Honestly - Is Vengeance Viable?

Artisian0001 · December 17

xylena wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I am not sure how else to say this but...probably the actual bloody game that we bought.

GH isn't even remotely close to the original product I bought in 2014.

Instakills were rare and generally only against jank builds.

Ball groups could be scattered by siege.

You could 1v1 gank ball groupers inside their ball.

Classes and weapons defined builds, not gear sets.

Soft caps on stats prevented extreme minmaxing from breaking the meta.

Gameplay pace was slower, but fewer fights stalemated.

This is all much more like Vengeance than GH.

Ballgroups are still scattered by siege, literally all the time. A 12 man group can be pushed off a door by 4 people sieging if they do it effectively, which is insane.

You can still very much gank ballgroupers inside their group, it's just difficult, as it should be.

Stalemate fights only happen between extremely large groups over 12 people that res constantly during combat and at camps, which could easily be changed, the only other fights that stalemate are because players are not skilled enough to end fights.

The game progressed and for the better, people that complain about this stuff think an uncoordinated group of people should be able to push off a coordinated group of people which makes zero logical sense, if smaller groups could pressure larger groups, imagine what that smaller group could do if they were larger !!!! Like, none of that make sense. A bigger group of better coordinated players will kill smaller groups of less coordinated players, as well as larger groups of less skill or less coordinated players, there is nothing wrong with that, if it was any way else the game wouldn't make any sense and it would be based solely on RNG.

xylena · December 17

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Ballgroups are still scattered by siege, literally all the time. A 12 man group can be pushed off a door by 4 people sieging if they do it effectively, which is insane.

Nobody cares what bad groups do, and it is NOT insane for an outnumbered group to punish 12 guys who think they can just blob together and spam heal buttons to be immortal.

MincMincMinc · December 17

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I am not sure how else to say this but...probably the actual bloody game that we bought.

GH isn't even remotely close to the original product I bought in 2014.

Instakills were rare and generally only against jank builds.

Ball groups could be scattered by siege.

You could 1v1 gank ball groupers inside their ball.

Classes and weapons defined builds, not gear sets.

Soft caps on stats prevented extreme minmaxing from breaking the meta.

Gameplay pace was slower, but fewer fights stalemated.

This is all much more like Vengeance than GH.

Ballgroups are still scattered by siege, literally all the time. A 12 man group can be pushed off a door by 4 people sieging if they do it effectively, which is insane.

You can still very much gank ballgroupers inside their group, it's just difficult, as it should be.

Stalemate fights only happen between extremely large groups over 12 people that res constantly during combat and at camps, which could easily be changed, the only other fights that stalemate are because players are not skilled enough to end fights.

The game progressed and for the better, people that complain about this stuff think an uncoordinated group of people should be able to push off a coordinated group of people which makes zero logical sense, if smaller groups could pressure larger groups, imagine what that smaller group could do if they were larger !!!! Like, none of that make sense. A bigger group of better coordinated players will kill smaller groups of less coordinated players, as well as larger groups of less skill or less coordinated players, there is nothing wrong with that, if it was any way else the game wouldn't make any sense and it would be based solely on RNG.

IDK what ballgroups you are thinking about, but seige is literally a joke. Even I only run 1vX or 4 man groups and we sit in seige all the time. Powercreep and heals are so stupidly high and easy that seige is probably doing half of what it used to.

The problem with the structure of group play in eso pvp is that because zos introduced so many group sets they created an exponential growth of stats the more players you have up to a 12 man group. Whereas back in the day it was practically linear except for a small handful of viable group sets. So as a smallman with good coordination you could potentially match a 12 man group. However with more and more stacking group sets like rallying, PA, Trans, SPC, etc these groups sit ontop of a very high exponential plateau of stats. It is not only set, but skills have bloated to the point any average build can get most necessary major/minor buffs in the game, in a group you should easily have everything. In a dying population game, catering to the largest group size possible and giving them more stats while also having the most population is a recipe for disaster, at that point it would be like giving the largest playground bully a chainsaw.

The plataeu is not a great thing because you essentially gate half the server onto the plateau only fighting each other. Which is why we see ballgroups either just fighting each other or doing boring pug stomp farms unopposed. If you did not have this plateau or less of a plateau we would see more new player involvement because the power difference would be more down to skill and coordination instead of a mountain of stats and buffs. (also just to mention if we did it in a smart enough way you could cut down on lag and unnecessary calcs)

Maybe this can visually help. The blue line represents a linear stacking of players in a group. Imagine if they were all just wearing generic stat sets. Where the green and purple signify a 4 and 12 man group running group sets like rallying cry. Keep in mind that I wrote 30+ as if you actually compare and add up the stats a group set 12 man should have the combined stats of nearly 10x the player count of generic stat sets.

JustLovely · December 17

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.

ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.

It sure was. Now ZOS is refusing to even try to fix Grey Host, which was an original part of the game from the beginning.

So a few points here.

First, ZOS should fix the PvP they originally designed into the game. They can fix it. It might take some effort or investment they don't want to make, but it can be done. They've done it before. They can do it again. So ZOS stating they're not even going to try fixing their product going forward is a vendor saying they're selling a product they're not going to support. This is obviously a highly self destructive business and public relations decision.

Second, if ZOS can't make their premier PvP work smoothly and reliably as it is now, they're not going to be able to make some other new system work smoothly and reliably either.

And third, if the last three days are any indication, essentially nobody will play vengeance with or without an alternative. The last three nights prime time PC NA has been pop locked for Grey Host and vengeance hasn't even filled one bar of population. Almost nobody likes vengeance.

Any investments into vengeance should be ceased immediately to save resources so ZOS can invest in actually fixing their game as opposed to creating something totally different. I mean, what's happened to all those "THEY'RE WORKING ON IT!" explanations and commitments to the player base?

I feel the same way. They've been telling us for a decade that they're working on fixing Cyrodiil performance. Who could ever forget the "THEY'RE WORKING ON IT" video? Or all the statements directly from ZOS claiming they're working on it. But what have we seen in terms of results? Not much. Maybe it's time they actually started working on GH and giving it an honest effort.

