Dear ESO pvp veterans…

heimdall14_9 · December 29

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Hi, Veteran PvP player here. I’ve been playing this game since 2020, and got into PvP around mid 2021. I’ve seen a lot of metas come and go, played through hundreds of builds, and experienced change after change to the game. I’ve read your post, OP, and I can say one thing with confidence.

I’m not doing any of that. Neither is anyone else who’s serious about winning in PvP.

I, too, have complained about sets and abilities and metas and ball groups in the past. But at the end of the day, these things aren’t going anywhere. ZoS has clearly demonstrated that. And these sets, abilities, and strategies work. Who wants to be less effective in combat? Who wants to be less powerful? Not me or the majority of endgame PvP players I’ve encountered.

To be clear, I’m happy for anyone who has fun in PvP without using any of this stuff. If you can function in Cyro on your unique off-meta build, that’s great! But the meta players also have fun on our builds and in our groups. We’re not going to limit our fun because people disagree with our strategies or get frustrated that they can’t beat us because of some refusal to either use what works or learn how to beat it.

As for the long-term health of the game, the PvP community may be dwindling, but it’s not going to die. Not by a long shot. I’ve been hearing that Chicken Little take for years now, and it hasn’t come to pass. Even if Vengeance replaces GH, people will play it (I won’t be one of them, but others will). It takes a LOT more than some overperforming gear to kill an MMO mode with a dedicated fanbase.

keep12v1ing an dead zone lol

Theignson · December 29

On the one hand, ZOS created the current PvP mess, and on the other hand , ZOS has not listened to the hundreds of posts explaining how broken Crutch of Agony, Warden Charm, group shields, and 10x group stacking HOTs are.

Almost every single small man/ball group is using Crutch of agony and charm. They are also using huge shields/HOT stacking. So they are very hard to kill, but also have huge damage.

That is called "god mode" and those players aren't going to give it up. So there is nothing we can do.

heimdall14_9 · December 29

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

I challenge you, put down the rallying cry, the monomyth, The charm, the rush of agony, the same 3 subclasses that 90% of cyrodil is using for like, and try something new.

Hear me out. We, as the community are the fix here.

I get it - When subclassing was released, we were all excited to be OP, our PVE DPS doubled overnight, we got instant insane PvP builds and felt stronger than emperors…

But it’s getting old now. I don’t think I’ve spoken to a single pvp regular who enjoys the current state of pvp, and ZOS clearly aren’t doing anything about it anytime soon;

The charm spam.
- It’s annoying and overpowered. No other class mastery performs this well. If Procs on healing soul (also overtuned) so can be used both offensively and defensively, to stun entire groups through block and dodge roll… without even slotting a stun. The AOE is also huge. If you use charm and deny how ridiculous this is, you’re in denial. Drop it for a week and I’ll see you back here. No one enjoys this trash.

Rush of agony
- I still have no idea why a set that has the best CC in the game, doesn’t grant CC immunity, and has an explosion attached to it afterwards because why not. It’s even got its own internal cooldown separate to regular CC, which I have to assume is harder to code than just making it obey the rules of normal CC?? It does nothing for pve, and all it does is ruin PvP with that ridiculous interaction. It’s a tool for ball groups to decimate solo / small groups, and large fights are almost always decided by this annoying set, often spammed every 8 seconds in tandem with charm. No one enjoys this.

The same subclasses
- Everyone is using assassination, with a combo of storm calling, animal companions, aedric spear or restoring light. Everyone. They are overtuned and it makes every player an infinite sustaining, speed machine TankHealsDeeps with no counter, no weakness, and everyone just bouncing off each others invincible builds, until you notice some poor soul trying something different in a group fight - and you go and 2 shot them, before getting back to being more survivable than a trials tank. It’s boring. No one likes this.

Monomyth / Rallying / Wretched
- I mean mostly Monomyth. It’s busted OP and it’s why we all use it. But the Same builds are everywhere. When sets like rallying over perform to such a level, build variety is dead.

Ball groups
- I mean where to start… I’ve played in a ball group and actively felt my brain cells melting away with how boring it was, spamming the same few skills around a pull spam every few seconds and causing the game to lag for everyone nearby. I’ve also played against them, and PvP is legit miserable for anyone not in a ball group right now.

My point?

It’s time for US, the player base to take some accountability here. Sure, we can rightfully blame ZOS for such god awful balance and ignoring things flagged on PTS, we can flame them for the current state and hope that they listen, and we can post feedback and tag them… But it’s been months, and all we have is a fleeting hope of this class balance in the near future… But the veterans amongst us know full well that won’t be the fix that pvp needs.

It’s on us, the players, to put down that trash that’s ruining the game, and try something different. Sure it’s nice to win all the time, and i know the ego players are gonna shudder at the thought of not being at their best…. But the alternative is killing the game.

I came from the dark souls community before playing eso from console release, and in that community, the playerbase got together and collectively decided that we weren’t going to all use the same broken OP stuff. We made news and made fun of people who did that. We tried new things and got creative, and as a result, the game lasted years after the developers stopped caring.

I don’t know how long eso has - Hopefully a while because we love this game right? But we currently have a community full of pvpers who know full well what the problems are, yet do nothing about it, in favour of remaining OP.

