Is it time to move from class-system to proper TES freedom?

lPeacekeeperl · October 29

TES games always gave us lot of freedom in character creation in terms "play as you want"
Class system were "necessary evil" 11 years ago, since most mmo's had this class-system at that time.
But now wee see that multi-classing possible and works rather fine (well, some combos better than others, but, so was with 'solid' classes, some were better than other in specific roles/content)
So, maybe its about time to just set "class" as a preset in the beginning (like onebar setup when we create new char) and let to change everything freely(like drop all your skill lines and replace with others)?
At this moment everything lest from "class" system - some leader-boards (which lost most of meaning anyway, does it really matter who was 'base' class if you use all skill lines from 3 different 'classes'?) and "class sets", but, they already bound more to specific class-trees, rather to class itself, so there are little reason not to adjust them from being "class"sets to be "skill line"sets.

lostineternity · October 29

The game is built with class system in mind (balancing things around it, passives, sets, combat mechanics etc).
Switch to the classless system requires a total revamp of game mechanics.
It is absolutely possible, but please take in to consideration how and in what time period ZOS implemented even small features last few years.
I mean "I want to believe" but I absolutely critical about capabilities of current ZOS team to create something new and special.
I believe in the first place they need to drastically improve game engine, make it more flexible and easier to tune. Current version seems doesn't like any changes at all.

QB1 · October 30

Personally I agree I think this is the direction the game needs to go.

Castagere · October 30

The whole class system was a mistake to put in the game. Along with the choices of the race passives. It's like ZOS decided to make up their own and not follow the TES games. Subclassing is a low-down, sneaky way to go back to how it should have been. But it's still limited.

SilverBride · October 30

And what would make my alts different from each other then? What would even be the point of having alts?

lostineternity · October 30

Castagere wrote: »

The whole class system was a mistake to put in the game. Along with the choices of the race passives. It's like ZOS decided to make up their own and not follow the TES games. Subclassing is a low-down, sneaky way to go back to how it should have been. But it's still limited.

There is no subclassing in ESO, it's canonical multiclassing.

AcadianPaladin · October 30

I'm enjoying the flexibility that both subclassing and hybridization have brought. I've always urged no classes but at least things are moving in a good direction.

soelslaev · October 30

I hear you, and it sounds interesting, if, as always, it is done with quality and care. But sadly, we are now, in the real world, in the oligarchy-age of a declining empire, and the vampire majority share holders of civilization's assets are extracting as much wealth as they can from every human endeavor they can get their hands on. As a result, I do not see quality and care happening, and it is not the fault of anyone that we can effectively communicate with. The highest ESO manager and us lowly players are both victims.

But...

If we are going to fantasize about getting rid of stuff that MMOs feel they must have because of player expectations, my vote would be dungeons and trials. That is, not removal of the game elements themselves, but that they are a main focus – the idea that cranking out a 4-man dungeon and 12-man trial are some kind of required standard for the publishing of "content". These kinds of players that have this expectation, to me, are a plague. They got infected by WoW, and there is no cure. I already know there are those who would hear this idea and then sputter, "But, but, what do you think should happen in an MMO RPG?" to which I will say, "You cannot judge the world by your own limitations." Just because you cannot imagine what else there would be does not mean there isn't something. I will not give an answer to that question directly. It has to be invented and developed and then experienced to be evaluated. Nothing in your life right now, from French bread to keyboards to cotton underwear, was invented by someone who thought about it for 3 seconds and then gave up and assumed it was not possible.

JustLovely · October 30

ESO is an elder scrolls themed MMO. It's not designed to be Skyrim 2 or a solo elder scrolls game.

Why, after more than a decade, are there still people that haven't figured this out?

El_Borracho · October 30

So now subclassing is not good enough? It never ends.

Classes exist, or at least used to exist, because every class had a strength and a weakness. It was an actual decision to go with a DK over a NB or a Sorcerer. If anything, I wish this game would go back to that model instead of everything, all the time, all at once.

Mesite · October 30

I like classes as they encourage people with different ideas to play their way, with guidance from the class structure.

I play the Witcher 3 and it's just one class. Bit boring. I then play ESO and I can be a necromancer for an hour then log off and log back on as a sorcerer.

It helps with the imagination.

Especially when guards are chasing me because I summoned a ghost by accident.

