fiction equals condoning them? Or do people actually think like that now? If so, why aren't they capable anymore of differenciating between reality and fiction, and of understanding that cultures have different worldviews and values?

tomofhyrule wrote: »

It's when you end up with - exactly what the Solstice story was advertised as - that it becomes disappointing.

“I love the Worm Cult because they’re over-the-top bad guys,” says Baker. “As they say, every villain is the hero of their own story, however misguided it might be. However, the Worm Cult is a different kind of villain. They’re irredeemable, power-mad megalomaniacs. You never have to ask yourself if it’s right for you to stop them, because they want bad things for bad reasons. That’s fun!”

It might also be a question of personal taste, I guess, but indeed, I also found that horribly boring. Now I don't think an evil character always needs some "redeemable qualities" - some characters in a story might be just deeply morally flawed, and that's fine. But still, I want to learn about that character, their motivations, their background - and I want to see those flaws (or evil deeds or whatever) to come to my own conclusion. Honestly, just being told how to feel ("That's the baddie, he's bad! That's it.") almost feels insulting to me. I'm capable of following a narration and drawing my own conclusions, after all. In case of Mannimarco I was especially disappointed since he could be such an interesting character. He's so central for TES lore as a whole but yet we learn so little about him. Also, this would have been the opportunity to bridge the gap between his demise in the base game and his status in TES2 Daggerfall.

Waits_Behind_Walls wrote: »

Also loving Raz, I appreciated the opportunity to flirt back, but really had to force myself to click the 'playing games' line to continue with it because I think only Jakarn would have appreciated it. I chose the "fissure" response to Prince Azah, but purely out of morbid curiosity. These lines are the kind of things people regret saying at bar time when they're desperate to go home with someone and they (mistakenly) think they haven't been clear enough about it.
Either they need to make these lines good enough that no one is going to be embarrassed to use them, or maybe they offer branching options from romance to choose the flirty line you want for your character. These aren't voiced lines, so I wouldn't think it would be too burdensome.

While I'm not opposed to introducing "romance" in general - I can see there are situations where roleplay-wise it would fit - I found most "flirty" options so far... horrid. They often didn't fit the situation, they seemed random, and... who even talks like that?! I get the impression that the writers might also see this as nothing but a joke, not a real, "serious" roleplay option.

Syldras wrote: »

I'm fine with everything that fits the depicted world, which of course also includes societal changes or the current political situation in Tamriel. It's clear that the Three Banners War and the new alliances have changed a few things. They haven't forbidden slavery in general, by the way - only the enslavement of people who belong to the Ebonheart Pact. So now House Dres trades Khajiit, non-Nord humans and goblins instead of Argonians. And we know there are hypocrites who still enslave their official allies - in Mourhold, there's an Indoril household that still has an Argonian slave, for example. I remember there was even a base game quest where a Dunmer noblewoman was searching for a Breton woman and while at first it sounded like she was searching for a missing friend, it turned out it was her slave who ran away. The player character even had the choice to either let her go or bring her back. I don't think we'd see anything like that - all that - anymore with their current tendencies in writing.

Ah, interesting. I misremembered that then. I thought it was officially outlawed but it was still happening and condoned unofficially, so long as it wasn't anyone affiliated with the alliance. Good to know, thanks

It's funny. The way they've been handling goblins lately actually feels more like their new stand in for racism.

Ilsabet wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Waits_Behind_Walls wrote: »

I chose the "fissure" response to Prince Azah, but purely out of morbid curiosity.

Same. I was in disbelief that I was reading that in an Elder Scrolls game. Just pure cringe and also offensive. Absolutely immersion-breaking.

I wasn't even sure what was supposed to be funny about it. Was it a butt joke?

Depends on the sex of your character I guess.

Ilsabet wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

Waits_Behind_Walls wrote: »

I chose the "fissure" response to Prince Azah, but purely out of morbid curiosity.

Same. I was in disbelief that I was reading that in an Elder Scrolls game. Just pure cringe and also offensive. Absolutely immersion-breaking.

I wasn't even sure what was supposed to be funny about it. Was it a butt joke?

+1, the best interpretation I could make was that it was supposed to be a reference to the sheer amount of destruction that follows the player around and vice-versa. And even that didn’t fit very well based on the Prince’s reaction. It was just clunky dialogue all around.

Good to know it's not another translation mistake, though. Which was what I first thought, as there are a few other dialogues where the translation seems rather weird. Which was also never a problem just some years ago.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yes. I'm think that's what it's supposed to be.

It can also refer to broken bones (a specific fracture type). Which would be slightly better in context (our character does probably break quite a few enemies' bones during fights, after all), but I find it so vague it could mean anything. In any way, it came across as rather confusing instead of funny to me.