At the very least, don’t be one of the people complaining about how pvp sucks, before jumping on your rally / null arca / balorghs warden base with assassination and Storm calling.

Rant over, I am mad. I’m not chill. 12 years on eso and here we are, with the worst balance since release, and a playerbase that’s forcing each other into the very meta that is causing the need for vengeance campaign to take over (which most of us don’t want)

tell me what you think.

OP i like what you're trying to do BUT it will NEVER happen as LETS KEEP IT REAL them running this type of build NEED IT TO BE GOOD at PVP why do you think most run in GROUPS because they DIE ALONE .............reason they run when in an 1v1 encounter , its one of the funniest things about ESO PVP is how many PRO PVP players will RUN when in an 1v1 but be the biggest try hard with 11 others v 1 lol

JohnRingo · December 29

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

I challenge you, put down the rallying cry, the monomyth, The charm, the rush of agony, the same 3 subclasses that 90% of cyrodil is using for like, and try something new.

Hear me out. We, as the community are the fix here.

I get it - When subclassing was released, we were all excited to be OP, our PVE DPS doubled overnight, we got instant insane PvP builds and felt stronger than emperors…

But it’s getting old now. I don’t think I’ve spoken to a single pvp regular who enjoys the current state of pvp, and ZOS clearly aren’t doing anything about it anytime soon;

The charm spam.
- It’s annoying and overpowered. No other class mastery performs this well. If Procs on healing soul (also overtuned) so can be used both offensively and defensively, to stun entire groups through block and dodge roll… without even slotting a stun. The AOE is also huge. If you use charm and deny how ridiculous this is, you’re in denial. Drop it for a week and I’ll see you back here. No one enjoys this trash.

Rush of agony
- I still have no idea why a set that has the best CC in the game, doesn’t grant CC immunity, and has an explosion attached to it afterwards because why not. It’s even got its own internal cooldown separate to regular CC, which I have to assume is harder to code than just making it obey the rules of normal CC?? It does nothing for pve, and all it does is ruin PvP with that ridiculous interaction. It’s a tool for ball groups to decimate solo / small groups, and large fights are almost always decided by this annoying set, often spammed every 8 seconds in tandem with charm. No one enjoys this.

The same subclasses
- Everyone is using assassination, with a combo of storm calling, animal companions, aedric spear or restoring light. Everyone. They are overtuned and it makes every player an infinite sustaining, speed machine TankHealsDeeps with no counter, no weakness, and everyone just bouncing off each others invincible builds, until you notice some poor soul trying something different in a group fight - and you go and 2 shot them, before getting back to being more survivable than a trials tank. It’s boring. No one likes this.

Monomyth / Rallying / Wretched
- I mean mostly Monomyth. It’s busted OP and it’s why we all use it. But the Same builds are everywhere. When sets like rallying over perform to such a level, build variety is dead.

Ball groups
- I mean where to start… I’ve played in a ball group and actively felt my brain cells melting away with how boring it was, spamming the same few skills around a pull spam every few seconds and causing the game to lag for everyone nearby. I’ve also played against them, and PvP is legit miserable for anyone not in a ball group right now.

My point?

It’s time for US, the player base to take some accountability here. Sure, we can rightfully blame ZOS for such god awful balance and ignoring things flagged on PTS, we can flame them for the current state and hope that they listen, and we can post feedback and tag them… But it’s been months, and all we have is a fleeting hope of this class balance in the near future… But the veterans amongst us know full well that won’t be the fix that pvp needs.

It’s on us, the players, to put down that trash that’s ruining the game, and try something different. Sure it’s nice to win all the time, and i know the ego players are gonna shudder at the thought of not being at their best…. But the alternative is killing the game.

I came from the dark souls community before playing eso from console release, and in that community, the playerbase got together and collectively decided that we weren’t going to all use the same broken OP stuff. We made news and made fun of people who did that. We tried new things and got creative, and as a result, the game lasted years after the developers stopped caring.

I don’t know how long eso has - Hopefully a while because we love this game right? But we currently have a community full of pvpers who know full well what the problems are, yet do nothing about it, in favour of remaining OP.

At the very least, don’t be one of the people complaining about how pvp sucks, before jumping on your rally / null arca / balorghs warden base with assassination and Storm calling.

Rant over, I am mad. I’m not chill. 12 years on eso and here we are, with the worst balance since release, and a playerbase that’s forcing each other into the very meta that is causing the need for vengeance campaign to take over (which most of us don’t want)

tell me what you think.

Vengeance sounds perfect for you.

L_Nici · December 29

I play neither Rallying Cry, nor the monomyth, nor the charm, nor the rush of agony (which I haven't seen in ages actually, the lag makes it way to unreliable), about Subclasses I don't know, personally playing Stamsorc with Assassination, because ZoS neglected a stamina sorc spamable since 10 years, you always had to use weapon lines or Crystal Weapon after it was added, which is clunky af, so Assassination Surprise Attack was a blessing, not my fault everyone uses that line for Spectral Arrow, I am just happy to finally have a Stamina Spamable. I really hope in their class rework, they do not forget Stamsorcs again...we lost so much already. Once the fastest, the burstiest, now just a shadow of the past, in my case with Sets of the Past, that still work for me, but can't compete with the Meta at all.