Artisian0001 · December 17

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Ballgroups are still scattered by siege, literally all the time. A 12 man group can be pushed off a door by 4 people sieging if they do it effectively, which is insane.

Nobody cares what bad groups do, and it is NOT insane for an outnumbered group to punish 12 guys who think they can just blob together and spam heal buttons to be immortal.

I don't know what you are even responding to. It isn't just bad groups that get scattered by siege, if the siegers themselves are good they can push even a good group off the door with just 4 people. I agree it isn't insane for an outnumbered group to punish 12 people, what point are you making? You didn't respond with substance to anything in what I posted, as per usual.

Artisian0001 · December 17

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I am not sure how else to say this but...probably the actual bloody game that we bought.

GH isn't even remotely close to the original product I bought in 2014.

Instakills were rare and generally only against jank builds.

Ball groups could be scattered by siege.

You could 1v1 gank ball groupers inside their ball.

Classes and weapons defined builds, not gear sets.

Soft caps on stats prevented extreme minmaxing from breaking the meta.

Gameplay pace was slower, but fewer fights stalemated.

This is all much more like Vengeance than GH.

Ballgroups are still scattered by siege, literally all the time. A 12 man group can be pushed off a door by 4 people sieging if they do it effectively, which is insane.

You can still very much gank ballgroupers inside their group, it's just difficult, as it should be.

Stalemate fights only happen between extremely large groups over 12 people that res constantly during combat and at camps, which could easily be changed, the only other fights that stalemate are because players are not skilled enough to end fights.

The game progressed and for the better, people that complain about this stuff think an uncoordinated group of people should be able to push off a coordinated group of people which makes zero logical sense, if smaller groups could pressure larger groups, imagine what that smaller group could do if they were larger !!!! Like, none of that make sense. A bigger group of better coordinated players will kill smaller groups of less coordinated players, as well as larger groups of less skill or less coordinated players, there is nothing wrong with that, if it was any way else the game wouldn't make any sense and it would be based solely on RNG.

IDK what ballgroups you are thinking about, but seige is literally a joke. Even I only run 1vX or 4 man groups and we sit in seige all the time. Powercreep and heals are so stupidly high and easy that seige is probably doing half of what it used to.

The problem with the structure of group play in eso pvp is that because zos introduced so many group sets they created an exponential growth of stats the more players you have up to a 12 man group. Whereas back in the day it was practically linear except for a small handful of viable group sets. So as a smallman with good coordination you could potentially match a 12 man group. However with more and more stacking group sets like rallying, PA, Trans, SPC, etc these groups sit ontop of a very high exponential plateau of stats. It is not only set, but skills have bloated to the point any average build can get most necessary major/minor buffs in the game, in a group you should easily have everything. In a dying population game, catering to the largest group size possible and giving them more stats while also having the most population is a recipe for disaster, at that point it would be like giving the largest playground bully a chainsaw.

The plataeu is not a great thing because you essentially gate half the server onto the plateau only fighting each other. Which is why we see ballgroups either just fighting each other or doing boring pug stomp farms unopposed. If you did not have this plateau or less of a plateau we would see more new player involvement because the power difference would be more down to skill and coordination instead of a mountain of stats and buffs. (also just to mention if we did it in a smart enough way you could cut down on lag and unnecessary calcs)

Maybe this can visually help. The blue line represents a linear stacking of players in a group. Imagine if they were all just wearing generic stat sets. Where the green and purple signify a 4 and 12 man group running group sets like rallying cry. Keep in mind that I wrote 30+ as if you actually compare and add up the stats a group set 12 man should have the combined stats of nearly 10x the player count of generic stat sets.

Yeah, this is a common misunderstanding of how the game works or how it feels to actually be under siege pressure, or you are just unaware because smaller groups don't experience this issue, which is fine. If you are in a larger group of people you almost never want to purge or have someone that can cleanse because this would lead to plaguebreak going off and potentially killing everyone, which isn't as big of a problem in smaller groups, and shouldn't be, which is why I prefer smaller groups. The point is, if you are a larger group on a door, oils has a unique debuff that reduces healing by more than any skill in ESO can, aside from some PvE dungeons that have mechanics that will just disable it, or something like carrying the chaosball for an extender period of time. If you are not purging oils because you also have plague on you, the healing debuff, along with the damage from it and the other siege from 3 coordinated siegers, is 100% enough to push good groups off the door, and it happens very often, if you don't understand how 4 people can rotate 8 different siege extremely easily then just get 3 other friends who you think are competent and watch your own group push 12 people off a door.

I agree to your other points, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, there are sets introduced that make being in coordinated groups even stronger, that's exactly why coordinated groups SHOULD not be dying to other smaller uncoordinated groups often, as that would make no sense unless the coordinated group was full of just unskilled players. While people may dislike these sets, every single person can wear them, every single person can get in or make a group of their own. This is an MMO, playing with friends is normal, if you want to complain about bigger groups winning because they have coordination and skill, then you can go to BGs, or go to IC, or just go duel. Sure, it sucks being pushed by 12 people who have everything they need in their group, but it used to be 24 and sets like transmutation, PA, etc. still existed. Rallying cry also scales better with the fewer people you have, it still has a unique crit resist that can be given to everyone, but the devs have some interest in doing things that have benefits for smaller groups. Plaguebreak, as mentioned before, is another one of these sets. It just so happens that these sets can also be run by those in groups, but will still always function better against them then on them, if those applying can do it properly. Ballgroups have for the most part completely removed a purger from their group just because of the introduction of this set, but you see smaller groups and singular players with sometimes multiple ways to purge. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and accept that these groups will kill you, but to call them immortal like other people do is silly and loses credibility in any conversation.

MincMincMinc · December 17

Artisian0001 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I am not sure how else to say this but...probably the actual bloody game that we bought.

GH isn't even remotely close to the original product I bought in 2014.

Instakills were rare and generally only against jank builds.

Ball groups could be scattered by siege.

You could 1v1 gank ball groupers inside their ball.

Classes and weapons defined builds, not gear sets.

Soft caps on stats prevented extreme minmaxing from breaking the meta.

Gameplay pace was slower, but fewer fights stalemated.

This is all much more like Vengeance than GH.

Ballgroups are still scattered by siege, literally all the time. A 12 man group can be pushed off a door by 4 people sieging if they do it effectively, which is insane.