Tariq9898 wrote: »

That’s why exposure to global myth and classical texts matters so much. Reading works like Gilgamesh, The Ramayana, The Mahabharata, Journey to the West, The Aeneid, Oedipus Rex, King Lear, or even comparative works like The Hero with a Thousand Faces trains actors and writers to think in mythopoeic, worldbuilding structure that is common in Elder Scrolls. Religious texts also help, though that’s obviously a personal choice.
Different cultures tell different stories, but there’s a connective tissue running through them—a shared mythic spine that shapes how people understood identity, duty, morality, and the cosmos long before modern Western norms existed.

That's common knowledge. Or at least it was once.

The great mystery for me is why the writers nowadays seem to believe that players want to see the blunt repetition of current modern sentiments and mundane themes (while ironically still talking about "epic stories" and "mystic heroes") in a fantasy narration taking place in a completely different world. Or do the masses actually want that now?

There's one point I disagree about, though - I don't think that individual psychology is out of place in a fantasy narration. But this psychological depiction must fit the setting - the world, the era, the cultures depicted. What makes it feel out of place is when these factors get ignored and someone just applies their own (modern, first world, western, etc) sentiments to a character living under completely different circumstances.

Also, they still do take other real-world eras and cultures as an "inspiration" for this game: Many furnishings in ESO are just copies of real world furnishings they've probably seen in a museum (or online). There's over a dozen where I can clearly identify the original.

Syldras wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

That’s why exposure to global myth and classical texts matters so much. Reading works like Gilgamesh, The Ramayana, The Mahabharata, Journey to the West, The Aeneid, Oedipus Rex, King Lear, or even comparative works like The Hero with a Thousand Faces trains actors and writers to think in mythopoeic, worldbuilding structure that is common in Elder Scrolls. Religious texts also help, though that’s obviously a personal choice.
Different cultures tell different stories, but there’s a connective tissue running through them—a shared mythic spine that shapes how people understood identity, duty, morality, and the cosmos long before modern Western norms existed.

That's common knowledge. Or at least it was once.

The great mystery for me is why the writers nowadays seem to believe that players want to see the blunt repetition of current modern sentiments and mundane themes (while ironically still talking about "epic stories" and "mystic heroes") in a fantasy narration taking place in a completely different world. Or do the masses actually want that now?

There's one point I disagree about, though - I don't think that individual psychology is out of place in a fantasy narration. But this psychological depiction must fit the setting - the world, the era, the cultures depicted. What makes it feel out of place is when these factors get ignored and someone just applies their own (modern, first world, western, etc) sentiments to a character living under completely different circumstances.

Also, they still do take other real-world eras and cultures as an "inspiration" for this game: Many furnishings in ESO are just copies of real world furnishings they've probably seen in a museum (or online). There's over a dozen where I can clearly identify the original.

It doesn’t seem common based on recent writing not just in games, but in other media as well. If anything, it’s starting to feel the opposite. But that could just be me. As for your first paragraph, much of that depends heavily on the country, current climate, both political and societal as well as personal (not just agenda, but what kind of writer they are/aspire to be as well as their personal life experiences). There’s also huge influence from other works too.

But why? I think much of it is an attempt to make characters, especially villains relatable. Right now, I feel there are much more nuanced and gray villains with motivations rather than just “evil for the sake of evil” villains. Marvel has really popularized this, and they ain’t the only one. As someone pointed earlier, FFXIV is now doing it, to the point of predictability. The Last Of Us Part II as well. Anime might be big on it too?? I don’t watch enough to know for sure. Anyways, this character trope is very trendy and as such👇🏼

This nuanced writing often comes with adding in personal life experiences and views. Mainly because it’s a gateway to making a character relatable. Statistically speaking, one person’s struggle-whether it’s environmental, political, gender, health-is something many (maybe millions?) can relate to, given there are billions of us. This in turn, can lead to modern day sentiments in storytelling. Which I agree isn’t best for Elder Scrolls.

By the way, when I said individual psychology, I meant in a modern sense that doesn’t fit the fantasy genre, should’ve clarified that. 😅

Syldras wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

It doesn’t seem common based on recent writing not just in games, but in other media as well. If anything, it’s starting to feel the opposite. But that could just be me. As for your first paragraph, much of that depends heavily on the country, current climate, both political and societal as well as personal (not just agenda, but what kind of writer they are/aspire to be as well as their personal life experiences). There’s also huge influence from other works too.

What I meant was that people were generally aware of the value that classical literature has for education and personal development - as a way to broaden the horizon, to learn about human nature, etc. It might depend on the country, of course, but where I live, it's a normal part of the school curriculum from elementary school on. Perhaps the focus was even bigger a few generations ago; at least I knew several elderly people who grew up very rurally and only received minimum education since they were supposed to inherit their family's farm anyway, but even they had read classical works at school and knew the Odyssey, the Iliad, the Song of the Nibelungs, and so on. It's also still very common to learn Latin or Ancient Greek here. It's basically impossible here to finish school without having read literature from all eras.

Which is also the reason the banality of the current ESO writing leaves me a little perplexed - surely these people must have read narrations beyond mass entertainment novels from the past decade, fanfiction and memes before, especially if they chose to become writers for a living (which, I'd assume, people do out of love for literature - it's not a job typically chosen out of financial interest alone, after all)? So why do the stories feel so uninspired then?