Turtle_Bot · 2:15AM

Unfortunately, I just don't see this happening. Too many within the current PvP community have a "win at all costs" mindset, even if it is to the detriment of the health of the game, which means it's up to ZOS to fix the balance issues and problematic sets/skills.

Too many players currently with this mentality means that anyone not at least using a very similar setup to the meta won't have the option to have fun (enjoyable fights, let alone actually win) outside of very niche situations such as dedicated off-meta PvP tournaments, etc. and it's even worse for those who are not at the peak of skills in this game, since they will only ever be cannon fodder unless they run those same meta builds/skills or simply zerg up due to the massive power disparity between the meta and everything else.

I'd love to be able to run more thematic builds, and do what I can by mixing in off-meta skills/sets into the builds to at least find some other options, but I am not a top 0.1% player who can make such a power disparity work (constantly losing is not fun for me, especially if the fights don't feel even remotely balanced), and my main PvP chars have been Sorc and Warden for a long time now (I play all classes, but those 2 are what I'm most comfortable on/mix best with how I play), so no matter what I do, I always end up on some variant of the current "meta" builds, no matter how much I switch them up or try new things.

MincMincMinc · 3:10AM

Charm is the pinnacle of the bloated skill issue in the game. Take healing soul alone and its a strong heal. Take healing soul with major vitality and it IS the strongest heal. Take healing soul and give it an 8m ultimate worth effect like aoe charm and its a no brainer choice on every build. >> reduce to minor vitality and change warden mastery to a single purify. Put the charm on the unused warden healing ult for group play coordination.
Rush of Agony is the pinnacle of bloated proc effect sets doing multiple paragraphs of effects (that definitely doesn't lag the server one bit....LOL). This set could be reduced to simply just the CC with a long cooldown. IMO there are far more steps that should be done for play/counterplay telegraphing but I dont want to write out another 5 paragraph essay here.
Subclassing is the result of launching the ship without patching up all the holes. When you move to a classless skill system each of the skill lines needs to be balanced as if it is its own standalone class. Things like major buff conflicts should be moved to other systems for balancing like putting resolve on armor skills. Revamp the potion system to give major buffs instead of unique buffs. Revamp poisons to do minor debuffs. Doing this would drastically cut down on the unique proc calcs while also bringing more weight out of skill line choice depending on what passives each line gives.
Monomyth, this is just a flat power creep P2W if you want to be relevant, just like how scribing healing soul was. Remove the minor buffs atleast to start. If its too strong make the minor debuffs into majors. Problem solved in 2 patches.
Rallying is the pinnacle of group set issues with the game. Do you all realize the set incentivizes and benefits ballgroup/zergs to spam aoe dot heals........literally the worst performance inducing skills possible. How about you tie the proc effect to something like a purge or a single target aimed heal. There are hundreds of ways to make this set more performative lag wise.
Now talking stat wise the 2-4 line isnt crazy. Critchance isnt great in pvp theorycraft wise because of how stat balancing was done. Max mag for stam builds is wasted damage wise. Even for mag builds it comes out to only being worth about 85sd/wd towards your damage. For the 5 piece it is worth hundings+impreg 200% uptime (the cooldown and proc conditions are pointless calcs on the server) The group decay is such that at 10 players this buff is reduced by half, which HARDLY keeps smaller groups competitive vs larger groups, but it atleast balance wise is better than something like olorime. Lag wise it is atrocious though having to constantly calculate group size, aoe, timers, etc.
Wretched.......I honestly dont understand why people run regen sets because you should be getting your sustain through better sources like using food to trade off max stat or potions or mundus for efficiency. Otherwise the 5 piece is 780 total regen which is equivalent to 780wd as a flat bonus all the time (EXCEPT IT ISNT A FLAT BONUS.........IT IS A PROC THAT ADDS MORE CALCS ON THE SERVER!!!)
Ballgroups, idk just see my rallying cry rant. IMO at this stage in eso population they should be designing combat in pvp around making 4 man groups the most efficient stat wise. For "ballgroups" or larger groups combat should be dictated by who coordinates crucial skills/ults better, not just by who slots the 12 BIS passive builds that go Brrrrrrrr. For instance move more group mechanics onto unused ultimates. NB siphoning ult for example should be as crucial as negate for groups. Right now ballgroup builds are a byproduct of dumbing down the combat in the name of "Accessibility for the less fortunate"

Then make cyrodil or the new pvp game mode designed to incetivize small man teams spreading out during fights. Zos really screwed the pooch when they did the old resource/ap changes and turned cyrodil into a PvDoor waiting room bunching people up with the hammer.

Why does the server lag? idk taking a guess here, it might have something to do with zos ballooning every aspect of the game while also incentivizing the worst offenders to benefit by spamming the most repetitively calc dense everything.

Thumbless_Bot · 3:46AM

Radiate77 wrote: »

@Danse_Mayhem, maybe a better angle to tackle this would be to spread awareness on how to counter said builds.

Not many people are posting PvP builds anymore, and most veterans who understood the value of counterplay are no longer around to spread that knowledge. It’s on us… the people who have been around through all of these different metas to inform people that there are still options.

When that starts happening, just like in Dark Souls, the community will correct itself.

Instead of melee burst builds, people might pull up with a staff and wards, and then when people get sick of that... they counter it with a flood of DoTs and intermittent burst.