You can still very much gank ballgroupers inside their group, it's just difficult, as it should be.

Stalemate fights only happen between extremely large groups over 12 people that res constantly during combat and at camps, which could easily be changed, the only other fights that stalemate are because players are not skilled enough to end fights.

The game progressed and for the better, people that complain about this stuff think an uncoordinated group of people should be able to push off a coordinated group of people which makes zero logical sense, if smaller groups could pressure larger groups, imagine what that smaller group could do if they were larger !!!! Like, none of that make sense. A bigger group of better coordinated players will kill smaller groups of less coordinated players, as well as larger groups of less skill or less coordinated players, there is nothing wrong with that, if it was any way else the game wouldn't make any sense and it would be based solely on RNG.

IDK what ballgroups you are thinking about, but seige is literally a joke. Even I only run 1vX or 4 man groups and we sit in seige all the time. Powercreep and heals are so stupidly high and easy that seige is probably doing half of what it used to.

The problem with the structure of group play in eso pvp is that because zos introduced so many group sets they created an exponential growth of stats the more players you have up to a 12 man group. Whereas back in the day it was practically linear except for a small handful of viable group sets. So as a smallman with good coordination you could potentially match a 12 man group. However with more and more stacking group sets like rallying, PA, Trans, SPC, etc these groups sit ontop of a very high exponential plateau of stats. It is not only set, but skills have bloated to the point any average build can get most necessary major/minor buffs in the game, in a group you should easily have everything. In a dying population game, catering to the largest group size possible and giving them more stats while also having the most population is a recipe for disaster, at that point it would be like giving the largest playground bully a chainsaw.

The plataeu is not a great thing because you essentially gate half the server onto the plateau only fighting each other. Which is why we see ballgroups either just fighting each other or doing boring pug stomp farms unopposed. If you did not have this plateau or less of a plateau we would see more new player involvement because the power difference would be more down to skill and coordination instead of a mountain of stats and buffs. (also just to mention if we did it in a smart enough way you could cut down on lag and unnecessary calcs)

Maybe this can visually help. The blue line represents a linear stacking of players in a group. Imagine if they were all just wearing generic stat sets. Where the green and purple signify a 4 and 12 man group running group sets like rallying cry. Keep in mind that I wrote 30+ as if you actually compare and add up the stats a group set 12 man should have the combined stats of nearly 10x the player count of generic stat sets.

Yeah, this is a common misunderstanding of how the game works or how it feels to actually be under siege pressure, or you are just unaware because smaller groups don't experience this issue, which is fine. If you are in a larger group of people you almost never want to purge or have someone that can cleanse because this would lead to plaguebreak going off and potentially killing everyone, which isn't as big of a problem in smaller groups, and shouldn't be, which is why I prefer smaller groups. The point is, if you are a larger group on a door, oils has a unique debuff that reduces healing by more than any skill in ESO can, aside from some PvE dungeons that have mechanics that will just disable it, or something like carrying the chaosball for an extender period of time. If you are not purging oils because you also have plague on you, the healing debuff, along with the damage from it and the other siege from 3 coordinated siegers, is 100% enough to push good groups off the door, and it happens very often, if you don't understand how 4 people can rotate 8 different siege extremely easily then just get 3 other friends who you think are competent and watch your own group push 12 people off a door.

I agree to your other points, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, there are sets introduced that make being in coordinated groups even stronger, that's exactly why coordinated groups SHOULD not be dying to other smaller uncoordinated groups often, as that would make no sense unless the coordinated group was full of just unskilled players. While people may dislike these sets, every single person can wear them, every single person can get in or make a group of their own. This is an MMO, playing with friends is normal, if you want to complain about bigger groups winning because they have coordination and skill, then you can go to BGs, or go to IC, or just go duel. Sure, it sucks being pushed by 12 people who have everything they need in their group, but it used to be 24 and sets like transmutation, PA, etc. still existed. Rallying cry also scales better with the fewer people you have, it still has a unique crit resist that can be given to everyone, but the devs have some interest in doing things that have benefits for smaller groups. Plaguebreak, as mentioned before, is another one of these sets. It just so happens that these sets can also be run by those in groups, but will still always function better against them then on them, if those applying can do it properly. Ballgroups have for the most part completely removed a purger from their group just because of the introduction of this set, but you see smaller groups and singular players with sometimes multiple ways to purge. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and accept that these groups will kill you, but to call them immortal like other people do is silly and loses credibility in any conversation.

Its that with the old handful of viable group sets in pvp, that plateau kept the smallman and 12man groups roughly at the same plateau. Now due to dlc quotas and releases inevitably the group set selection has grown from a handful to a larger selection raising the possible plateau such that you NEED 12 people to hit the plateau.

My point again was that in a dying pop game that keeps cutting server pop in half, it is not going to end well when the plateau stays raised. Yes it was fine that 12 coordinated players could fight the 50-60 man groups and use these sets to even the odds. However the current reality is that a vast majority of the time we are not seeing 50-60 man zergs anymore compared to back in the day. What will happen when zos's new mini seige gamemode reduces player caps to 60 players? The only viable playstyles will be group bomb trolling or sitting in a 12 man. Inevitably smallscale and pug surfing will die out from boredom leaving guild groups to gvg. All it takes then for it to die is when a guild leader getting bored and disbands leaving a power vacuum......leading to one faction losing ......leading to the strongest faction holding the entire map. Which is the exact same way the under50 and nocp campaigns died out as their populations dwindled.

YandereGirlfriend · December 17

Definitely also want to chime-in that "One does not simply sit in siege..." as a ballgroup.

The debuff from oils is outlandish and it stacks with the number of oils active on a player. As such, it is not uncommon to see a powerful burst heal like Blessing of Restoration CRIT for like 800HP on a target that is sitting on a ram. Vigors, Radiating, etc. are ticking for like 100 per tick, which is basically nonexistent. You add a skilled enemy solo-bomber or a Negate on top of that and it is very easy to die. Anyone saying otherwise is peddling an uninformed take.