Tariq9898 wrote: »

But why? I think much of it is an attempt to make characters, especially villains relatable.

But to be relatable, they don't need to exact copies of the current modern world. People can read the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Metamorphoses of Ovid, or Tristan and Iseult today and still relate with many of the characters, despite these stories having a completely different setting compared to whichever 21st century western society.

Tariq9898 wrote: »

But anyways, with this nuanced writing often comes with adding in personal life experiences and views. Mainly because it’s a gateway to making a character relatable. Statistically speaking, one person’s struggle-whether it’s environmental, political, gender, health-is something many (maybe millions?) can relate to, given there are billions of us. This in turn, can lead to modern day sentiments in storytelling. Which I agree isn’t best for Elder Scrolls.

But why aren't they aware that their personal struggles as a 20/30-something 21st century western human citydweller might just not fit into a story about feudal-Asia-inspired elves living under the rule of three powerful godkings (or tree-venerating tribal lizard people living in swamps, or cannibalistic forest-dwelling miniature elves,...) in a pseudo-medieval, magic world threatened by dragons, demonic forces, pestilence and war?

Sometimes it almost feels like some people today revolve around their own personal issues so much they can't barely comprehend that other people might live (or have lived) a completely different life (especially in other cultures and eras) where none of that matters.

I agree with everything you said. You don’t need to adhere to modern sentiments to be relatable. I wish more people would know that. Schooling plays a huge part early on and well into adult life. I don’t speak for everyone, but in my school, we very rarely explored the humanities deeply. It was shallow exploration for a certain amount of time before moving onto the next subject/topic/story. We never read The Odyssey in full. It’s clear that the curriculum for both the teachers and students was to just get good numbers. Be it GPA, AP test scores, SAT scores, ACT scores, TAKS scores (Texas standardized test), school ranking, class scores. There was no room for deep creative exploration, discovery, and discussion. There was also very little interest for the school system to learn anything outside of the US. Creativity wasn’t a thing.

I didn’t start to get into the humanities until I started Acting, which was right before the pandemic. And that was when I reeaaallllyyyy tapped into my deep passion about storytelling and roleplaying. Which led me to read more epics and delve deeper and deeper into worldbuilding, lore, archetypes, Shakespeare, religion, philosophy, mythology, history etc etc. Theatre has a deep seated history with the epics. And it blew my mind. Ancient epics are something else.

Environment and the values that go with it also plays a huge part.

This goes back to what I said earlier. Which is that I feel the writers need more world exposure outside of the US. There is an entire wide world out there that is much, much deeper and older than the US. All of which will vastly enrich anyone. This helps people comprehend that there are other lives out there that are from different eras and are worth telling and exploring.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Works of art often reflect the culture, problems, and the values of the population that makes them and the USA is not an exception. Additionally, corporate interests have ensured that the art being produced is more broad (not less) specifically so it can be marketed to global audiences. The stories selected are generally more universal in themes (friendship is good, hurting people is bad), unlikely to offend the sensibilities of a global audience, and suited to a mass audience. The Marvel Effect is because Marvel movies are some of the biggest money makers in the world. The top grossing franchises in the world is stuff like super heroes and Pokemon.

Elder Scrolls is following the money. Many of its writers are from the US and making art that speaks to them within the world of Tamriel as a framework and for a global audience. Pretty normal for commercial art. It doesn't mean they never read Shakespeare.

Which, in turn, is hugely influenced by the economic and political systems that run the US.

I'm an American and was taught that stuff in public school. The Odyssey, Beywolf, Gilgamesh, Shakespeare, etc. Dating myself a bit but I remember reading Romeo and Juliet and then watching the movie in class. Education level varies greatly by state.

Syldras wrote: »

This might work for stories set in modern times or perhaps some sci-fi. But does it also work for fantasy stories set in what looks like some past era or a completely different world? I wonder how the target group as a whole views ESO - in this forum at least there's a big consensus that writing went downhill for years now.

I don't think think it does but nevertheless the Marvel way of doing things has taken over a lot of commercial art from large corporations. Alongside the rule of second screen. It's not hard to understand why. Marvel was on the verge of bankruptcy before the first Ironman movie. Now, it's in the top 10 highest grossing franchises in the entire world. That's not just a massive turnaround, it's dominating other story telling techniques. The problem is even Marvel has become too reliant on the Marvel movie formula, so their own movies aren't doing as well as they did before.

The more complex stories are mostly moreso in smaller stuff from smaller games. Elder Scrolls massive success has been both a blessing and a curse for its writing. On the one hand, they can make grander games than they could before. On the other hand, since they're no longer niche, there are more obvious attempts to make the writing appeal to a broader audience. Stuff like the cannibalism of the wood elves is downplayed for more broadly relatable stories, and those stories are being executed with varying quality.

Personally, Solstices writing seems to be more complex and better received than High Isle. So I think they have course corrected a bit.