Melee burst builds can’t kill someone stacking wards correctly, but they can sure keep up with a flood of DoTs when built right.

That’s the beauty of it.

The best counters to meta trash are:

1. Skill

2. In depth knowledge of the game mechanics.

If you've ever seen someone standing all alone in a group of 8 enemies in a bg and wonder how they survive, much less take out enemy after enemy, see above.

There are no prosthetics for either of these things. The problem is that this is what zos aims to create with each new meta set behind a pay wall.

Thumbless_Bot · 4:21AM

El_Borracho wrote: »

Unless you are part of the hard-core veterans, which is maybe 10-25% of PVPers who are adept at crafting creative, powerful builds for their playstyle, the meta will always be there. There are simply too many nerfs, changes, rebalancing, tweaks, etc. for casual to veteran PVP players to constantly keep up with. Even just leaving for a couple of months can make your build obsolete.

10 years ago, like @DarkStrifeYT pointed out, there were multiple options for being a viable DD in Cyrodiil. Then players complained, so they "fixed" the problem, and have been fixing it ever since. I remember when Mark Target was an OP skill and the worst thing you had to worry about was Snipe desync. Now I wish those days came back.

The first crack to appear was Mythics and the simultaneous crushing of Monster Sets. While a few remain useful, the loss of Monster Sets was a big blow to build diversity. Scribing was a valiant attempt to bring some diversity back, then the Warden Class Mastery appeared. Subclassing has only accelerated the process to this overarching meta.

As a non-hard-core PVPer, I was able to keep a DK build that used the Last Ayleid King mythic effective well past its prime, and have played with some Huntsman's builds. I tried the warden charm/ROA/Monomyth builds, they are just not fun. Its funny, players complain about Vengeance for lack of diversity, then immediately hop back onto their meta. Its got to the point I wish they brought back the original Oakensoul, or at least the infamous original Elf Bane-Zaan combo.

Elf Bane DK was FUN. I never ran zaans though. Never ran bloodspawn either. It was bsw bb, elf bane always on and I think endurance fb with one piece trainee. I might have ran molag kena for a while but that two la thing was always difficult to build around. I ran grothdarr too. That was very fun.

That was my build for a long time, a lot of fun, and I used to be able to 1vx on ps4 in cyro. Then I found essence thief and ran that for years instead of bsw...

I run torq now. It is absolutely not meta, but it is strong if you know how to build into it (like essence thief) and has been and continues to be a lot of fun to play with the options for build diversity within the construct of not having sets. It's made me more aware of the impact the seemingly smaller decisions (outside of sets) have on a build. I am a better player because of it.

Sythen88411 · 5:15AM

So there sre sete in the game but we are not allowed to use them? Guess I'll just use the one that helps my companions.....

katanagirl1 · 5:32AM

Am I a vet PvPer? I’ve been in the main campaign since Kaalgrontiid or earlier so maybe. I’m not running a meta build because I’m just not that good. I don’t know how you can put Rallying Cry in the list, unless you mean people running it in a ball group. I run it on my non-subclassed negate sorc solo build with siege shields and revealing flare. Meta builds are for 1v1 or groups but they aren’t for playing the campaign for points. I certainly am not OP, just trying to survive the 1vX situations I frequently encounter. Before someone says solo players are a problem, which they always do in zone chat, someone has to go back to check on flagged home keeps while everyone else is farming AP at an emp keep. Someone has to stand on the ram and provide shields to get the door down faster. Someone’s got to use flare or everyone gets bombed repairing the keep doors. That’s because even those not in ball groups won’t sacrifice their builds to use these skills, so I agree with you partially.

Danse_Mayhem · 5:40AM

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Charm is the pinnacle of the bloated skill issue in the game. Take healing soul alone and its a strong heal. Take healing soul with major vitality and it IS the strongest heal. Take healing soul and give it an 8m ultimate worth effect like aoe charm and its a no brainer choice on every build. >> reduce to minor vitality and change warden mastery to a single purify. Put the charm on the unused warden healing ult for group play coordination.

Rush of Agony is the pinnacle of bloated proc effect sets doing multiple paragraphs of effects (that definitely doesn't lag the server one bit....LOL). This set could be reduced to simply just the CC with a long cooldown. IMO there are far more steps that should be done for play/counterplay telegraphing but I dont want to write out another 5 paragraph essay here.

Subclassing is the result of launching the ship without patching up all the holes. When you move to a classless skill system each of the skill lines needs to be balanced as if it is its own standalone class. Things like major buff conflicts should be moved to other systems for balancing like putting resolve on armor skills. Revamp the potion system to give major buffs instead of unique buffs. Revamp poisons to do minor debuffs. Doing this would drastically cut down on the unique proc calcs while also bringing more weight out of skill line choice depending on what passives each line gives.

Monomyth, this is just a flat power creep P2W if you want to be relevant, just like how scribing healing soul was. Remove the minor buffs atleast to start. If its too strong make the minor debuffs into majors. Problem solved in 2 patches.