It IS very much true though that some factions siege better and some do it worse. This will directly affect your perception as to how "immortal" an enemy ballgroup feels. On PC-NA, for example, DC are absolutely tragic siegers and basically ignore it completely even when an enemy ballgroup shows up. DC, for the most part, also have never heard of this skill named "Negate". That makes them super easy to farm, as they are essentially uncoordinated solo players walking haplessly into obvious bombs.

Contrast that with AD who have quite effective PUG-wranglers that teach them the extremely high value of siege and of fielding Negates. Anyone who ballgroups against AD knows that it is the most difficult faction to fight because you face a huge number of Negates and that siege is the first thing to be deployed as soon as a call-out is made in their zone chat. It is very annoying but it is also very smart because it is BY FAR the best-in-slot tactic to use against ballgroups.

I do think that there is an odd sort of mentality where folk think that they are going to 1vX or bow-gank an enemy ballgroup into submission and then they tilted when that turns out not to be possible. You are simply using the wrong tool for the job. Instead go buy some oils, meatbags, and scattershots and use that at every opportunity. Then subclass Dark Magic and slot Negate and cast it when the ballgroup is under pressure from other siegers. Then tell your friends in zone to do the same.

Artisian0001 · December 17

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I am not sure how else to say this but...probably the actual bloody game that we bought.

GH isn't even remotely close to the original product I bought in 2014.

Instakills were rare and generally only against jank builds.

Ball groups could be scattered by siege.

You could 1v1 gank ball groupers inside their ball.

Classes and weapons defined builds, not gear sets.

Soft caps on stats prevented extreme minmaxing from breaking the meta.

Gameplay pace was slower, but fewer fights stalemated.

This is all much more like Vengeance than GH.

Ballgroups are still scattered by siege, literally all the time. A 12 man group can be pushed off a door by 4 people sieging if they do it effectively, which is insane.

You can still very much gank ballgroupers inside their group, it's just difficult, as it should be.

Stalemate fights only happen between extremely large groups over 12 people that res constantly during combat and at camps, which could easily be changed, the only other fights that stalemate are because players are not skilled enough to end fights.

The game progressed and for the better, people that complain about this stuff think an uncoordinated group of people should be able to push off a coordinated group of people which makes zero logical sense, if smaller groups could pressure larger groups, imagine what that smaller group could do if they were larger !!!! Like, none of that make sense. A bigger group of better coordinated players will kill smaller groups of less coordinated players, as well as larger groups of less skill or less coordinated players, there is nothing wrong with that, if it was any way else the game wouldn't make any sense and it would be based solely on RNG.

IDK what ballgroups you are thinking about, but seige is literally a joke. Even I only run 1vX or 4 man groups and we sit in seige all the time. Powercreep and heals are so stupidly high and easy that seige is probably doing half of what it used to.

The problem with the structure of group play in eso pvp is that because zos introduced so many group sets they created an exponential growth of stats the more players you have up to a 12 man group. Whereas back in the day it was practically linear except for a small handful of viable group sets. So as a smallman with good coordination you could potentially match a 12 man group. However with more and more stacking group sets like rallying, PA, Trans, SPC, etc these groups sit ontop of a very high exponential plateau of stats. It is not only set, but skills have bloated to the point any average build can get most necessary major/minor buffs in the game, in a group you should easily have everything. In a dying population game, catering to the largest group size possible and giving them more stats while also having the most population is a recipe for disaster, at that point it would be like giving the largest playground bully a chainsaw.

The plataeu is not a great thing because you essentially gate half the server onto the plateau only fighting each other. Which is why we see ballgroups either just fighting each other or doing boring pug stomp farms unopposed. If you did not have this plateau or less of a plateau we would see more new player involvement because the power difference would be more down to skill and coordination instead of a mountain of stats and buffs. (also just to mention if we did it in a smart enough way you could cut down on lag and unnecessary calcs)

Maybe this can visually help. The blue line represents a linear stacking of players in a group. Imagine if they were all just wearing generic stat sets. Where the green and purple signify a 4 and 12 man group running group sets like rallying cry. Keep in mind that I wrote 30+ as if you actually compare and add up the stats a group set 12 man should have the combined stats of nearly 10x the player count of generic stat sets.

Yeah, this is a common misunderstanding of how the game works or how it feels to actually be under siege pressure, or you are just unaware because smaller groups don't experience this issue, which is fine. If you are in a larger group of people you almost never want to purge or have someone that can cleanse because this would lead to plaguebreak going off and potentially killing everyone, which isn't as big of a problem in smaller groups, and shouldn't be, which is why I prefer smaller groups. The point is, if you are a larger group on a door, oils has a unique debuff that reduces healing by more than any skill in ESO can, aside from some PvE dungeons that have mechanics that will just disable it, or something like carrying the chaosball for an extender period of time. If you are not purging oils because you also have plague on you, the healing debuff, along with the damage from it and the other siege from 3 coordinated siegers, is 100% enough to push good groups off the door, and it happens very often, if you don't understand how 4 people can rotate 8 different siege extremely easily then just get 3 other friends who you think are competent and watch your own group push 12 people off a door.

I agree to your other points, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, there are sets introduced that make being in coordinated groups even stronger, that's exactly why coordinated groups SHOULD not be dying to other smaller uncoordinated groups often, as that would make no sense unless the coordinated group was full of just unskilled players. While people may dislike these sets, every single person can wear them, every single person can get in or make a group of their own. This is an MMO, playing with friends is normal, if you want to complain about bigger groups winning because they have coordination and skill, then you can go to BGs, or go to IC, or just go duel. Sure, it sucks being pushed by 12 people who have everything they need in their group, but it used to be 24 and sets like transmutation, PA, etc. still existed. Rallying cry also scales better with the fewer people you have, it still has a unique crit resist that can be given to everyone, but the devs have some interest in doing things that have benefits for smaller groups. Plaguebreak, as mentioned before, is another one of these sets. It just so happens that these sets can also be run by those in groups, but will still always function better against them then on them, if those applying can do it properly. Ballgroups have for the most part completely removed a purger from their group just because of the introduction of this set, but you see smaller groups and singular players with sometimes multiple ways to purge. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and accept that these groups will kill you, but to call them immortal like other people do is silly and loses credibility in any conversation.