Soarora · October 30

Castagere wrote: »

The whole class system was a mistake to put in the game. Along with the choices of the race passives. It's like ZOS decided to make up their own and not follow the TES games. Subclassing is a low-down, sneaky way to go back to how it should have been. But it's still limited.

Races have always had passives. Every game except Skyrim has classes. Now, to be fair, in Morrowind and Oblivion, class choice is more of what will level faster and what attributes will be higher, not a restriction of what weapons and spells you can use. This in a 1:1 copy would not work for an MMO, we see this with subclassing. Subclassing takes longer to level and that stops no one, its hardly noticable that subclassed lines take longer to level.

We cannot have Skyrim Online, people would just max out everything. Thus, early game would have to be hard due to lack of power, late game would have to be easy due to being overpowered, or the difference between having a skill line maxxed or not would have to be minimal.

In my mind, subclassing needs to either be rolled back or pushed further, just not kept where it is. My most extreme concept (in the realm of “no classes”) would be a mix of Skyrim & Blades skill tree system with the CP system. Desirable abilities (cool factor, higher damage, buffs/debuffs that are desired, etc) are high up the trees but you only have a certain amount of points (I suppose, also kind of like D&D multiclassing). This would essentially still force you into making a class if you want good skills and passives but would feel more dynamic, especially because skill trees leave room for adding way more abilities than just the handful we have now.

MasterSpatula · October 30

Always amuses me when people idea of "more Elder Scrolls-like" turns out to be one of the things about Skyrim that makes me like it less than earlier TES games.

Wup_sa · October 30

The game is already speedrunning to grave since u35 and now losing players even more since u46. Think its healthier to go way back.

Soarora · October 31

So, I've thought about this more and... there really is no "proper" TES anything. ESO could go full blown MMORPG and it'd still be a proper TES game. The real thing that keeps TES together is the lore, not the gameplay. Arena and Daggerfall are classic RPGs more similar to each other than any other game. Morrowind and Oblivion are more similar to each other than to Skyrim, though it's less of a jump between Oblivion and Skyrim than between Daggerfall and Morrowind. Castles, Blades, Legends, and the Travels games are all TES games despite being mobile yet play very differently from one another. Redguard and Battlespire are also different, with Redguard being an adventure game where you play as Cyrus and Battlespire being a dungeon crawler.

So, what even is a "proper" TES game? I think people tend to be split between Morrowind and Oblivion or Skyrim but even then, they're all pretty different from each other. Morrowind has no quest markers, little voice acting, individual armor slots, and the ability to miss your target. Oblivion has quest markers and straightforward combat like Skyrim but classes, birth signs, and leveling system like Morrowind... yet also lets you cast while holding a weapon. Skyrim has no classes, changes birth signs to mundus stones and has a completely different leveling system.

To get back to classes:
Arena - (D&D-like) Classes determine what items you can equip, if you can cast spells, how fast you level, how much health you have, and more
Daggerfall - (D&D-like) Classes determine what items you can equip, how fast you level, what your main skills are
Morrowind - ("TES" Classes) Classes determine what skills you can use to effectively level up and which skills level fastest, gives bonus to some attributes
Oblivion - ("TES" Classes) Classes determine what skills you can use to effectively level up and which skills level fastest, gives bonus to some attributes
Skyrim - (Classless) Any character can level in any way and use any item at any time
Blades - (Classless) Skill lines don't gain levels but rather you gain skill points to put in skill trees when your character levels from doing quests. Skills have character level requirements and prerequisite skills
Redguard - (Cyrus) No classes, you play as Cyrus
Battlespire - (D&D-like) Classes determine what items you can equip, how fast you level, what your main skills are
Travels: Dawnstar - (Template) Classes determine your starting gear, attributes, and race
Travels: Stormhold - (Template) Classes determine your starting gear, attributes, and race
Travels: Shadowkey - (D&D-like) Classes determine what items you can equip and if you can cast spells
Travels: Oblivion (D&D-like) Classes determine what items you can equip, you can cast spells, and your starting attributes

and of course, the Elder Scrolls Online - Classes determine a handful of the skills you get access to and mildly alter your attributes

This means 5 TES games have D&D-like classes with restrictions, 5 are somewhere in the middle, and only 2 are pure classless (I'm not counting Redguard because, again, you play as Cyrus). ESO dips into the D&D restrictions with spell exclusivity but has the freedom to use any weapon and wear any gear.