Rallying is the pinnacle of group set issues with the game. Do you all realize the set incentivizes and benefits ballgroup/zergs to spam aoe dot heals........literally the worst performance inducing skills possible. How about you tie the proc effect to something like a purge or a single target aimed heal. There are hundreds of ways to make this set more performative lag wise.
Now talking stat wise the 2-4 line isnt crazy. Critchance isnt great in pvp theorycraft wise because of how stat balancing was done. Max mag for stam builds is wasted damage wise. Even for mag builds it comes out to only being worth about 85sd/wd towards your damage. For the 5 piece it is worth hundings+impreg 200% uptime (the cooldown and proc conditions are pointless calcs on the server) The group decay is such that at 10 players this buff is reduced by half, which HARDLY keeps smaller groups competitive vs larger groups, but it atleast balance wise is better than something like olorime. Lag wise it is atrocious though having to constantly calculate group size, aoe, timers, etc.

Wretched.......I honestly dont understand why people run regen sets because you should be getting your sustain through better sources like using food to trade off max stat or potions or mundus for efficiency. Otherwise the 5 piece is 780 total regen which is equivalent to 780wd as a flat bonus all the time (EXCEPT IT ISNT A FLAT BONUS.........IT IS A PROC THAT ADDS MORE CALCS ON THE SERVER!!!)

Ballgroups, idk just see my rallying cry rant. IMO at this stage in eso population they should be designing combat in pvp around making 4 man groups the most efficient stat wise. For "ballgroups" or larger groups combat should be dictated by who coordinates crucial skills/ults better, not just by who slots the 12 BIS passive builds that go Brrrrrrrr. For instance move more group mechanics onto unused ultimates. NB siphoning ult for example should be as crucial as negate for groups. Right now ballgroup builds are a byproduct of dumbing down the combat in the name of "Accessibility for the less fortunate"

Then make cyrodil or the new pvp game mode designed to incetivize small man teams spreading out during fights. Zos really screwed the pooch when they did the old resource/ap changes and turned cyrodil into a PvDoor waiting room bunching people up with the hammer.

Why does the server lag? idk taking a guess here, it might have something to do with zos ballooning every aspect of the game while also incentivizing the worst offenders to benefit by spamming the most repetitively calc dense everything.

Actually love your suggestions here mate, this is really good stuff. I wish ZOS would take this kind of constructive feedback on board. This clearly comes from a knowledgeable place of experience in PvP and I think you’re right on just about every point.

Oblivion_Protocol · 6:09AM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

keep12v1ing an dead zone lol

Game’s not dead, though. I get plenty of fights, and not all of them are “12 v 1” (though I don’t understand the reasoning behind complaining about getting killed by a group in a group-based mode).

PvP is what it is. Maybe things will change in a way that satisfies most of the playerbase, and maybe they won’t. But in the meantime, most of us are going to do what works, because that’s how we enjoy the game.

heimdall14_9 · 6:27AM

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

keep12v1ing an dead zone lol

Game’s not dead, though. I get plenty of fights, and not all of them are “12 v 1” (though I don’t understand the reasoning behind complaining about getting killed by a group in a group-based mode).

PvP is what it is. Maybe things will change in a way that satisfies most of the playerbase, and maybe they won’t. But in the meantime, most of us are going to do what works, because that’s how we enjoy the game.

and this what OP is talking about , am sure there is other VET PVP players that remember the OLD ways of running into an group of 24 players and 1v1ing untill you died or if you killed them that wanted to fight, dance around an lil and be CHILL for an min or 2 then go our own ways but nope not in 2025 12 people chasing 1 player across map is seen as OP and fun lol and on top of 12 players you have these sets that break all standards and 2-3 stacks of the same skill use by 5 others in group lol funny how it all goes hand and hand because to be honest this playstyle benefits non skilled players by using broken sets and skills KNOWN TO LAG OUT THE PLAYER ON THE OTHER END OF IT ALL so yes poor skilled players get to have their FUN at the cost of broken game play sounds really fun reason everyone always in here saying its not fun hmmm how is it both FUN and NOT FUN so UNFUN they been TESTING ways to fix for 3 years now lol

JohnRingo · 7:15AM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

keep12v1ing an dead zone lol

Game’s not dead, though. I get plenty of fights, and not all of them are “12 v 1” (though I don’t understand the reasoning behind complaining about getting killed by a group in a group-based mode).

PvP is what it is. Maybe things will change in a way that satisfies most of the playerbase, and maybe they won’t. But in the meantime, most of us are going to do what works, because that’s how we enjoy the game.

and this what OP is talking about , am sure there is other VET PVP players that remember the OLD ways of running into an group of 24 players and 1v1ing untill you died or if you killed them that wanted to fight, dance around an lil and be CHILL for an min or 2 then go our own ways but nope not in 2025 12 people chasing 1 player across map is seen as OP and fun lol and on top of 12 players you have these sets that break all standards and 2-3 stacks of the same skill use by 5 others in group lol funny how it all goes hand and hand because to be honest this playstyle benefits non skilled players by using broken sets and skills KNOWN TO LAG OUT THE PLAYER ON THE OTHER END OF IT ALL so yes poor skilled players get to have their FUN at the cost of broken game play sounds really fun reason everyone always in here saying its not fun hmmm how is it both FUN and NOT FUN so UNFUN they been TESTING ways to fix for 3 years now lol

(yawn) Adapt or die.

heimdall14_9 · 7:36AM

NOT ZOS , ESO DEVS,NOR 1 PERSON WILL CHANGE ESO PVP AS THE THINGS THAT REALLY NEED CHANGED IS PLAYER HABITS .......