Its that with the old handful of viable group sets in pvp, that plateau kept the smallman and 12man groups roughly at the same plateau. Now due to dlc quotas and releases inevitably the group set selection has grown from a handful to a larger selection raising the possible plateau such that you NEED 12 people to hit the plateau.

My point again was that in a dying pop game that keeps cutting server pop in half, it is not going to end well when the plateau stays raised. Yes it was fine that 12 coordinated players could fight the 50-60 man groups and use these sets to even the odds. However the current reality is that a vast majority of the time we are not seeing 50-60 man zergs anymore compared to back in the day. What will happen when zos's new mini seige gamemode reduces player caps to 60 players? The only viable playstyles will be group bomb trolling or sitting in a 12 man. Inevitably smallscale and pug surfing will die out from boredom leaving guild groups to gvg. All it takes then for it to die is when a guild leader getting bored and disbands leaving a power vacuum......leading to one faction losing ......leading to the strongest faction holding the entire map. Which is the exact same way the under50 and nocp campaigns died out as their populations dwindled.

What plateau are you even speaking of, transmutation in a 24 man group is leagues ahead of rally cry in any size group, same with PA in a group that size. Groups WERE stronger back then, people will always just complain about what they die to. I don't know what game you are playing but I see 50 man zergs literally every day during primetime/late night volendrung spawns.

Your next comment doesn't even make sense and is just pure assumption based on nothing at all. What is your evidence that the only thing that would be viable in a smaller sized campaign is a 12 man group or bombing? If the population caps are higher and other group sizes are viable, why would lowering the cap increase the group size necessary? This is how every argument on the forums goes, just random points backed up by nothing with sheer confidence. Accept that playstyles evolve as changes are made and some groups adapt to it better. If you can't adapt and keep up with a skill level that will always rise as the game is out for a longer period of time and people have more experience that's just part of every game, you can move on. The game was less balanced when groups of 24 were allowed to run around unpunished with group sets and a purge spammer, the only reason it feels worse now is the players in 12 man groups are way better than the players were in those 24 man groups.

I don't mind keeping Vengeance around, removing it because it's extremely unpopular, adding a mid sized campaign, or just keeping only present day GH around. I like groups of 4-6 and that's exactly what I'd bring to a mid sized campaign, but I never sit here and complain about 12 man groups because if I want to kill them I will get on with a group of 8 better players and kill them, or just die to them with my 4 if they are skilled because that is what is supposed to happen. People need to learn to accept that and address the real issues because balance is okay, performance is not.

xylena · December 18

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You didn't respond with substance to anything in what I posted, as per usual.

It takes multiple meatbags + oils + negates + aoe dumps all at once to begin to threaten a competitive ball group. If a group scatters to just siege, they're either not doing the ball strat correctly, or they're not a ball group, i.e. smallscale on all DD builds.

The only engagement relevant to the argument is the competitive ball group scenario.

Artisian0001 · December 18

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You didn't respond with substance to anything in what I posted, as per usual.

It takes multiple meatbags + oils + negates + aoe dumps all at once to begin to threaten a competitive ball group. If a group scatters to just siege, they're either not doing the ball strat correctly, or they're not a ball group, i.e. smallscale on all DD builds.

The only engagement relevant to the argument is the competitive ball group scenario.

Read not only my but Yandere's comment. You have literally ZERO understanding of what it takes. 4 people can push off a coordinated group of 12 if done properly on a door. If that isn't good enough for you then this isn't the game for you, and you should stop talking about stuff you know nothing about.

xylena · December 18

Artisian0001 wrote: »

4 people can push off a coordinated group of 12 if done properly

I can push 12 guys off a door by myself if they're bad enough.

4 guys aren't pushing 2021 Dracarys off a door. 40 guys aren't pushing them off.

Artisian0001 · December 18

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

4 people can push off a coordinated group of 12 if done properly

I can push 12 guys off a door by myself if they're bad enough.

4 guys aren't pushing 2021 Dracarys off a door. 40 guys aren't pushing them off.

You again, know literally nothing about ballgroups. The best ballgroups will be pushed off a door by 4 coordinated players, not bad ballgroups, but the best. Drac is by far, much worse than current day ballgroups. Do I expect you to know this? No, of course not, you just post propaganda and uninformed opinions constantly. Players in Drac tried ballgrouping the last few years and would lose to plenty of other groups, even 8v12 fights. Adrestia is the best and has been the best for a long time, Ego Tech are good, the last iteration of Tyr was still better than current Drac, so was Boned or hold block. All these groups and more will tell you they will get off a door if 4 people are sieging effectively. If you do not understand that, that's fine, but why you always choose to speak so confidently om something you know nothing about is beyond me.

xylena · December 18

Artisian0001 wrote: »

why you always choose to speak so confidently om something you know nothing about is beyond me

Who is this mythical 4 man group pushing top tier 12 mans off siege? You?

Hey, if someone from Adrestia or whoever wants to admit that their top tier 12 man gets pushed off a ram by 4 guys, I guess I could admit I lost a forum argument.

Artisian0001 · December 18

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

why you always choose to speak so confidently om something you know nothing about is beyond me

Who is this mythical 4 man group pushing top tier 12 mans off siege? You?

Hey, if someone from Adrestia or whoever wants to admit that their top tier 12 man gets pushed off a ram by 4 guys, I guess I could admit I lost a forum argument.

I'm 100% sure @YandereGirlfriend would agree and say the exact same thing I have said and he has played against Adrestia plenty of times. There is no "mythical" 4 man group. Oils are extremely overpowered. 3 people rotating oils with 1 other person shooting scatter, meatbag, or a lancer just like was stated prior would push them off.

If so much as 1 other person decided to come in with a negate bomb while under this oil pressure they could very easily kill members and make them completely give up on the keep. I would be happy to provide a screenshot of a DM between the lead of Adrestia if you want me to ask them the question, but I feel you will just move the goalpost afterward.

xylena · December 18

Artisian0001 wrote: »

I'm 100% sure @YandereGirlfriend would agree and say the exact same thing I have said and he has played against Adrestia plenty of times. There is no "mythical" 4 man group.