TLDR; this is a critique of how whenever this topic is brought up, at least one person makes it out like TES has never had a class system.

Subclassing feels like a mix between ESO style classes and Morrowind/Oblivion style classes. Spellcrafting OP spells no matter class in Morrowind/Oblivion I suppose is akin to having to put a random assortment of skill lines together to be effective enough for people in endgame group content in ESO.

colossalvoids · October 31

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Always amuses me when people idea of "more Elder Scrolls-like" turns out to be one of the things about Skyrim that makes me like it less than earlier TES games.

Same here.

Soarora wrote: »

The real thing that keeps TES together is the lore, not the gameplay.

... 5 TES games have D&D-like classes with restrictions, 5 are somewhere in the middle, and only 2 are pure classless (I'm not counting Redguard because, again, you play as Cyrus). ESO dips into the D&D restrictions with spell exclusivity but has the freedom to use any weapon and wear any gear.

And glad this part is already covered!

lPeacekeeperl · November 3

Soarora wrote: »

TLDR; this is a critique of how whenever this topic is brought up, at least one person makes it out like TES has never had a class system.

Fair point that's there are much more (niche) games than the well known trio (TES III - TES V)
But You (and seemingly many others) missing that even in "TES class" system of Morrowind, Oblivion, there were option to create your own class.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes Custom Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes "fill out the forms"

SilverBride · November 3

ESO isn't TES. It's based on it but it isn't the same game. It also isn't single player where what the player does doesn't affect anyone else. ESO shouldn't be expected to do things just because TES did.

BXR_Lonestar · November 4

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO isn't TES. It's based on it but it isn't the same game. It also isn't single player where what the player does doesn't affect anyone else. ESO shouldn't be expected to do things just because TES did.

Precisely this. ESO is NOT a TES game. It is an MMO that takes place in the same universe. Many things are NOT the same in ESO as they are in TES precisely for that reason. You lose some of the depth that you get with a traditional TES game in order to have the ability to wander the world and play with friends.

Unfortunately, the whole subclassing thing is now out of the bag and balance has gone to the wind, which I think is a step in the wrong direction. An MMO needs balance because your play effects the play of others, even if it is just in PVE. I would love to see them roll back subclassing, but I don't think that is going to happen any time soon.

dwolfgheist · December 8

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO isn't TES. It's based on it but it isn't the same game. It also isn't single player where what the player does doesn't affect anyone else. ESO shouldn't be expected to do things just because TES did.

even so, the key differences between players could be their weapon choice rather than class for the role they wish to fulfill. Don't expect your abilities to do big heals if you are using a mace vs don't expect high dmg numbers with a staff or shield. (This is a mere example, don't take it literally).
Besides technically you can use only none class based skills, it's just terrible to do so atm because of how much impact class passives currently have

YandereGirlfriend · December 8

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ESO isn't TES. It's based on it but it isn't the same game. It also isn't single player where what the player does doesn't affect anyone else. ESO shouldn't be expected to do things just because TES did.

Precisely this. ESO is NOT a TES game. It is an MMO that takes place in the same universe. Many things are NOT the same in ESO as they are in TES precisely for that reason. You lose some of the depth that you get with a traditional TES game in order to have the ability to wander the world and play with friends.

Unfortunately, the whole subclassing thing is now out of the bag and balance has gone to the wind, which I think is a step in the wrong direction. An MMO needs balance because your play effects the play of others, even if it is just in PVE. I would love to see them roll back subclassing, but I don't think that is going to happen any time soon.

The game was never balanced even with strict classes.

Easy example is Arcanists dominating PvE for years before subclassing was ever a thing. Now it's almost 2026 and... Arcanists are still dominating PvE. What's old is new again. The more things change the more they stay the same. Nostalgia for the past is simply rose-colored glasses.

The through-line is balance and literally nothing else. With better, more thoughtful balance, all things are possible. Without it, we remain trapped in the time loop.

MincMincMinc · 3:02PM

SilverBride wrote: »

And what would make my alts different from each other then? What would even be the point of having alts?

Thats the best part, there is no point.

Memes aside, with subclassing zos already changed the game to a skill line based game instead of a class. However they still have not been balancing as if it is a skill line based game. We will see with the upcoming "class" reworks.....which so far do not sound like they have given up on balancing based on individual skill lines like subclassing requires.