yes we are gave the tools to do the things that are hurtful to the game BUT we dont have to use them NOR DO WE HAVE TO PROMOTE FOR MORE but for years the players has PROMOTED broken sets and exploits as the COOL THING TO DO ..... YES US PLAYERS as the ones doing these things are the ones we place as TOP player, TOP ball-group , TOP EXT EXT .... i get that we cant go around shaming others but in this case really the shame falls to us all for taking part in making something we ALL want to be FUN miserable to others by utilizing unbalanced skills and broken gear sets against each other not just NPCs and the BIG THING IS ESO CAN REWORK THE GAME 100XS if the players PROMOTE broken gear sets unbalanced skills and 0 fun in PVP fights nothing well get better or it well just go away all together ( there is already an pushing out op , tho its just as un-liked as broken pvp because players cant have carry sets do the work for them ) without the PLAYERS coming TOGETHER and SEEING WE NEED TO MAKE AN CHANGE FOR THE BETTER OF THE GAME AND find something else that works is fun but doesnt break the game and fun of PVP because you can see it in all parts of PVP cyrodill / ic / BGs so its not just that cyrodill gets supper lag but the whole game zones where pvp happens has became victim to it and we as educated adults know that WE ARE THE REASON FOR 85% IF NOT MORE of the issues we ALL HATE to fight BUT LOVE TO WEAR ....but i also understand that ego has A LOT to do with WHY PVP PLAYERS will never even for the betterment of the whole weaken themselves as theres always going to be that one guy lmao , THERES ALWAYS GOING TO BE THAT ONE GUY EGO OR NOT no one NEVER gets beat it happens to US all at some point and its ok really it is its just an game after al( and im glade about that dont think i could handle all the 1v20s otherwise ) where even dying can be fun ....

but really it is alot on US as the players why PVP has became UNFUN AND ZOS NOR THE DEV TEAM CAN FIX OUT BAD HABITS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND MAYBE ITS TIME TO FACE UP TO OUR ADOLESCENT AND BEOME ADUTS THAT WORK TOGETHER TO BETTER SOMETHING WE ALL LOVE and put down our broken sets and unbalanced game play and bring PVP back to an fun place to come kill and be killed ( as dying only teaches you what not to do next time )

JohnRingo · 7:55AM

but really it is alot on US as the players why PVP has became UNFUN AND ZOS NOR THE DEV TEAM CAN FIX OUT BAD HABITS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND MAYBE ITS TIME TO FACE UP TO OUR ADOLESCENT AND BEOME ADUTS THAT WORK TOGETHER TO BETTER SOMETHING WE ALL LOVE and put down our broken sets and unbalanced game play and bring PVP back to an fun place to come kill and be killed ( as dying only teaches you what not to do next time )

Grey Host has always been a competitive environment where people optimize within the rules that exist. Dying, learning, and adjusting is exactly how PvP stays alive—but that adaptation has to happen at the player level, not by asking others to voluntarily handicap themselves. The game improves when players improve, not when effectiveness is treated as bad behavior. Try harder. Just like the rest of us had to.

heimdall14_9 · 8:38AM

JohnRingo wrote: »

but really it is alot on US as the players why PVP has became UNFUN AND ZOS NOR THE DEV TEAM CAN FIX OUT BAD HABITS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND MAYBE ITS TIME TO FACE UP TO OUR ADOLESCENT AND BEOME ADUTS THAT WORK TOGETHER TO BETTER SOMETHING WE ALL LOVE and put down our broken sets and unbalanced game play and bring PVP back to an fun place to come kill and be killed ( as dying only teaches you what not to do next time )

Grey Host has always been a competitive environment where people optimize within the rules that exist. Dying, learning, and adjusting is exactly how PvP stays alive—but that adaptation has to happen at the player level, not by asking others to voluntarily handicap themselves. The game improves when players improve, not when effectiveness is treated as bad behavior. Try harder. Just like the rest of us had to.

thats the funny part eso PVP is by far not hard at all more so now that sets do all the work for you and 11 others while spamming 1 or 2 skills

being on top of leaderboards got old after 19 emp's so much i stopped making any camp my home , so am not saying anything out of being salty because im no good at pvp just the opposite ive ran broken sets vipper on a bow ,rally , dark cons, ext ext so ive been in support of WHAT PVP OF TODAY IS but i can also see the harm these type of actions has had on not just ME but the GAME as an WHOLE and really ITS NOT FUN ANYMORE !!!!!!! so if its not fun doing it im sure its not fun being on the other end just the same so WHERE IS THE FUN ???????

CoronHR · 9:41AM

this is the game zos made, so it's the one everyone plays. the copy/paste build isn't particularly new, it's just that subclassing amplified it beyond belief. and the cat's out of the bag, so it'll be hard for zos to get things to a varied, interesting state again. my idea of that would be a multitude of viable builds, but i don't see it happening. zos is working on class balancing now, but considering how they messed up the game with subclassing, i don't have much confidence that they can fix it. we'll see...

Radiate77 · 10:03AM

Game was messed up way before Subclassing.

I’m glad that the guard is changing, and we have new stewards of this IP, because I couldn’t see this game lasting another year with Matt at the head…

Now they just have to convince us that the game will last another two years.