So this is all just "in theory" and hasn't actually happened, which is why you keep asking your friend to come over and back you up. Yeah I read their post and they just kept talking about Negates which uh, negates your argument that siege is enough. If they are backing up siege with a coordinated bomb, that's just saying you counter ball groups with ball groups (we know).

Artisian0001 wrote: »

If so much as 1 other person decided to come in with a negate bomb

As I said.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

I would be happy to provide a screenshot of a DM between the lead of Adrestia if you want me to ask them the question

Do it.

Artisian0001 · December 18

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

I'm 100% sure @YandereGirlfriend would agree and say the exact same thing I have said and he has played against Adrestia plenty of times. There is no "mythical" 4 man group.

So this is all just "in theory" and hasn't actually happened, which is why you keep asking your friend to come over and back you up. Yeah I read their post and they just kept talking about Negates which uh, negates your argument that siege is enough. If they are backing up siege with a coordinated bomb, that's just saying you counter ball groups with ball groups (we know).

Artisian0001 wrote: »

If so much as 1 other person decided to come in with a negate bomb

As I said.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

I would be happy to provide a screenshot of a DM between the lead of Adrestia if you want me to ask them the question

Do it.

It doesn't negate my argument, can you try having some actual reading comprehension and engaging with what is said? You do this literally every thread you participate in. Maybe put it in a chat gpt for a summary or ask if the logic makes sense so you know what to say prior to saying it, I said, verbatim, "A 12 man group can be pushed off a door by 4 people sieging if they do it effectively, which is insane." if you add a negate on top of it from another person they will start to die. Does that make sense to you? Start engaging with the words being said, I don't even know who you are trying to respond to when you in bad faith change what was said and argue with some caricature of what I said, I can steelman everything you say and still engage with it in good faith. Of course it has happened as well, you don't even ballgroup why do you again, speak so confidently on something you know absolutely nothing about. Countering a ballgroup with a single bomb isn't another ballgroup. 4 people sieging and one negate is now a ballgroup to you? .....

StihlReign · December 18

Small comped groups and experienced tanks don't typically sit directly on Rams in GH. They climb onto the ledge and siege from there. They'll let you burn 3 Rams, by then the door is either open or a few hits with a couple of Ballistas and it's done.

If they're not doing it this way, the group is typically inexperienced, immune to damage or doesn't really care if they get in. We asked the devs to address the ledge, similar to the bridge damage immunity... ~crickets

Artisian0001 · December 18

StihlReign wrote: »

Small comped groups and experienced tanks don't typically sit directly on Rams in GH. They climb onto the ledge and siege from there. They'll let you burn 3 Rams, by then the door is either open or a few hits with a couple of Ballistas and it's done.

If they're not doing it this way, the group is typically inexperienced, immune to damage or doesn't really care if they get in. We asked the devs to address the ledge, similar to the bridge damage immunity... ~crickets

You can still be hit with siege from the ledge, this is a moot point. The vast majority of keeps have no spot where you can sit and not be hit by oils while ramming the door.

JohnRingo · December 18

Lord_Hev wrote: »

.

And well said, Hev. (just kidding brother)

Iriidius · December 18

Artisian0001 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Small comped groups and experienced tanks don't typically sit directly on Rams in GH. They climb onto the ledge and siege from there. They'll let you burn 3 Rams, by then the door is either open or a few hits with a couple of Ballistas and it's done.

If they're not doing it this way, the group is typically inexperienced, immune to damage or doesn't really care if they get in. We asked the devs to address the ledge, similar to the bridge damage immunity... ~crickets

You can still be hit with siege from the ledge, this is a moot point. The vast majority of keeps have no spot where you can sit and not be hit by oils while ramming the door.

Maybe someone manages to setup and aim a single oil to hit players at the ledge and another for other ledge which you should still be able to outheal but you definitely cant hit players at the ledge with all 6 oils you can setup around grid.
And as group in voichchat it is also possible to have half your group run into ram only when it rams and stay out the other time.
Oil might still kill solobuilds but not ballgroups in this short time.
I never saw a keep that a ballgroup couldn’t take because maingate was oiled.

Artisian0001 · December 18

Iriidius wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

Small comped groups and experienced tanks don't typically sit directly on Rams in GH. They climb onto the ledge and siege from there. They'll let you burn 3 Rams, by then the door is either open or a few hits with a couple of Ballistas and it's done.

If they're not doing it this way, the group is typically inexperienced, immune to damage or doesn't really care if they get in. We asked the devs to address the ledge, similar to the bridge damage immunity... ~crickets

You can still be hit with siege from the ledge, this is a moot point. The vast majority of keeps have no spot where you can sit and not be hit by oils while ramming the door.

Maybe someone manages to setup and aim a single oil to hit players at the ledge and another for other ledge which you should still be able to outheal but you definitely cant hit players at the ledge with all 6 oils you can setup around grid.
And as group in voichchat it is also possible to have half your group run into ram only when it rams and stay out the other time.
Oil might still kill solobuilds but not ballgroups in this short time.
I never saw a keep that a ballgroup couldn’t take because maingate was oiled.

That's great and all but just like the comments before you, you aren't addressing what's being said, and to the surprise of nobody, the framing is also awful. You can hit them with a single oil? Be realistic, it just makes your argument look weak. You can hit them with more than just one and even if it was just one, which more are possible, but even if I grant you that incorrect point, you still aren't addressing the fact that it pushes them off the door which is my exact point. This statement alone "I never saw a keep that a ballgroup couldn’t take because maingate was oiled." is a lie or you've seen a ballgroup on a ram like twice in your life. You have NEVER seen a ballgroup leave because maingate was oiled? Be realistic, this is a horrible line of conversation.

MincMincMinc · December 18

I'm sure if seige/oils was the simple answer to ballgroups there wouldn't be so many complaints about ballgroups. Seige is literally a joke now a days. You have your own problems to work on if that is what you or your group is dying to. Seige is telegraphed so easily, movement speed is nearly double what it used to be, players can literally be immune to soft cc 100% uptime. The only oils ever hitting you are ones you or your shot caller choose to stand in.

Really if I was to attribute the complaints to anything it is that zos replaced most play/counterplay core mechanics with set procs over the years. Players have to use item sets to disable core mechanics like roots and snares for example and then just worry about a select few meta gear sets that addons can detect for you. IMO having more play/counterplay mechanics enforced through the core skills or skill system is much healthier for the game than requiring people to go farm niche gear. (this doesn't drive dlc sales though) GvG was much more fun back in the day when groups actually dissected and pulled each other apart with player input. Now its more like a disjointed feeling where sets are entirely driving combat. Even having to rotate coordinate rapids isnt a thing anymore and it is replaced by snow treaders.

Honestly to boil it down further old eso felt more like a fighting game where the items and builds supplemented the actual combat system skill inputs you did. Now eso is more like a trading card game where your skills/inputs supplement your trading card set output.

SneaK · December 18

Where did ZOS post this survey originally?

I had to go to Reddit to find it.

https://t2.email.bethesda.net/r/?id=h3bb1d4f2,111412d0,11542dfe&e=dmFyPTEmdXRtX2NhbXBhaWduPUVTT19SXzIwMjVfMTJfRVNPVmVuZ2VhbmNlRmluYWxUZXN0U3VydmV5JnV0bV9tZWRpdW09ZW1haWwmdXRtX3NvdXJjZT1CZXRoZXNkYUVtYWlsTWFya2V0aW5nJnAxPTgyZWJhMzJmMmUwMTI5NjRiNmZhZTI4OGM3MDBjNTAxMDg4MGJjZTRiZmMzOWYzNmI1MjliMDViNDRjMTZiZjE&s=079lTlhbgOMs5VwRbl0ZQei0NxfiTVqEwFzAL92OGlc

Theignson · December 18

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I'm sure if seige/oils was the simple answer to ballgroups there wouldn't be so many complaints about ballgroups. Seige is literally a joke now a days. You have your own problems to work on if that is what you or your group is dying to. Seige is telegraphed so easily, movement speed is nearly double what it used to be, players can literally be immune to soft cc 100% uptime. The only oils ever hitting you are ones you or your shot caller choose to stand in.

Really if I was to attribute the complaints to anything it is that zos replaced most play/counterplay core mechanics with set procs over the years. Players have to use item sets to disable core mechanics like roots and snares for example and then just worry about a select few meta gear sets that addons can detect for you. IMO having more play/counterplay mechanics enforced through the core skills or skill system is much healthier for the game than requiring people to go farm niche gear. (this doesn't drive dlc sales though) GvG was much more fun back in the day when groups actually dissected and pulled each other apart with player input. Now its more like a disjointed feeling where sets are entirely driving combat. Even having to rotate coordinate rapids isnt a thing anymore and it is replaced by snow treaders.

Honestly to boil it down further old eso felt more like a fighting game where the items and builds supplemented the actual combat system skill inputs you did. Now eso is more like a trading card game where your skills/inputs supplement your trading card set output.

This is correct and a good summary. Ballgroups now shrug off siege. Of course they are usually very mobile in keeps, so oils are useless. Cold fire is very powerful vs pugs, but is almost completely shielded now by ballgroups. Many ballgroups don't bother to take down doors, they let pugs on their or the opposing faction do it, then they run in and start their run-around-the keep game for 45 minutes.

Proc sets ruined the game, even though I use them happily myself. Vengeance was much more like combat circa 2108 before the monstrous proc set inflation, which is why I enjoyed it.

Your graph above was completely correct. Power per added player should be a linear effect, or additive. For example, 12 pugs put together has a power of approximately 12 if they are not coordinated (ie 12x a single player). Ideally, a coordinated group should have an additive power plus a variable. Eg 12+X, X being the factor added by coordination.

But ZOS has made group power exponential, in parabolic form. So: 2= power of 2^2)= 4, 4 = 4(^2) = 16, and 12 = 12(^2) = 144. It may not be strictly exponential at 12, ie there might be a plateau as you say, and it might be multiplicative for a 12 man, eg 12x4 = a power of 48 But this explains why many 4 man groups now are hard to kill by 10 or 15 pugs. It also explains why a good 12 man can run around a keep vs 40+ pugs and never die until they jump off the wall when it's their bedtime.

Again this is why vengeance was refreshing for a while, goods groups had a small but notable advantage.

It all comes down to preference. A lot of players prefer to play in god mode with insane defense/offense, max run speed, everything at once, no balance.

Also economics plays into this, godmode sells , pay to play, as has been noted many times

MincMincMinc · December 18

Theignson wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

I'm sure if seige/oils was the simple answer to ballgroups there wouldn't be so many complaints about ballgroups. Seige is literally a joke now a days. You have your own problems to work on if that is what you or your group is dying to. Seige is telegraphed so easily, movement speed is nearly double what it used to be, players can literally be immune to soft cc 100% uptime. The only oils ever hitting you are ones you or your shot caller choose to stand in.

Really if I was to attribute the complaints to anything it is that zos replaced most play/counterplay core mechanics with set procs over the years. Players have to use item sets to disable core mechanics like roots and snares for example and then just worry about a select few meta gear sets that addons can detect for you. IMO having more play/counterplay mechanics enforced through the core skills or skill system is much healthier for the game than requiring people to go farm niche gear. (this doesn't drive dlc sales though) GvG was much more fun back in the day when groups actually dissected and pulled each other apart with player input. Now its more like a disjointed feeling where sets are entirely driving combat. Even having to rotate coordinate rapids isnt a thing anymore and it is replaced by snow treaders.

Honestly to boil it down further old eso felt more like a fighting game where the items and builds supplemented the actual combat system skill inputs you did. Now eso is more like a trading card game where your skills/inputs supplement your trading card set output.

This is correct and a good summary. Ballgroups now shrug off siege. Of course they are usually very mobile in keeps, so oils are useless. Cold fire is very powerful vs pugs, but is almost completely shielded now by ballgroups. Many ballgroups don't bother to take down doors, they let pugs on their or the opposing faction do it, then they run in and start their run-around-the keep game for 45 minutes.

Proc sets ruined the game, even though I use them happily myself. Vengeance was much more like combat circa 2108 before the monstrous proc set inflation, which is why I enjoyed it.

Your graph above was completely correct. Power per added player should be a linear effect, or additive. For example, 12 pugs put together has a power of approximately 12 if they are not coordinated (ie 12x a single player). Ideally, a coordinated group should have an additive power plus a variable. Eg 12+X, X being the factor added by coordination.