Danse_Mayhem · 4:13PM

some of these newer answers are really disappointing.

Firstly, the adapt angle is a dumb one to take. I’m not talking as, or to, people who are new to the game, or can’t use the meta themselves, or even overcome it with their own ideas. I’m talking to the ones who are just bored of the same thing dominating, and they are usually the ones (like me) who have tried it and know first hand how busted some of it is.

Secondly, I’m not sure where the talk of cyrodil being ‘competitive’ is coming from? What exactly do you win in cyrodil? Sure you can win the campaign and gain emperor but those things are almost completely based on numbers and map coordination between the alliance, rather that sweat builds. Outside of that, all you are winning is fights. Is it -that- necessary to win every fight?

Thirdly, If you’re holding on to a Null / rally / balorghs build with warden base for charm / assassination / storm calling, or spamming rush of agony as part of a ball group every 8 seconds… because winning every fight is so important, even months after subclassing was released - Then you’re either one of those players with an ego to protect and can’t be clipped losing, or you aren’t a veteran that I’m aiming this post at.
A real pvp vet imo would have gotten bored of that busted stuff ages ago and would be well into the creative phase now of trying new things. There are so many possibilities and many of them actually work when given half a chance.

Respectfully, Please don’t weigh in here to essentially say “get gud” when you’re either missing the point entirely or not the target audience it’s intended for.

Danse_Mayhem · 4:25PM

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

NOT ZOS , ESO DEVS,NOR 1 PERSON WILL CHANGE ESO PVP AS THE THINGS THAT REALLY NEED CHANGED IS PLAYER HABITS .......

yes we are gave the tools to do the things that are hurtful to the game BUT we dont have to use them NOR DO WE HAVE TO PROMOTE FOR MORE but for years the players has PROMOTED broken sets and exploits as the COOL THING TO DO ..... YES US PLAYERS as the ones doing these things are the ones we place as TOP player, TOP ball-group , TOP EXT EXT .... i get that we cant go around shaming others but in this case really the shame falls to us all for taking part in making something we ALL want to be FUN miserable to others by utilizing unbalanced skills and broken gear sets against each other not just NPCs and the BIG THING IS ESO CAN REWORK THE GAME 100XS if the players PROMOTE broken gear sets unbalanced skills and 0 fun in PVP fights nothing well get better or it well just go away all together ( there is already an pushing out op , tho its just as un-liked as broken pvp because players cant have carry sets do the work for them ) without the PLAYERS coming TOGETHER and SEEING WE NEED TO MAKE AN CHANGE FOR THE BETTER OF THE GAME AND find something else that works is fun but doesnt break the game and fun of PVP because you can see it in all parts of PVP cyrodill / ic / BGs so its not just that cyrodill gets supper lag but the whole game zones where pvp happens has became victim to it and we as educated adults know that WE ARE THE REASON FOR 85% IF NOT MORE of the issues we ALL HATE to fight BUT LOVE TO WEAR ....but i also understand that ego has A LOT to do with WHY PVP PLAYERS will never even for the betterment of the whole weaken themselves as theres always going to be that one guy lmao , THERES ALWAYS GOING TO BE THAT ONE GUY EGO OR NOT no one NEVER gets beat it happens to US all at some point and its ok really it is its just an game after al( and im glade about that dont think i could handle all the 1v20s otherwise ) where even dying can be fun ....

but really it is alot on US as the players why PVP has became UNFUN AND ZOS NOR THE DEV TEAM CAN FIX OUT BAD HABITS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND MAYBE ITS TIME TO FACE UP TO OUR ADOLESCENT AND BEOME ADUTS THAT WORK TOGETHER TO BETTER SOMETHING WE ALL LOVE and put down our broken sets and unbalanced game play and bring PVP back to an fun place to come kill and be killed ( as dying only teaches you what not to do next time )

This guy gets it.

Does anyone remember when Dark Convergence came out? Sure, I absolutely think ZOS were insane for releasing a set that spawned a black hole, that pulled twice, one shotted people inside it and had a low cooldown (pre nerf) but the playerbase still made the choice to use it… and that was one of, if not the most miserable PvP patch to date, with cyrodil and BGs being a non stop spam of dark convergence just pulling people around.

Before that, viper + velidreth / tremorscale was a thing to one shot people from stealth, and so on.

The lazy response of “I won’t nerf myself it’s all ZOS fault the game is stale” whilst actively being the problem with broken sets / skills / copy paste subclass combos, when you have other options, is exactly why I’m talking about here. If nothing else else, take this as a friendly reminder that you don’t have to run that garbage, you have the choice to run something different, and whilst you may die a bit more learning it, and even afterward, that’s really okay.

El_Borracho · 4:25PM

@Thumbless_Bot Elf Bane-Zaan, with both in their original form, was super fun. A literal player-melter. It was not a surprise to anyone when they changed Zaan as it was putting out massive damage. So then I too switched to Grothdaar, which was pretty strong.

But even when Elf Bane-Zaan was at its peak, it wasn't the mess we have today. You could counter, interrupt, avoid, whatever and didn't need a 50K cheese build to do it. Heck, I don't remember anyone being above 25K and 30K was a tank. There were still ball groups and the zerg, but that could also be dealt with much easier than today as Valkyn Skoria was a legitimately strong set and an incredible counter to groups, werewolves were viable, sets like Fury, 7th Legion, and Elegance existed, and oblivion damage was tuned correctly. Just shows you how much the game has changed.