Well keep in mind its not only item sets. Over the years skills have had more passives and major/minor buffs tied to them. So its not just sets exponentially wanting you to be in a coordinated group, but more availability of major/minors also plays into the plateau effect. You know early on groups would share some minors and majors, but now you there are ways you can access all the buffs if you get a large enough group. Thus the number of people to hit this coordination plateau has risen.

Really if you just look at most of the group sets they are better than non group sets. Something like Perf Olorime gives 430wd with no downtime that goes on 12 allies == 5160wd. Yet if you try to find a solo wd proc set like briar you get 450wd with a 1/3 downtime==300wd. Or clever alch 675 with a 20/45 uptime == 300wd

The whole other complaint aspect is if we know ballgroups and aoe/hot/buff spam are performance inducing issues with the game.......why are they making all of these group sets require you to spam aoe/hot/buffs to trigger them??????

ceruulean · December 19

A group of 4 can defend a front door from a group of 12? Maybe in 2018 Cyro and Vengeance, but not GH in U48. So you have 1 player dumping oils on the door, a negate spammer and some ulti dump DPS ready to dunk on the door tanks... I can't wait for my squad to wipe out those 12 man ball groups!!!!

Lmao like you can't just netch purge oils, or just... avoid the front door and do something else, like plow a keep on a farm side wall with higher elevation so that the defense is helplessly setting up 2-3 fire ballistas that can't overcome the elevation disadvantage... Or you have a tank warden/arc cast a synergy portal and now the group bypasses the oil. Yeah. Totally. A 12 man group will be stopped by a 4 man spamming meat bags and scatter shot at the front door. Right.

So attacking team can bring ballistas, but defending team has to set a variety of clunky siege that takes a few moments to activate between them and is vulnerable to gankers... Oh now the magma shell permblock DK or the infinite tanky purge sustain necro swoops in, burns the siege that took precious time to setup, and swoops out. Oh now you can have necro DK frozen gate warden tanks. Lol cool.

Now I agree, a skilled 4 man can defend a front door from a less skilled 12 man. It's a chokepoint with defenders advantage. Maybe if the attackers are brainless enough to keep ramming the front door, they can be distracted long enough to call for reinforcements. Oh wait, GH only has a pop cap of 120, and 60 of those players are RPing somewhere else, so reinforcements will almost never come unless it's a home keep with a scroll being lit. Alright.

All I can say is, I queue into Grayhost, get the daily mission to kill 150 players, sigh because that mission will take months to complete as a solo player. Nobody dies in GH.

amiiegee · December 19

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

why you always choose to speak so confidently om something you know nothing about is beyond me

Who is this mythical 4 man group pushing top tier 12 mans off siege? You?

Hey, if someone from Adrestia or whoever wants to admit that their top tier 12 man gets pushed off a ram by 4 guys, I guess I could admit I lost a forum argument.

You really have no clue of what you are talking about its funny. I have ran with top tier ball groups and you understimate the damage coordinated siege and a little coordinated group can do.

Immortal Ball groups are a myth and people like you just feed the fear.

Cooperharley · December 19

Yes

ESO PvP is cool, but the big tie is the big battles, which are unsustainable on Grey Host. Grey Host is cool when you're all geared, but it's a nightmare for new players and impossibly frustrating to just jump into. Nothing is explained well either. Having Vengeance as a mode to quickly jump into and be on a level playing field is great. With how many builds there are in this game as a PvE person, not having to have a PvP specific loadout is really nice as is not having to deal with getting the gear.

BardokRedSnow · December 19

This conversations pretty much ran its course.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Definitely also want to chime-in that "One does not simply sit in siege..." as a ballgroup.

The debuff from oils is outlandish and it stacks with the number of oils active on a player. As such, it is not uncommon to see a powerful burst heal like Blessing of Restoration CRIT for like 800HP on a target that is sitting on a ram. Vigors, Radiating, etc. are ticking for like 100 per tick, which is basically nonexistent. You add a skilled enemy solo-bomber or a Negate on top of that and it is very easy to die. Anyone saying otherwise is peddling an uninformed take.

It IS very much true though that some factions siege better and some do it worse. This will directly affect your perception as to how "immortal" an enemy ballgroup feels. On PC-NA, for example, DC are absolutely tragic siegers and basically ignore it completely even when an enemy ballgroup shows up. DC, for the most part, also have never heard of this skill named "Negate". That makes them super easy to farm, as they are essentially uncoordinated solo players walking haplessly into obvious bombs.

Contrast that with AD who have quite effective PUG-wranglers that teach them the extremely high value of siege and of fielding Negates. Anyone who ballgroups against AD knows that it is the most difficult faction to fight because you face a huge number of Negates and that siege is the first thing to be deployed as soon as a call-out is made in their zone chat. It is very annoying but it is also very smart because it is BY FAR the best-in-slot tactic to use against ballgroups.

I do think that there is an odd sort of mentality where folk think that they are going to 1vX or bow-gank an enemy ballgroup into submission and then they tilted when that turns out not to be possible. You are simply using the wrong tool for the job. Instead go buy some oils, meatbags, and scattershots and use that at every opportunity. Then subclass Dark Magic and slot Negate and cast it when the ballgroup is under pressure from other siegers. Then tell your friends in zone to do the same.

Criminal how slept on this post is because its absolutely true lol. We on DC PCNA just aint siegers, most of us will just ignore balls and go somewhere else to fight, even if its glade and scrolls are about to be gone. If you see me doing anything around a ball its only because im guilt tripped into doing so by someone else lol because they're fighting the ball and I dont want to. If solo i straight up won't bother.

When I am forced to tho, after the first death, I go for the oil or meatbag, and the ball goes for those siegers almost immediately. They will either die getting bombed while distracted by this, or leave. But yea DC has a small man solo culture and think sieging is for pugs, not knowing that technically all of them are pugs lol. Also most dc are built to steal kills long range and treat being tanky at all the same as sieging. Its a weird mix of the most puggiest players and also the most sweaty.

AD by far are the best counter siegers for sure. EP are mostly just tanky and have the most groups soloers can swim in.