And yes, Torc is still useful on a DK especially for single target. Glad someone else appreciates that.

Ugrak · 4:45PM

CoronHR wrote: »

this is the game zos made, so it's the one everyone plays. the copy/paste build isn't particularly new, it's just that subclassing amplified it beyond belief. and the cat's out of the bag, so it'll be hard for zos to get things to a varied, interesting state again. my idea of that would be a multitude of viable builds, but i don't see it happening. zos is working on class balancing now, but considering how they messed up the game with subclassing, i don't have much confidence that they can fix it. we'll see...

Champion points were also broken when they replaced veteran ranks. It used to be you could just max basically everything. They then made it so you had to pick slottables and so on like it is today. I think they have to do something similar with subclassing.

In other words make tanking, damage and healing trees and balance those against each other. Plus probably make some limit that while subclassing, you have to have one of each same as your base class already is built.

Pure classes can be further encouraged through granting them power through synergizing stuff between the trees of a class, which you will lose some of by subclassing. Still subclassing should remain as a viable option to gain a slightly different set of tools for whatever build you're going for.

Oblivion_Protocol · 5:16PM

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

some of these newer answers are really disappointing.

Firstly, the adapt angle is a dumb one to take. I’m not talking as, or to, people who are new to the game, or can’t use the meta themselves, or even overcome it with their own ideas. I’m talking to the ones who are just bored of the same thing dominating, and they are usually the ones (like me) who have tried it and know first hand how busted some of it is.

Secondly, I’m not sure where the talk of cyrodil being ‘competitive’ is coming from? What exactly do you win in cyrodil? Sure you can win the campaign and gain emperor but those things are almost completely based on numbers and map coordination between the alliance, rather that sweat builds. Outside of that, all you are winning is fights. Is it -that- necessary to win every fight?

Thirdly, If you’re holding on to a Null / rally / balorghs build with warden base for charm / assassination / storm calling, or spamming rush of agony as part of a ball group every 8 seconds… because winning every fight is so important, even months after subclassing was released - Then you’re either one of those players with an ego to protect and can’t be clipped losing, or you aren’t a veteran that I’m aiming this post at.

1. People are saying to adapt because, frankly, that’s how PvP works. You figure out a build, figure out counterplay, figure out strategies. You’re bored of seeing the same sets? The onus isn’t on us to stop using them to appease you. It’s on you to find something else that works and that you enjoy.

2. By the very definition of a fight, there is supposed to be a winner and a loser. ‘Competitive’ just means that the purpose is to win. It’s not an ego thing. It’s the point of the game mode. It’s how a lot of us have fun.

3. Again, it’s not always about ego. Yes, there are some players who get personally offended when they get killed in a game. But for the majority of us, we want to win because that’s the whole point of the mode. Let’s put it this way: when I 1vX someone on a meta build, it's “exploiting”, I’m “crutching on the meta”, I’m “just humping rocks/towers like a coward”. When they kill me with five of their buddies, suddenly it’s “skill”, because winning is the point for a lot of players.

So many of these anti-meta threads often boil down to “meta users should stop having fun because I’m not having fun”, or “ball groups are ruining the game because they aren’t fun”. I’ve been in ball groups where we were just laughing and having the time of our lives because we got to engage in coordinated high-end gameplay with objectives outside of what the game set in front of us. It’s theorycrafting taken to its highest limit, which is also fun.

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

A real pvp vet imo would have gotten bored of that busted stuff ages ago and would be well into the creative phase now of trying new things. There are so many possibilities and many of them actually work when given half a chance.

Did you ever stop and think that some of us “real PvP vets” are using meta stuff BECAUSE we grew bored? Or because we got tired of working hard to come up with a unique build just to see it get nerfed into the dirt for no reason? Or because…God forbid…we think it’s fun?

Also, if there are “so many possibilities and many of them work”, then what’s the complaint? Grab one of those possibilities, make it work, and have fun.

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

Respectfully, Please don’t weigh in here to essentially say “get gud” when you’re either missing the point entirely or not the target audience it’s intended for.

Respectfully, your post was addressed to veteran PvP players who use meta sets. I am a veteran player who uses meta sets. I am literally your target audience, bullseye on my forehead.

And I’m sorry, but it all sort of boils down to “git gud” or “stop caring so much and have fun”. Let’s not pretend that meta users have zero skill in PvP. If that’s the case, you’ve never seen someone new to PvP try to waltz in wearing meta gear and get buried anyway. Alternatively, I’ve been killed multiple times by players on off-meta setups because they were just better at the game.

Your point is that you’re tired of the meta. But you don’t use meta setups. So what are you tired of? Losing to the meta? But winning all the time is an ego thing, so surely you just want to have fun. And, as you pointed out, there are many possibilities for builds that work. So if there are possibilities out there, and they work, and they’re fun, why does it bother you so much that I and other players use meta sets when it doesn’t affect what you’re doing? Unless you just want to win. But winning isn’t so important that one needs to hold onto meta sets for it, so you should just have fun on non-meta builds, which means the meta shouldn't affect you, and…and…and…

Do you see now why I said no one’s doing this?